BS: 'Gay' parents?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 05:28 AM

Excellent post Wolfgang, though I'm not too sure how many of the "lynch mob" would understand what you say, or even wish to think in a reasoning fashion.

Reason often brings up many unpalatable truths.

To those who are pro homosexual fostering ....Just keep repeating ...Percentages...Percentages ...Percentages It will come ...I promise it will...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 06:57 AM

The word straight really doesn't have anything to do with it, it's about safe homes and the lack of them for children. Period.

And sure, Wolfgang's post is an excellent academic post...too bad it's not grounded in reality. Work in the real world of social work and foster care for half the time I have and then let's talk.

Michelle

PS. Spaw...three cheers for you....there aren't many people out there like you and the world needs many more!

PSS. Paul...EXACTLY!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 10:41 AM

"To those who are pro homosexual fostering ....Just keep repeating ...Percentages...Percentages ...Percentages It will come ...I promise it will...Ake "

When extrapolating from a single known case.... What bloody percentages?

If one astronaut abuses a child(a more exclusive group than gays, certainly), would you consider astronauts a risk?

No, you would not!

Sorry Dave and Ake,but you are demonstrating a high degree of bias against gays, no matter how you wrap it up in a cloak of concern.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 11:09 AM

Sorry Dave and Ake,but you are demonstrating a high degree of bias against gays

How so for me, Don? I cannot speak for Ake becasue I know neither him or his motives. Genuinely interested for myself though because I have repeated over and over that being gay does not mean you are likely to abuse children. I have stated on any number of occasions that gay parents can and likely will be very good parents. I have gone further and stated quite categoricaly that while a child needs both a mother and father role model it does not matter what sex that mother and father are.

The only thing I have ever shown concern for is that predjudiced people are more likely to 'pick on' the children of gay couples and the fact that authorities using positive discrimination are causing more harm than good.

Please tell me in what way does that show any degree of bias against gays.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 11:51 AM

Paul has raised a point how can we be critical of the social services system? they have such a difficult task. The applicants are so few, and the potential for harm to the children if wrong foster parent selection made so great. Regardless of gender, racial, lifestyle and other ethical questions, how can we protect the child without checks and balances?

Trying to put myself in the position of selecting a suitable foster parent and making a final selection would be very hard. I could not imagine the horror of dealing with the knowledge I put an already damaged child in the care of abusers, or into a family that is dysfunctional in any way. The very thought that I made an error in judgment would haunt me for the rest of my life. You absolutely would not want me as the judge serving sentence on you if you were the predator who used the social services to procure a victim. Mercy would not be in my vocabulary that day.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 12:25 PM

Come on Don, you are being quite unfair to Dave who has never shown any bias in any of his posts.

You are correct to say that I am against male homosexuals being allowed to foster children and if that is bias well I plead guilty.

However I am not anti-Homosexual, I believe they should be allowed to behave in which ever they choose with other consenting adults.

I mentioned in another post that any and every group of people should not be allowed to foster just because they want to.
I would be against drug users fostering, is that bias against people who use drugs? I dont think so, it is concern for the safety of the children.
I would even be in favour of removing "natural" children from people who are addicted to drugs....Is that bias?

The welfare of the children should come before anything.

There are various other groups which I feel are unsuitable to foster children, but I am not biased against any of them.
Many are struggling hard to come to terms with life....But I echo Dave's words why should we put our children at unnecessary risk .

When mentioning percentages,I was not only alluding to the recent case concerning the foster parents, but sexual abuse of young boys in general by homosexuals.
There was not long ago a huge scandal in the RC church over this.
Surely you read of it and every week we read in the papers of abuse of boys by staff in "care homes" Youth organisations ect.

Also personal memories of the attempted abuse of myself and my young friends by homosexuals, leads me to the conclusion that this form of abuse is much more common than most people care to believe....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 01:30 PM

Oh, don't worry about me, Ake, this happens a lot here. If you disagree with the policies of Israels government you are anti-semetic. If you speak out against the IRA you are anti-Irish. Heaven help you if you say you don't like Rap, Soul or Blues music...

It is far easier to brand people '...ist' or '...phobic' than it is to formulate an answer to some genuine questions or concerns. In real life shit happens. On the Mudcat it is a currency.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 02:00 PM

Yes I agree Dave and I notice since your intervention in this thread most of their posts have been more reasonable.
Even Lilyfesters screeching has become less strident.

