Padstow Darkie Days

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: IanC
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 04:29 AM

Snuffy

It's traditional for mummers to sing popular songs of the day, or slightly old ones. That's pretty much it, as far as I can ascertain. Traditional is often how you behave, rather than a particular song, I think.

:-)

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Snuffy
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 08:29 AM

Ian C

So would you recommend Britney or Gareth Gates? Or Franz Ferdinand? Or J-Lo?

But presumably not Whitey who's at #67 in the UK singles Chart this week. :>)

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Cats at Work
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 09:56 AM

This wasn't started as a 'flamer' but out of concern that a part of the tradition of the UK was under investigation.
The Merrymakers removed all words such as n****r many years ago, they only black their faces or put St Pirans cross on. Curly wigs..maybe, but the red or blue ones they wear on May 1st. As for the songs, it has all been said by others, not a racialy motivated song amongst them. Darkie is a very old westcountry word meaning the dark times, roads and streets that have been here for centuries are called Darkie Lane. As others have, so rightly, said, some people have put their own interpretation on them and made it something it is not.
see you on May day.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 01 Mar 05 - 07:41 PM

The Lancashire Pace Egg traditions have specific calling on songs. Ours goes.

We actors are the best of men that ere trod English ground

We never are faint hearted our voices are full sound

We never are faint hearted but boldly tell our tale

And if in time you like our rhyme

You may give us cakes and ale.

For drink and jovial company we prize above all gold.

This easter time We act our rhyme

And drink good ale and old

There are others in similar vein but I have never heard one that uses any form of minstrel song in their play.

I am not conversant with the mumming plays of Warwickshire.

Spot

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Snuffy
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 08:38 AM

Spot,

We're looking for songs at the end of the play, not the start. Most of ours start with Father Christmas bursting in "A room, a room, a roust, a doust" or similar. We do occasionally start using a version of the pace-egging song "We're 1-2-3 jolly lads, all in one mind..." using either the tradtional tune or Villikins.

Most Warwickshire plays seem to have ended with a song, but which song? It is either unspecified or a minstrel song. We want to find what they sang before the minstrel craze.

The Cotswold Shepherd's Song is well known round here, and indeed Blockley is one of our regular performance spots, but I've never previously heard of it being adapted to Mummers' use. Which play is that? Perhaps we could do something along those lines.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: IanC
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 09:50 AM

Snuffy

As I've said, they're usually popular songs (i.e. popular with the audience). The versions collected from Nottinghamshire mention, for example '"A Farmer's Boy" and other popular songs'. "A Farmer's Boy" is circa 1830. I haven't come across a great deal of mention of songs from "The Minstrel Craze", though they'd come under the category of popular songs.

Somewhere, I have a set of 3 songs as sung after the play from one of the Notts villages. I'll try and drag it out.

:-)

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 11:58 AM

Seeing as it's Christmas how about the Wren? I'm sure you could change "12th night is the last" to "This Mumming's the last" :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 04:46 PM

Snuffy

The play is the now known as the Abram Pace Egg play. Essentially it is a composite of Lancashire Easter Pace Egg plays. Dave the Gnome has found an (almost) word for word script in a 19thC book on the Legends of lancashire (I can't remember the exact name of the book) that describes the play being done in a Manchester town centre pub. This play however is based on Christmas and even though the body of the script is almost identical , the calling on speech references Christmas

Eddie Cass writes that it "owes much to the chapbook traditions of Lancashire".

We end the play with your "we're 1-2-3 jolly boys all in one mind" etc.

Our play is only performed during the week before Easter and on Good Friday.

Sorry to all for thread creep but it's constructive thread creep.

Spot (A.K.A. Dave Wynn)

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 06:19 PM

For what it's worth:

My step-daughter is black African. She's very aware of racial attitudes in the UK, having lived here more than a decade. She has seen Bacup and other blacked-up morris sides on numerous occasions, and thoroughly enjoys them because she clearly understands the traditions and the context. Early on as a young teenager she had a long conversation with one of the Bacup guys who explained the various historical theories behind this tradition - guising to prevent being recognised by bosses in the Industrial Revolution, dancing by sweeps or miners, warding off evil spirits - and when it came to the latter she immediately said "ah yes, we paint our faces white in traditions in my country to do that". Oh and she's actually rather amused by the "Moorish dancers" theory and wants to be one - though god knows what the Ring will make of a black female morrisperson.

