Stealing gigs from the pro's

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:03 AM

Brendy. That's twice you've sneered at the term "moderately successful", the second time apparently out of context.   You seem to interpret the term as equal to failure.   I chose the term "moderately" to avoid overclaiming – noting that I'm aware of more successful clubs in the country. There is a spectrum in these things, as in everything.   However, the club I attend runs about one third "big" names, one third "lesser" names or new acts, and one third local interest or singers nights. It isn't always full to the gills, but it is some distance from failure. It appears to be fulfilling the need to provide a platform for established professionals and rising newcomers: though there are always more potential guests than evenings.

More generally, although a professional artist or a concert promoter has to be businesslike, a club (folk, dance, model railways or whatever) is essentially an amateur organisation run for the benefit of its members/attendees. If the finances are not run sensibly, then the club will fail, but it is not the purpose of its existence. A club is not a business. Its health is not judged by its growth rate or profit margin. Clubs can be stable for many years at a "moderate" level, if that satisfies the members/attendees.

Captain; I went to Kingston club a few years before you. Sadly, the only acts I remember are the club residents Dunedain (what happened to them?) and a visit from Martin Wyndham Reed, complete with bush-hat.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:56 AM

The Villan

It has become more of a "What the organsier should do for the pro"

I suppose that's my fault for pointing out that the gigs don't belong to the pros in the first place, they belong to the organisers who are free to give them to whoever they choose.
The only other point I've really tried to make is that, if you've done the website and the poster and the leaflets and the press hand outs, it's a bit much for the professionals to demand a guaranteed minimum to "keep us on our toes".

GUEST, Anon

I really don't think you understand how bad the situation is in some places, where I presume you never go.

Correct, I don't. There are clubs I have done floor spots at that I'll never go back to. I suggest you adopt the same policy.

I'm talking about what organisers should try to do - PERIOD. For themselves, for their clubs, for the music, AND for the pro.

I'm glad you got those in the right order except it's "for the guest" not "for the pro". Pros have no special status as far as we are concerned.

TheSnail has been so dismissive of my points, and I've been trying to get him to see beyond his current attitude.

I'm sorry, but what do you see as my current attitude and what are your objections to it? All you seem to have done so far is whinge and whine and moan about how awful club organisers are.
"what TheSnail advocates: Leave it all up to the artist to build his reputation in outer space somehow and then ride on his coat-tails." didn't do a lot to win me over to your point of view.

You're posting of 14 Nov 07 - 09:02 was amazingly patronising and showed that you have very little idea of what is involved in running a club. Try and remember that we are open at least fifty nights a year (plus other events) and your gig is just one of those.

Anyone reading your posts would be lead to believe that all clubs are awful. Only under pressure have you conceded that The Villan gets it right and that it's just possible that The Lewes Arms does as well.

Back to The Villan -

Remember, nobody owes anybody a living, its up to you to go out and get it.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 07:07 AM

Captain Birdseye

By charging 4 pounds for Tom Mcconville and David Wood ,AND 5 pounds for Cockersdale

So, by my calculations, one Cockersdale is worth 5/12 of a Tom McConville.

If I played in front of fifty people at £5 a head and was given £50 and the next week the guest played in front of fifty people at £5 a head and got payed £400 I think I would feel pretty pissed off.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 07:15 AM

Brendy

I will answer just two of your points -

What exactly is your job, then?

I'm a computer programmer.

What are the aims of your club?