I'm disappointed by Don T's view. Don usually talks a lot of sense, but I cant really understand why he thinks we have some alterior motive. Anyway thanks for taking a bit of the "heat" away from me...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 02:29 PM

And if you make blanket, ill-informed statements you're going to get called on it. Life on the Mudcat is tough. Tough, I tell you.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 02:37 PM

Away ye go Ebbie!!   These folk are no' tough.   Screamin' nasty words is the easy way.

Trying to reason with morons is TOUGH....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 02:52 PM

I do try to apply reason to all my opinions, with varying degrees of success, and I hate using ----ist, or ----ophobe to describe people who hold opinions that differ from mine.

However, I consider it unreasonable to generalise about groups of people on insufficient evidence, and I maintain my belief that it is unsafe to conflate the term paedophile with the term homosexual.

It's the old circular argument. "Some dogs are black,and some black dogs bite, therefore black dogs are dangerous".

As to bias, Dave, I refer you to the following, posted by you.

"That's a complete no brainer - neither. I want to put them into a completely safe environment with no un-nesessary risks at all. Why should the only choices be risky ones? Surely it's that that makes no sense isn't it? It's a bit like saying do you like your children fried or boiled! Give me a real choice and I will be happy to make it.

Cheers

DtG"

Can you tell me how this comment can be read so as not to conclude that you consider all same sex foster parents a risk to children?

Ake, those priests were paedophiles, whether the church is prepared to admit it, or not. They WERE homosexual too in the context of a situation where only boys were available. Who knows what the situation might have been, had there been any girls serving at the altar, or singing in the choir?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 03:02 PM

Wolfgang...I've only one tiny pick to make on your great post.

"For instance we still allow males as teachers though we know that the relative risk increase is very high compared to female teachers for the absolute risk increase is still low. By far, most teacher perpetrators (sexual abuse) are males but also by far most male teachers are not perpetrators.

So even a higher relative risk alone is usually not used as a basis for discrimination (in this example, of male teachers). I have seen no good argument from Ake why it should be used in this particular case (male foster couples)."

The difference Wolfgang is in the environment.
I accept that some teachers may abuse their pupils, but the risk is drastically reduced by the classroom environment and the oppertunity of the child to discuss any attempted abuse with his/her peers without the coersion of the abuser.

When a child is introduced into a very private environment under the complete control of two male abusers the risk soars dramatically.

This may seem a simplistic point to you, but I feel its an important difference ...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 03:06 PM

Those church scandles were not commited be homosexuals they were commited by PAEDOPHILES. Homosexuals are not commiting crimes against children or against nature, being in love with their own sex that is their sexual orientation. Paedophiles are commiting crimes against children & nature & are sick criminals. They are child predators. Get it straight & get it right, please, for once. Open up & admit that you are predjuice when it come to homosexuals. You are continuing the "WITCH HUNT".

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 03:25 PM

Can you tell me how this comment can be read so as not to conclude that you consider all same sex foster parents a risk to children?

No need to, Don. I do believe it to be a risk and I have made my reasons more than obvious. I think the children of single sex parents are at a higher risk of abuse from OTHER people. I do not see how from this you can infer I am anti-gay. Anti-bigot, certainly. Anti-gay, how so?

Now, perhaps you can explain to me how, out of this single statement, you chose to publicly label me biased against gay people?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 06:06 PM

I have made my response. Whether you believe my reasons or not is of little consequence but I would be grateful if you would do me the courtesy of a reply.

Many thanks in advance.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 07:37 PM

DtG,

   I know that post wasn't addressed to me but I'd like to tell you how your response comes across to me.

    As a white child (we're talking about as fair as a body can be), I had an aunt who married a black man. They had a child together. He turned out to be lighter than his father, but definately dark skinned. They lived 4 hours away in the big city and I rarely saw them except during the summers when my cousin would come stay for a week or so (ok...big holidays too). My grandmother on my Dad's side of the family would pitch a polite fit. "What will the neighbors say? Oh that poor child, what a predicament they have put him into....it just isn't fair to the child...blah, blah, blah." My cousin had a fine childhood and is now a high ranking officer in the Navy. He tells me that he wasn't picked on anymore than any other child. Sure...he got the name calling...mostly Oreo (black/white) but he maintains that other kids were singled out for other reasons as well...being fat, having pimples, being a jerk, teacher's pet and the list goes on and on as Mmario has pointed out previously. Your post has the same ring of "polite concern." Yeah, I can see your point but I don't think it's a big enough issue to not have same sex families be accepted as foster parents.