When she saw the cutting from the Times last week about the Padstow situation, she was astonished and thought the whole idea that the tradition could be taken as racist was ridiculous and political correctness gone crazy.

. . . for what it's worth . . .

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 06:26 PM

She should try living in the place.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 03:20 AM

I also think we sometimes need to examine whether our ignorance can be percieved as racist, albeit unintentionally.

I think we do. I also think that those who see this (ignorance or innocence) as being racist - should examine if this perception also stems from ignorance.

Somtimes it appears that more live bullets are fired at folk and practices where the cause of any possible offence to black people is largely unintentional - than are fired where the intention is overtly racist.

If the intention is for us all to move on and not turn those involved in what they may see as an innocent activity into racists - the approach to the activity in question should perhaps be proportionate and always informed?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 02:01 PM

Easy to say what someone else "should" do, eh?

Racism, BTW is not limited to what people INTEND. Yes of course it's good to know what people intend, and it's good for people to intend good things, but racism has a way of snaking its way through our cultures all on its own. One of its most pernicious characteristtics is precisely that it happens DESPITE intention-- when people's attention is off on something else. Oppression works like that.

Did anyone here among us in this discussion, for instance, MEAN to wake up this morning and mistreat someone else because of some unexamined and inaccurate impression about them? Of course not. But if we are honest, don't we do this every day to some measure, toward someone we encounter?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Rasener
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 02:38 PM

You might have a point there Susan, but I am sure most of us don't do it intentionally. I think that is where the difference is.
There is a difference between somebody who does it with pleasure versus somebody who does it unintentionally.

I shouted at my daughter tonight because she was winding me up, and I was very tired. She was in tears. I didn't do it intentionally. I apologised and we cuddled and made up. It didn't mean that I didn't love her.

There is a difference. People who are judging Folkies are misguided interfering, uninformed about the traditions. Go find somebody who is really rascist and sort them out.

It makes my blood boil.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 02:54 PM

Things may not be what is deemed currently - to be politically correct - but things deemed not to be politically correct were initially well-intentioned moves to politely address possible offence and what may become full blown racism - before they do. Being non PC and being rascist are not the same thing.

To view events like this as anything other than perhaps having some clumsy or confused aspects that may give offence to some - as possibly being racist is not helpful. When (even the local) the media suggest this or use these terms - they are being a little irresponsible.

Blacking up for guising mumers is not I repeat not Racist while dressing up as black men singing "polly wally doodle or whatever" is at best distatseful and worst Racist.

Events like Rochester Sweeps Festival look to be OK but perhaps there is not enough evidence either way for current Darkie Days. But even if the latter were as described, and I am not sure that it is, in the above quote - there are perhaps other words than distasteful and racist that could more accurately describe it. I think we would agree that it is not exactly the KKK or existing in anything like the same envirionment or culture.

For IF the troublesome 'minstrel' concept was the case - and the participants do not agree with this extreme outside view being expressed of their activities - they are more likely to dig-in and less likely to see that there may be aspects that could possibly be addressed to avoid causing offence.

There is also the view that imitation is a form of flattery. But if the intention is clearly NOT mockery - perhaps seeing it more as flattery - is the way forward.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 03:37 PM

To make a point about cross-cultural awareness (US/UK) as regards racism, here's something that might help explain why there can be such a level of concern expressed that it comes across as accusatory, especially toward you Brits--

The degree of racial violence here in the US was and sometimes still is extreme, and it has continued behind the scenes long after it seemed to no longer be considered acceptable.

A feeling-- frequently justified by developments (in the world, not here)-- has resulted that when the surface layer appears to be ambiguous, about "racial" matters, people of color are going to be hurt.

There has been such a lack, historically, of white folk owning up to what had been done and still is done, that people of color and their allies have gotten into a habit of assuming that wrong is either happening or just on the verge of happening. It's expressed as "sounds racist to me" and I am sure it feels very accusatory, but it's actually an expression of fear. "I'm scared, do I need to be?" It never quite feels safe enough to even name it as a fear. It masquerades as vigilance, but it's fear. And remember-- an often-justified fear.

