The Concept of FREED Folkmusic

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Art Thieme
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 02:30 PM

Conrad,
Some of the people will get paid all of the time--even though they don't deserve it. Some of the people won't get paid most of the time even though they do deserve it. Why? 'Cause they're not worth nothing anyhow. Some will spew like an undersea oil spill to draw attention to how great it is to have a silly point to make.

Things will fall out as they will. You are simply a pugnacious churl and an impudent rapscallion, dare I say, a troll. Go get back under your bridge! I think that your ideas aren't worth discussing--so I won't.
Art

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 02:37 PM

". . . but festivals are run with the profit in mind otherwise why do they charge money....."

Howard just lined it all out above, crystal clear.

Good God, Conrad, you can't really be that thick!! You're constant harping on your "all volunteer, no money changes hands, all free" folk festivals is totally unrealistic. SOMEBODY has to foot the bills.

At the Northwest Folklife Festivals, NOBODY gets paid for anything. Not the singers, not the people who set up the stages, NOBODY! And the attendees do not have to pay to get in. Yet, there ARE costs. Do you have any idea of the amount of set-up ahead of time (temporary stages and such) and CLEAN-UP afterward that is necessitated by a couple hundred thousand people mobbing a 74 acre area over a three-day weekend? And these costs are absorbed by the TAXPAYERS, some of whom do not give diddly-squat about folk music. Yet, THEY have to pick up the tab!

Now, is THAT fair?

Grow up, Conrad. You're giving FREELOADERS a bad name!!

Don Firth

P. S. I, for one, am not going to waste any more time on this nut-case. His ideas are not going to fly anyway, not because of someone's "profit motives," for the simple reason that they are totally unworkable. How many people are going to happily volunteer to clean up all the crap in the bushes and wipe up all the pee because Conrad doesn't want to have to pay for anything, including Port-a-Potties? (Is HE willing to volunteer to do it? I didn't think so!)

So why even bother?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 03:49 PM

If there are no bills who has to foot them?

All volunteer all sharing means no bills....no none nothing. I sit down in a park to play music....no bills. Why do we have to have bills?

Something to do with human greed.

Why would you let people trash a festival?

Talk to the park service its called pack it in pack it out.

Yes your festival seems good I said that and commendable but if you let people create bills for taxpayers well thats not good. If your folks set up stages then where is the cost?

You should bother to understand that the entire game plan can be and should be re-written.

Self help. Free it now. Dont generate any bills- you just dont have to.

I live in a big city no one or hardly anyone pees in bushes there is some litter but by and large people dont trash city parks.

You must live in an area with very messy people. Dont give tax payers such a hard time insist that people clean up.

Now what is stopping you?

And by the way I have already blown away the stages- we dont need them. No chairs no stages no electrical no amps.

Keep the performance areas small, sit on grass, listen and play music.

What is so hard for you people to understand.

We don't need all the crap. That is only putting costs in where we need to make accessibility most important.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 05:26 PM

What about the manufacturers of instruments? Are they restricting the numbers of musicians by charging for their goods? Should we all be making our own, presumably from donated timber? Should we all get free petrol to get to your events? Free cars? Free trousers?

The only 'sense' I can make from your... [insert colourful description] ...is that you want to dispense with the whole system of exchange that the entire(?) world runs on. Unfortunately we're all stuck with it for now, so I suggest you persue a career in politics if you feel so strongly about your principles, and leave the rest of us alone to our stupidity and exploitation. Pity us from a distance, there's a good chap.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 07:17 PM

Buy your instruments from your gig money and leave the public coffers which are already stretched out of it.

Absurd replies to a serious thread do not move things forward.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 08:49 PM

Let me cite an example of what happens when a large number of people congregate anywhere, Conrad.

Every year, during Seattle's Seafair, one of the events is a world class hydroplane race on Lake Washington. Big weekend. Lot's of stuff going on, and between heats in the race, the Air Force's "Blue Angels" put on a demonstration of precision flying over the Lake. Huge crowds show up on the shores of the lake to watch the race and the other events.

