Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 01:32 PM

Thanks be that there were only scrub oak (a nasty, invasive scrub) near my birthplace, hence none of these wild English stories. Our trees were pine, spruce, aspen and cottonwood. Oak was brought in as flooring, furniture or coffins. The last is pointed to by a rhyme that we used to sing as children:

Oh, we chopped down that old oak tree
And tuk it away to the mill
To make a coffin so fine
For that old dawg of mine
Oh, they chopped down that old oak tree.

Lots of stories instead about the big cottonwoods along the rivers and arroyos. La Llorona wailed as she wandered through them at night. Outlaws hid there. The big cats from the mountains came down the washes at night and ate children who played there after dark. They were the site of the ultimate 'frontier justice'.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 02:20 PM

Daylia, if you want the subtext discussion to stop, then cease giving with one hand and taking with the other. A close reading would have indicated that if I responded, I'm at work. But you'd try the patience of a saint, Robin Hood or not, with the continual picking at the remarks of Mudcatters who don't meet your approval.

Your "wink" symbol doesn't fool anyone into thinking that it is meant to smooth over the barb in your words. Getting the last word isn't going to happen when the ointment you use to sooth your verbal pricks is filled with itching powder. They're just begging to be scratched. So if I respond testily when providing a clarification or correction, don't suggest that I don't have sense of humor then post links to define jokes. I have a fine sense of humor when there is something that is really meant to be laughed at, and I can deliver puns that will zing into the stratosphere over your head.

This thread appears to have been plagued by Oak Wilt.

The following opinion has great value and merit and given enough time, the post from the fellow at the feltwellnorfolk.freeserve site may have equal credibility. It has to stand a test of time (and in this case, it also passed a peer review). I picked the following up via JSTOR, an academic database. It came up on a search for "Oak Trees" so somewhere in the article is a discussion of Oaks, but I'm not going to read for it right now. From the Journal of the Royal Geographical Society of London

PAPERS READ


Before The


ROYAL GEOGRAPHICAL SOCIETY.





I.-Notes of a Journey through Tezas and New Mexico, in the Years 1841 and 1842. By THOMAS FALCONER, Esq., of the Honourable Society of Lincoln's Inn.



IN the following notes it is proposed to give the outline of a journey through Texas and New Mexico. They have no claim to scientific accuracy, for most of my papers, as well as those of my companions, especially some containing an estimate of each day's journey, and the bearings of the course followed, were, together with a collection of shells and minerals which I had made, taken possession of, with the baggae of my party, by the Mexican authorities in New Mexico. All that can be recorded is the general characteristics and condition of the country traversed, as indicatjng the peculiarities of some districts which may deserve examination when the pending contest between Texas and Mexico shall terminate, and a more pacific disposition among the Indian tribes or the north towards strangers than prevails at present shall permit it to be made.
I left Galveston for Houston March 12., 1841, in a steamer drawing about three and a half feet or water. The wind had been blowing hard, and "had blown the water out of the bay," so that we were unable to cross Red Fish Bar, on the N. of Galveston Bay. We grounded in about three and a. quarter feet of water, and remained unable to move for upwards of twenty- four hours. On the morning of the l4th we passed Harrisburgh, situated at the side of Buffalo Bayou. . .

SRS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 03:32 PM

Falconer came to Texas in 1840. He joined the Texan-Santa Fe Expedition, and his notes appeared as an appendix to Kendall's Narrative of the Texan Santa Fe Expedition. He later served in British Guiana and Wales. Not certain what his connection is here, except that live oaks are abundant on the more clayey soils of south Texas (as opposed to pine on the more sandy soil). The sharp separation of the species mark the soil change through the city of Houston.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 03:44 PM

I expect Falconer cataloged what he found, and perhaps the plant community associations. There was a typo in my scan (had to print the GIF then scan it to Word and correct it). Should have said their "baggage" was siezed in New Mexico--perhaps it was never returned? Had to list stuff from memory? Lots of oaks in Texas that's for sure! For art of the period that includes wonderful botanical detail, have you seen the border survey by William H. Emory? Map of Texas and the countries adjacent* has wonderful etchings--more cactus than oak, but about the same period. 1844.