I have a friend who has 2 children with different fathers. Both men, after getting married to my friend and being Daddy for a few months, decided that they really couldn't live life as a straight man and both now actively live the life of a homosexual man. The children are 10 and 15 and all their friends know about their dads. They've been picked on some, but not like you would have it portrayed. I would also like to point out that teachers, bus drivers and other people who work with children are very quick to squash that kind of teasing...just as they are with the racist remarks. Yes, I know, kids aren't supervised 100% of the time and some hurtful things will be said...but honestly, if it weren't that, kids would find something else to tease about.

So, yeah...the "polite concern" comes off as covered up bigotry from someone who is trying to save face.

Sorry dude...not trying to be rude...but you asked and I'm doing my best to explain.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 08:35 PM

Sorry for the delay in replying, Dave, but I do occasionally have to devote some time to real life.

I've spent some time going over this thread again,and I DO have to apologise to you. Your objections have all related to the possibilities of ridicule from outside, and not to the orientation of the foster parents.

However, this does seem somewhat naive, given the vast number of reasons why children are teased by their peers.

Why would you single out this one as more serious than any of the others?

During the last fifteen years, working in a primary school, the most common cause of ridicule has been about fashion, more specifically designer trainers. Children whose parents cannot afford £80+ for a pair of Nike or Reebok trainers, which will be outgrown in two to three months, are ridiculed for being poor and ostracised when they turn up in shoes bought in the market.

Is that acceptable risk or should only the very rich be allowed to foster?

Depending on where you draw the line, the number of children in institutional care will be affected, since there is already a shortage of suitable parents, and, as I have said before many children have been abused in municipal carehomes.

In addition, by debarring same sex couples from fostering, you prevent a tiny minority from offending (maybe, but they'll find other ways) at the price of demonising the vast majority, and please don't try to tell me that you don't believe THAT will happen.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: TIA
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 08:39 PM

To Akenaton's absolutely accurate quote:

"When a child is introduced into a very private environment under the complete control of two male abusers the risk soars dramatically...",

I would add:

"When a child is introduced into a very private environment under the complete control of two female abusers the risk soars dramatically...",

and:

"When a child is introduced into a very private environment under the complete control of one femal and one male abuser the risk soars dramatically..."

Surely we are not using "abusers" as an synonym for homosexuals. Are we...?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: frogprince
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 09:27 PM

I submit that it wouldn't be unfair to paraphrase Akenaton like this:

When a child is introduced into a very private environment under the complete control of two potential abusers the risk soars dramatically, in comparison to a situation in which a child is with a potential abuser in plain view of a substantial number of other people.

The real question is still whether homosexual males are, to a significantly greater degree, potential abusers. I think it is fair to say that Akenaton believes that. Now, in all honesty, the study that Wolfgang cited suggests that there is some substance to that allegation. If it is an "academic" study, that doesn't mean it isn't based on occurrences in the "real world". But it's a long, outrageous jump from the numbers in that study to the exclusion of all gay males from foster parenthood.

Is it possible, in the "real world", to be absolutely honest and up-front with gay male foster parents as to looking into their background extra carefully, because those "percentages" are there?
It can never be done without causing some resentment, and casting some shadow of discrimination on many who don't deserve it. But even Akenaton is coming at this with a bias based in some part in unfortunate experience, not in a red-eyed homophobic rage. What is really the "real world" answer that, first and foremost, meets the needs of these poor displaced kids.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: TIA
Date: 28 Jun 06 - 10:11 PM

I agree -- "looking into their background extra carefully" should be done to all persons who will have power over or be alone with children. I get looked at very carefully every year before being allowed to volunteer at school.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 03:13 AM

Don, thanks for taking the time anyway. I must say I always find it odd that people seem to find plenty of time for posting scurrilous accusations but when asked to justify them they suddenly seem to get a 'real life':-) I guess that is just the way of the 'un'real world...

Anyhow. I accept what you say. Plenty of kids do get picked on for plenty of reasons. I was picked on because I had a Polish name in a 1950s suburban school. My parents changed our name to stop it. I know full well what I am saying is unfair as well but so is the world. I am as sure as I can be of anything that in some years time the situation will be better but until it is all I request is that consideration is given to the point I make. Why make things harder for kids than they already are? I think we will just have to agree to differ on this one. OK?