The following Monday, if you drive around the lake, it looks like a blizzard of litter hit the place, and Seattle Parks Department employees have to clean it up.

And all of this has to be paid for by the taxpayers, whether they give a billy hoot about the race, the flying demonstration, Seafair, or not! Who ELSE is going to do it?

You say, "You pack it in, you pack it out." Sounds fine in principle, and if people would actually DO that, it would work. But—PEOPLE IN REAL LIFE DON'T DO THAT!! Some people do, and that's great. But the vast majority of people DO NOT.

And no, the population of Seattle is not particularly messy. Quite the contrary, in fact. Seattle is one of the best cities in the country for recycling and such, and is generally one of the cleanest cities in the country. This is because we live in one of the most beautiful and, so far, relatively unspoiled areas of the country, and we want to keep it that way.

Conrad, you hang all your ideas on "IF this" and "IF that," but unfortunately that's not the way the world works. And then you say, "Yes, but IF—"

And off you go into la-la land again.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:22 PM

Absurd replies to a serious thread do not move things forward.

I was being serious, but I'm glad you realise that extending your 'philosophy' beyond your own personal boundaries is absurd.

Now, can you please define 'moving things forward'? Would it involve the words 'yes, Conrad you are right', by any chance?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:47 PM

For one thing there is no excuse for littering. Enforce the law.

Just another excuse thrown up

In the parks all around here its pack it in pack it out. There are no trash cans. The parks do sometimes give out plastic bags.

Too many excuses.

One down!

Now why cant we all have free folk music NOW?

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:47 PM

IF

As Katherine Hepburn, portraying Eleanor of Aquitaine, said in the movie The Lion in Winter:

"If pigs could fly, they're would be pork in the tree tops!"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 09:56 PM

Would that be a bacon tree or a ham bush?

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 01:22 AM

I wasn't going to waste any more time on this numbskull.....but.....
(Conrad)
" I have seen folk musicians sitting by the hotel pool, while volunteers did all the hard work"
Priceless!!!!! Thanks Conrad.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 01:34 AM

If pigs could fly, Conrad's ass would be O'Hare.............

Fallacy 1 is that all these people would show up to listen to folk music if it were free. I know a lot of people who wouldn't show up if they were paid to be there.........much like myself with opera.

Fallacy 2 is that folk people will appreciate free music far more than any they would have to pay for. I personally could care less whether a musician is paid or not as it really doesn't enter into any personal evaluation on my part. But if I had to listen to someone at a place where I had to shit behind a bush, I wouldn't be there.........and neither would probably 99% of the rest of the world.

Fallacy 3 is even tolerating the inane and ridiculous posting of the Super Pissant, Conrad Bladderass.


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 06:39 AM

Ah yes the standard- if it doesnt cost money people wont appreciate it.
Sad....try another excuse.

I hand out ice cold free watermellon slices at festivals. People really do appreciate it~

Once again.....there are lots of places, parks urban centers without toilets and nobody has to shit behind the bush.

The entire mental condition of having to have a toilet every two feet is amusing. Why don't you just tow a pot on wheels behind you? Or better yet wear astronaut pants.

Come on folks find some real good reasons that Free folk can't happen.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 06:50 AM

Good grief, this is like herding cats or knitting fog.
There is endless amounts of Free music out there. Every pub at Sidmouth festival for a start..Midday to Midnight. Songs Tunes, Old time American, traditional, contemporary Even a free dance in the Ford. and a lot of the booked guests often pop in to a session or two for (You guessed it) FREE!
You could spend a whole week there and never pay a penny. A lot of people do!

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 06:55 AM

But not in the festival itself where the big names are!

Next- lets see how free it really is-

What was the price of a pint in the pubs that had music?
Dont think it was cheap for some reason.......

