BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 05:45 PM

No one is talking about taking away "all your guns", Lightman...

Not even BillD and he's probably the most pro-gun-control advocate here...

BTW, had Holmes had an Arab last name his behaviors would have had him on a watch list... Weird behaviors, i.e. ordering 6000 rounds of ammo, regardless of ones last name, should warrant a phone call... And why did Holmes have all that SWAT team garb sent with "2 Day Delivery"??? Another red flag... The guy at the gun shop thought he was wacko... More red flags... The guy who owns the shooting club thought Holmes was a wacko... Red flags, red flags and more red flags...

Here we are spending 100s of billion$$$ on DHS yet good ol' American sounding names slip thru the cracks yet we have Arabs arrested for plots that were dreamed up by the FBI in stings and Arabs arrested for going to paint-ball centers???

Something is terribly messed up here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:04 PM

Is ordering 6000 rounds of ammo actually weird by mountain-state standards? A target shooter could surely blow off 100 a day with no trouble.

The problem with Bobert's "red flags" is that none of them is individually all that strange. Collectively they are, but who'd want to live in a regime that imposed a level of surveillance thorough enough to match separate transactions like that?

Paranoids can be very damn smart. But it doesn't always take a huge amount of smarts to conceal a mental state so bizarre that a normal person would never imagine anyone having it. Who could have predicted what this guy did?

Kip Kinkel psychiatric evaluation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kip_Kinkel

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:23 PM

It ouht to be easy enough to make it illegal to send ammunition by mail order or similar. And that wouldn't in any way interfere with any "right to bear arms". In fact it would probably help gun shops cross counter sales.

Though I suppose "easy enough" might not be the right term in an American context whe it comes to any kind of restriction of this trade.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:24 PM

Read carefully, Bobert. And don't confuse me with the large numbers of voters who think Obama's gunning for their roscoes right now.

From a real newspaper:

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2012/0723/Colorado-shooting-Why-calling-Obama-anti-gun-is-smart-politics

"Now the argument by gun-rights advocates is this: If Obama is reelected, he will have no more elections to worry about, and then he will show his true colors on guns. This was the message promoted by NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre at the Conservative Political Action Conference last February.

" 'All that first-term lip service to gun owners is just part of a massive Obama conspiracy to deceive voters and hide his true intentions to destroy the Second Amendment in his second term,' Mr. LaPierre said to thunderous applause."

Note the audience-friendly phrase, "massive Obama conspiracy."

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 06:29 PM

And as usual, mass shootings lead to bigger gun sales:

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/gun-sales-aurora-colorado-shooting-spike-tuscon-161409369--finance.html

43% doesn't sound like a meaningless coincidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 07:02 PM

Everyone seems to agree there's never going to be a shortage of terrorists and wackos... and that we **usually** can't identify them before they do something crazy, no matter how we look for 'red flags'. It was not illegal for Holmes to buy all that stuff, and he had no criminal record.
What can we DO except make it harder for wackos to obtain stuff to do mass murder?
Look...babies will always chew on stuff, so we monitor kids toys and **regulate** things that might harm them! The point being, we don't NEED lead paint and small, breakable parts on kids toys.
Society also doesn't NEED many of the categories of guns and ammo they can now buy...or steal... easily! Regulation of serious weapons should not be an issue! It's just that these are BIG BOY'S toys, and there is too much money at stake!

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 07:03 PM

Exactly, Lightman...

I have pointed out here several times that no politician is going to go up against the NRA, especially during a re-election campaign...

And, yeah, the NRA loves these shootings... Can't get enough of 'um... If the NRA had it their way they'd have one every 6 months... I mean, let's get real... Where does it gets the vast war chest it has to wipe out any candidate who suggests any sane gun control legislation???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 07:05 PM

Now, since we have passed 300 posts, and many will be just loading the last 50, I am reposting my links about all the connections between gun lobbies and politics....it is scary reading!

-------------------------------------------------------------
So... you think trying to limit gun shows is the ways to go? Do you have ANY idea what you are up against?