When people react to that historically-justified fear by getting defensive that "we are not about that", it tends to reinforce the fear rather than reduce it.

Now, I understand that the UK is not responsible for US upsets. But we do see, here at Mudcat, quite a lot of transatlantic judgmentalism in both directions on a variety of topics, and a corresponding amount of mutual defensiveness and puzzlement.

What to do? Well, I for one would like to see a greater US awareness that British people here at Mudcat tend to be the ordinary working folk who've been held down in their own society-- not the folk who have made a fortune off the labor of others-- and that UK Mudcatters are under an onslaught in your own culture now, to be robbed of your culture by forces we here in the US cannot quite understand.

In that, UK Catters have something in common with people of color in the US-- who also were robbed of a culture. There's a wide patch of common ground there. Isn't there?

Commonalities can be harder to discover, but much more satisfying to note, than the things that tend to divide people.

I'd want to see UK folk tell us all about these traditions, and how and why they are valuable to you individually-- as a celebration, not as a defense against a perceived charge of racism. Telling us gets complicated, because reading the descriptions here, speaking just for myself-- I have NO IDEA what you're talking about! :~) I'm not even sure where to start, to form a question! :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 04:21 PM

Racism, BTW is not limited to what people INTEND

Susan, sorry but I must object. Racism is purely and simply about intent. Racism is the crime of discriminating against someone or being deliberately hurtful to them on grounds of race. That CANNOT be done unintentionaly. It can be very deep seated, almost automatic, but it is still intentional. What has happened in this and countless other cases is that the tradition has not moved with the times. Whether it should or should not is a completely different argument to whether it is racist or not.

As to I'd want to see UK folk tell us all about these traditions, and how and why they are valuable to you individually-- as a celebration, not as a defense against a perceived charge of racism. Try and liken it to your 4th of July celebrations. It celebrates your vicory over the British. It is something you have done for over 200 years. If I was to move next door to you and complain of your racism towards me every July 4th would you stop doing it? Of course not, and rightly so. It is very simple. Independance day is not racist. St Patricks day is not racist. Bastile day is not racist. Celebrating one way of life in no way shape or form degrades another. Mumming, Morris, Darkie days, Nutters et al are simply celebrating a way of life that some people wish to keep alive.


Any clearer?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 04:40 PM

DtG, yes, that is a helpful start for me, but please-- I am speaking from a good amount of experience actually working with a variety of groups on eliminating a variety of oppressions-- and it DOES operate below the level of intent. It is a form of racism when it operates that way. It is different in DEGREE from crimes of racism, but an ism is an ism is an ism, and they get buried inside us in our enculturation.

~S~

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 04:50 PM

Susan.

You wrote that:

"There has been such a lack, historically, of white folk owning up to what had been done and still is done, that people of color and their allies have gotten into a habit of assuming that wrong is either happening or just on the verge of happening. It's expressed as "sounds racist to me" and I am sure it feels very accusatory, but it's actually an expression of fear. "I'm scared, do I need to be?" It never quite feels safe enough to even name it as a fear. It masquerades as vigilance, but it's fear. And remember-- an often-justified fear."

As a person of color speaking for myself, "fear" didn't and doesnpt at all factor into my response and analysis of this tradition.
Though I appreciate your intent,if I understand you correctly, I'm not sure that your fear premise is valid for people of color and our "allies"

In this thread I wrote that I found the customs described about Afro wig wearing, faced blackened, minstrel singing folks to be offensive and insensitive..

You will note that in none of my previous posts have I ever said nor have I implied that these people were racist..I don't think they are..

And I'm not afraid.

Azizi

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:04 PM

Cornwall's race problems have put them under scrutiny. Why don't they address them instead of whinging?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:10 PM

Azizi, no, you did not say that, nor did I imply you had. I am talking about what people have shared said at a variety of workshops, etc., specifically on racim, sexism, classism, etc., in which I have participated and which I led for many years in a variety of settings. If you feel their expeience is not relvant for you, that's fine. A generalization synthesized from group input is not usually completely accurate to any one individual, nor should it be assumed to be.