*full title in catalog: Map of Texas and the countries adjacent / compiled in the Bureau of the Corps of Topographical Engineers, from the best authorities, for the State Department, under the direction of J.J. Abert by W.H. Emory ; W.J. Stone, sc.

SRS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 03:59 PM

The account of Falconer, appended to Kendall's narrative, is given in some detail here: Falconer
Nothing of relevance.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 05:00 PM

I won't go read it, then. I picked this simply as an an example of how opinion can become an academic resource over time, not really meant to alter the course of the discussion. I did a quick search in JSTOR to see if something in the humanities would pop up (mostly there were scientific studies of how oaks behave in heat, with environmental stresses, how it works for a crop (cork, acorns, etc.). I didn't grow up with any oak lore to speak of; in Washington State there is very little quercus activity. One scrubby shrub type that appears in the Millersylvania area and south (in a glacial moraine/prairie setting) and I think maybe some little isolated population of some sort in the San Juans?

Trees with a lot of cultural lore up there are the Western Red Cedar (Thuja plicata) and commercial importance like the Douglas fir (Pseudosuga menziesii). In Eastern Washington, the Ponderosa Pine (Pinus ponderosa) is the big tree on the block. And Merry Marry Men? How about the Frozen Logger! (okay, it's a bit of a stretch!

SRS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 06:12 PM

Kendall and Falconer lost everything when they were taken prisoner and sent off to Mexico. They couldn't have had much, since they had attached themselves to a trading party on its way to Santa Fe. After their capture, they endured horrific treatment, loss of men ordered executed by the sadistic Mexican officer in charge, and starvation. Once in Mexico, new officers took over and the treatment was reversed; those who had survived were fed, clothed, and allowed some freedom of movement.

Falconer is worth a footnote here in Canada because he adjudicated the Canada-New Brunswick boundary. I think it was less than 20 years later that the two joined in Confederation.

Yep, ponderosa pine is our big tree, commercially as well, all the way from the piney woods of Texas to Alberta, and, as you say, eastern Washington, etc.

This thread supposed to be about oaks? Okey-dokey. Here in southern Alberta, the parts in climatic zone three, the burr oak will grow; it has been used by Calgary Parks Dept. on a few streets. Mighty slow-growing, though. I sometimes miss the live oaks of Texas- spent time under them doing assignments (and dozing) when I was in school there.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Gareth
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 07:03 PM

To confuse matters even further -
"Hearts of Oak, are are ships,
Jolly Tars are our men."

Tho' Gunthur Prien (deceased) and U47 might disagree.

Gareth

A Virtual Pint in the "Royal Oak", Ystrad Mynach to any non UK 'Catter who can interpret that reference.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: LadyJean
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 12:40 AM

With regards to Robin Hood; For my sins! I produced three medieval Robin Hood plays. Robin of the dramas was nothing like the charming hero of my girlhood. He was a guy who hung out in the woods and picked fights, which he generally won. No robbing rich, no giving to the poor. Blessedly we didn't find out we had the bowdlerized version of "Robin Hood And The Monk" until our last rehearsal. Friar Tuck ends the play by reciting a naughty little rhyme about Maid Marian. We were fed up with the girl who played the role, but Friar Tuck wasn't what you'd call a quick study.
Beatrix Potter wrote a story called "The Fairy In The Oak", which begins with the country proverb, "Fairy folks is in old oaks."
Don't the Brits celebrate Oak Apple Day, in honor of King Charles' escape? I remember a song from John Roberts and Tony Barrand's album or spring carols, "Now we do bring you the royal branch of oak. God bless our king and queen and all the royal folk."

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 10:31 AM

" Don't the Brits celebrate Oak Apple Day, in honor of King Charles' escape?"