Musicians used to bring in people to be ripped off...not exactly friendly.....

I shall wait for a report.

I am always surprised that folk musicians, poor folk that they claim to be always seem to hold sings and sessions at the most expensive places. If one drinks properly one can only afford to attend for a few minutes.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 07:05 AM

Oh and this weekend. Faversham Hop festival. Music in every pub, 2 open air stages, Every event totally and absolutely free to the visitor. Yes people are collecting money in buckets, but you don't have to pay if you choose not to. It's funded by the council and the local business community, but you do't have to buy a beer if you don't want to, and you can take your own sandwiches. How more Free do you want? It's been going for 15 years. So it can and does happen.
So, Off you go then and do it yourself. and stop moaning.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 07:11 AM

The beer prices ar exactly the same as any other week. But the pubs sell a lot more. One pub in Sidmouth only survives the rest of the year on the takings it makes in Folk week. I don't call that exploitation. But excuse me, I'm off to sit by my pool have a Pimms and snigger at all those poor proles that I have fleeced this summer. Poor saps.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 07:15 AM

That is wonderful! Great for access.

One slight problem

"its funded by the council and the local business community"

Oh that means that dedication to the music is skin deep. Musicians or someone probably paid.

Don't you have hungry and homeless and out of work folks there?

One of my main concerns is that welfare is not the way to go for folk music. It is artificial and not sustaining. I know many folk musicians who have perfectly good day jobs and would not qualify as welfare cases who are on the public trough and play at government funded events.

One the main problems with socialized folk music is that it is limited the second is that it goes away and can not be depended on.
If you are not dependent upon limited funds you can hold more events.

A good start but I would suggest removal of the socialist teet.

Around here pro musicians have adapted by simply playing more paying private gigs- weddings and funerals, now that they are not booked up with socialized events.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 07:55 AM

OK Conrad Will you listen.
Faversham is a small market town near Canterbury in Kent. Home of the Shepherd Neame brewery.
I lived there for many years and was a member of the festival band who would play at the start of the two days (a sort of overture for the day).
Apart from maybe 1 or 2 headliners, virtually every performer lives locally, (and that includes some pretty well known names) and performs for free, so that the towns businesses benefit from the visitors (normally about 1500 people a day at a guess)
Little money is spent on advertising. it's not needed. The town is pretty heaving the whole weekend.
Every shop and bar is festooned with freshly harvested Hop Bines (Hence the name of the festival)
It is always a pleasure to give something back to a beautiful town by providing our musical services for nothing, and all the shops and pubs show a profit. I say again, Where is the exploitation there?
You really shouldtry it. It works, and works well.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 08:11 AM

I know - you are quite correct. More should understand that when you open venues up people will come and in greater numbers benefiting the entire place.

The event sounds wonderful. I know the area well. Some day I will get there again.

Just so we start getting festivals off the socialist dole. A small step really. It just means finding people in other sectors willing to donate for a few days a year.

Perhaps as they appreciate the value of the event and combine that with an appreciation of how municipal coffers are limited and stretched these days this too will happen.

Sounds like a great event a model for others.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 08:22 AM

Well, I'm glad we agree on something. Remember that The Hop fest has taken many years to grow, and it's not so good if it pisses with rain, but thats only happened a couple of times to my knowledge. and it looks like they've got good weather this weekend too.
But the only way to do it is by having a hard core of enthusiasts ,with the suitable skills. You still have to hire staging, PA, crowd barriers, St Johns ambulance. You have to get permission to shut off the streets so negotiations with the police are mandatory. One person couldn't just turn up and do it on a Saturday afternoon. The Hop has a committee who spend several months organising it. And it works.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 01:16 PM

More should understand that when you open venues up people will come and in greater numbers benefiting the entire place.

Then the venues have to get bigger to accommodate the extra numbers, and the expenses get bigger as a result, regardless of where the money comes from. Bigger amplification is needed because the extra people will be further from the sound source, and the inevitable steaming great pile of shit will be proportionately bigger.