As to you Ms Lilyfester. You start of by saying you know that the post is not addressed to you. But you go ahead and answer it anyway. You then repeat your accusation of my being a bigot and compound that by suggesting I am now trying to 'save face'. You finish of by saying you don't want to be rude. Well, if that is you not being rude I would not like to hear you when you are. Or does 'rude' have a different meaning in the USA?

I will repeat once more. I am not biggoted. I am not anti-gay. I am anti-nothing but ignorance. You say I am trying to save face. May I ask for whom I am trying to look good? You possibly? Why would I do that? I do not know you. I do not know anyone who has posted on this thread personaly at all. Why on earth do you think I would try to save face with people that I do not know? Perhaps in the world of Social Services these things are important. Please let me assure you that to me they are not.

If you keep up these unfounded personal attacks on me I am afraid the thread may be closed and all the good arguments, both for and against, will be lost.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 07:39 AM

Tia dont be facitious.

Yo know very well I was discussing the difference in risk between teacher abuse and foster parent abuse...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 08:12 AM

DtG,

   It was not a personal attack. You asked how someone might see you as other than what you had posted and I answered. I'm sorry you don't like the answer.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 08:30 AM

Calling someone a bigot because they disagree with your views is not a personal attack? As in the "polite concern" comes off as covered up bigotry from someone who is trying to save face. Accusing someone of of trying to save face - an acronym for twisting what was said previously - is not a personal attack? I can see I need to get a whole new dictionary.

I do not think that I have once tried to cast doubt onto your integrity, Michelle, if I did show me where and I will apologise unreservedly. You have repeatedly answered my comments and concerns by implying I am either homophobic or have some other axe to grind. I am innocent on both counts. If there is any saving of face to be done it is by the Social Services operatives that were fooled by these evil people. I will never say that you are trying to save face for these fellow social workers. I believe you are above that. Please give me the same consideration.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 02:30 PM

As for the suffering of children caused by others, because they are being raised by gay parents, that is the fault of others. Site them not the children or the gay parents. Like the victim of a bully or a rape victim blame the predator not the victim. It helps society to bring fairness to all when you support victims instead of blaming them. And to ask the victims to differ their actions is blaming them.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jun 06 - 04:08 PM

I agreed with the bits I understood, Barry:-) I don't think anyone has blamed the victims so far. Give the good old cat box another few days and I am sure it will come though!

Michelle, Don and everyone else. I somehow managed to twist the argument so it was about me and my feelings. I was never hurt by being called names. Especialy when they are undeserved. But when I am pushed I do, all to often, push back. In this case the issue is far more important than that and I apologise to everyone working towards protecting our children for derailing the thread somewhat.

I do not think it is homophobic or bigoted to use the sensationalist headline that was used. I think it is just human nature which, like mine unfortunately, is far from perfect. Neither me nor my views are more important than anyone else or anyone elses views. Nor are they less important. What is more important that all our petty squabbles and politcal wranglings is the future of our children.

Please accept my apologies for any offence or upset I have caused anyone. I am not fishing for apologies myself either. I am neither hurt nor offended by the unjust accusations. They are as much your human nature as my defensiveness was mine.

Lets turn this about and make sure that the sensationalist headlines do eventualy stop. Not because they are forced to or because we shout them down. But because they no longer sell papers. Or get people to open threads?

Good luck ,best wishes and cheers to you all.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: John P
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 10:19 AM

Dave the Gnome,
You seem to be surprised and feeling misunderstood when people tell you that your ideas are part of the problem of discrimination against gay folks. Specifically, you seem to think you are not saying that we should take other peoples' bigotry into account when making social policy, and you seem to feel misunderstood when we tell you that's what you're doing. Here are some quotes from your posts that don't quite add up:

Nowhere in any of my posts have I suggested we should make social policy that will protect the closed world view of negatively judgmental people.

Putting them in an envornment where they are missing one of the major forces in their life and where they may become the subject of scorn or ridicule is not a good idea.

Until the majority of people accept and agree that standpoint though we cannot afford to risk moving our children from an environment with one set of problems just to put them in an environment with another.

Imagine that attitude being passed on to the foster children. "Oh, the poor little mites. Fancy them being under the care of those perverts..." Can't you just see it?

The only thing I have ever shown concern for is that predjudiced people are more likely to 'pick on' the children of gay couples . . .

Please tell me in what way does that show any degree of bias against gays.

Dave, it shows bias against gays because you are suggesting that gay homes are not good foster homes, while not suggesting that straight, single-parent, mixed-race, or religiously intolerant homes are equally not good foster homes. Why pick out the gay homes?