LadyJean, at Gareth's promptings I've been doing a bit of research on Charles II's escape from the Roundheads. You might be interested in this article about Oak Apple Day :


"Monarchists celebrate on 29th May

Charles II's escaped from the Roundheads on 6th September 1651. In parts of England, people still commemorate the restoration of the monarchy by wearing sprigs of oak in memory of the time when the king hid in an oak tree following the Battle of Worcester.

Thanks to the protection of this tree in the grounds of Boscobel Hall, Staffordshire, Charles was eventually crowned king of Great Britain and Ireland on 29th May 1660; ...

The wearing of a sprig of oak on the anniversary of Charles' crowning showed that a person was loyal to the restored king. Those who refused to wear an oak-sprig were often set upon, and children would challenge others to show their sprig or have their bottoms pinched. Consequently, this day became known as Pinch-Bum-Day. In parts of England where oak-apples are known as shick-shacks, the day is also known as Shick-Shack Day. It is also likely that the royal association conceals a pagan tradition of tree worship."



:>) Pinch Bum Day! I just love those oh-so-English 'handles', like Rev. Daubeney's Feltwell parish. Do you suppose it was named thus because people felt well when passing by that venerable oak on Oak St? (tongue planted firmly in cheek!)

To take you across the pond for a moment, this article from The Austin Chronicle about the plight of a certain "sacred oak" in Enchanted Rock State Natural Area (Texas) is quite interesting, if a little dated. This tree sits atop Enchanted Rock, said to be a traditional 'sacred mountain' of the local native peoples. Some claim that it is the tree Black Elk spoke of in his apocalyptic visions, and that it's present diseased state (it's been mysteriously losing it's foliage for a few years) is indicative of the approaching 'end of the age'. Others say it's been hit with oak wilt like many other Texas oaks in recent years [sheesh, is 'God' just checking out of Texas then? ;>)   ]. The argument against the latter is that oak wilt is spread via the roots of the trees, and this solitary tree grows on a rock.

In any case, the ailing tree and the local legends surrounding it were brought to the attention of the public by one Ira Kennedy, a local historian and folklorist. At the time of the article in the Austin Chronicle, it had been receiving much attention, people climbing the mountain with buckets of water to try to save it etc.

I'm wondering if the tree is still alive today?

There's more about Black Elk's vision, Ira Kennedy and the debate surrounding this 'sacred oak' at this link, the Tree of Life. Sorry I couldn't find anything more recent about it.

daylia

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: *daylia*
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 10:50 AM

oops, I just re-read the final messages on the Tree of Life page and realized that the tree is dead. Sorry bout that!

daylia

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 09:52 PM

Bill Black Eagle, a modern living person, is the informant named in the Austin Chronicle, NOT (Nicholas) Black Elk. Let's not get sloppy and go astray by placing Black Elk (as Neihardt presented his story) on a visit to Texas and climbing Enchanted Rock. It just didn't happen!

SRS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 11:12 PM

Nicholas Black Elk died in 1950. His story is told in Neihardt, J. G. ed., 1961, "Black Elk Speaks, Being the Life Story of a Holy Man of the Oglala Sioux. Univ. Nebraska Press. A new edition was put out in 2000, $14.95 in paperback ($50 cloth).

The age of the tree seems to be controversial; taking a bore for tree ring analysis could easily settle that, and would provide a history of local wet-dry cycles during its lifetime. The tree certainly was in a precarious location. Its 'sacredness' might be 'new age.'

I told a lie in my last post. Pines in East Texas, and in southern Alberta, are not of the Ponderosa species. My mind was not in gear when I wrote that, extending ponderosa's range considerably.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 11 Jun 03 - 11:22 PM

This nursery web site provides information on live oaks in the Texas Hill Country and on oak wilt. The lead picture is of a magnificant live oak. Hill Country oaks

There are good pictures also if you scroll down to the end of the article.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 03:24 PM

We lived in Temple, in Central Texas, for 8 years (far too long!) and used to visit Mother Neff State Park, the first state park. They have some state record trees out there, no doubt a few of them are oaks.