Why don't you just tow a pot on wheels behind you? Or better yet wear astronaut pants.

That is indeed one solution, and no more absurd than the rest of your ideas. This, presumably, would apply to the (volunteering) artists as well?

You paint a wonderful picture, Conrad, and we can all look forward to seeing Carthy/Watersons performing for free in their shit filled astronaut pants, heading the bill at a three day hot summer festival. I bet they can't wait.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 01:23 PM

OK Conrad, since it's so easy, why don't you do it? Put on a festival - a proper festival, not a few people in your backyard. It doesn't need to be very big, a few thousand visitors will do to start with.

Find someone to donate a venue. Find someone to provide portable toilets with no charge, and a waste disposal utility to get rid of the contents for nothing. Find an insurance company willing to provide third-party liability cover for nothing. Persuade the performing rights societies to issue their licences for free. Persuade your local government to issue whatever permits you need for free. Get the police to provide their services for free (you think they won't need to control traffic?). Print the programmes and advertising flyers and posters for nothing.

Oh, and I nearly forgot. Find performers good enough and well-known enough to attract a festival-sized audience who are all willing to perform for nothing.

I look forward to reading the enthusiastic reviews.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 01:33 PM

Toilets are for wimps, Howard.

It's the clog and morris dancers I'm really looking forward to.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 02:17 PM

As I've said. The Faversham Hop festival is (apparently, having just spoken to someone there) Doing very nicely, as usual. And It is doing very nicely because there is a core committee making it work. Any other event is just busking!
Nowt wrong with that....but it's just busking.....
Faversham is a free town festival.
Provided by the musicians who live there (or nearby). For the people who live in Faversham.
Surely this is exactly what you are proposing?
And it's taken a dozen years to make it what it is today. I feel sad that I can't be there. But I know how wonderful it is.

So, off you go and do the same thing, and leave the rest of us to actually do what you haven't got the gumption to do yourself.
Turn your ideas into deeds, and then we may take you a little more seriously. Until then......Shut it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 02:42 PM

"Don't you have hungry and homeless and out of work folks there?"

Gosh! I didn't know that if people are hungry and homeless and out of work, going to a free folk music event was high on their list of priorities! Wow! Learn something new every day!!

"I know many folk musicians who have perfectly good day jobs and would not qualify as welfare cases who are on the public trough and play at government funded events."

Really!?? Okay, name a few. (I didn't think so!)

"SOCIALIZED" folk music events? Does Glenn Beck know about this!??

Conrad, I refer you back up to Howard's post just above, at 04 Sep 10 - 01:23 p.m., and to Ralphie's post immediately above. There's your solution. If you are REALLY interested in the kind of events you say you want, then DO it. That's what other people do. Even bloated capitalistic singers of folk songs such as myself.

If not, then just shut the hell up and let the people who are really interested in spreading interest in folk music get on with it.

The truth is that not only do you want it all for free, you want someone else to do it for you.

Like I said above, you're the kind of person who gives freeloaders a bad name!

Don Firth (proud to be a bloated capitalist singer of folk songs)

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 04:26 PM

Ok we are back to that re-run why dont you just do it yourself.

Not the point of discussion although I do quite a bit myself, just back from a unitarian church festival donated all day to it had a blast.

The point is why dont you who are doing change your paradigm.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 04:45 PM

I love the idea of free festivals. But without local authority support it can only work if everyone puts something in. If it's supposed to be a minority of activists and artists providing a free event for a largely passive 'feed-me' audience, I can't see how a venture like that can be sustainable long-term.
Small local folk events do sound a grand idea and it'd be fabulous to have more of them in the UK, but only if they can find some support from local business or arts bodies.
In principle it's all good. But I've heard far better practical suggestions from Jim Carroll who's seen local folk fests work in Ireland. I'll try to find them.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 04:50 PM

Is this what you call a discussion, Conrad?