Azizi, BTW-- do you agree that only crimes of intent are racism?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 09:27 PM

Susan,
I am not an expert on racism, nor do I want to be..therefore I defer to others to answer that question or speak to that issue.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: LadyJean
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 12:38 AM

In the mid seventies, when I was going to Ohio University, I saw several students in blackface for the annual Halloween orgy. They were mimicking, very crudely, African Americans. (One girl was dressed as Aunt Jemima.) The idea was to offend people. Lots of the students wore offensive costumes. One young man dressed as a prengnant nun. Another had on a trench coat, a pair of sneakers, a pair of socks, and a pair of shorts to which he had attached a large loofah sponge. He was standing in a doorway flashing people. A group of young men wore striped convict uniforms, and chanted, occasionally "We're from----Prison where men are men, women are scarce and sheep are nervous!"
As I said, the idea was to offend people.
Blackface, and the term "darkie", in the U.S. are associated with some rather unfortunate stereotypes.
I understand Harlequin's black mask was, to show that he came from the coal mines of Bergamo, Italy. Just an aside.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 02:36 AM

Perhaps we should specify the exact nature of the supposed offence and to whom? Is it just the dressing-up as black people?

I asked Mrs Shambles for her thoughts on men dressing-up as women for entertainment and on high days and holidays and if this dressing-up was offensive.

She did have a bit of a problem with the pantomime dame and the larger than life high-lighting of female stereotypes like the mother-in-law or verbal attacks upon women in general from this role. She did not seem to take offence at just the act of men dressing-up as women for a bit of fun (or any other reason).

So perhaps it really is the intent (or the percieved intent) of all of this dressing-up that is the real issue? If this is the case then those who think that particpants in traditional events like Rochester Sweeps (where there clearly is no intent to offend black people) should use some colour other than black or otherwise modify things - can think again?

If these events and the dressing-up involved - have nothing to do with race - it does not seem to be sensible to risk them out of over-sensitivity and it is not as if there are not enough real race issues for us all to address?

And even in events that may appear to be a little more questionable - perhaps the benefit of the doubt can also be given there? We should all take care and work as to not to cause offence to others but perhaps should not risk throwing the baby out with the bathwater - for no good reason.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 02:43 AM

Shambles,
How about throwing the dirty bathwater away and not the baby.

See Dave the gnome's post of 28 Feb 05 - 07:40 AM.

Azizi

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 11:53 AM

In the case of events like Rochester Sweeps - there is no dirty bathwater that needs throwing away. Or do you think there is?

There must even be some question whether there is any dirty water to throw away in Darkie Days for I think we need more information before many of us express an opinion either way. Without this information - it would be equally as bad to defend it as it is to attack it.

There would appear to be differences in these traditional events and as it would be quite wrong to read any racial aspects into events like Rochester Sweeps it would be quite wrong to risk this type of event - or are you saying that they all look the same to you?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 12:34 PM

Rochester Sweeps Festival

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: breezy
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 12:44 PM

Here are few facts and observations I have made during extensive anthropological research over 35 years of living very close to padstow

The Cornish are not racist, they are Cornish, and its not easy to get a job there unless you are and or have Cornish connections.
Immigration restrictions have been removed and border crossing only costs as you leave via the Tamar.
The Prince of Wales depends on the area for his allowance.
Padstow ,or Padstein as it known in certain circles, is a beautiful little harbour town where during the sumer evenings you can be nearly run over by the young lads as they scooter around the quayside and consume quantities of canned brew in the surrounding shelters.
This behaviour shows how well they fit the description of most towns in England as a whole.
The price of property has meant most local young people cannot afford to buy homes as more properties are bought up as holiday homes. this was always bound to cause a reaction.
The enforced decline of the fishing fleet has compounded the problem.

At the same time the people are genuine, warm and friendly and as a community they are very close and protective of their own.

Music plays a key part in their lives, its not high art, its fun, for it to be taken in any other way demonstrtes a total lack of understanding and ignorance on the part of any accuser.

When was the last time your town had a knees up? It happens most of the time in Padstow where people know and care for each other.

The best pasties at the Chough.

Music in the Red Lion and the Ship

Sometimes the London

Best Leather craft work at Bagend

Speed boats    Cyclone    well I chipped in for it.

oss oss wee oss


Tonight Graeme Knoghts's CD launch at the legion in St Albans

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 12:54 PM

Shambles, I like that witty comment
"or are you saying that they all look the same to you?"

I'm not EVEN going to go there..

Thanks for the link..It was interesting reading.

My immediate comment about using black face paint to represent chimney sweeps could be a relatively modern interpretation for an ancient custom the meaning of which may be lost in antiquity {and could have had something to do with the Moors-meaning dark skinned people.. Or it could have not had anything to do with the Moors.}

I am curious as to why a kiss from a chimney sweep was considered good luck..

I know in the United States there was a folk custom that patting the hair of a Black child [or person] was good luck..I find that custom offensive too..

But, this is not to say that that custom and getting a kiss from a black face painted child or man are in any way related [heavens forbid that there would be any promotion what so ever of interracial sexualized conduct!!-I'm sure [and I'm not being facitious at all] that this is the furthest thing from these folks minds...

Now in America, the reaction to Black faced men kissing White women would be far different.. As I'm sure you know, not that long ago Black men and Black boys were mutilated and lynched for even LOOKING at White women. I can't imagine that Americans living with such 'traditions' would tolerate the public exhibit of men or boys in Black paint kissing White girls and White women.

So yes, the history is different..

I look forward to reading more about Guising.

Azizi

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 01:13 PM

I'm not EVEN going to go there..

Very wise...........*smiles*

But you did see the irony in that remark. A judgmental approach to different races and cultures from a position of ignorance is what I hope we are all trying to get away from.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 05:34 PM

"A judgmental approach to different races and cultures from a position of ignorance is what I hope we are all trying to get away from."

Oh, is that so?"

I'm glad to hear it. But "all" is a big word.

I'm not convinced that all or even most people who guise care about the implications of some of the 'modern' additions to their ancient traditions.

And with that statement, I bid everyone on this thread so long.

And will say that I have appeciated the level of the discussion and have learned a lot also.

Peace,
Azizi

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 05:54 PM

Don't leave Azizi. You have brought clear and reasoned argument to what is not clear and often unreasonable. I don't always agree but I have listened and learned.

Spot

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 05:59 PM

Thanks Spot, I appreciate your comment.

But..okay..same as everyone else, if I have anything else that I feel compelled to say,I'll say it..

Well, actually I'll write it...

;o))


Azizi

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 06:32 PM

I'm glad to hear it. But "all" is a big word.

It is perhaps as big a word as "hope".

I'm not convinced that all or even most people who guise care about the implications of some of the 'modern' additions to their ancient traditions.

If I were to unintentionally offend someone by being 'blacked-up' as chimmney sweep or/and by playing the (modern) banjo for a rapper side - I would not be happy at causing this offence - but I would think that possibly not all the lack of understanding in this case - would be due to me.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 11:53 PM

Here's a bit of information that seems to explain why kissing a chimney sweep was considered lucky.

"A chimney sweep's lucky as lucky can be..."
Many people will be able to sing along with that song from the Walt Disney version of Mary P. Travers' "Mary Poppins," but not as many know that In Germany, Austria, Hungary, and contiguous regions, the chimney sweep is considered a particularly auspicious omen of good luck if you meet with him on New Year's Day.

The postcard shown here is inscribed in Hungarian "Boldog Ujevet" (which, according to reader Marcell Revisnyei, means "Happy New Year"). It was postally used on January 1st, 1938. It is typical of Central and Eastern European New Year's postcards in which a chimney sweep -- often a blond child -- is shown frolicking in the snow, tossing out lucky talismans by the basketful.

The imagery on this card is unusual to American eyes because the slipshod young chimney sweep is not only sprinkling the ground with four-leaf clovers, he is equally generous in his distribution of toxic red and white Amanita muscaria mushrooms. This is not as strange as it seems, however, for while the four-leaf clover is considered lucky throughout Europe and North America, the Amanita muscaria or "gluckpilz" ("lucky mushroom" in German) is deemed fortuitous in Central and Eastern Europe, where there are remnants of respect for its ancient use as a shamanic hallucinogen.

When i asked my mother Lilo Glozer, who was born in Germany, about the chimney sweep as a bringer of New Year's luck, she replied:

New Year's was not celebrated in Germany until the l7th century, according to an old book I have on German folklore, so originally, this took place on Christmas or Saint Nicholas' Day, but anyway, gifts were given on New Year's Day to people who delivered bread or did household chores that were not performed by live-in servants. In exchange, these purveyors of services often handed out little cards with a blessing or good wishes.

Meeting a chimney sweep -- called a Schornsteinfeger or Schlotfeger --at New Year's meant good luck for the year, especially if he would give you his card. However, by the time my sister and I were children, in the 1910s and 1920s, chimney sweeps were sufficiently rare that meeting one at any time of the year was considered lucky.

Chimney sweeps can also be found in the form of silver bracelet charms, small figurines, Good Luck Semi-Sweet Chocolate labels like the one shown here (which also depicts a lucky horseshoe), and even edible mid-winter gifts in which the chimney sweep's body is made of dried prunes.

Other European postcards in my collection show chimney sweeps giving people money bags, riding in toboggans with lucky pigs, and strewing about prodigious amounts of four-leaf clovers and Amanita muscaria mushrooms.

Perhaps i am fingerpainting here, but i see in this sooty New year's mushroom-bringer the folkloric remains of a shamanic Winter Solstice tradition now long lost to history. "

This article is accompanied by a photo here Luck & Chimney Sweeps

****
This is an example of how historical information found on the Internet can be used to help explain present day customs..

The photo that accompanies this article is of a white faced blond haired boy. It's interesting to note that in this article the chimney sweep was not considered lucky because of a 'sooty face' but because of the good luck charms that he distributed.

Certainly one article is not good research. But if the tradition of the chimney sweep emphasized the distribution of good luck charms more than the 'skin color' of the sweep, how did the color become more dominant as my readings thus far of the modern day customs suggests? Are there other articles that might support a belief that 'black' color itself was good luck? This would be counter to the tradition in the United States, at least, that [for instance] seeing a black cat is bad luck...But am I correct that in financial terms, 'being in the black' is good? And Europe does have Chritian traditions of Black Madonnas..[which may or may not have anything to do with this guising tradition]

In summary, as a result of reading this one article on chimney sweeps, I have a better understanding of the reasons behind the traditional custom of blackening up. The chimney sweep explanation sounds more believable to me than the disguise explanation [which as I understand it from this and other Mudcat threads is that lower class people who were going door to door begging at a particular time [New Years?]used cork to blacken their faces as a means of disguising themselves from their upper class masters. However, it seems possible to me that the black face disguise explanation/customs were grafted onto the older chimney sweep good luck traditions..

That being said, given MY history, I still have a negative gut reaction when I read about White folks with cork blackened faces froliking around the streets [especially white folks with cork blackened faces who are wearing afro wigs and singing minstrel songs].

I still think the modern day additions to these traditions [afro wig, minstrel songs] should be ditched..

I also think that people around the world [and not just Guisers]need to do a MUCH better job of researching their traditions and teaching the ancient reasons for these traditions.


Azizi

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 01:02 AM

One up for the armchair historians - thanks for the info Azizi.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 04:40 AM

I still think the modern day additions to these traditions [afro wig, minstrel songs] should be ditched..

You are entitled to your opinion and many may agree - (if or where these are a reality of a particular event - and there must sill be some doubt if these are) - but there are many other 'modern day additions' to a constantly evolving traditon - should these be ditched also?

In the good old days of the British Empire - we just accepted the whole package and did not impose our views and morality upon the customs, religions and traditions of the countries that we showed a better example to - when ruling over them. *Smiles*

Attempts to impose a different morality and religion upon a invaded culture have met with mixed success a good example is in Central and South America. The original motives for high-days and holiday celebrations tend to surface inside the imposed religions. And over time the indigenous population tend to influence the imposed celebrations until they resemble little - the original ones still taking place in the home countries.

I also think that people around the world [and not just Guisers]need to do a MUCH better job of researching their traditions and teaching the ancient reasons for these traditions.

I have fund that visiting Americans or usually very interested in the extent of UK and European traditions. Perhaps these traditions should not be tailored to meet the morality of visitors but honestly reflect those of the participants? And perhaps the participants should be permitted to get on with the celebrations and the research left to researchers and the teaching to the teachers?

The Padstow shopkeeping lady quoted - said she would not have anything to do with Darkie Days if she thought it had anything to do with racism. Perhaps those of outside should leave the alleged offences to the participants to sort out?

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 04:55 AM

Sooty and Sweep :-)

http://members.lycos.co.uk/SootyandSweep/

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 04:56 AM

As a Londoner myself - and although I cannot number a sweep as one of my many professions - many Londoners could have taken deep offence at an American (Dick Van Dyke) playing a sweep in Mary Poppins. His jolly 'cockenee' accent was head and shoulders above the many other terrible movie accents and reinforced a questionable racial stereotype.

Londoners could make a big fuss and say that the portrayal of cockney sweeps by American actors should be ditched - but this was taken as a joke.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 11:08 AM

This was posted by Terry Redmond on uk.music.folk

http://www.an-daras.com/music/m_tuneindex_p_begonewindow.htm

The following from the above site.

Begone From The Window / Gwra Mos Dyworth An Fenester Words English, Cornish, French REFERENCES
Old Cornwall Society Magazine April 1927 p 14 - 15

From singing of Jas Thomas NOTES

" This curious old Chorus is evidently the original of the darkey (*Darky)chorus:-

Go away from the window my lover my dove

Go away from the window! Don't you hear?

Come again some other night

For theres going to be a fight

And the razors will be flying in the air


This however misses the meaning of the song which is kept in an old French one sung in Burgundy:-

Qui frappe,qui frappe

Mon mari est ici

Il n`est pas a la campagne

Comme il l`avait promis-

Parle (voix d`homme)

Quest-ce que tu dis donc la ma femme

Je berce le petit mimi, je berce le petit"

(OCS April 1927) The term Darky or Darkie refers to people who black up their faces in disguise as part of Geese (pronounced geez) or guise dancing and is a tradition still extant in Padstow in 2003.

There has been recent and erroneous linking with the "Black and White minstrels" and some unfounded concerns about racist overtones. The origins of darkie day in fact go back a long way through generations of people disguising themselves so that they could get up to greater mischief back to a point in time where they may have had some significance in pagan ritual.

Whatever the background it has nothing to do with skin colour or the tradition would not have survived the vehement anti slave trade movement in Cornwall. (Merv Davey)

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 11:15 AM

I think we have the "razors in the air" song posted around here somewhere, too-- it's a fun tune, with more verses. Is it a lady singing to a visiting guiser? Why would there be a fight then?

And.... might this be where the term "geezer" comes from?

~S~

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 11:53 AM

Perhaps these traditions should not be tailored to meet the morality of visitors but honestly reflect those of the participants?

These traditions, in some places already seem to have been tailored, in a way that very much reflects the morality of the participants.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 03:08 PM

That being said, I acknowledge that I am very prone to be sceptical of assertions that 'darkie' refers to the dark days, or the only reason why black paint was used was as a disguise so that a worker's boss would not recognize him.. These seem to me to be more like contemporary, politically correct reasons for ancient customs whose original purposes may not ever be totally known-or whose members want to defray accusations [warranted or unwarranted of their insensitivity...

Yes you are sceptical - but this rather assumes that there was some form of insensitivity in the first place. I am not so sure that there is - especially when we are talking about children 'blacking-up' as a sweep! If you do something in and as part of your own culture - innocent of any intentional mockery to any other culture. Should not that innocent intent (or lack of intent to offend) first be taken by somone in a different culture at face value? If not - why not? Perhaps not being prepared to do this - is the more insensitive approach?

Should any further historical explanation given - be accepted without any sceptism unless or until some evidence for this sceptism is found or provided? It would seem clear that in your culture 'blacking-up' and the playing of banjos will automatically suggest to you only one thing. In our culture (and that includes all the British black people) - it does not mean the same thing. You seem to ignore that the practice in our culture seems to pre-date the practice in your US culture. You only seem to be prepared to tolerate our culture as long as it does not incorporate any modern aspects (especially those not to your persoanl taste, arising from your culture). When it comes to customs and traditions - I don't think that you can't really pick and choose like this or impose upon another culture - what you consider to be politically correct.   

For it should be no surprise - for what it is worth - that I am equally sceptical of judgemental insensitivity based on (an admitted) lack of knowledge - that appears to be set on set on looking for and seems determined to find offence - where there is (or may be) none and imposing a view based on this. I do not see that this sceptical approach is helpful to anyone.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 07:12 PM

This site has some information on the 'Blackface' legacy in the USA.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1919122

If you do a search - you will also get a lot of sites on the Blackface Sheep.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 05 - 07:59 PM

It seems to me that the Padstow event has been a victim, not of cultural differences or racial sensitivity, but rather of the current guidelines, which compel police to treat as racial any occurrence which is perceived as racial by persons who feel offended by it.

This, coupled with the inflammatory language of the True Brits (definitely not a joke, not the least bit funny) article, has blown a bit of harmless fun out of all proportion. The only pictorial evidence in the article is one photo, which could be any black face morris side in the world, in which one person is playing melodion.
No sign of any Uncle Tom, ar similar. Surely the reporter could have produced pictures of any offensively dressed protagonists, had there been any such.

The police presence seems to have been the trigger for this interest, and as I said, they have no latitude under present legislation. It will be interesting to see their response to what actually occurred, rather than going off at half cock, and expanding a small molehill into a rather large mountain.

I would campaign tirelessly for the instant abolition of any tradition, however old, that was genuinely racist, but I want more than one reporter with an axe to grind, and an anonymous complainant to the police, before I accept that the Padstow event falls into that category.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From:
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 03:20 PM

Hi, i've been following this issue on the Morris Dance Discussion List, which has is similar to this one. I'm cross-posting this:

I recommend reading the discussion of this subject at http://www.blackchat.co.uk/theblackforum/forum32/9073.html amongst (apparently) Carribean-African people living in England.

You may be surprised.

The reaction ranges from outrage ("I couldnt believe that this actually happens... And that the locals see nothing wrong with it. The mind boggles"), to dismay that the CRE is wasting its time ("I think this is a classic case of The CRE having no serious role or not wanting to take on serious work.")

I particularly like the positive suggestion (the only one I've seen on this issue) that "if they had any sense they would  have advertised in the VOICE subsidised coach parties for West Indians to liven up the proceedings.  Complete with stalls selling spicy JAMAICAN PATTIES"

It would be a nice gesture of good-intentions and I'm sure all parties would find it enriching if indeed the sponsors of Darkie Days invited some people of African descent to attend and bring some authentic cultural entertainment. It would be particularly interesting if they could find a Jonkannu troupe (a Carribean-African blend of mumming and African tradtions).

--Bill

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: BB
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 03:21 PM

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: BB
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 03:22 PM

Sorry about that!

It was on our local news tonight that it has been decided that 'no offence was committed'. Suggestions have been made about changes which should ensure that there are no problems in the future. What those suggestions might be was not forthcoming in the very brief report.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 03:33 PM

Hey Bill I like your idea. It sounds really great. Inclusion. I am all for that. Got something coming up in our neck of the woods for June (It's a charity event) and it would be brilliant if anybody of African descent could attend and bring some authentic cultural entertainment. It would be particularly interesting if they could find a Jonkannu troupe (a Carribean-African blend of mumming and African traditions. PM me.


Barbara, I am really glad that it seems that there isn't a case.

Lets get back to it. :-)

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From:
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 05:56 PM

Villan,

I'm afraid I've no idea where your neck of the woods is. I'm in the US, myself, so if you are in the UK, my contacts wouldn't do you much good - not that I have any for Jonkannu troupes. A couple of years ago I met a member of a troupe which had disbanded, and we had a fascinating discussion about identical features of Jonkannu and Morris/mumming: short trousers, white shirts, baldricks, bells at the knees, Christmas-play, and cadging. (Joncannu is a Christmas/Boxing Day tradition, by the way - I doubt you'd find it in June). The play characters are different - apparently based on African cultural characters/mythology - but the idea is the same: "entertain" the upper-class at Christmas-time to get some cash (to go away).

From what I've read on this, Jonkannu (there are various other spellings, including "John Canoe") has eveloved in some places such as the Bahamas into a carnival parade spectacle with elaborate costumes, and it has lost the mummers play aspect (much like the Mummers Parade in Philadelphia, PA, USA).

I suggest you contact the folks at that site I mentioned in my last post if you are looking for Carribean-African entertainment contacts in the UK.

Good luck!

--Bill

Subject: RE: Padstow Darkie Days
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 06:18 PM

Here's the website of the Bathampton Morris Men, with their Bagman, Idris Roker, who was mentioned earlier in the thread.