From the Lewes Arms Folk Club's constitution:

LEWES ARMS FOLK CLUB RESIDENTS' COMMITTEE: Booking policy

Programming objectives

1.       To provide a programme which reflects the club's long-established interest in traditional music and song and contemporary folk music/song derived from the tradition;

2.       To provide a programme reflecting the major interests of the residents and those attending regularly in unaccompanied song, accompanied song and tunes;

3.       To provide a programme with a mix of local performers who perform bookings regularly, regional and national performers;

4.       To provide periodic opportunities for competent local performers who are not regularly booked at other clubs to perform;

5.       To provide opportunities for in-depth musical development via workshops;

6.       To apportion bookings equitably between performers as far as is possible in a situation where there are far more performers than opportunities to offer bookings;

7.       To vary formats from time to time, e.g. theme evenings, longer guest spots, while retaining a policy of offering floor singers at least one item;

8.       Where necessary to ensure that new members/visitors are able to perform floor spots by asking the residents to stand down.


From now on, I am not failing to respond, I am ignoring you.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Green Man
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 07:20 AM

Hi Hamish,

I look forward to hearing / seeing you. People like you bring a breath of fresh air in. We are not locked into paying for the services of people who are well known, we employ people who entertain and from another standpoint maintain standards.

As for stealing gigs, you can't steal something that was never owned. If there is ever a union for folk performers that makes it bad to bid for a gig then I certainly won't subscribe. Anyway most 'professionals' start out singing around clubs for nothing, just to get the exposure. It is an evolutionary thing. You take your knocks and build your repertoire and confidence, only then can you charge extortionate money for a performance :-) providing of course you can find someone who is willing to pay.

See you soon.

GM

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: GUEST, Anon
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 07:34 AM

"Anyone reading your posts would be lead to believe that all clubs are awful."

On the contrary. Please read my post at 09:02 again. I'm sorry if it came over as partonising - I had a lot to say and may not have chosen my words as carefully as I might. But I have made it clear all along that I'm only talking some clubs. You agree there are some you'd avoid - these are the places I'm talkikng about - that's obvious surely. The difference is that I don't write them off. I had hoped to encourage a debate which might help them to improve, but you taking my thoughts personally and becoming affronted, when obviously these problems don't apply at your club has taken the discussion off beam. I stand corrected re 'guests' and 'pros' - but I'd made that point myself at 05:53. "Only under pressure have you conceded that The Villan gets it right and that it's just possible that The Lewes Arms does as well." Again - not so. I cleared that up just as soon as it was raised. I also apologised at once for misunderstanding your comment, but I was not the only person to do so. It did seem as though you were supporting the attitude held by SOME organisers that it is entirely down to the artist to bring in an audience - which you have since agreed should not be the case. Enough.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Brendy
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 07:59 AM

"....but we'd get by without you far better than you'd get by without us"

That is what is commonly known as blackmail, TheSnail. (my way or the highway...)
It's also bad-heartedness.

B

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 08:18 AM

>>Although one particular Football Club has possibly outlived its usefulness<<

Hey Jim, I hope you don't mean mine :-)

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 08:41 AM

The Snail seems to have a bit of a down on guests at folk clubs asking for a guarantee against a door percentage. As there is a lot of mutual misunderstanding on this thread, I will quote exactly what he said:

'The only other point I've really tried to make is that, if you've done the website and the poster and the leaflets and the press hand outs, it's a bit much for the professionals to demand a guaranteed minimum to "keep us on our toes"'.

I would like to point out that I am going to play in January at the Lewes folk club that the Snail has mentioned he is involved in the running of. And, curiously, the organiser offered me a guarantee of £150 against 80% of the door money , an offer which I gladly accepted. So I am glad the Snail isn't actually the guy who does the bookings! And, by the way, I didn't "demand" a guarantee. What guests might do is "ask" for a guarantee: I think using that word "demand" shows an underlying hostility which is unhelpful. In my own case, I think I neither demanded nor asked, as far as I recall: the guarantee and percentage were offered to me!

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:12 AM

GUEST, Anon

When I said "I don't see why we should guarantee an artist against their failure to bring in an audience", the previous sentence was "We do our legwork. "
I was taking it for granted that organisers do all they can with limited time and resources to promote their club and their guests. You appeared to take it for granted that they do not.