Your paradigm appears to be much like your special festival trousers - full of shit.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 05:02 PM

I think there's something here that's confused the issue also. Conrad believes folk music is for all. I agree. But he equates that with people who don't want to sing or play for themselves, being entertained by professionals who have spent many years honing their skills. Being entertained isn't the same thing as being informed.

As far as I'm concerned, kids aught to learn about their folk musical heritage at school. Then so long as they know it's there, it;s up to then if they want to have a go themselves. It's no muciscian's *duty* to perform for free in order to educate others. Many do though, irrespective of that.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 05:16 PM

Exactly so, Crow Sister!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 06:00 PM

why dont you who are doing change your paradigm.

Because most of us are very happy with the way things are. Hundreds of thousands of people get to enjoy folk music in a good atmosphere. If some musicians manage to earn a living providing it, that's fine by us.

You're the one who wants to change the paradigm. You do something about it.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 04 Sep 10 - 06:54 PM

According to Don that atmosphere means irresponsible tossing of trash.

Easy to be happy with something that is mindless and as long as volunteers support it profitable.

Happiness does not make it right.

Free the big venues make your money in the private small venues.

Take the big venues and divide the stages into reasonable small ones.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 01:22 AM

"According to Don that atmosphere means irresponsible tossing of trash."

That's not what I said, Conrad. What I am saying is that any large crowd invariably leaves a fair amount of detritus behind it, and this is not limited to people attending folk festival, free or otherwise. It's just a fact of life, and someone needs to clean up after an event of any size. Even in a concert hall where people have paid mucho bucks to hear music of any kind, there are usually people who leave programs and ticket stubs behind. Movie theaters have candy wrappers and popcorn containers left behind after every movie showing.

It happens to be one of the side-effects of any gathering of any size. YOU'VE never tossed an empty Milk Duds box under your seat in a movie theater, have you Conrad?

There are huge folk festivals like the Newport Folk Festivals and the Northwest Folklife Festivals, some charging admission and others free; there are concerts in theaters and concert halls of various sizes, usually charging admission but sometimes free; there are coffeehouses and clubs, some with cover charges and minimums and some not; there are house concerts in intimate, comfortable settings, some paid and some free of charge. And there are parties—"hoots"—where a group of friends get together somewhere to sing for each other just for fun.

I see no good reasons to change something that has been working fine for decades and is still working fine, just because some self-styled "visionary artist" has developed a bad case of myopia and can't see beyond his own parsimonious desires.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 02:14 AM

Totally agree Don.
It's inevitable that any gathering of people will produce some rubbish. Not because they are bad. It's just a fact.
A lot of the organisers of the Hop Fest can be seen toting bin liners on the Sunday evening. Even if they've been performing earlier in the day. Why?
Because we want to leave the town as we found it. And we'd like to show the council that it is a good event, and can we come back next year?
It's a principle that has worked for many years. It's called simple courtesy.
I can guarantee that by 9 o'clock tonight. The stages will have been dismantled, PA systems packed away, the town put back to normal, as if nothing had happened.
There will also be some very happy traders counting their takings, and looking forward a year hence to the next one.
As for the visitors to the town?
The regulars will have seen it before.
The newcomers will have experienced a joyful experience that they don't get at home.
The winners? Well just about everyone! Businesses, musicians, street theatre artists, The brewery! The Morris sides who turn up for nothing.
Who loses? nobody really.
But, It needs to be organised, and it is..with everyone doing their bit.
Free? Yes, of course it is.
Expensive? In terms of hard work by the volunteers, Yes.
I say again Conrad. Why not try it yourself.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 06:56 AM

Conrad, you seem to have a pretty low opinion of people who attend festivals. The volunteers are "stupid", the audiences are "manipulated", now it appears that they are "mindless" too.