One of the trees in that web site, Q, is at Rio Frio. Have you been out there? It's a gorgeous county, with real interesting convergences of desert and prairie zones. And the river itself--just south of Rio Frio in Uvalde County is Garner State Park--it's so green it's like lime jello, but it's just the light, the water is cold and crystal clear. Great American Trails Company (don't know anything about them) has a nice little slide show if you have a Flash plugin.

SRS

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From:
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 05:12 PM

I'm going through some old letters (1890's or so) and I've found the Poem "The Old Oak Tree" hand written but the verses are not the same as you have. I'm trying to trace the original version and by whom it was written by. Or who can be of any help researching this. There was no name written on it but it was in my family papers. It's about a murder of a woman called "Betsy" by "Squire James McCullion" who on being exposed as the murderer commits suicide!!!

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Joybell
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 06:47 PM

Ok Guest, I was about to retrace that early request myself. I'm sure that poem is the same one as sung by two elderly sisters here in Australia. They learned it from their grandmother. I'll look it up and post the lyrics if they differ from yours. Joy

Subject: Lyrics add: Liza Wells
From: Joybell
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 10:15 PM

Here is what I think may be a variant of "The Old Oak Tree" as mentioned by Guest dgaldas. It was collected in Binalong New South Wales, Australia, by Rob Willis. It was sung for him, in 1991, by Val Turton (born 1927).

Liza Wells

Dark was the night, cold blew the wind, and heavy fell the rain
When Liza left her dear old home, to never return again.
She left her dear old mother's side, and she went out in the cold.
For she was young and sensitive and love had made her bold.

She heeded not the wind that blew, or the tempest raging o'er
She drew a mantle 'round herself, and boldly left the door.
The night passed on and the day passed on and Liza came not home
Which caused her dear old mother to say, "How can she roam alone?"

'twas in the scenery of some woods, where the owner of some land,
Squire Coleman and some of his gentlemen, were hunting with their hounds.
Over hills and down the dells all gallantly rode they
Until the hounds they all did stop beneath an old oak tree.

The hounds began to yelp and bark, and to yelp and bark did they
And all the whips those hounds did get could not drive them away.
The gentlemen they gathered 'round and they called for pick and spade
For they dug the ground and there they found the murdered mystery maid.

In her side they found a knife, and with a look of shame,
The gentlemen read on the blade young Squire Coleman's name.
"Oh gentlemen" Squire Coleman said, "My soul is fit for Hell
Oh hide me from that cold, cold corpse and the truth to you I'll tell.

I know she loved me dearly, and from me would not part
And in my selfish, wicked way I knew I'd won her heart.
She pleaded me, tormented me, tried me make her my wife
And the Devil whispered in my ear, "Why don't you take her life?"

And with that knife found in her side I pierced her snow-white breast
Oh, gentlemen", Squire Coleman said, "Why need I tell the rest?".
He knelt down by the cold, cold corpse, and with a look of pain,
He drew a pistol from his belt and fired it through his brain.

And where he died they buried him. No Christian grave got he
No marble stone to mark the place beneath that old oak tree.

                                     Joy

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Joybell
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 10:46 PM

I should note that regarding Liza Wells - the songs in the repertoire of Val Turton are mainly popular 19th century songs from America, England and Scotland.
Liza Wells has always sounded like a broadside to me but I've never been able to track it down. There are a few American murders that might fit the story - one has the girl's name as "Betsy" but the links seem a bit vague.
Liza Wells sounds rather like a "goodnight ballad" without the hanging - something Jemmy Catnach - the famous broadside printer - might have come up with on a slow day when there was no genuine news. That's my read on it, but it's just a theory. Joy

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Joybell
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 08:22 PM

Well having done more homework I see that now I have an alternate title for the Liza Wells ballad - it rightly belongs with the "Old Oak Tree" right here in the data base.
                                                   Joy

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: GUEST,GUEST,DGALDAS
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 05:47 PM

The Old Oak Tree

Dark was the night cold blew the winds and heavy fell the rain
Young betsy left her own dear home and come not back again
She left her widowed mothers side fearing not rain nor cold
Although being young and fair to roam yet love had made her bold