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 06 - 01:57 PM

John, I have apologised for hijacking the thread and going defensive when feeling threatened. If it makes you feel any happier then, yes, I do feel that {list supplied by John P} could be equaly unsuitable. It was a lot easier to talk about the subject in hand than it was to list every single possible combination. I apolgise once more for my laziness.

I was quite happy that the thread had fallen off the end of the page in the 4 days between my last post and yours. If you would care to do the same then the sensationalist 'headline' of the thread can die the death it rightly deserves.

Many thanks in advance.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:09 AM

A link posted quite a ways back, at 27 Jun 06 - 02:20 PM, was to an abstract of a report on abuse of children by homosexual parents.

Because the result reported was somewhat at variance with other information I've seen, and because the full report is not accessible to me, I took a quick look at the home page of the organization cited as the "home" for the authors. I found NOTHING but anti-homosexual literature at their home site, with some of it being obviously and blatently bigoted and abusive. (And much of it previously known.)

I must note that the cited/abstracted report indicated a study of 78 cases, including 79 homosexuals. This does imply that at least 77 of the cases studied were of marriages between male and female parents or for single parents. The abstract is unclear. AT MOST, only one case of a homosexual couple is included.

The "control:" For 78 nonhomosexual vs nonhomosexual control cases implies that all comparison cases involved male/female partnerships, with both partners involved.

Given the difficulty of single persons obtaining foster charge of children who are not biologically related, at least in my area, it is quite probable that all of the "studied" cases involved a biological parent of the child who was abused, with the assumption that the child was the product of a "normal" marriage. (A possible, plausible, but of course tentative interpretation.)

So does the report suggest more of how prevalent similar abuse is in "nominally heterosexual" couples who have not (yet?) entered a custody dispute, than it does about "single parents"? IMO - probably, but I'll reserve judgement pending additional information.

I have known, and do know of, several "homosexual partnerships" that have been stable for many years, and in which the persons involved are persons I respect, and whom I would trust to be good caretakers for children if they chose to assume that responsibility. I have known, and do know of, far more heterosexual parents who, in my opinion, are abusive (not necessarily sexually), incompetent, and should not have that responsibility.

While I have not had close association with many who have been foster parents, I do count a half-dozen friends who were raised in foster care, a couple of whom were in care long enough eventually have been adopted by their caregivers. I've seen enough of the "ritual" involved in the system to know that it is a failure-riddled and inadequate system, but also enough to offer my abject admiration for those who participate in it, either as administrators or as care-givers.

Neither the sex, nor the sexual preference of a caregiver is of significance. If "partners" are involved with the caregiver, then they are inevitably involved with the children and must also be suitably qualified, but the sex of the partner also is immaterial.

All that counts is the character and dedication of the individuals.

John

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:39 PM

My God...Dave brought this thread to a satisfactory conclusion, leaving the posts to speak for themselves. Some of you just won't let it lie and keep posting repeats of your opinions as if they were incontravertible proof.

Right up near the top, I mentioned a man who lived near me when I was a boy. All the boys who went to Primary school with me knew him as a pervert.It was not safe to be in his company alone.
This man lived in a "sham marriage" and did not even sleep in the same room as his "wife".
During the time he was in our area he fostered 12 children, 10 boys and 2 girls. On talking to some of the boys later in life, I was told that all the boys were abused in a sexual manner, but none of the girls were ever abused.
This was the only case of foster child abuse that ever came to light in our area.

Some say that the homosexuals who abused the children in UK were just one bad apple in a barrel. I might argee with this, but when you start to get bad apples in packs of four, you got to start looking very carefully at the apples.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: John P
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 10:31 AM

Geez Ake, please go away and spew your bigoted bile on someone else. So you knew a homosexual pedophile. So what? I knew a brown haired pedophile. So what? You complain about people repeating their opinions over an over again while doing it yoursef. The difference is that you don't bother to respond to the factual information, personal experience, and logic offered by others here. You just keep saying the same ignorant, unethical, stupid, bigoted, un-Christian crap over and over. If you really want this thread to die, shut up and go away. Many of us are past the point of remaining silent when faced with the civil rights travesty of our culture's treatment of gay folks.

If you keep typing bigoted comments, I'll keep telling you what a bigoted asshole you are. I know, I know, calling you names is guaranteed to make you not hear what I'm saying. But we tried being nice and responding to you as if you were a reasonable adult and it just didn't work. So . . . you're an idiot. If you don't like being called a bigot and and idiot, stop being a bigot and an idiot.

JP

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 10:38 AM

WOW! Well said!!!!

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 06:15 PM

"You just keep saying the same ignorant, unethical, stupid, bigoted, un-Christian crap over and over."

Well, well, thats quite a mouthful Mr Peekstock (as some of your friends might say)
Easily seen where you sympathies lie!   Not a word on the children abused by the paedophile, some of whom have had their lives ruined by childhood abuse, but a full post dedicated to abuse of me and defending the civil rights of homosexuals.

I hate to shatter your illusions, but homosexuals are no longer a downtrodden minority, but a vociferous section of society with a powerful voice in the media.

A powerful pressure group who punch well above their weight, forever pushing back the boundaries of common sense and decency....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 07:49 AM

"A powerful pressure group that punch well above their weight" Torally agree with you on that one Ake...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: LilyFestre
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 10:25 AM

Ake,

   Pedophiles are an abomination, I don't see anyone here saying otherwise. Nice try at twisting things though.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 12:27 PM

So a pedophile is homosexual because he preys on little boys!? Does this mean that all male abusers of little girls are heterosexuals? If you believe so, does that give you enough evidence to hate heterosexuals? It takes a certain amount of ignorance to believe that any rape of a child is a sex act, whether it's heterosexual or homosexual.

I know we believe a lot of what we hear through our lives, but we really ought to question reasons to hate others, if not everything else. Loving an adult partner and raping a child aren't even in the same universe.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 May 07 - 04:45 PM

Gay flamingo parents

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 May 07 - 05:41 PM

Neat, Wolfgang! I like it!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 May 07 - 05:44 PM

How kewl is that! Thanks, Wolfgang!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: frogprince
Date: 22 May 07 - 07:26 PM

Yeesh; two males, in fruity pink outfits...disgusting!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: GUEST,Scoville
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:06 PM

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: GUEST,Scoville
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:07 PM

Oops--sorry about the empty post.



The chicks are SO CUTE! Look at that one standing on one leg already!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: JennyO
Date: 23 May 07 - 07:07 AM

Awww - that's really sweet!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Big Phil
Date: 23 May 07 - 02:07 PM

My Bible says Adam and Eve, not Adam and Albert. A child requires a parent of each gender. End of story.......

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: MMario
Date: 23 May 07 - 02:16 PM

your bible also congratulates a man on handing his virgin daughters over to a crowd of rapists; tells of a man rewarded for being willing to kill his own son; has a man prefferring his illegitimate son by his wife's servant; condones men buying their wives from their fathers - and many many more stories.

Shall we live by *THOSE* rules? And if not, then why are *those* examples different?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 23 May 07 - 09:02 PM

My Bible says Adam and Eve, not Adam and Albert. A child requires a parent of each gender. End of story

I'm gld I don't live by your bible.

Over this past Xmas I got to see my niece & got to meet my neice's hubby to be, I'll be seeing them in San Francisco in a week or so. They just bought a house together. She's very much her own women & it's been a joy to watch her grow into an adult that any mom's would be proud, I hope my kids become as nice an adult as she has. I'd say that the credit is almost all hers but the rest goes to the 2 women that raised her. They did an excelent job & I just can't say how proud I am of them & the girl they raised. You don't need to be a bible thumper to be a good person, I've often thought that those who go through life without a bible & are decent have a much better way of living, they didn't need a life's guideline to direct them, they knew how to live by following their heart not a book & we all know which one is more reliable. The heart's not bias, doesn't condemn, won't threaten, won't start wars or kill babies & knows right & wrong when it's encountered. In the name of the bible,,,,,,,

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: JennyO
Date: 23 May 07 - 09:59 PM

How lucky for that flamingo couple, that they don't have the bible thrown at them! Sometimes I really wonder about human nature...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 May 07 - 07:34 PM

Adam and Eve? That was a truly disfunctional family, Big Phil--not one that anyone would hold up as an ideal--

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 May 07 - 07:45 PM

♪ ♪ Everything is beautiful / In its own way ♪ ♪

Subject: RE: BS: 'Gay' parents?
From: GUEST,ib48
Date: 25 May 07 - 10:08 AM

This world has gone absolutely nuts,GAY PARENTS,does anybody think just the sound of that is completely ridiculous? No wonder we have screwed up kids out there.Why the hell cant everybody just be normal,i have nothing against gays,but surely to god children should not be allowed to enter the equation.You reap what you sow.