Since you seem to believe that the essence of folk music is small, more intimate settings, I am surprised that you would prefer people to make money from these rather than from large events. The reality, which has been pointed out by people from both sides of the pond, is that there are a great many small events, and many of these are free. However there is simply not enough to be made from small venues for most performers to make a living - they need the big festivals as well. So the big festivals are in fact helping to support the smaller venues.

Stop asking other people to fix a problem which they don't recognise exists in the first place. You haven't put forward any coherent arguments to support your case, you just keep repeating unjustified assertions - to me, that's "mindless". If you think the way festivals are run is wrong, then lead by example - demonstrate to us that your ideas not only work, but work better. Otherwise shut up.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 07:25 AM

Trash is not necessary or unavoidable- if you have free trash pick up professional musicians looking for profit will of course not waste their valuable time doing such work as making sure people pick up their own trash!

Dont mention house concerts what could be open and free gatherings are the most closed and elitist of all. Get rid of them or set them right.

Just because something works does not mean it is the best way what a frail argument to stop reasonable change. Try again.

People produce rubbish because you let them. Back to the national and state parks model which works just fine- another weak argument.

Again great reviews for the Hop Fest my friend Keith and his morris side were there and I received good reports. Keep up the good work but always press for subtle changes which will improve things even though things are working.

You might try making bin liners available to the public and make signs explaining what pack it in pack it out means and I bet you will find that the public will take it up.

Yes I do two events a year totally free.

Why do we have performers that need to make a living?

Ok they are ok but keep your hands out of public events and socialized music.

If you take a large festival and within it create many many small stages the experience will be much better for all concerned.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 09:20 AM

Just because something works does not mean it is the best way

Of course it doesn't. So prove that your way is better. Convince people that your changes are "reasonable". You've failed to put forward any reasoned argument to support your proposals, which appear to be based on your (erroneous) belief that people are getting rich from folk festivals, and your apparent contempt for those who attend them, whether as audience or volunteers. Put on a proper free festival entirely with volunteers and without taking public money, and demonstrate to us that it is better.

So you do two events a year totally free? Big deal! How many events do you do which are not free? Or is that all you do? In which case you are hardly qualified to tell others, many of whom do several events a week (some of them for free), how to run a festival.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: mikesamwild
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 10:06 AM

Wasn't it simple when people went to where two tracks crossed and played and people came to dance and meet neighbors?


Sessions, pot luck suppers, barn dances, kitchen sessions , pub sessions, playing in parks and squares, secret raves in the woods, camping weekends, garden parties, taking a bunkhouse or school etc for a weekend morris meet, street parties under some pretext or other!.


Lots of posibilities.

Anywhere a gang of poeple can come together and feel secure and let their hair down without too much restriction can spark music and dance and song.


Bradfield weekend suits me fine but Mark does subsidise it out of his pocket.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 11:40 AM

Exactly! Enough of these excuses.

Yes I support my two events. I also perform free. All day yesterday and basically whenever invited.

I am already living the life! Thats why it bothers me to see others seem to be human jukeboxes and wont do anything unless supported by lots of volunteers who worship them.

Freedom of assembly means assemble and be free. Not assemble and worry that it might be illegal.

So you simply go to a free public park and happen to draw a crowd so what.

We do this all the time with artcar parades. A big one in LA is just a bunch of cars going to the same place on the same route. Therefore, no fees easy. If you are OPTOMISTIC and TRY

So far it just looks like excuses made on behalf of money making professionals who would stand to benefit under the freed music paradigm anyway.

Come up with a real reason you cant come play and that we can all volunteer or none at all.

Yes some do this from time to time but why not all the time?

I have no problem with pro musicians just that they need to do what is right for the expansion of the tradition and I have made a good case that it is best to limit costs if the tradition is to be most accessible, open to more newcomers, and expand.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 11:50 AM

I agree Mike, and a lot of that kind of thing still goes on, and much of it is free. However it's a big step from that kind of event to a full-blown festival.

