From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 03:57 PM

Gibb-

"Haul away, yeo ho boys"

Might have been a rowing shanty. Nice to have one documented so early in the 19th century.

Oh, I ran across this on-line Nordhoff book titled NINE YEARS A SAILOR, 1866, which includes all three of his previous books: U. S. Naval Service, American and British Merchant Marine, and Whaling Service: Click here for website

There's a great description of sailors on leave in 1848 Valparaiso.

I was hoping to find my "missing" illustration of the screw-jack team but no such luck.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 05:05 PM

OK, for fun, here's my marriage of "Grog" and "Doodle."

GToD

I am also showing where I think the rowing might happen. The only other possibility I'd envision is constant rowing. Given the two options, I went for this style, with rests in between and which corresponds to the pace of a halyard chantey. Your thoughts, rowing-masters?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 08:03 AM

I like what you've done with "Grog Time of Day", Gibb, and thanks for the summary sheet on this. I would definitely say that this song is well attested early on and it's interesting that it survived down to at least 1916. It might be worth checking out fiddle tunes to see if Mr. Chisholm's verse shows up anywhere else.   I was trying to find out something more on Landsman Hay, but it doesn't seem that there is anything available on the net. I was just at the library yesterday and didn't think to check on that one.

I'm wondering if it's possible that what is quoted is really one song rather than two. Could the "Two sisters courted one man," part be the verse and the "Grog tme of day, boys" be the chorus? The quote itself does not really make clear whether we are dealing with two songs or two parts of one song. It just says "And the second:" Hugill does not clarify this.

Two sisters courted one man,
   Oh, huro, my boys,
And they live in the mountains,
   Oh, huro boys, O.

    Grog time of day, boys,
    Grog time of day,
       Huro, my jolly boys,
       Grog time of day.

I've not been able to find anything else resembling the two mountain dwelling sisters, although the two of them courting one man obviously has overtones of the Child ballad "The Two Sisters", which could have been sung in Jamaica, although I know of no record of that. It was a popular ballad and took many different forms such as the widely known Virginia version "The Wind and Rain".

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 08:35 AM

John-

I've been assuming both bits were parts of a single song, verse with mini-chorus followed by grand chorus.

I wouldn't be surprised if this same song showed up in the lumberjack camps. However, there's no mention of such a song in Doerflinger.

Of course, while I was reviewing Doerflinger I reread his account of "the rise of shantying" and he makes reference to a small volume titled THE QUID, London, 1832, which describes shantying on a voyage to the Orient on an East India Company ship:

"Pull Away now, my Nancy, O!"
and two forebitters:

"Jemmy Taylor"

And another interesting one without title with this verse:

"Oh! if I had her,
Eh then if I had her,
Oh! how I would love her
Black although she be."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 08:54 AM

And another interesting one without title with this verse:

"Oh! if I had her,
Eh then if I had her,
Oh! how I would love her
Black although she be."

Hugill goes on to speculate whether the fragment above is related to the Scottish song "Were You Ever in Bumbarton."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 09:02 AM

I want to give an example of how my "multiple categories of multiple attestation" might work when applied to an actual chanty. From the list above of "multiple attested early chanties with documentation and lyrics", I have chosen to look at "Sally Brown".

While we know that she was sung on board the "Quebec" in April of 1937, we can't prove that she was sung on board the "Julia Ann" between San Francisco and Sydney in 1853-1855. However, by applying these categories of multiple attestation, we can get a sense of the historical and geographical spread of this chanty throughout the 19th and early 20th centuries. This gives some substance to establishing an historical context for imagining how "Sally Brown" might have been sung on board the "Julia Ann".

This is going to be a long posting so I will break it up into several parts. I have tried to be as thorough as I can within the limitations of my own library, my abilities on the internet, and my access to the library at UVA. I make no claims at being "complete" in my listings. They are meant to be thorough and suggestive. I will begin with what I call the "Category of Published Collections". This has a good deal of other information in it, which I will highlight later. For now take a look at how often and when "Sally Brown" shows up in collections of chanties.

"Sally Brown" (Part 1)

Published Collections   (24)

Davis & Tozer, 1886
Luce, 1883/89 (1902) [topsail halyards]
L.A. Smith, 1888 [capstan]
Bradford & Fagge, 1904
Masefield, 1906 [halliards, {1891-95}]
Whall, 1909-1910 [East Indiamen, {1861-1872, with shipmates who sailed before 1815},capstan-anchor; "not a hauling song"]
Patterson, 1913
Sharp, 1914 [Charles Robbins,London, pulling-chantey]
    "O Row, Heave and Go" [Mr. Allison of Perth]
    "Roll and Go" [Short of Watchet]        
Bullen, 1914 [{1869-1880}, weighing anchor & flywheel pumps]
King, 1918 [capstan]
Terry, 1921 [windless and capstan]
Colcord, 1924 [windless and capstan
Shay, 1924 [capstan, {1915}]
Frothingham, 1924
Carey, 1924/25 [George Pattison/capstan & Malcolm Forbes]
C.F. Smith, 1927 [getting up the anchor/(capstan)]
Mackenzie, 1928 [Daniel & George Hughton, Pictou, NS]
Carpenter, 1929-1955
        {1863} J.S. Scott, London, England, August, 1929
        {1864} James Wright, Leith, England
        {1867-1885} Jack Murray, Aberdeen, Scotland
        {1868} Captain Edward B. Trumbull, Salem, MA, 1927
        {1869} Robert Yeoman, Dundee, Scotland
        {1872 -whaler} James Henderson, Dundee, Scotland
        {1883} Thomas Ginovan, Bristol, England, 1928
        {1885-1902} Alex Henderson, Dundee, Scotland
        {1888-1889} George Simpson, Dundee, Scotland
        {1908} Benjamin Bright, 1929
        A.E. Foster, Sailors Snug Harbor, Staten Island, N.Y., 1927
        Francis Herreschoff, Marblehead, MA, 1927
        Stanton King, Boston, MA, 1928
        David Burrell, Scotland [capstan]
Bone, 1932
Greenleaf & Mansfield, 1933 [Capt. John Gullage, {1929}]
Doerflinger, 1951[capstan, windless, & pump] [Richard Maitland {1869}, Capt. Patrick Tayluer {1885}] - with additional bibliography
Hugill,1961 {1922-1945} [hauling, capstan] [Harding: log-rolling]
         has 5 variants of refrain
   Tobago Smith's "Walkalong, You Sally Brown" [halyards]
   also from West Indies "Tommy's on the Tops'l Yard" [halyards]                     
Harlow, 1962(1928) [ capstan, {March 19, 1875}]
Abrahams, 1974 ["Feeny Brown"]

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 09:23 AM

"Sally Brown" Part 2

Please note that the "Published Collections" on "Sally Brown" are listed chronologically by date of publication. This is often later than the actual collection or recording of the song and certainly later than the song was actually sung at sea. The dates within "{1800}" are the approximate dates having to do with actually "being at sea". More on this in a bit.

Here is the second category of multiple attestation, what I am calling "Published Mention". By this I mean mention made of a chanty in publications other than "Chanty Collections", such as travel narratives, historical documents, fiction, magazine articles, etc. I have tried to determine if and when someone has copied from a previous source to avoid duplications. This is not always easy. As far as I can tell, these are "independent" attestations, of somewhat uneven quality. Once again, these are in chronological order of publication.