At half past ten that weary night beneath the old oak tree
She had promised James her own true love and with him she would be
She heeded not the drenching rains nor the howling tempest roar
But threw her cloak around her and quickly left the door

That night passed on and day break came and betsy dident come home
Wich caused her mother for to weep and wonder where she had roamed
Till at lenth this widow started out she cried in accents wild
Ill search this kingdom over or find my darling child

Three long and dreary weeks was spent in searching the country around
But their searching was of no avail young betsy was not found
And men to reach her lonely house this weak worn widow tried
Till pressed by grief she there lay down and broken hearted died

More nearer to the scene of was the owner of the ground
Young squire mccullion rode one day to hunt with all his hounds
He rode up hill he rode down dale through gallant company
Until by chance they lost the fox beneath the old oak tree

I was there the dogs began to bark to howl and snuff the clay
And all the gentlemens whips and horses couldent drive the dogs away
Till at lenth the gentlemen gathered around they yelled for pick and spade      
They dug the ground and there they found this missing mureded maid

Her breast that once was fair and white was black with wounds and blows
And from the cuts the blood did gosh and trinkle through her clothes
The grave to show the murderous work it was a horrid sight
To see the worms set through her eyes that once was blue and bright

And in her breast a knife was plunged more dismal to the sene
And on the helve the gentlemen read young james mccullions name
I done the deed mccullions cried and soul is food for hell
So hide her cold corps from my eyes and I the truth will tell

I rote a marriage promise to which I signed my name
This bein on an evil hove(?) I had ruined poor betsy fame
I own I loved young betsy with all my valiant heart
I had gained her soul victoriously which did implore my part

And every time that we would meet she would say make me your bride
But I laughed at all her tears and woes being hardened in my pride
She teased till I grew tired just as it seems to me
When the devil whispered take her life and then you will be free

The knife that did my dinner cut I plunged into her breast
And with the helve I knocked her down I need not tell the rest
And ever since that mortal hour she stands before my eyes
I think I see her bleeding ghost or hear her dying cries

Then he stooped and on the corps he cast a look of pain
He drew a pistol from his breast and fired it through his brain
He was buried where he fell on no Christian grave found he
And none were found to bless the ground beneath the old oak tree.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:56 PM

Guest, There already is a thread, 23026, Origins, The Old Oak Tree, with a version of "Betsy, The Old Oak Tree." The song also is in the DT.
Old Oak Tree: Old Oak Tree
The contents of Mudcat should be checked before posting lyrics. It also is good practice to cite sources of lyrics posted here.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 08:48 PM

Now, now, let's not get too pedantic!! Maybe 'Guest' ain't familiar with our ways... and it can save everyone a bit of ferreting around if someone posts the lyrics in the context of the thread... I've even seen Joe Offer do it!! So ner!

Have to agree about citing sources, though! ;o)

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 09:10 PM

Not pedantry, but trying to keep an already over-long thread manageable. It's easy to provide a link to a text posted elsewhere (see FAQ) and posting the same material in multiple threads makes for more, not less, "ferreting around"; especially for those of us who try to answer questions for people who aren't familiar with the use of search engines.

Subject: RE: Folklore: Oak Trees in Folklore
From: FIDDLE-4
Date: 26 Aug 04 - 08:00 AM

X:599
T:Oak Tree, The
R:reel
D:Sharon Shannon
D:Tommy Peoples
D:Frankie Gavin: Frankie Goes to Town
Z:id:hn-reel-599
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K:D
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|:fB~B2 fa^ge|fece ~f3e|cA~A2 fAeA|(3cBA ea fece|
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d2fd ~d2fd|c2ec ~c2ec|d2fd ~d2fg|gfge dcBc|
d2fd Adfd|c2ec Acec|dfaf gefd|(3Bcd ec dBAG||
"variations"
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d2fd ~d2fd|c2ec ABcA|d2fd ~d2fg|gfge dcBc|
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fiddle-4