Perhaps Bradfield is the sort of event that Conrad has in mind, although it is scarcely big enough to qualify as a "festival" in my mind. For those not familiar with it, Bradfield Traditional Music Weekend is held in Mark Davies' barn and a few local pubs, and an excellent thing it is too. But even a small event like that, which meets most of Conrad's requirements, incurs costs which have to be met, and has to make a modest charge and even then relies on the generosity of Mark and his wife Joan to continue to support it. There's simply no way it could be run for free.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 11:51 AM

Another great semi freed festival

http://tpff.org/10/index.htm

Takoma Park Folk Festival

But even with volunteers and volunteer performers still so much on the web page about donors, and money, and organizations benefiting from donor money....its like a great socialist hand out event.

I really think that there are too many extras involved and that makes such an event hard to manage and repeat and a burden for the community.
Again with all our many drastic needs one would think there would be little grant money devoted to music. It can stand alone.

But at least the musicians donate time.
I always give credit where due.

But it must be consuming a large chunk of money just to gather and make music which requires none at all.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 12:46 PM

What you are proposing would limit folk music, not expand it.

At present, festivals put on performers from all around the country, and even from overseas. Why should a performer travel all the way to Baltimore from California, or the UK, at their own expense? Especially as they'll be too busy trying to find smaller gigs to earn a living, since you've cut off their income from festivals.

The sort of festivals you are advocating would have to rely on the same network of local performers who could afford to attend without incurring substantial travelling expenses. The range of music audiences would be able to listen to would be drastically reduced, not expanded.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Bettynh
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 02:00 PM

I agree with the concept of free folk music, world peace, rain that falls every day, gently, between 2 and 6 AM, morning fogs that disappear by 9 AM, useful and productive work for everyone who wants to work, a living wage even for the ones who don't particularly want to work, a chicken in every pot.

Concepts are easy.

I am annoyed that you continue to post here, constantly referring to "you people."

I'm sorry Artscape refused to pay your fee. I'm sorry you didn't get a free hotel room with pool. I'm sorry that no professional musicians want to hang around with you after they perform. I'm sorry that someone wanted to listen to you tell a story before putting you on the stage.

That doesn't make it right for you to troll this community with inflammatory posts. If you're just engaging in wishful thinking, say so. If you're as deluded as you seem, I'm sorry for that, too.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 05:13 PM

Well, if the community thinks its a burden I guess they won't repeat it. But do you know what? I bet the community had a really great time, and that it brought the community together, which is why both public agencies and private businesses and organisations felt it was worth supporting.

It can't be too much of a burden, or too difficult to organise, since they've managed to hold it 33 times. I would guess they've got it about right.

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 09:24 PM

Nobody is making excuses.

"Dont mention house concerts what could be open and free gatherings are the most closed and elitist of all. Get rid of them or set them right."

I think this may be the crux of Conrad's delusions right here. As I recall, way up-thread he says he went to a house concert once, expecting it to by free, and they wanted to charge him to get in.

There is nothing wrong with house concerts the way they are right now. As a matter of fact, there is a great deal that is very right about house concerts.

House concerts don't cost a great deal to set up. All you need is a house with a living room or other fairly sizable room that can accommodate a fair number of people. Twenty-five, thirty, thirty-five people perhaps, sitting on sofas, chairs, perhaps folding chairs, on cushions, cross-legged on the floor, whatever, without people having to sit in each others' laps. The setting is intimate. No PA system is necessary. Interaction between the singer and the audience is easy. Most singers I know like this kind of setting very much.

And this liking of an intimate, informal setting is not just limited to singers of folk songs. Linda Ronstadt once commented that she much prefers to sing in small, intimate settings as opposed to the usual big arenas where the lights are so bright she can't even see the audience and where a guitar riff from a rock concert held the previous week is still reverberating through the place.

If you check the internet, there is a whole network of people all over the country who open their houses for house concerts, and a singer who is aware of this network can do fairly extensive concert tours consisting of house concerts. This gives an opporutunity for very good, but often not well-known singers to become better known while singing for a lot of people all over an area of the country.