Published Mention

Marryat, Capt. C.B., A DIARY IN AMERICA,1839 [windlass,halyards, {April, 1837}]
Sauzade, John S., GARRET VAN HORN; OR THE BEGGAR ON HORSEBACK, 1863, [windlass]
Adams, Robert Chamblet, ON BOARD THE "ROCKET", 1879 [as "Blow, My Bully Boys, Blow"]
Mason, John, BEFORE THE MAST IN SAILING SHIPS, 1884
Runciman, James, SKIPPERS AND SHELLBACKS, 1885
Gaunt, Mary, "The Loss of the 'Vanity'", THE ENGLISH ILLUSTRATED MAGAZINE, 1892
King, Stanton Henry, DOG-WATCHES AT SEA, 1902
Whitmarsh, H. Phelps, "The Chantey-man", HARPERS MAGAZINE, Vol. 106, Dec 1902 - May, 1903
Wragge, Clement Lindley, THE ROMANCE OF THE SOUTH SEAS, 1906
Melony, William Brown, "The Chanty-Man Sings", EVERYBODY'S MAGAZINE, July- Dec, 1915 [topsails to the masthead]
Robinson, Capt. John, "Songs of the Chantey-Man," THE BELLMAN, July 14 -August 4,1917 {1859-60}
Weld, Frederick, ed. SONGS OF THE SEA, 1919 [YMCA]
Adams, B.M. "Port Some Day", THE OUTLOOK, Vol. 127, January to April, 1921
Minnigerode, Meade, "The Laughing Elephant", NEW OUTLOOK, Vol. 128, May 4-August 31, 1921
Fletcher, R.A., IN THE DAYS OF THE TALL SHIPS, 1930
Thompson, Harold W., BODY, BOOTS, AND BRITCHES, 1939 [from "Old Man Cuffee" who died at age 82 in 1938]
Hurley, Frank & Shane Murphy, SHACKLETON'S PHOTOGRAPHER, 2001 {October, 1914}, footnote 38]
Walton, Ivan, Joe Grimm, & Loudon Guthrie Wilson, WINDJAMMERS, SONGS OF THE GREAT   LAKES SAILORS, 2002, [1932, from Harry and George Parmalee,
    capstan hauls (Capt. William E., "Billy" Clark of Buffalo) and halyards (Capt. Thomas   Hylant)]
Davis, A.K., Jr., FOLK-SONGS OF VIRGINIA, 1965, [from George Basil Hall of Middleburg, VA, August 5, 1930's?]

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 09:34 AM

"Sally Brown" Part 3

My third category is what I am calling "Historical Informants". I don't care for the word "informant", and would like an alternative. In a number of the published collections and "mentions" above, the names of actual informants are given, and sometimes the dates for when they actually went to sea or were at sea. Some of these are precise and some are approximate and some are outright guesses. I welcome corrections and better information wherever it can be found.

In this listing, the historical {dates} are given first when they are available. In a few cases I only have the earliest date of publication. These are obviously chronological.

Historical Informants

{April, 1837} Marryat, Capt. C.B. [windlass, halyards]
{1859-60} Robinson, Capt. John
{1861-1872} Whall, 1909-1910 [East Indiamen, with shipmates who sailed before 1815, capstan-anchor; "not a hauling song"]
{1863} J.S. Scott, London, England, August
{1864} James Wright, Leith, England
{late 1865 (Lighter, 2/26)} Adams, Robert Chamblet, [as "Blow, My Bully Boys, Blow"]
{1867-1885} Jack Murray, Aberdeen, Scotland
{late 1860's (Lighter 2/1)} Harding & perhaps Tobago Smith
{1868} Captain Edward B. Trumbull, Salem, MA
{1869} Robert Yeoman, Dundee, Scotland
{1869} Richard Maitland
{1869-1880} Bullen, [ weighing anchor & flywheel pumps]
{1870s} "Old Man Cuffee" who died at age 82 in 1938        
{1870s} George Pattison/capstan & Malcolm Forbes - "old men" in 1924-25
{1872} James Henderson, whaler - Dundee, Scotland
{March 19, 1875} Harlow, [capstan]
Luce, 1883/89(1902) [topsail halyards]
{1883} Thomas Ginovan, Bristol, England
{1885} Capt. Patrick Tayluer         
{1885-1902} Alex Henderson, Dundee, Scotland
{1888-1889} George Simpson, Dundee, Scotland
{1889-1901} Colcord, [windless and capstan]
{1891-95} Masefield, [halliards]
{October, 1914} Hurley, Frank & Shane Murphy, SHACKLETON'S PHOTOGRAPHER, 2001, footnote 38]
{1908} Benjamin Bright
Sharp, 1914 Charles Robbins, London, [pulling-chantey]
        Mr. Allison of Perth
        Short of Watchet
{1915} Shay, [capstan]
{1922-1945} Hugill [hauling, capstan]
A.E. Foster, Sailors Snug Harbor, Staten Island, N.Y., 1927
Francis Herreschoff, Marblehead, MA, 1927
Stanton King, Boston, MA, 1928
David Burrell, Scotland [capstan]
{1929} Greenleaf & Mansfield, [Capt. John Gullage]

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 09:55 AM

"Sally Brown" Part 4

I would count each of these "historical informants" as an independent attestation. I count about 37 people. The dates, at sea, range from 1837 to 1945. There is still only one confirmed date prior to about 1870. However, it could be said that most if not all of these men sailed with others who were much older and whose experience at sea could well have included the early 1850's. I think that it is important to consider the scope of memory in the oral tradition here.

My next category of multiple attestation has to do with the actual use of a particular chanty at sea and on shore. In some cases these categories are a little vague. For instance, Doerflinger simply puts his examples from Maitland and Tayluer in the category of "Capstan, Windless, and Pump Shanties" without being specific. I am presenting this information twice. First simply by chronological publication date, and secondly by usage, again chronologically.

Use & Function

By Chronological Publication

Marryat, Capt. C.B., 1839 [windlass, halyards, {April, 1837}]
Sauzade, John S., 1863 [windlass]
Luce, 1883/89(1902) [topsail halyards]
L.A. Smith, 1888 [capstan]
Masefield, 1906 [halliards, {1891-95}]
Whall, 1909-1910 East Indiamen, {1861-1872, with shipmates who sailed before 1815}, [capstan-anchor; "not a hauling song"]
Sharp, 1914 [Charles Robbins,London, pulling-chantey]
    "O Row, Heave and Go" [Mr. Allison of Perth]
    "Roll and Go" [Short of Watchet]        
Bullen, 1914 [{1869-1880}, weighing anchor & flywheel pumps]
Melony, William Brown,1915 [topsails to the masthead]
King, 1918 [capstan]
Terry, 1921 [windless and capstan]
Colcord, 1924 [windless and capstan
Shay, 1924 [capstan, {1915}]
Carey, 1924/25 [George Pattison/capstan & Malcolm Forbes]
C.F. Smith, 1927 [getting up the anchor/(capstan)]
Carpenter, 1929-1955 (David Burrell, Scotland [capstan])
Doerflinger, 1951[capstan, windless, & pump] [Richard Maitland {1869}, Capt. Patrick Tayluer {1885}] - with additional bibliography      
Hugill,1961 {1922-1945} [hauling, capstan] [Harding - log-rolling] has 5 variants of refrain
   Tobago Smith's "Walkalong, You Sally Brown" [halyards]
   also from West Indies "Tommy's on the Tops'l Yard" [halyards]                     
Harlow, 1962(1928) [ capstan, {March 19, 1875}]
Walton, Ivan, Joe Grimm, & Loudon Guthrie Wilson, 2002, [1932, from Harry and George Parmalee, [capstan hauls] (Capt. William E., "Billy" Clark of Buffalo) and [halyards] (Capt. Thomas Hylant)]
---
Use by category and historical chronology of time at sea

Windless, halyards, pulling, hauling:

{April, 1837} Marryat, Capt. C.B.[windlass, halyards]
Luce, 1883/89(1902) [topsail halyards]
{1891-95} Masefield, [halliards]
Sharp, 1914 Charles Robbins, London, [pulling-chantey]
        Mr. Allison of Perth
        Short of Watchet
{1889-1901} Colcord, [windless]
{1922-1945} Hugill [hauling]

Capstan, pumps:

{1861-1872} Whall, 1909-1910 [East Indiamen, with shipmates who sailed before 1815, capstan-anchor; "not a hauling song"]
{1869-1880} Bullen, [ weighing anchor & flywheel pumps]
{1870s} George Pattison [capstan]
{March 19, 1875} Harlow, [capstan]
{1889-1901} Colcord, [capstan]
{1915} Shay, [capstan]
{1922-1945} Hugill [capstan]
David Burrell, Scotland [capstan]

Not only was "Sally Brown" popular at sea and widely remembered for a long time, but it was widely used for a number of different functions. I am not able to see any particular historical pattern with regard to early/later usage. This chanty seems to have been used for multiple purposes almost from the beginning of it's recorded history.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 02:28 PM

"Sally Brown" Part 5

Versions & Variants

Each of the sources listed in the "Published Collections" category gives an independent "version" of "Sally Brown". This is somewhat the case with regard to the sources listed in the "Published Mention" category as well, but perhaps not in every case. In a number of these latter publications, we only get a title or a single verse and that verse is usually one or another of the key opening verses. I count roughly 50 different versions.

In addition to these different versions, there are also several "variants" of "Sally Brown" that have been collected, as well as the use of the "Sally Brown" lyrics with other chanties. I list them in chronological order.

{after 1865} Adams, Robert Chamblet, 1879 "Blow, My Bully Boys, Blow"
{1891-95} Masefield, 1906 "Tommy's on the Tops'l Yard" [halyards]
{1861-1872} Whall, 1909-1910 "Hilo, Johnny Brown" [halyards]
Lubbock, Basil, 1910 DEEP SEA WARRIORS "Hilo, Johnny Brown" [halyards]
Sharp, 1914 "O Row, Heave and Go" [Mr. Allison of Perth] [halyards]           
        "Roll and Go" [Short of Watchet][capstan]        
Terry, 1921(1926?) "Hilo, Johnny Brown"
Dingle, Aylward Edward, 1935, PIPE ALL HANDS, "Hilo, Johnny Brown" [halyards]
{1922-1945} Hugill,1961 "Walkalong, You Sally Brown" [Tobago Smith] [halyards]
        "Tommy's on the Tops'l Yard" [halyards]
        "Hilo, Johnny Brown" [halyards]
        possible combinations with "Shallow Brown"
{1960's} Abrahams, 1974 "Feeny Brown"

This category gives some sense of the diversity of "Sally Brown". There are at least seven different variants here and there are probably others that I have overlooked. Each source mentioned for a variant represents a particular version. This gives us about 12 more versions.   We thus have at least 62 different versions of a chanty having to do with "Sally Brown". I think that they are all independent of each other.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 07:18 PM

The following "Capstan Song," printed on shipboard during a voyage from Boston to Calcutta in 1862, is the earliest known version of "Santa Anna." (From Rev. Thomas H. Stacy, "Rev. Otis Robinson Bacheler, M.D., D.D., Fifty-Three Years Missionary to India," 1904.) Note the "General Jackson" verses:

General Taylor gained the day,
Hurrah Santa Anna!
General Taylor gained the day
All on the plains of Mexico.

He gained the day at Monterey,
Hurrah Santa Anna!
He gained the day at Monterey,
All on the plains of Mexico.

Santa Anna ran away,
Hurrah Santa Anna!
He ran away from Monterey,
All on the plains of Mexico.

General Jackson's at New Orleans,
Hurrah Santa Anna!
General Jackson's at New Orleans,
All on the plains of Mexico.

'Twas there he gave the British beans,
Hurrah Santa Anna!
'Twas there he gave the British beans,
All on the plains of Mexico.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 07:35 PM

A very early ex. of the chorus, "Roll and go," though not associated with "Sally Brown."

From Isaac Baker's diary aboard whaleship "Taskar"(Sept. 11, 1842), in Margaret S. Creighton, "Rites and Passages" (1995), p. 178:

        The Taskar is the thing to roll
        O ee [sic] roll & go
        Her bottom's round as any bowl!
        O ho roll & go

If you substitute "Sally Brown" for "Taskar," you get a mild enough stanza that even so would not likely have been "printable" in the 19th C. - or in any of the best known 20th C. shanty books, for that matter!

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 07:53 PM

Not quite "Sally Brown," but sung by slave boatmen while rowing on the Cape Fear River in North Carolina and written down (with a very simple tune) in 1830. From David S. Cecelski, "The Waterman's Song" (2001):

Sally was a fine girl, ho! Sally, ho!
Sally was a fine girl, ho! Sally, ho!

The "collector," Moses A. Curtis, noted: "repeated ad infinitum and accompanied by a trumpet obligato by the helmsman."

Another case of a shanty-like rowing song.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 08:01 PM

And let's not forget "Sally Brown" by the Cuba-born Jamaican ska singer, Laurel Aitken:

//
Let me tell ya bout Sally Brown
   Sally Brown!
Let me tell ya bought Sally Brown.
    Sally Brown!
Sally Brown is a gal in town
She don't mess aroun'

Sally Brown is a slick chick
If you mess around with Sally...she'll hit you...with a kuku maka stick!

kuku kuku kuku kuku maka stick,
hit ya with a kuku maka stick!
//

That's the first "Sally Brown" song I ever heard :)

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 08:25 PM

If you were a little older, you'd heave heard this one. The year: 1826.

Isaac Starr Clason, "Horace in New-York," 1826, p. 46: "The present Manager of the Chatham Garden Theatre, was formerly a Lieutenant in the British Navy. He was afterwards on the boards of the Norwich Company in England. He was principally applauded for singing a common sailors' chant in character, having a sort of 'Sally Brown, oh, ho,' chorus; and requiring the action of pulling a rope, spitting upon the hand, and the accompaniment of a horrid yell. In private life, both Mr. and Mrs. Wallack were much respected."

Clason's use of the word "chant" is almost as significant as "Sally Brown," "pulling a rope," and "a horrid yell." This could be the earliest clear reference to a "sea shanty as we know it," complete with Hugill-style "hitch"!

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 09:14 PM

Lighter, thanks for the "Santa Anna" and the two (possible) references to "Sally Brown". Both of them seem to fit. I will add them to my list. That gives us two more early independent informants and two more possible variants and versions, as well as two very interesting geographical references, which I will be looking at next.

And Gibb, I immediately went and listened to the Laurel Aitken song. I like it.   So what's a "kuku maka stick"?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 09:19 PM

I forgot to look before I posted. Thanks for another reference Lighter.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 10:31 PM

Lighter-

"Wallack" seems a very interesting character, ex-Royal Navy and theatre. Somewhere in his life he also must have served in the merchant marine. Are there any more details?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 12:10 AM

Glad you asked, Charley.

Acc. to the Gentleman's Magazine of 1839, it was Wallack's brother Henry who was in training as a midshipman around 1808. The teenaged James ran off to join him and wound up sailing briefly and unofficially on the French coast with his cousin George Allen Field, who happened to be commander of the gun brig "Desperate" (great story, eh wot?). Wallack's parents induced him to return to the stage by promising him the role of Hamlet.

Wallack had a long and distinguished acting and managing career after that.

So it looks as though he may have picked up his "chant" of "Sally Brown" at sea, or at least in port, without ever "serving" in any official capacity. While it could have been as early as 1808, there's really no telling. He could have learned it at second hand much later.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 08:28 AM

Lighter-

Wouldn't it be great if his "journal" surfaced in the archives of the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich; you never know unless you enquire.

It's also got the making of a great story, not to mention another screen play featuring Johnny Depp.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 10:55 AM

Here are three possible additional variants for "Sally Brown":

{late 1860's (Lighter 2/1)} Harding, "Roll Boys, Roll" [halyards]
{March 19, 1875} Harlow, "Way Sing Sally" [hand over hand]
{1922-1945} Hugill, "Shenandoah(d)" [capstan & windlass]

Lighter, thanks for the further information on Mr. Wallack. I have him down as another independent witness, along with Mr. Baker, and Mr. Curtis. Any idea where Mr. Baker was doing his whaling?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:11 PM

"Sally Brown"   Part 6

And now, I want to look back over this information with an eye to geographical spread. Some of these references are very specific and some are more than a bit vague. In most cases it is impossible to know where a particular person heard "Sally Brown". All we know is that the person was in various places and at some point or points sang or heard the song.

Geographical Usage

{1808-?} Mr. Wallack , off the French coast
{1830} Curtis, Moses A., "Sally Was A Fine Girl", Cape Fear River, North Carolina
{April, 1837} Marryat, Capt. C.B., Portsmouth, England, on Western Ocean packet to New York
{Sept. 11, 1842} Baker, Isaac, "The Tasker is the thing to roll", a whaler
{1859-60} Robinson, Capt. John
{1861-1872} Whall, 1909-1910 East Indiamen
{1863} J.S. Scott, London, England,
{1864} James Wright, Leith, England
{late 1865 (Lighter, 2/26)} Adams, Robert Chamblet, [as "Blow, My Bully Boys, Blow"] from Boston to the E. Indies by way of    Richmond, VA, also Maryland to Denmark - voyages on two different ships. Specifically hears "Walk along, my Sally Brown" in Genoa, Italy as Virginia tobacco is being unloaded (p. 102)

{1867-1885} Jack Murray, Aberdeen, Scotland
{late 1860's (Lighter 2/1)} Harding, West Indies, British, American and Blue Nose (Nova Scotia) ships
        & perhaps Tobago Smith, West Indies
{1868} Captain Edward B. Trumbull, Salem, MA
{1869} Robert Yeoman, Dundee, Scotland
{1869} Richard Maitland, Atlantic, San Francisco, Blackball Line to Liverpool, Hong Kong, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, Scotland

{1869-1880} Bullen, [ weighing anchor & flywheel pumps] Bournemouth, England; West Indies, Gulf of Mexico ports
{1870s} "Old Man Cuffee" who died at age 82 in 1938, a whaler, from Sag Harbor, NY        
{1870s} George Pattison/capstan & Malcolm Forbes - "old men" in 1924-25, Kangaroo Island, South Australia
{1872} James Henderson, whaler - Dundee, Scotland
{March 19, 1875} Harlow, [capstan], from Boston to Melbourne and Sydney, Java, and back to NY
Luce, 1883/89(1902) [topsail halyards]
{1883} Thomas Ginovan, Bristol, England
{1884} John Mason, [anchor capstan] San Francisco, CA
{1885} Capt. Patrick Tayluer, from Boston, throughout the British Empire, Africa
{1885-1902} Alex Henderson, Dundee, Scotland
{1888-1889} George Simpson, Dundee, Scotland
{1889-1901} Colcord, [windless and capstan] Portland (ME)-Buenos Aires-Rosario- Boston, New York-Penang-Singapore-Shanghai-Hong Kong-New York; Portland (ME)-Buenos Aires-Rosario-Boston, New York-Port Elizabeth-Durban-Newcastle(NSW)-Mollendo-Astoria-Portland(OR)-Santa Rosalia-Victoria(BC)-Tacoma, New York-Hong Kong-New York

{1891-95} Masefield, [halliards]
{1902} King, Stanton Henry, [windlass] Philadelphia, on the Delaware River, outward bound to Japan
{1908} Benjamin Bright
{October, 1914} Hurley, Frank & Shane Murphy, Shackleford Expedition to Antartica        
Sharp, 1914 Charles Robbins, London, [pulling-chantey]
        Mr. Allison of Perth
        Short of Watchet
{1915} Shay, [capstan], off the coast of Yucatan (?)
Terry, 1921 [windless and capstan]
{1922-1945} Hugill [hauling, capstan], Liverpool, England; Cape Horn, West Indies, Cape Verde Island
A.E. Foster, Sailors Snug Harbor, Staten Island, N.Y., 1927
Francis Herreschoff, Marblehead, MA, 1927
Stanton King, Boston, MA, 1928 (from Carpenter)
David Burrell, Scotland [capstan]
{1929} Capt. John Gullage of Newfoundland
{1960's} Abrahams, 1974 ["Feeny Brown"] Tobago/St. Kitts

Does anyone have geographical information on the following:

Captain Robinson
Admiral Luce
John Masefield

And is there a coherent account anywhere of Hugill's travels? Please feel very free to make corrections on any of this and to add to it as you've been doing.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:33 PM

Here is the link for the "Rocket" account (actually on board the "Dublin" - I think), of hearing "Walk along, My Sally Brown" in Genoa, Italy, while tobacco from Virginia is being unloaded:

http://books.google.com/books?id=7v1IAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA102&dq=Walk+along,+my+Sally+Brown&cd=2#v=onepage&q=Walk%20along%2C%20my%20Sal

Unfortunately no words are given so we can't know for sure is this is the same "Walkalong, You Sally Brown" that Hugill got from Harding much, much later. But it does count as another variant.

There are two geographical references to San Francisco:

{1869} Richard Maitland, San Francisco (it is impossible to know whether Maitland heard/sang "Sally Brown" in San Francisco or not on that trip.
{1884} John Mason, [anchor capstan] San Francisco, CA (This is a clear identification):

http://books.google.com/books?id=JirozwWDDaMC&pg=PA66&dq=Sally+Brown+was+a+bright+mulatto&lr=&cd=8#v=onepage&q=Sally%20Brown%20w

Later Mason again mentions "Sally Brown" sung while heaving anchor on the Mersey:

http://books.google.com/books?id=JirozwWDDaMC&pg=PA118&dq=She+drinks+rum+and+chews+tobacco&lr=&cd=7#v=onepage&q=She%20drinks%20r

At least we know she was in San Francisco, even it the date is 1884.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 08:25 PM

John-

Unfortunately we don't have a clue whom C. Fox Smith collected her traditional shanties from, including "Sally Brown" which she had this to say in A BOOK OF SHANTIES, © 1927, p. 20:

"It was usually sung when getting up the anchor; in Mr. Cecil Sharp's collection it is given as a hauling shanty, but I have never come across a sailor who had heard it so used."

The shanty lyrics she provides would certainly make a fine halyard shanty, however:

Sally Brown she's a bright mulatto --
Way-AY, roll and GO!
She drinks rum and chews tobacco --
Spend my MONEY on Sally BROWN!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 09:01 AM

"Sally Brown" Part 7

I want to turn my attention this morning to what I have loosely called:

"Genre Usage"

Way back on the first of February, I put up a tentative list of different "genres". This is not a very good word for this, but maybe it will work for now. Here is the post:

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=374#2827215

I was trying to see how a chanty might have traveled from one area of life at sea to another, or at least to see how widespread it might have been. What we managed to demonstrate was that the documentation for the use of these chanties by Slave Traders, Pirates, Whalers, etc. is pretty slim to non-existent. But it did lead us on to a good look at the African American influence on chanties and to what I think is a very fruitful hypothesis by Gibb about the origin of "chanties, proper". [ If you are just coming to this thread, you will have to take the time to back up and catch up.]

My category of "Genre Usage" is a revisiting of this earlier attempt. When we look at "Sally Brown" in this light, we do turn up some interesting information. Looking at the "Historical Informants" list, here is what I have.

{1830} Curtis, Moses A., "Sally Was A Fine Girl", Cape Fear River, North Carolina as a rowing song

note: I wonder if "Sally Brown" might have begun as a "rowing song".*

{April, 1837} Marryat, Capt. C.B., Portsmouth, England, on Western Ocean packet to New York
{Sept. 11, 1842} Baker, Isaac, "The Tasker is the thing to roll", a whaler
{1861-1872} Whall, 1909-1910 East Indiamen
{late 1865 (Lighter, 2/26)} Adams, Robert Chamblet, "Walk along, my Sally Brown" in Genoa, Italy as Virginia tobacco is being unloaded.
{late 1860's (Lighter 2/1)} Harding, West Indies -Jamaica in the 1930's as a "log-rolling" song
{1869} Richard Maitland, Atlantic, San Francisco, Blackball Line to Liverpool, Hong Kong, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, Scotland
{1869-1880} Bullen, [ weighing anchor & flywheel pumps] Bournemouth, England; West Indies, Gulf of Mexico ports
{1870s} "Old Man Cuffee" who died at age 82 in 1938, a whaler, from Sag Harbor, NY        
{1870s} George Pattison/capstan & Malcolm Forbes - "old men" in 1924-25, Kangaroo Island, South Australia
{1872} James Henderson, whaler - Dundee, Scotland
{March 19, 1875} Harlow, [capstan], from Boston to Melbourne and Sydney, Java, and back to NY
{1884} John Mason, [anchor capstan] San Francisco, CA
{1885} Capt. Patrick Tayluer, from Boston, throughout the British Empire, Africa
{1889-1901} Colcord, [windless and capstan] Portland (ME)-Buenos Aires-Rosario-Boston, New York-Penang- Singapore-Shanghai-Hong Kong-New York; Portland (ME)-Buenos Aires-Rosario-Boston, New York-Port Elizabeth-Durban-Newcastle(NSW)-Mollendo-Astoria-Portland(OR)-Santa Rosalia-Victoria(BC)-Tacoma, New York-Hong Kong-New York
{1902} King, Stanton Henry, [windlass] Philadelphia, on the Delaware River, outward bound to Japan
{October, 1914} Hurley, Frank, Shackleford Expedition to Antartica        
{1915} Shay, [capstan], off the coast of Yucatan (?)
{1922-1945} Hugill [hauling, capstan], Liverpool, England; Cape Horn, West Indies, Cape Verde Island
{1929} Capt. John Gullage of Newfoundland
{1960's} Abrahams, 1974 ["Feeny Brown"] Tobago/St. Kitts

We have "Sally" as a rowing song in the Tidewater region of North Carolina. We have her at least known by three whalers: Baker, Cuffee, and Henderson. She sailed on the Western Ocean packets: Marryat and Maitland. She was used by the East Indiamen (Whall). She was used for loading and unloading according to Adams in Genoa, Italy. She was used in Gulf Ports trade (Harding, Bullen, Shay), and in the West Indies (Harding, Bullen, Hugill, Abrahams). She probably made it out to the Far East (Adams, Maitland, Harlow, Colcord, King). And she did go around the Horn to San Francisco according to Mason. And she was used in the Australian trade according to Harlow, Pattison, Forbes, Colcord, and perhaps Hugill (did he sail to Australia?). She was known in Canada by Gullage and probably traveled there with others (Maitland), and could have been used in the timber business there. And finally she was perhaps used on a trip of exploration to Antartica (she shows up in a footnote to the Shackleford Expedition. [ I haven't seen this book and don't know what the footnote is referring to.]

Once again, it is probably safe to say that she got around, and was popular with all kinds of folks, for most of the 19th century and on into the 20th century.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 09:23 AM

"Sally Brown" Part 8

I think my next category for multiple attestation, which I have called "Historical Usage" has already been covered above by the the "Genre" discussion. It was my intention to focus "Historical Usage" on the various commercial enterprises that were current at sea in the 19th century and later, and to see where "Sally" put in an appearance. Here is a summary of that information.

We know she was being used on board the Western Ocean packet liners in the 1830's. She might have been used in the whaling industry. She was used by the East India Traders. And she was used by the Tobacco Traders from Virginia to Italy. She was probably used in the Gulf Port, probably by the Cotton Traders. And she was known in the West Indies (and may well have originated there), which would have possibly put her in the sugar, rum and molasses trade, (as well as maybe on board the Slave Traders and with some Pirates as well). She was used in the lumber business in the West Indies and Honduras.

She sailed to the Far East at least to Java, and probably to China and Japan with the tea ships. She went around Cape Horn in the San Francisco trade, at least in the 1880's. And she went to Australia with that trade. Since she was known in Canada (Newfoundland), she could have been involved with the timber traders there and the coastal traders down to the West Indies. One might say that "Sally Brown" was a vital asset to the maritime commerce of the 19th century.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 09:56 AM

John-

You were asking about Hugill's voyages as a sailor. One might be able to piece together what ports he had visited from his book SAILORTOWN, Routledge & Kegan Paul, London, UK, © 1967. He did in short travel the world, including the Orient, the west coast of South America and the Pacific Northwest.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 11:20 AM

Thanks, Charley, for the suggestion about Hugill. I found it strange that there doesn't seem to be what I would call a "coherent" account of his time at sea, *that I have come across*. I don't have his SAILORTOWN, and I suspected that this might be the best source. But you would think someone might have summed it up. I will leave that job to somebody else.

Here's the beginning of my last category, on "Sources".

"Sally Brown" Part 9 (a)

This final category of multiple attestation has to do with the issue of "sources" for a particular chanty that come from places other than the world of sea chanties. Here I am thinking about the following:

The shape/form of the song
The tune or tunes used by the song
The lyrics that become attached to the song
Actual songs that may have served either as models or as actual sources for the chanty

With regard to the first, Gibb has called "Sally Brown" one of those African American work songs that take the shape of "Call-response-call-response form (with the 2 "pull points" per response)". Hugill says that it has the shape of a "hauling" song, and we know that it was used as a halyards song, and for pulling. It was also used at the capstan, the windlass, and pumps, and unloading cargo. And if the song noted by Moses Curtis in 1830 on the Cape Fear River in North Carolina is a version or perhaps even an antecedent of "Sally Brown", then it was also used for rowing. So the form of "Sally Brown" was adaptable, and this may be one of the reasons for its popularity and its widespread survival over the last two hundred years or so.

The basic tune of "Sally Brown" apart from it's variants, seems to have remained fairly stable throughout its history. I am no musicologist and can't even read music notation so I will have to leave this area to someone more qualified. The differences that I can see in the various notations seem to fall within what one might normally expect with the actual usage of such a song. I would say that the song is characterized musically by its first chorus "Way, hey, roll and go!", and it often took this as its title.

In listening to contemporary renditions of this song, it seems to lend itself rather easily to "celtic" interpretations. This might suggest that the tune originally came from Irish or British sources. However, for me this mainly shows up in the second refrain, and I think that it gets elaborated somewhat in a "celtic" direction sometimes and that it's not really possible to go backwards with this reasoning. But this song may be a candidate for one of those Afro-American/Irish combinations. One could speculate that the elements of the tune arrived one day in Jamaica and was rounded out there with the unforgettable images of "Sally Brown" herself.

We have an abundance of different lyrics for this song. And here we enter into a murky and difficult area of discussion. I would like to refer you first of all to Gibb's comments on his Youtube version of "Sally Brown" for an introduction to this issue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVUn_v3jIZA

It seems that at some point in the history of the use of "Sally Brown", the issue of "political correctness" entered the picture. What is interesting to me is to try to figure out when that might have happened, or perhaps more accurately, how often! When I was going through my collection of chanty CDs, I was surprised to find that I had very few recordings of "Sally Brown". I wondered why this might be the case. She just doesn't show up on a lot of the more standard or popular collections. I suspect that even though there are politically correct historical versions of this song available in the literature, that chanty singers may have felt some discomfort about singing this song. In today's terms, it is racist, sexist, and exploits women as prostitutes. And it does this by combining all of these things into the inimitable image of "Sally Brown". And then some versions throw in her daughter for good measure! The language is definitely 19th century and blunt. One might argue that it is hard to sing this song in any kind of "authentic" fashion without falling into a nest of minefields.

But, is this just a contemporary problem? In some versions, "Sally" is a white girl with blue eyes from New York City. Was there a tendency in the latter part of the 19th century to move this song away from its roots, and white-wash it? Or is this merely a contemporary concern. I think that this part of the discussion may be for another time or even another thread. I suppose if one could actually document a "white-washing shift" over the course of the 19th century, one might, using Marrayt's version as a benchmark, be able to put different sets of lyrics into different time categories. However, I think this won't work, because the "Sally Brown was a bright mullato" version remained popular alongside of other versions to the very end of the days of sail, and continues to be popular today. As has been argued by others previously, it is very hard to determine very much about the history of a chanty from its lyrics.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:28 PM

Great stuff here!! Very exciting.

John, with your Part 9a you're moving into dangerous waters...there be pyrates and sea monsters...but it is my favorite place, and one where, in my opinion, discussions too infrequently venture.

Musical form is the main part. Hugill, for example, does a poor job addressing this. It is reflected by his wacky organizational scheme which goes, "oh, and hey, another song that mentions the name 'Johnny' is this one here..." He is very text-centric / lyric-centric despite his comments about the floating nature of chantey texts. To my knowledge, chanties have yet to be "sorted" on the basis of musical analysis -- by which I suppose I mean melodic and rhythmic content. (We have been sorting them by musical form, in a way, by talking about call and response, choruses, etc, though that is also partly textual.)

There are several difficulties. One is the relative high ambiguity of musical material in "pointing" towards this or that cultural sphere, region, etc. It's a bit like asking what languages a certain letter combination, say /bla/, belongs to. That could suggest English to some ("black"), but Arabic to another ("tabla"), etc etc. In other words, while these features would seem to exclude some origins, they also *include* far too many. By way of example, to me, "Sally Brown" doesn't evoke anything "celtic" in its tune. But even if I manage to put my finger on and explain what makes it sound like it belongs to "African-America" to me, that is very far from proving it is not "celtic." Consequently, I've no reasonable cause to doubt that it sounds Celtic to John. Musical language -- or at least the parts that are easily notated -- is so limited that it must necessarily be shared among cultural groups and it cannot tell us so much without more clues 'n' context.

As we well know, those clues don't come through in simple music notation. What's more, the music notation in the older texts was even less able to cope with representing features that might give clues. I suspect, for example, that some of the weird chromatic passages in some collector's notations, reflects the fact that people had yet to deal with the issue of "blue notes." To hear the singing of such "blue notes" might influence us to strongly suspect an African-American source. But set down on paper as a bland, equal-tempered (think piano) pitch, the "spelling" of the notes might make the phrase look equally Italian (or whatever).

It is not hopeless, however. One need not try to pin a certain music form to a certain culture group. Again, I like "African-American"....which in my mind shades off dangerously close to just "American," for its inherent ambiguity and mixed nature. The early stars of the minstrel stage and its composers were mainly of Irish descent. It seems that they were trying to evoke songs of Blacks on one hand, but were very much speaking through their own, familiar musical language, on the other. And I've really no idea if one could say whether these tunes could be said to have this or that degree of this or that ethnic music to them...only that they were something in themselves that one might study. I am sure that if one were to analyze all the chanties musically, some kind of groupings would emerge. These may not be very clear with regards to ethnicity or geography, but they may say something about source genres or time periods.

Incidentally, I had delivered a paper about Hugill's chanties at a conference in Liverpool. Much of it happened to be about issues of representation that John is touching upon... and , even more incidentally, if was frustrating because I felt much of my audience did not want to engage the issues because they were quite biased towards the very idea of me trying to tell them anything about chanties. After all, the English are the only proper shanty-singers, right?! It was funny that out of a room of scholars who are ostensibly trained to study music and culture objectively, regularly discovering that musical phenomena are not what they seem in popular knowledge, that this birth-right sort of confidence ("We know all about shanties") would block a dialogue. So I was actually refreshed to get a question from a non-British person (some one from continental Europe) who was of a more musicologist sort of bent, and who was mostly just curious if, after learning Hugill's shanties, I had observed any specific, quantifiable musical characteristics. At least that was something relatively objective to talk about. (And if you'll permit me one tiny moment of negativity: I am so glad we have a topic like "shanties" to talk about here, as opposed to the dire "What is folk?" discussions on Mudcat that seem hopelessly confounded by people's notions of their cultural heritage.)

I want to mention two other anecdotes/examples, just to think about (not directed towards any really specific point). First is that I've a subscriber to my YouTube channel, from North America, who I've noted consistently responds (i.e. comments) more favourably to chanties that I feel have an "American" bent to their melodies. And behind this particular notion of American goes the musical language that emerged from African-American culture. I'd guess that this person is not consciously aware of these musical traits, but that rather they are responding, as an American, to something familiarly American.

Second anecdote is the case of Dick Maitland, who sang for Doerflinger. The way he allegedly sang "Leaving of Liverpool" is quite distinct for a certain melodic pattern. He uses a pattern of "DO ti sol" that, I feel, is rare in these songs. So rare, perhaps, that it was counter-intuitive to the revival singers who picked up the song. I'm not sure who was the first, but whoever rendered it from the printed page accidently -- although I'm sure musical inclination was the influence -- changed the pattern. And what we have today im the revived form is much more "agreeable" to the common "ear." I was thinking about this again recently because I was trying to learn a variation on "Banks of Newfoundland" sung by Maitland. It contained the same queer melodic pattern. I'd venture to guess that this was something particular about Maitland's musical language -- it is that distinct. (Analogous to a certain pattern that I hear in some Jamaican singers of the 60s, which sounds like they'd been copying the personal "language" of Curtis Mayfield!)

Something *can* be done with musical analysis. However, we are crippled by the poor notations. A good number of chanties in Hugill's modern text are just flat our wrong in their notation. It has nothing to do with singers' variation; it is pure incompetence. But the usual, basic issue is the simplicity of notation that wipes away what may have been distinctive, clue-giving traits. As for recordings: Of the recordings of living chantey singers that exist, I am skeptical of their range. Not only the fact that they are invariably far past their prime, and even farther from actually context (Who yelps out a blood-curdling halyard chantey whilst sitting in an easy chair across from a genteel folk-song collector?), but the historical time period, their ethnicity, etc make them limited.

Briefly: The issues of political correctness, mimetic awkwardness, white-washing (or blacking-up, as the case may be!), and other ethnicity confusion and how they have affected the course of chantey-singing is one of my great interests... and I think best for another thread :) Still, it helps some to be aware of the issues, when analyzing data. But ultimately, the value of this kind of consideration is that it helps us not to make assumptions...but doesn't tell us anything positively. Whall might have preferred blue-eyed damsels because he was a bit racist and wanted to change the essence of the text, but equally likely was that Sailor John (of any stripe) just felt like loving a blue-eyed gal at that moment.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 09:43 AM

I don't think we have this "Sally Brown" reference (?)

SEA DRIFT, 1858.
The author, Hercules Robinson, served in British warships against Napoleon. He states that when he first shipped, as a young boy, the officers just shouted commands through speaking trumpets.

'They were not allowed to do their work with such a song as Dickens commemorates--

"Oh Sally Brown, Sally Brown, oh!
She won't have a Yankee sailor, oh!
Cos she loves the nigger tailor, oh!" '

Sea Drift

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 10:50 AM

"Sally Brown" Part 9 (b)

Thanks, Gibb. I appreciate your fine response. It goes to the heart of some of the questions I was trying to raise in my last post. I realize that I moved into some deep water full of all kinds of things and that I am not at all competent to navigate them. So I appreciate having a pilot.

With regard to the "music" issue in all of this, I keep thinking about what Bronson did with the Child ballad collection tunes. It was usually way beyond me how he grouped different tunes into different "families", but it seemed important, and when I actually focused down on a particular version it was fascinating to discover the relatives. And in some cases, it did establish a link between a Virginia tune, say, and one from England. But of course, one of the great lacunas in Child's work, along with Sharp's work in the Southern Appalachians, and thus also in Bronson, although I think he tried to pay attention to it, was the absence of "Black" music. There is one verse of "Barbara Allen" collected by Sharp right here in Nellysford from an old, ex-slave woman. If only he had taken down the whole song and it had survived!

My comment about the "celtic" sound of "Sally Brown" has more to do with some revivalist interpretations, and especially their instrumental breaks with banjos and fiddles and accordions and penny whistles and bohdrans, etc., than with my own sense of the song. The tune gets twisted in these breaks and seems to move away from itself.

On the other hand, as much as I might wish that I did know more about Jamaican and West Indian music forms, styles and history, I just don't and will have to leave that to someone else. My own personal sense is that this song is West Indian in origin, and certainly - for me - not from Liverpool, but I can't prove it.

Going to the question of origins and predecessors, if we accept for the moment that Mr. Curtis' account of hearing "Sally was a fine girl" as a rowing song on the Cape Fear River in North Carolina, in 1830, as an early version of what became "Sally Brown", it raises some intriguing questions. And I'm thinking about the songs in Parrish's book about the Georgia Sea Islanders. While she doesn't have a version of "Sally Brown", she has other songs that were used for rowing. I've never known quite where to place these Georgia Sea Islander songs in my chronological picture. Do they pre-date the use of of these worksongs as chanties at sea later, or have the chanties come back ashore and been adapted for rowing? Or, is it likely that the situation back and forth was always a lot more fluid as it surely must have been with the dock-side loading songs.

Mr. Curtis has (in his own hand with music notation!}:

        "Sally was a fine girl,
        Ho, Sally, ho!"

Seven years later, Marryat has:

        "Sally Brown, of Buble Ally,
        Oh! Sally Brown.
        Sally Brown - oh! my dear Sally.
        Oh! Sally Brown."

To me there seems to be a definite relation. And if you - not me - put in the pulls, maybe that tells us even more. But it doesn't tell me which way the current was flowing. In fact I would probably conclude that some version or versions of the song was being used both at sea and on the river at the same time. Again, the parallels with the dock-loading songs are obvious. We have "Sally Brown" raising the anchor in Portsmouth in 1837 and roughly 30 years later we have her unloading tobacco in Genoa, Italy!

And then we have Mr. Isaac Baker the whaler singing in 1842:

"The Taskar is the thing to roll
O ee roll & go
Her bottom's round as any bowl!
O ho roll & go!"

While he was overtly singing about his good ship the "Tasker", it is not hard to see how this imagery was transferred over to (or from) "Sally Brown". In fact this passage shows up in a contemporary study that was discussing the sexual fantasy life of whalers and how they tended to conflate their thoughts about their beloved ships and women. It is hard to know whether this verse reflects an earlier stream of song that fed into "Sally Brown" or ongoing parallel traditions or is simply independent of it entirely. I think it is definitely connected myself.

And thanks to Lighter we have that delightful note about Mr. Wallack's performance of "Sally Brown" complete with "yelps", from possibly as early as 1808, but at least by about 1825. While it is impossible to know where Wallack learned this song, this note would indicate that "Sally Brown" was fairly well known as a recognizable song that early.

So we have two definite sightings before 1850 and two probables/maybes. And perhaps we have some hints about sources or at least parallel uses. And it's interesting that these two fragments from Curtis and Baker show up from other contexts, rowing and whaling. I think we can almost catch a glimpse of some of the different pieces that came together to form "Sally Brown". I realize that this may be overly optimistic and that my "pieces" post-date what is clearly an already formed chanty but it is a fact that oral traditions continue right along side of written ones, and just because we have written notice in 1808/1825 and in 1837, doesn't mean that these other two fragments weren't passed down from earlier periods.

And, Gibb thanks for the addition from Hercules Robinson! I had a power outage while I was working on this post and lost half of it and had to reconstruct and didn't recheck Mudcat in between. That's a great find. It seems like I've seen that "Dickens commemoration" somewhere. I'll have to go back through my unorganized pile of stuff.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 01:11 PM

Well, I haven't come across any clear reference to "Sally Brown" the song in Dickens, but I'll keep looking into that. However, I did come across two other rather interesting items. First of all, I am wondering if there could be any connection between our "Sally Brown" the sea chanty lady, and this poem by Thomas Hood called "Faithless Sally Brown", published in THE UNIVERSAL SONGSTER in 1825, as "Young Ben, the Carpenter, and Sally Brown":

http://books.google.com/books?id=VWQLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA11&dq=Universal+Songster+%22Ben+the+Carpenter%22&lr=&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=fals

It shows up in a number of publications throughout the 19th century and was apparently very popular. It has one line in it which goes: "Oh Sally Brown, Oh Sally Brown". Of course the influence could have gone the other way and Mr. Hood may have been aware of the sea song "Sally Brown". And, once his poem was written, it may have reacted back on the chanty. Anyone have thoughts on this? I can't exactly tell what "minstrel" means in this context. Was his poem picked up and used by the blackface minstrels? Or was there a broader meaning to the word back then in England.

The second interesting item is from one of the speeches of Abraham Lincoln, given to "the Springfield Scott Club" on August 14, 26, 1852, in which he quotes a verse from Captain Marryat's "Sally Brown" referring to her as a "bright mulatter". Lincoln says,

"Now, should Pierce ever be President, he will, politically speaking, not only be a mulatto, but he will be a good deal darker one than Sally Brown." !

http://books.google.com/books?id=_ZxLW2uomIgC&pg=PA157&dq=%22Oh+Sally+Brown%22++Collected+Works+of+Abraham+Lincoln&lr=&cd=1#v=on

This doesn't indicate that Lincoln knew "Sally Brown" as a chanty, per se, but that he was familiar with Marryat's work, which apparently was also popular. However, the fact that Lincoln quotes this verse in a speech would indicate that his audience would know what he was talking about - maybe - with regard to the song itself. Here is another discussion about Marryat from TAIT'S EDINBURGH MAGAZINE of 1839:

http://books.google.com/books?id=reERAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA554&dq=%22Oh,+Sally+Brown%22&cd=6#v=onepage&q=%22Oh%2C%20Sally%20Brown%22&f=f

The interesting thing here is the reference to "the Yankee salt-water lyric of Sally Brown". Does this indicate a sense that this was a song of American origin? There are many quotes of Marryat's whole passage on "Sally Brown" in the literature of the time according to Google.

The existence of Hood's popular poem, the popularity of Marryat's book and account of "Sally Ann" and the example of Lincoln's use of the latter in a political speech, raises the interesting question of the influence of published works on the oral tradition of "Sally Brown". Using the examples of both "broadside ballads" and published versions of the "Child ballads" and their influence on the "folk process" of the singing of these songs in the 19th century, and later, we might get some sense of how this worked in the realm of chantydom as well. However, I'd be the first to say that I cannot document any direct links here. There does seem to be the potential for some muddying up of the waters though.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 03:13 PM

I've found another great source to consider re: the "genesis of chanteys" topic. I don't seem to remember it being discussed before.

It is fiction, and the date is 1869, so there is that possibility it was drawn from elsewhere. But whatever the case, the material is great.

THE ARK OF ELM ISLAND by Elijah Kellogg

The narrator keeps remarking on Black people's tendency to sing as they work. "...a nigger can no more work without a song, than a Frenchman can talk if you tie his hands."

The Ark has a crew of "Portland [Maine] darkies," and amongst them is a "chanty-man" named Isaiah Phillips.

The work songs, "habe no merit of composition, being the merest trash."

"The songs of the negro seamen generally refer to their labor-- hoisting or stowing molasses, or screwing cotton, which is severe labor, where unity of effort is of the first importance; and here the negro's accurate ear renders them most effective, and they will accomplish more, with less fatigue to themselves, than white men....they will put in the queerest quirks and quavers, but all in time."

An anecdote is told, during which a work song is quoted -- a variant of what Hugill called "Hooker John":

"Eberybody he lub someting
    Hoojun, John, a hoojun
Song he set de heart a beating
    Hoojun, John, a hoojun"

That's the first reference I recall seeing to that chantey. Usually people take Hugill's text and start speculating what "hooker" is. (I myself have speculated it was "hoosier.")

The narrator mentions ad-libbing.

The crew was manning the windlass, and "Isaiah" sings, intriguingly, what is obviously a variation of "Stormalong":

"Wind blow from de mountain cool
    O, stow me long
Mudder send me to de school
    Stow me long, stow me"
[etc -- more, completely incidental verses]

Later, the cook songs a song, just for joy. It is none other than one of my favourite chanties, "Hilo, boys, a hilo."

Then the workers "struck up a still quicker tune, intermingling with the words most singular yells and quavers."

They thn haul out with a hand over hand chantey that I don't recognize, with a chorus of "Hand ober hand, O"

THEN they walk away with the rope. The song quoted os another "Fire down below," yet one that looks like it could have been "The Sailor Fireman" cited by Hugill.

Much later in the story, while not at work, someone sings "Highland laddie" (pg 255).

Interesting that nowhere are the songs referred to as "shanties/chanties," although, as in Nordhoff, "chanty-man" is referred to (twice). It is after Clarke mentioned "chanty-man" in 1867, and before Alden finally says "shanties" in 1869.

The passage starts around pg 117

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 03:43 PM

addendum:
Apparently it is thought by some that "hoosier" (well, the Indiana/Kentucky reference) comes from "hoojin." So maybe my guess at "hoosier john" (i.e instead of hooker john) wasn't so far off!

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 04:43 PM

Gibb-

Great find! And it's interesting for those of us familiar with the Black sailors who were long time residents of Portland, Maine, to see them documented at least in some literary fashion.

I've learned to associate the term "hooker" as used by sailors as generally referring to ships: i.e., "I'll not sail in that old hooker again!" The "hook" itself is a reference to the ship's anchor.

Edwin J. Brady also composed a nautical poem titled "Sally Brown."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 07:59 PM

Well, this is my third try for this post. Gibb, that truly is a great fine. I really like "Oh Stow Me Along, Stow Me". All of those songs had to come from somewhere. I don't think they could be a product of pure fiction. Especially since they show up later in the chanty tradition.

Charley, do you have a link for the Brady poem? I think I remember you mentioning him earlier. I'd like to see that. I find it fascinating that "Sally" has a literary tradition of her own!

And Gibb, I'm glad you were able to get some satisfaction on the "hoosier" issue.   I tried to track that one down and got completely swamped by those folks from Indiana. I still don't quite understand how they got to be "hoosiers". I know that it doesn't have anything to do with football! But then, "Roll Tide!" is not a sea chanty either. I hope you guys are having a fine Saturday night.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 08:10 PM

John-

Sure! I've been posting a new set of nautical poems to the Edwin J. Brady thread here at Mudcat and here's a link to "Sally Brown": click here for poem

It's really a shame that we can't talk with Brady but he really was a good observer of sailors and stevedores in and around the docks at Sydney and Melbourne in the late 1890's and early 1900's.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 09:30 PM

Thanks, Charley, for the link. I enjoyed that. And, Gibb, I didn't mean to "fine" you, but to thank you for that great "find".

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 10:29 PM

Here's another nice source that mentions riverboat songs that may be connected wih our chanties. These were observed in 1853 by Frederick Law Olmsted, in his A JOURNEY IN THE SEABOARD SLAVE STATES.

While going up the Red River to Shreveport, LA, he jotted down these. The Black boat-hands sang, (p608 ff.)

"Ye see dem boat way dah ahead.
CH: Oahoiohieu
De San Charles is arter 'em, dey mus go behine
CH: Oahoiohieu"
[etc -- several more incidental verses]

This song ALSO looks to me like "The Sailor Fireman." It has the right rhythm, and the chorus is close enough. The chorus also reminds me of another river song, "Lindy Lowe", and playing with the vowels in the word "Ohio."

Another song quoted seems to have a phrase similar to "Jonny Come Down to Hilo":

"Ime gwine away to-morrow.
   Oh, John, come down in de holler
Ime gwine away to marry
    Oh, John, come down in de holler"
[etc]

Several verse lyrics are reminiscent of "Shallow Brown".

Elsewhere in the book (pg 26) the author describes a funeral service in which, as people were filling in the grave, an "old negro" "raised a hymn which soon became a confused chant" in call and response fashion "in the manner of sailors heaving at the windlass."
   
On pg 394 there's some yodeling and "rolling the cotton down" of a sort!

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 11:59 AM

Gibb-

I am fascinated with the "chanties" printed in THE ARK OF ELM ISLAND. They all seem traditionally based, although what's called "The Walking Song" is modified to work with the story. Obviously the Rev. Kellogg was very familiar with this type of music. I hope you take no offense, given your discovery of these songs, but I've decided to post the lot of them here:

THE ARK OF ELM ISLAND, by Rev. Elijah Kellogg, published by Lee & Shepherd, Boston, Massachusetts, US, © 1869, p. 128

ISAIAH'S SONG
(warping up to the dock).

Wind blow from de mountain cool,
O, stow me long!
Mudder send me to de school;
Stow me long, stow me!

Den I stow myself away,
O, stow me long!
Way, way to de Isle ob May;
Stow me long, stow me!

Go ashore to see de town,
O, stow me long!
Hear de music, walk aroun';
Stow me long, stow me!

Dere I hear Miss Dinah sing,
O, stow me long!
Washin' linen at de spring;
Ha-a, stow me long,
Stow me long, stow me!
Ha-a, stow me long,
Stow me long, stow me!

Straight I lub Miss Dinah Gray,
O, stow me long!
Dinah lub me, so she say;
Stow me long, stow me!
Get her necklace, get her ring,
O, stow me long!

Happy nigger, shout and sing;
Stow me long, stow me!
Wind a blowin' fresh and free,
O, stow me long!

Vessel ready for de sea;
Stow me long, stow me!
See de tear in Dinah's eye,
O, stow me long!

Berry sorry see her cry.
Ha-a, stow me long,
Stow me long, stow me!
Ha-a, stow me long,
Stow me long, stow me!

Tink ob Dinah ebery day,
O, stow me long!
Wishin' ob de time away;
Stow me long, stow me!

Buy her gown, buy her fan,
O, stow me long!
Dinah lub anudder man;
Stow me long, stow me!

Wish I hadn't been a fool,
O, stow me long!
Neber run away from school.
Ha-a, stow me long,
Stow me long, stow me!
Ha-a, stow me long,
Stow me long, stow me!

Note:

This one's chorus lines are irregular in the original text.

THE ARK OF ELM ISLAND, by Rev. Elijah Kellogg, published by Lee & Shepherd, Boston, Massachusetts, US, © 1869, p. 131

Flour's Song
(warping up to the dock).

De blue-bird robbed de cherry-bird's nest,
Hilo, boys, a hilo!
He robbed her nest, and brake her rest,
Hilo, boys, a hilo!

Cherry-bird chirp, and cherry-bird cry,
Hilo, boys, a hilo!
Cherry-bird mourn, cherry-bird die,
Hilo, boys, a hilo!

De black cat eat de blue-bird now,
Hilo, boys, a hilo!
He catch him sittin' on de bough,
Hilo, boys, a hilo!

He nip his head, he tear his breast,
Hilo, boys, a hilo!
Pay him for de cherry-bird's nest,
Hilo, boys, a hilo!

De gard'ner shoot de ole black cat,
Hilo, boys, a hilo!
Den rat make it tit for tat,
Hilo, boys, a hilo!

De gard'ner pull him down de tree,
Hilo, boys, a hilo!
Den dat square de yards, you see,
Hilo, boys, a hilo!

THE ARK OF ELM ISLAND, by Rev. Elijah Kellogg, published by Lee & Shepherd, Boston, Massachusetts, US, © 1869, p. 133

Hand Ober Hand
(warping up to the dock).

Cuffee stole my bacca,
Hand ober hand, O!
Scratch him,
Hand ober hand, O!

Put it in his pocket,
Hand ober hand, O!
Kick him,
Hand ober hand, O!

Now he's gwine to smoke it,
Hand ober hand, O!
Bite him,
Hand ober hand, O!

THE ARK OF ELM ISLAND, by Rev. Elijah Kellogg, published by Lee & Shepherd, Boston, Massachusetts, US, © 1869, p. 133

Walking Song
(warping up to the dock).

Take de line, an' walk away,
Ho-o; ho, ho, ho!
Gwine to leabe you; cannot stay,
Fire down below!

Gwine to leabe you, Johnny Bull,
Ho-o; ho, ho, ho!
'Cause yer dunno how ter pull,
Fire down below!

Like as do dis Yankee crew,
Ho-o; ho, ho, ho!
Warpin' ob de ballahoo,
Fire down below!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 01:30 PM

Summary and Conclusions for "Sally Brown" Part 10

It's amazing to me but I feel like we've really only just begun to do our study of "Sally Brown". My aim with the discussion of this song as been four-fold. First of all I wanted to actually apply my "categories of multiple attestation" to a particular chanty to see what kind of information we might gain from this approach. Second, I wanted to take this opportunity to organize the known sources chronologically so that they are easier to access for a historical study. I deliberately chose a chanty that I already knew would have lots of references in order to do this. Third, I wanted to learn as much as I could about a particular chanty and "Sally Brown" happens to be one of my favorites. And fourth, I really wanted to see if we could construct an historical context that would allow us to make a reasonable claim for placing "Sally Brown" on board of the "Julia Ann" on her voyages of 1853-1854. For me, and I hope for others, this study has been helpful in all four of these ways.

Obviously, to apply this scheme of "categories of multiple attestation" to a particular chanty is a lot of work if it is to be thorough, and for historical purposes it has to be as thorough as possible. I think it is a successful approach in generating a lot of interesting and useful information. And it did serve the purpose of gathering up and arranging the sources in a chronological order, on a number of different levels. Now that that basic piece of work is done, it should be easier to apply them to the next chanty, if one were to choose to pursue this. I have certainly learned a great deal of specific and interesting information about "Sally Brown". I have a much better sense of the historical and geographical spread of this chanty. And of course all of this information raises as many questions as it resolves. And finally, I think that maybe we did move "Sally Brown" a bit closer to the "Julia Ann".

First of all, we know that "Sally" was in both San Francisco and in Sydney, Melbourne, and Newcastle. We have successfully located her on both ends of the trip. However, we can't pinpoint a date for San Francisco until 1884 {Mason}. The dates for Australia might be as early as the 1870's {Pattison & Forbes}, but at least by 1875 {Harlow}. And we might be able to put her back in San Francisco as early as 1869 if we could pin down Maitland's voyages. So we have a potential spread of 1869 to 1875, and a certain spread of 1875 to 1884.

However, the problem with this information is that we don't have any accounts of "Sally" actually making the voyage from San Francisco to Sydney. We just have her showing up in both places independently of each other. We don't exactly know - or do we? - how she got there with Harlow (I've only read his chanty book. