Ten representative English folk songs?

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 02:01 PM

Benjamin Zepheniah's dub poetry version of Tam Lyn on the new Imagined Village CD is a good example of that, Greg.

Peace out.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: GUEST,Crazy_Man_Michael
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 02:46 PM

Maria Marten.

I have in mind the Shirley Collins and The Albion Country Band version, which ends with the recording of a horse and cart rolling over a stone of gravel road..indicating the murderers last ride...very creepy indeed

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 05:42 PM

It is that good, but I had to share it with the rappers, they didn't know about it. Their rapping was that good too, but they had to share that with me too. None of us know everything, we know a bit, we can try to find out the rest.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 08:05 PM

And, yeah, like, rappers are really into Tom Paxton.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 02:32 AM

Oh Snail, how sweet! Someone who implies that there should be mutual respect - from traditionalistas (the provisional wing of the traditional folksong movement reckon anybody who wasn't born following the plough and harpooning whales hasn't got much to tell us about anything - certaily shouldn't be allowed to call themselves traditional singers!) to the contemporary school of folk music.

Know ye not that Tom Paxton and his ilk are snigger snogger whining navel contemplating self indulgent bores - a minus quantity on the great account ledger of the tradition.

That's why its okay for Jack Hudson (the neatest guitar picker, most awesome voice, who has lived his life for the folk club scene) to be entering his his 7th decade and be completely unbooked at any major festivals in his native midlands and his songs remain unplayed on even the local radio.

Actually theres no room for Jack, all the platforms that his seniority should entitle him to, are taken up by young whippersnappers who've just learned how spell DADGAD.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Roberto
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 03:19 AM

My team, complete with reserves:
1.        Australia
2.        Banks of the Nile
3.        The Blacksmith / Our Captain Calls
4.        Barbara Allen
5.        Farewell Charming Nancy (Farewell Nancy)
6.        Geordie
7.        The Gypsy Laddie (English versions)
8.        John Barleycorn
9.        The Jolly Waggonner
10.        Off to Sea Once More
11.        Polly on the Shore (The Valiant Sailor)
12.        Rambleaway
13.        Ratcliffe Highway
14.        Robin Hood and the Pedlar
15.        Seventeen Come Sunday (As I Roved Out)
16.        Spanish Ladies
17.        The Trees They Do Grow High
18.        The Unfortunate Rake
19.        The Unquiet Grave
20.        Ye Mar'ners All

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Roberto
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 03:28 AM

I had left out Henry Martyn and the Outlandish Knight (and many others I'd like to include):
1.        Australia
2.        Banks of the Nile
3.        The Blacksmith / Our Captain Calls
4.        Barbara Allen
5.        Farewell Charming Nancy (Farewell Nancy)
6.        The Gypsy Laddie (English versions)
7.        Henry Martyn
8.        John Barleycorn
9.        The Jolly Waggonner
10.        Lady Isabel and the Elf Knight (Outllandish Knight)
11.        Off to Sea Once More
12.        Polly on the Shore (The Valiant Sailor)
13.        Rambleaway
14.        Robin Hood and the Pedlar
15.        Seventeen Come Sunday (As I Roved Out)
16.        Spanish Ladies
17.        The Trees They Do Grow High
18.        The Unfortunate Rake
19.        The Unquiet Grave
20.        Ye Mar'ners All

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Marje
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 05:02 AM

I've enjoyed this thread, and am appreciating being reminded of the immense richness and variety of English song.

WLD, I take your point that traditional songs are often done badly, but I've also heard Tom Paxton etc done badly. Maybe the difference is that some singers seem to think that doing a traditional song badly is somehow authentic and that makes it OK. I know you understand as well as I do how wrong they are.

It doesn't mean that Just as the Tide was Flowing is a worse song, simply that it isn't as easy to make a good job of as many people think. We could all sit around singing Yellow Submarine and it would sound OK, but the lowest-common-denominator songs aren't the best, even if they are the easiest.

Why should we dumb down our traditional songs? It may require a bit of commitment and work to learn to sing them well, but that's because many of them are wonderful songs.

If I had the chance to hear, say, Dick's list of ten songs all performed well at a local club or concert, I'd think myself lucky.

Marje

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 07:50 AM

No offense weelittledrummer, but after what you just wrote, what are you doing on here? Freedom of speech, of course, but traditional music does not belong as a museum piece, that's exactly where it was going in some places in the 50's, thank God it didn't succeed! And I can take that approach without even including the folk rock approach, which made it more palatable for some. You appreciate someone sloshing their way through a Beatles song more than a 15 year old singing The Elfin Knight that they learned from a Kate Rusby record? Well, fine if thats what you want, but I want to listen to that 15 year old, ask them why the song is interesting to them, ask them how they heard traditional music the first time, and what are you going to sing next! Just because you don't like apparantly most traditional singers out there personally, don't condemn a tradition that is still surviving thank you very much by people born after the internets invention, much less the plough and harpoon. Honestly! Maybe we should all follow your lead, and only listen to the singers that you feel are good traditional singers, because everyone else clearly is crap. Of course, there will be no new singers afterwards, because they will all be crap by your definition, and then of course 50 years down the line they will all be dead, and you can personally install the music in the museum yourself. You know what, I'm neither a traditionalist, or a contemporary folk fan-I LIKE IT ALL, because it is perpetuating this wonderful music. I'm sorry, being good natured aside, your points just don't seem to add up. You like what you like, and I can respect that, but don't tell people on this site that their opinions are sillier than yours. I guess field recordings such as the Voice of The People series are pointless to you, because lord knows, some of those people can't sing. Maybe Fred Jordan, Sam Larner, Harry Cox and Joseph Taylor should have formed a group together to compete with The Beatles.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 10:02 AM

weelittledrummer

Oh Snail, how sweet!

Didn't understand a word of that.

You imply that because rappers need to be told about traditonal music it can't count for much. My point was that they probably don't know much about Tom Paxton either (just not their territory) so the same should apply to him. Are they that keen on Jack Hudson either?

Just had a listen to him on Woven Wheat Whispers. If he comes from the Midlands, why does he sing with an American accent?

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 10:11 AM

WLD. Thank you for actauallyingwhat you like at last, instead of perpetually attacking folk song: a strange preoccupation on a folk forum.I will go forthwith and have a listen to Jack Hudson. You seem to think it proves a point that on the rapper project had to sing old songs to rappers,and they had to rap to us. Well,of course that's how it was, and good fun too. I've never heard of Jack Hudson either, but now I have. Isn't telling me that, and me acting on the information, a bit more sensible than bad-tempered continuous sniping at those who sing trad songs?

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: stallion
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 11:25 AM

got to get off Nelson

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: GUEST,Mr. Norrell
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 01:19 PM

:Maybe Fred Jordan, Sam Larner, Harry Cox and Joseph Taylor should have formed a group together to compete with The Beatles:

well there was this folk "supergroup"


Bob Hart, Percy Webb, Ernest Austin, Flash Company. Topic 12 TS 243. Stereo/Mono. Notes by Mike Yates. London, Topic Records Ltd., 1974

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: GUEST,Thanks Mr Norell
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 01:25 PM

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: GUEST,irishenglish
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 01:34 PM

Oops, something happened to my post, so I'll retype it. Thanks for that, I love Bob Hart! One of my absolute favorites as well is Johnny Doughty. But that would be a great album in my book!
Cheers, Thanks Mr Norell!

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: GUEST,Mr. Norrell
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 01:44 PM

Musical Traditions Records has a 2CD set by Bob Hart, called A Broadside
reviews and such can be found here


Bob Hart: A Broadside

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 05 Oct 07 - 07:21 AM

Well, kids, here is my penny-ha'porth :

Searching for Lambs ; (was it Tony Rose's version which was accompanied on the bowed psaltery ?)

Banks of the Sweet Primeroses (Martin Carthy's version, for preference) :


Grasmere Hunt Song ;

John Barleycorn (any version you like !)

Bedfordshire May Day Carol ;

Lord Thomas and Fair Eleanor ;

Cherry Tree Carol ;

All Bound to Go (Heave away, my Johnnie - preferably, Louis Killen's version) ;

Plains of Waterloo ;

Fhir a Bhata - well, fuck me, that one is Scottish.

This is an observation about Ewan McColl, and not a 'pop', before the Fan Club takes the steel to the gelding knife. It follows from the previous posting as to Ewan's take on a song having magickal overtones.

I seem to remember that Ewan and Peggy sang a song to the tune used later by Martin Carthy for 'Prince Heathen', the chorus, as well as I can remember went something like

Leeze to me and thou and a'
And Madam, will ye do ?
The seal of me is abrickee
Fair Maiden, and for you.

which Ewan said (MSG, Manchester, late 1960s or early 1970s) was

a breakdown of a Druidic chant.

Now, has anyone any idea on this ? Perhaps you, Jim Carroll, as one who was close to Ewan and Peggy ?

Mind you, there was more bollocks than enough talked about magick in song, in those days, and as Witch and Templar, I should know.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Oct 07 - 07:26 AM

Bryn Pugh: yes Tony Rose definitely used bowed psaltery to good effect on Searching for Lambs.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: the button
Date: 05 Oct 07 - 08:04 AM

Military transvestism: Little drummer girl (Lal & Norma W)

Military derring-do: Brave Wolfe (The Watersons)

Booze: Good ale (version on "Come write me down")

Tragedy & death: Lizzie Wan (Dave Burland)(might be Scots, but what the hey?)

Ritual: Pace-egging song (the version off that old Lancashire compilation that I've only got on vinyl & haven't heard for years)

Religious: Shepherds arise (Young Tradition)

Hard-luck stories: Christ, where to start with this one? Unfortunate lass (version on "A true hearted girl")

Humour: Wensleydale Lad (Mike Waterson)

Foxhunting: Reynard the Fox (Martin Carthy)

Not a folk song but should be: Big steamers (Peter Bellamy)

English culture & society in a nutshell.

*emigrates*

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: oggie
Date: 05 Oct 07 - 12:26 PM

Two points that interest me in this thread. One is the lack of industrial folksong, most nominations seem to come from the "rural idyll" end of the spectrum. Second, is that the word "traditional" seems to have been inserted by default into the lists.

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Marje
Date: 05 Oct 07 - 01:03 PM

Oggie - the original poster asked for nominations for specifically English folk songs, and also (ideally) pre-20th century. To many people, an English folk song is a traditional one, and if you're going to exclude modern compositions, most of the "folk" that's left and worth considering is traditional.

You're right that there don't seem to be many industrial songs. I'd say this is probably because on the whole the songs of industry, however worthy their sentiments, aren't always as appealing to those not engaged in that specific occupation, whereas rural matters and settings tend to have a more general appeal.

But I'm happy to be proved worng on any of the above: can you (or anyone) suggest:
1) A pre-20th century English folk song that's not traditional, or
2) an industrial song
- it goes without saying that the songs have to be worth including.

Marje

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: GUEST,Mr. Norrell
Date: 05 Oct 07 - 01:19 PM

To correct the lack of industrial folk song.....

The Iron Muse: a panorama of industrial folk music
Topic Records 12T86 1963. My vinyl copy of this is very well worn.

and this as well maybe of interest.
The Bold Navigators: the story of England's canals in song
issuded in 1975 on Tradition Records. re-issued in 1993 on Fellside Records

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: GUEST,Mr. Norrell
Date: 05 Oct 07 - 01:31 PM

:The claimed word "representive" is not listed in either OED or Merriam-Webster:

I checked several other online dictionaries and I got the same reply "no such word in this dictionary"
checked my hard copy OED...it isn't there either....

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: Jonathan Strange
Date: 05 Oct 07 - 01:37 PM

I think you'll find it comes immediately after the word 'rat' Mr. Norrell

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: GUEST,theleveller
Date: 05 Oct 07 - 02:10 PM

Richard Bridge said:

Cowdenowes (Yorkshire, not Scotland!!)

I must admit, I've never heard of a Cowdenowes in Yorkshire. The only one I know is in the Scottish Borders, hence The Broom of Cowdenowes. Could still be classed as an English song though as the lassie singing it has been taken away from her homeland (presumably to England): 'Fain would I be in my ain country, to milk my daddy's ewes'.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: the button
Date: 05 Oct 07 - 10:12 PM

Clearly "Cowdenowes" is a corruption of "Howden now." And Howden's definitely in Yorkshire. ;-)

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 06:35 AM

Re the Bold Navigators and industrial songs.The English canal world, as far as I know, has always been singularly lacking in traditional song about itself. Plenty of singers,step dancers, melodeons and fiddles to be sure on the boats, and plenty of people also wrote songs to celebrate the opening of certain canals, etc etc.But I don't think they ever caught on much with the boaties. Emma Vickers(Burscough, Lancs) had one "The Cruise of the Calibar", but I have a feeling that songs like that were the exceptions that proved the rule.I expect there always were a few songs coming on line, but they would be socially local, and ephemeral.
   I'd love to hear different, and be proved wrong. I'm a canal man myself, and would relish a few more old songs to sing. But the fact is, 99% of the songs about canals I hear at jovial boatie get-togethers are recent Ye Old Days stuff written by modern leisure or residential boaties, rather than passed on by the old working boaties.

Subject: RE: Ten representative English folk songs?
From: oggie
Date: 06 Oct 07 - 04:13 PM

Industrial songs? Where to begin, Poverty Knock?(Pete Coe's arrangement using the minor chords is great), Rap te Bank? Four(Poor) Loom Weaver?

Pre 20th Century "Folksongs with known author". Off the top of my head most of Tommy Armstrong's output (1848-1919) so, for example "Oakey Strike Evictions"

All the best

Steve