Otherwise, many fine singers who deserve to be heard might languish in obscurity, depriving others from the opportuntiy to enjoy hearing them.

Those who put on these concerts (those who live in the houses) are motivated, not by greed for profits, but by an intense interest in the music itself. This gives them a chance to hear the singer up close, and usually put them up for a night or two, and chat with them some before they move on to their next engagement. And more often than not, the money taken in (usually in the form of a "recommended donation" rather than a fixed fee, which avoids the necessity of entertainment licenses, bookwork, and having to pay local entertainment taxes) is given entirely to the singer. The singer most certainly does not get rich this way, but he or she can at least pay their traveling and living expenses while doing so.

There are advantages to everyone involved.

In addition, house concerts are very much in the traditions of the troubadours and minstrels who traveled around singing in private homes (manor houses, castles) for the lord of the manor and his family and friends. And in the traditions of other musicians as well. Mozart and Beethoven more often than not debuted their works at recitals that their patrons put on in their own homes. This was how they made their livings—so they could keep on composing their music!

Elitist? Modern house concerts are far less "elitist" than such things used to be, when the host or patron might be a duke—or a king. Most house concerts, and concerts at other small venues, are generally announced through internet web sites, or through newsletters. If they seem "exclusive" because, for example, the address is not advertised—only a phone number—this is because there is limited space, and the host wants you to make a reservation over the phone ahead of time (first come, first served) so he or she doesn't have a mob of people outside their house grousing because the place is already full up. It only makes sense!

The natural habitat of folk music is not the bloody-great folk festival with thousands of people attending, whether free or not. It is in front of the kitchen sink when a mother and daughter are singing while they're doing the dishes, or a couple of guys out on the front porch passing a banjo back and forth. Or the deck of a ship raising anchor, hoisting sail, or sitting around in the fo'c'sle playing a concertina and singing to while away the off-watch. Or swinging a sledge hammer on a chain gang. Or sitting by the fire in a cabin in a logging camp, singing "Come All Ye's." THAT is what "folk experiences" are! Not some huge folk festival!

So if Conrad is looking for a free "folk experience," I'd suggest that he sign about a whaling ship or a windjammer, or get himself busted so he'll wind up wearing stripes, with a chain on his leg, lining track with a bunch of other similarly clad guys.

The nearest most people can have to a "folk experience" these days is for a bunch of friends to get together in someone's living room to swap songs and sing for each other (case of beer or jug of screw-top wine optional).

NOT some huge folk festival!

Some dedicated people devote their lives to a particular activity, spend their time, energy, dedication—and money, oftentimes great amounts of it—to develop their talents and hone the skills necessary to pursue this activity. And when large numbers of people are more than happy to pay good money to hear them do what they do, there are always people like Conrad who make all kinds of excuses—yes, my opening statement on this post is incorrect; there ARE people making excuses!—claiming that these dedicated and talented people should simply write off their expenses in developing their talents and turn around and give the fruits of it to people like him—for nothing.

Why should they? Give me one good reason!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 09:29 PM

We never ever needed traveling musicians we need to spread it locally.

Look folk music has always been local. No jet setters need apply. Grow them at home.

Ok next....

I dont want to sit by the pool. I want to tell stories. Whats the problem. you are protecting a class of uppidy folk pros. Is that it.?

Make music not money and the money will come!

Money is a lot of work accounting and such music alone is a lot of pleasure.

Dont charge money it sucks.

Conrad

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 10:33 PM

We never ever needed traveling musicians we need to spread it locally.

Tell that one to the travellers..

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Sep 10 - 11:55 PM

". . . you are protecting a class of uppidy folk pros."

Methinks I detect the rancid reek of envy.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Concept of FREED Folkmusic
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Sep 10 - 12:53 AM

I think you're right, Don, but there's a distinct whiff of bullshit on the air too.