Yes, I did take your "coat-tails" remark personally since it was explicitly made at me and based on your own assumptions, not anything I'd said.

In your 09:02 posting you held forth at considerable length and with great confidence about how folk clubs should be run despite admitting that you had no experience of doing so. Try running one if you think you can do it better. Several professional performers do.

Even this morning you are saying "TheSnail has been so dismissive of my points, and I've been trying to get him to see beyond his current attitude." What is it about my current attitude that you wish to change?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:40 AM

greg stephens

I would like to point out that I am going to play in January at the Lewes folk club that the Snail has mentioned he is involved in the running of.

Actually Greg, you aren't. Your performing at the Royal Oak not the Lewes Arms. Looking forward to seeing you there.

Not sure where I got the "keep us on our toes" line from. My interpretation. Sorry about that, it's been a long thread.

What you actually said -

My personal position is as I said earlier: we'll generally play for the lion's share of the door money, accompanied by a modest guarantee. The guarantee is useful, it ensures that the organisers actually do a bit of legwork, postering, press, mailouts etc. Believe me, I have encountered places that don't!

We are not one of those places. We do the work. We do not offer guarantees, at least not to long established professionals. To newbies such as Newcastle students who may have travelled a long way for an uncertain return, maybe.

We were negotiating with a National Name for one of our workshop deals. He asked for a gauranteed minimum and we said no but pointed out to him that our guests almost invariably made more than that. He turned us down. His loss and ours but if, after we had done everything we could (and our past record showed that we are pretty good at it), he had failed to draw the crowds why should we take the loss?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:42 AM

Sorry, Snail. Thought it was your club. You are very blessed in Lewes to have two!

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:58 AM

Indeed we are, both running very successfully.
I should have added that The Royal Oak isn't one of those places that fail to do their legwork either. I'm sure you will find that guaranteed minimum irrelevant.

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:59 AM

Are you lot still arguing? I've been to sleep and out to see a client.....personally I blame the others, you know the ones who aren't taking part in this discussion.

Seriously. isn't there a bigger discussion...another thread probably around how we attract more (and heaven forbid, younger) audiences to watch & play folk music?

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 12:16 PM

Now then Banjiman, get back to selling your tickets :-)

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 12:19 PM

Les,

Would you like one (or several)?

Paul

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 12:23 PM

please excuse my absence,Ihave had to spend the day mending fences,to stop my sheep escaping to the neighbours,and this evening I intend to play my concertina.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 12:29 PM

Have a nice evening Dick

Would you like loads of mine Paul LOL

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Banjiman
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 12:33 PM

Hey Les....I've promised to come to at least one of yours.

I think you should show the same commitment to "The Cause"!! :-)

If we don't see you in the Spring, we'll see you in the summer (that could almost be a song!)

Cheers

Paul

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 01:07 PM

You never know Paul
I am keeping an eye on who you put on
Les

Subject: RE: Stealing gigs from the pro's
From: Strider
Date: 04 Dec 09 - 04:27 PM

Hi Santa,
"Whatever happened to the Dundedain?"
Well we went our various ways on 7th October 1972, our final farewell performance at the Fighting Cocks.
John Rodd, Mike Huxley and his to be wife Hermionne formed Antic Hey, doing far more "music" and John went on to scale new heights with the Albion Dance Band, and various albums.
Nigel Hall and myself performed sporadically, but in '76 I moved to Belgium, which pretty much put an end to any serious folk music on my side. We reformed for a one off gig in 1996 to mark 25 years (more or less), which we did in Whitby.
Mike Huxley died last year, and as part of the grieving process we decided to put together an archive of the group. It is in place in the form of a wiki, to which anyone can contribute, and later I hope to put it up as full site.
I occasionally meet up with Nigel, and John, but not as threesome. The last couple of times we sang a few songs, it didn't sound bad, but our hearing is going too!
Link to wiki - http://dunedain.wik.is/
Cheers
Ian Culpin