Last night on CurrentTV (the admittedly liberal channel partially owned by Al Gore) Jennifer Granholm showed the links:

this guy, George-Kollitides, who used to run Cerberus Capital Management, and is now head of New York State Rifle & Pistol Association, is now head of The Freedom Group, who are buying up weapons companies...(read it ALL).

In the meantime, guys like Bob Brown of Soldier of Fortune magazine are connected in various way with the above groups.... and ALL of them contribute heavily to election campaigns which agree to oppose ALL gun laws...including gun shows!



Note, olddude... New York State Rifle & Pistol Association is now run by one of those dedicated to NO restrictions...let's see if your vaunted tough laws last a few more years!



Also...note the relationships between all those and Stephen Feinberg who is involved with Cerberus Capital Management. " Steve and Gisela Feinberg are prolific donors to the Republican Party and related organizations."



So, you see? All the money, all the politics, all the ownership of firearms manufacturers, all the 'sports' gun groups who are supporting each other? Make a guess where the NRA fits into the equation!



(Statistics say 20-30 MORE were shot and several killed since I saw that show yesterday)...and YOU, Dan, are gonna cope by you & YOUR family carrying MORE weapons? Pardon me while I laugh hollowly!~

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 07:48 PM

These statistics tell an intriguing story:

FBI crime report stats 2011

The murder rate in the US dropped by 4% between 2010 and 2011. Except in small towns, where it went up by 18%, and overall in the Midwest, up by 0.6%.

I would expect those to be exactly the places where the NRA's message is most listened to.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 07:55 PM

Eliza if there were ever a time that I wished I could support the death penalty it would be now, But NO - death penalty is nothing more than vengeance it is not justice .. ME I would lock him up and 24 hours a day he would have to watch home video's of those he killed for the rest of his life. That would make sense

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 08:16 PM

Two deaths where the boyfriend covered their girls to protect them. Both guys died protecting their girls. I would much rather have seen one of them highly trained and armed and put one through the creeps head. Nope, they just die being a human shield. Every one of these situation that is what we keep reading .. you folks handle things your way, I will mine. I am gone from the thread so insult away. I can take it

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 08:27 PM

Bad idea, Ol-ster... I mean, more bullets in a theater wasn't what was needed... Fewer is what was needed... The guy who was at the Gabby Gifford's shooting that went to his car and retrieved his gun thought thru the scenario and deducted that it was best not to use his gun...

Yeah, we all would love to think that we could have made a difference but when we have an entire movie house packing heat and something like this happens it's going to be one heck of a lot worse than what we ended up with...

Very few people are highly trained - I mean, highly trained - to be able to interpret everything that is happening around them, no matter how well their intentions may be...

This claim that guns are saving lives in America is beyond bogus... It's killing the heck out of us...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:07 PM

The last thing a trained lawman would do is use a gun in a crowded situation. That is not the sort of thing olddude is talking about.
His objective is to teach the safe use and care of firearms in a society where guns are and will remain abundant.

Not pertinent to the theme of the thread, but posts have become scattergun in content, so I might as well add a few crime statistics.

Gary LaFree, a criminology professor at Univ. Maryland, says the U.S. is experiencing the lowest crime levels since WW2.
Factors include an aging population (younger people commit more crimes), increased immigration (immigrants commit fewer crimes), police are targeting problems and looking for solutions.
News, MWSNBC; other sources.
Year-to-year statistics are unreliable; long term swings should be looked for.
Some suggest, however, that the drop in crime may have bottomed out.

There are several explanations for the rise in rural crime, "convergence" of non-metropolitan and metropolitan life styles being a major cause.
See http://www.equotient.net/papers/crime.pdf

Across the border, Canada is experiencing its lowest crime levels since 1972.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:11 PM

An outsider's view.

In the course of my life I have come in contact with guns. I was about 9 or 10 when I was taught to use a .22 single-shot rifle (fired shorts). Along with that went gun safety--basic stuff: don't carry a gun (loaded or not) over a fence; if it has a safety, use it; unless you are hunting, there's no need to have the rifle (gun) with a round chambered while you move about; do not point a gun at anything you do not mean to kill; if you cannot perfectly identify what you are shooting at you may just have killed someone you love; if you ain't hungry, why did you kill it?, stuff like that.

I used rifles after that, but only for target shooting: can on a fence post, etc. Then the militia came along and I learned to use an FN C-1 (NATO rifle for which I can still recall the stats).

A few years after I was out with a few friends and we were hunting. My buddies (two of them) were to the east and we were going north. We'd agreed to keep apace, so we went as an ell with the 90 degree corner missing. I saw a brightly coloured bird (yellow, orange or red), shades of bright blue and because one of my friends tied his own fishing flies, I aimed at the head of the bird with a Vostok .22--maybe the best open sight of the time, and shot. When I walked about 85' or so and picked up the little body--shot through the head--I felt ashamed of myself. But not as ashamed as when I shot three raccoons. And that's another 'true confession'.

Fact is, people who have and use guns do so for varied reasons: curiousity, hunting, target shooting, killing. For me it was always curiousity. I had two guns aimed at me from within a yard. (Three feet.) I have no shame in telling you that both experiences scared the shit outta me. And in both experiences I was thinking I could kill the person pointing the gun at me. The problem in both cases was money and not power. IMO, if you think you can beat a bullet, do so. Otherwise, don't. Trust me, there is a time between fifty smiles of love and fifty miles of hate.

The raccoons died because I shot them: each one. I shot the children.

That is when I quit killing things. I have since been hit so hard I wished I was unconscious, but I wasn't. And hit so hard I was, unconscious, and was. Now, despite I was once was and did, I won't anymore.

I love you, and that's all that needs be said.

PS

I think that anyone who carries a piece is a chickenshit (no offense).

OH, I meant to say that after you kill something, you feel like shit for damned near all the rest of your life.

##################################

There are three times I killed things to kill them and thus feed people. That was then, and this is now.

There is nothing admirable about death. It is ugly, whether or not you caused it. The are but two ends to life, both mitigated by time. When you have a moment,

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:24 PM

Q,

In case you haven't noticed, 100,000 Americans are shot every year... With better response time and better medicine lots are living that even 20 years a go would have died...

Ol'ster's desire to having been in that theater wouldn't have changed the outcome... It would have made it worse... No offense to Ol'ster... That is reality... Bad enough with one gunman... Double them up and who knows... Like I said, no offense to Ol'ster...

Snipers make a difference... More fire power in a crowded theater don't... Do the math...

This idea that what we need to do is have more folks packing heat to make us safer is insanity on crack...

Have you ever been in a rumble or bar fight... Unfortunately for my nose (2nd time broken) I have been in a bar fight... Had folks all been packing heat then I might not be here tonight...

No to more guns... It's like leech therapy... More ain't gonna cure ya'...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:29 PM

Bobert is right on this. Having known someone who packed a gun with him all the time, with the idea that he could save lives by taking out any potential shooters before they could do serious harm, turned out to be more of a danger to both other people and himself.

The jury is still out, but I can make a pretty good guess as to the dark urges lurking in George Zimmermann's mind before he shot Trayvon Martin. Not "Have Gun, Will Travel," but "Have Gun, Want to Shoot Someone!" And some black teen ager, who had every right to be where he was, provided Zimmermann with what he thought was a reasonable excuse.

Most people's skills with firearms—or lack thereof—would make them more of a danger to more people than the occasional Aurora, Colorado shooter. Imagine what would have happened in that theater had one or more other people had drawn guns and started blazing away with the idea of stopping the shooter—who happened to be wearing a Kevlar vest? How many MORE people would have been shot?

At the VERY least, a person should be required to pass a test demonstrating competence with a firearm, and knowledge of when the use of a firearm is called for—and when not. And carry a license along with the firearm, in the same way and for the same reasons that he or she is required to have a license to operate an automobile.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:31 PM

A policeman would have fired his weapon in a heartbeat in a theater full of people. THEY are trained in that situation, if the officer knew he could make a kill shot he would have fired in a heartbeat.   Air Marshals are trained to take out a terrorist in a crowed airliner without hurting an innocent .. and you bet Navy Seals and special forces are also. I know what I am talking about. And one of the kids that died his girlfriend in the hospital said he was standing over them point blank .. Even a civilian armed response would have hurt no one but the agressor

Now as for chicken shit Bruce .. wasn't your kid was it

anyway, I got places to go
later I am done with this

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 09:36 PM

Here in North Carolina and guy accidentally shot and killed his own father in a back yard dispute with a neighbor... Normal...

More guns ain't gonna make us any safer than poison water or polluted air...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 10:42 PM

"Even a civilian armed response would have hurt no one but the agressor

So... the logic is: EVERYONE who legally can should carry a gun so they can 'respond'? Sounds like 'stand your ground' ³! When everyone...or even MOST ...are carrying, that means short-tempered trigger-happy George Zimmerman's in every theater, bar, college classroom. This means a LOT more 'threats' will be perceived and weapons drawn...with 'responses' by nice, sane, even-tempered, well-trained guys like olddude! Do you REALLY think you can teach reasonable gun handling and restraint to 30-50-75% of the populace?
I sure hope *I* am not in the crossfire when a theater full of well-intentioned 'armed civilians' perceives a threat.

You CANNOT expect reasonable behavior from a random group!

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jul 12 - 11:03 PM

Would Oldster as the second armed person in the theater make it worse?

From my point of view, yeah, I think it would.

Holmes was covered head to toe in body armor, including extra protection for his throat.

Would olddude have shot anyway with his daughter in peril. Probably yeah.

Would he have angered the gunman enough to draw his attention and get half the rifle clip emptied into him. and those in the neighboring seats. Probably yeah. We'd all have missed you Dan.

If you don't have a clean, armor piercing, kill shot do you have any business taking out a gun?

In a perfect NRA world, half the people in the theater would have been packing armor piercing ammo in their guns which would have to pack enough punch for a clean kill.

In that world all the nutjob would have to do is toss his smoke bombs and a few fire crackers and let the vigilante nutjobs kill each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 12:50 AM

No, Dan, it wasn't. Wouldn't have been any better if it was yours.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 01:35 AM

There was a time in England where the tobacco lobby was very powerful. When things began to change , alot of us felt confronted and defensive about the changes.

Nowadays few would say that the changes were not a great public benefit, and we owe a lot to thos people we once felt confronted by. I think maybe, you have a similar sort of fight on over there - with the guncompanies.

You will beat them one day. Youare in the right. Have faith. At one time the tobacco companies in England looked very secure.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 04:02 AM

I just wanted to say to Olddude that he has my heartfelt sympathy and understanding. His family were put in a terrible situation and he is shocked and frightened by the possibility they might so easily have been killed. His reaction to want to kill outright the perpetrator is a natural response for any man. But I still feel that more guns (or any guns) and aggressive, violent responses to threats are not the answers.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Stu
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 07:06 AM

The more guns there are, the more armed civilians then the further away from being civilised a society becomes. It feels like there is some sort of tipping point being reached here, as the BBC report thousands of scared people are buying even more guns: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18980974

Down this road lies madness and death.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 07:12 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhinoceros_%28play%29

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 08:11 AM

""Especially if you can buy them over the counter, like a bag of twinkies. This kid may not be a nutter. He may be normal, and snapped.""

Highly unlikely, given the number and variety of booby traps he built and armed, and the body armour, helmet etc.

He also bought the guns recently for precisely this event.

He is at the very least obsessive, at worst completely mad, but I'm inclined to believe he is a murderous sociopath, who is only too aware of the difference between right and wrong but doesn't see that they apply to him.

He'll have a job to convince a jury that he didn't know what he was doing, given the meticulous planning involved.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Stu
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 08:34 AM

Thing is Don, where do we draw the line in defining someone as mad? Everyone says he must mad because he purposefully bought guns and went out and killed people. But we don't think terrorists are mad for doing the same thing, and we don't class the person flying a drone 10,000 miles away as mad even thought they might kill dozens at a stroke. The problem is these two examples have a context, we expect terrorists to kill people, and we train our servicemen and women with that purpose too, but we don't expect a civilian to do the same. Why not?

The truth is, this might be a kid who has got his wires crossed, with appalling results. The fact he wears a body armour and helmet means nothing; he's taking his cues from what he sees on the telly, policemen dressed the same way when dealing with protestors, often violently. He might be in a world of his own, but that's no different to millions of others. What's really terrifying is not the worry of a lone madman, it's the fact ordinary citizens who for some reason snap and loose perspective can now enact their revenge fantasies simply by buying a gun, getting on the internet and doing some basic chemistry.

The problem is, there's no desire amongst the movers and shakers to limit the availability of guns and stop these people from committing the most horrendous crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 08:50 AM

Bill, there you go again - trying to use reason on zombies. You should know better by now.

Consider John Lott. He's an academic who wrote a thick, dry-as-dust statistical tome whose title says it all: "More Guns, Less Crime." Lott gathers statistics from all over the world that convince him that more guns mean less violence. (Technically, a little less violence.)

OK. No non-statistician can even get through Lott's book, and only another statistician can check his figures, math, and deductive powers. The thesis sounds crazy, but lots of true things sound crazy.

Now check the reviews on Amazon. To put it mildly, people who seem to have some statistical training raise serious, serious questions about Lott's method. Yet the book gets four stars, because NRA types love the title.

And the tone of their own reviews is generally, "I know he's right 'cause I want to believe him. And if you think me an' John are wrong, you're a liberal asshole or a liberal liar!"

Without reading and minutely analyzing "More Guns, Less Crime," I can't judge the soundness of Lott's work. (Those who have, tend to be unconvinced.) But what could possibly create the effect?

If it's the fear that a victim might be packing a .45, as the zombies insist, then why isn't the decline in rapes and murders far greater? And wouldn't teargas/pepper spray work almost as well?

Are violent criminals really so prudent and well-informed that they don't strike if local gun-ownership statistics say a victim might be armed? Are they so stupid that they don't jump from behind, knife or gun in hand to neutralize the "equalizer"? When they rob liquor stores, don't they get the drop on the clerk, making sure he (or she) can't reach for his hogleg? And aren't they *more* likely to shoot him if he does?

But never mind my own skepticism. The real subject is knee-jerk zombies. For them - watch my lips - it's a theological debate.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 10:01 AM

He'll have a job to convince a jury that he didn't know what he was doing, given the meticulous planning involved.

Meticulous planning is something paranoid schizophrenics are typically very good at. Look at the complexity of these delusional systems and the amount of sheer sustained work that went into developing them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Tilly_Matthews (see the book "The Air Loom Gang" for the details)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_W%C3%B6lfli

http://crazygail.com/Main_Page (there is far more weird stuff by her on the web than any sane person could ever read and watch)

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 10:47 AM

Well, as compelling it may be to think about defending yourself from crime with your gun, it is far more likely that your gun will be used by a family member to kill themselves or to accidentally kill another loved one.

Guns are the second leading cause of death in young men after car crashes.

If there is no gun present, then no one will die from a gun.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 11:50 AM

". The real subject is knee-jerk zombies. For them - watch my lips - it's a theological debate."

Ok, Lighter... I think you have said it pretty succinctly. It is NOT a matter of logic for them. Their ummmm... 'souls'... are committed to "more guns".



But...*sigh*... mine is committed to some semblance of reason & logic, and though I don't expect to convince all the olddudes of the world, I post my best reasoning for "the record" in hopes it might help someone who is undecided whether to fill their closet with AK-47s.....

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 12:39 PM

Jack Campin.... I could not resist peeking at Crazy Gail's pages. I had to tear myself away.....scary!

What immediately popped into my head was the philosophical/logical principle: "From false premises, anything follows." The point is, it doesn't require that anyone be as crazy as Gail, or follow such extreme flights of fancy. All that is required is to adopt one or two beliefs that cannot be substantiated, and they can then proceed to entire systems of thought & action that are thus by definition merely 'opinion'. In some cases, these are benign and harmless, but sometimes they lead to activities dangerous to society.
   George Zimmerman had certain beliefs that led him to act in ways that led to the death of Trayvon Martin. He probably still 'believes' that his actions were 'justified', even if they didn't turn out the way he hoped.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,999
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 12:50 PM

Dan, I apologize if you think my remark was a reference to you. I know your history and the chickenshit remark was NOT aimed in your direction.

The people who accosted me were chickenshits, period. In neither circumstance would me having a gun have helped me. If somehow you think anyone would have been better off armed in that theater I'm willing to be educated. If you think for a second I would not have put myself between any of your kids and that shooter then maybe you don't know me at all. That killer had easy access to weapons--the result is more than 60 people killed or wounded. Find the folks who sold him the weapons and charge them with accessory to murder. But we know that won't happen.

And now my erstwhile friend, I will leave this thread too.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 12:54 PM

It's the human condition. The monkeys run the zoo.

I was about to say that even monkeys evolve, but I don't need the hate mail.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 03:47 PM

Whatever one thinks about some of the things that "Old Dude" has posted, his daughter had a very close call, far from home. As parents, we all know the emotions that kick in when our children are threatened, or harmed, and we know that they often play out more intensely after the danger has passed. So Dan, we're with you...

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 04:03 PM

Olddude is not one of the monkeys.

If he were, he'd be in Congress.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 04:27 PM

With all due respect, should the US government decide to make war on guns, even with the things "collectors" hold in the USA - there is no contest against the military that invented "shock and awe". An armed militia is no defence whatsoever against the US military if deployed.

The recital that rationalises the 2nd amendment is no longer relevant.

I should however point out a technicality "The right of the people (etc)" does not create a right. It refers to such right as there may be and if the right is diminished then there is still a right that shall not be infringed.

It would have been easy enough to say "Every person shall have the right to bear arms" - and even then it might have been easy to distinguish between swords and rapiers and knives, on the one hand, limited magazine rifles and pistols (let's think, Winchester up to 15 rounds, the Henry 16 rounds, Colt 45 up to 6, some revolvers 7) and true machine guns like Gatling (and Gardner and Nordenfeldt).

The English were wiser in 1689 to enact "the Subjects which are Protestants may have Arms for their Defence suitable to their Conditions and as allowed by Law" - and of course that was the parent for the US drafting in the US Bill of Rights (itself a compromise measure).


Despite the folly of the US wording, the Supreme Court of the USA has ruled that such right is "to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home"


The idea that the US constitution allows all and any weapons is irrational and dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 04:52 PM

"The idea that the US constitution allows all and any weapons is irrational and dangerous."

Of course it is! Many of us realize that... and I even see it expressed by 'some' commentators & politicians. But $$$$$ seem to override common sense for many. It's the price we pay for a vaguely worded constitution.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 06:09 PM

> The idea that the US constitution allows all and any weapons is irrational and dangerous.

That is absolutely true, and only real lunatics believe otherwise. Few want mom and dad to have an M-60 machinegun around the house, or a Stuka dive bomber, for example.

And the courts have never suggested that such things should be legal.

The real problem, however, as several people have said, is first, that there are 200,000,000 legal guns already and probably 100,000,000 illegal ones in the hands of gangsters who at least have had the decency not to blast everyone in a crowded theater.

And second, that it's too freaking easy for dangerous people to get guns, and to get 100-round Holmes-style ammo drums so that they don't even need to reload very often. And with a population of 300,000,000, you can imagine how many people are potentially dangerous.

But most aren't. There's the rub. The challenge is to improve the situation. In theory the Second Amendment could be revised or repealed by Congress and a vote of two-thirds of the states, but remember that, at least till now, Congress won't even repeal the gun-show loophole. Also, it's bad precedent to mess directly with the Bill of Rights.

I wonder now whether the amendment was ambiguously phrased on purpose. Maybe the framers couldn't quite come to agreement either, except for the point that a musket-armed citizenry would help to deter the aggressors of the day, and would allow frontiersmen to defend themselves forever against raids by Indians, Frenchmen, Spaniards, and the British. Under that hypothesis, they'd be leaving it for posterity to sort out.

Someone must know.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 06:13 PM

Dr Who

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 06:28 PM

There is one point about the concept of arming your children which nobody has addressed.

With the exception of those intensively trained members of organisations such as the military, police FBI, CIA etc., who have actually taken one or more human lives in pursuit of their duties, there are very few normal human beings who can point a gun at a fellow human and pull the trigger.

If Dan arms his children, he can certainly teach them gun safety and handling, but he can't overcome that hesitation inbred in us when it comes to killing a person.

Inevitably the kids will hesitate, but their opponent won't, and then you have the situation described above, in which they die in a hail of bullets, and a lot of others with them. Add in a number of similarly hesitant civilians who don't have proper training and.........well, you work it out.

The body armour of course means that they would have to ignore the rule of aiming for the centre of body mass, and take the much more difficult head shot.

Double?.....Treble?......Quadruple the number of victims?

I seriously doubt that anybody but a cop or a soldier could obtain a successful outcome.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Janie
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 09:51 PM

From the Raleigh, NC News & Observer this morning

Gun Rights Group Pressures TV Station

Even so, keep posting and talking to people, Bill. Most seeds never germinate. Even so, the world is full of growing plants from the few that do.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 10:22 PM

Thanks, Janie... Copernicus & I appreciate the vote of confidence
:>)...

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 08:17 AM

How many cases are there, really, where an armed citizen has saved himself or others by whipping out a pistol? I've read of such cases in the news (it seems usually to be a granny for some reason), but they seem to be very, very rare. And newsworthy.

I'm not talking about scaring off a home invader at midnight. I'm talking about people packing guns in public and using them to fend off or to shoot actual criminals.

Obviously it happens, but how frequently in comparison to the 10,000 gun killings per year?

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 08:42 AM

You're not looking in the right place, Lighter. You need to check the Kansas, Arizona and South Dakota newspapers from 1880.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 09:20 AM

Interestingly, the comprehensive U.S. Government report, "Violence in America," found as follows:

"The homicides that [typically] occurred [in the Old West] almost inevitably resulted from gunfights between willing participants."

In other words, there wasn't much back-shootin' *or* crazed killin'.

That Federally funded study was published in 1969 (that's 42 years ago) during the conservative Nixon administration.

The researchers got their information from Old West newspapers, not horse operas and Edge novels.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 10:05 AM

Do you really know what a policeman is? Do you? it is a private citizen who took a job to uphold the law. A private citizen who is highly trained with weapons (usually).   You know who trained him .. ME !

If you do not have the skills, no you should never go near a firearm or even once think of carrying. And yes I myself stopped a knife attack with a handgun with only pulling it out. And yes I would have used it had I been forced to.

It doesn't make news because it ain't the granny but it happens every day. You know who else carries, lawyers, judges, ex police, FBI, CIA, Justice dept retired people. All Private Citizen. If you never owned a weapon, know nothing about weapons then you do not know what your are saying ..

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 10:49 AM

Armed, professional, and highly trained law enforcement officers have little in common with with armed, unpredictable, and indifferently trained or completely untrained, non-uniformed citizens wearing pistols around town just in case.

I'm happy that you scared away your assailant. There's one incident right there.

But my question was, How often does this happen? And how does the number of such occurrences compare with 10,000 annual gun homicides?

The answer appears to be, Who knows?

Whether responsible people like Supreme Court justices carry concealed weapons has no connection to keeping guns away from criminals and unstable people who have no business running around armed.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Megan L
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 11:22 AM

If anyone found in possession of a firearm was taken out and shot perhaps people would eventually stop having them. I doubt it but mankind is to stupid to be allowed near anything dangerous even those who seem clever.

Subject: RE: BS: Another wacked out guy with a gun....
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 11:35 AM

"If you do not have the skills, no you should never go near a firearm or even once think of carrying."

Oh, that makes perfect sense.

But our problem seems to be that most of those who buy & sell firearms seem to think that, by virtue of the 2nd amendment, all they need to know is which end the bullets come out and where the trigger is!


In my area (DC Metro), there were 'only' two gun deaths reported on the news last night... one shooting in a 'bad neighborhood' and one 4- year old boy who found a loaded pistol in a truck and accidently shot himself.

I'll see what tonight brings.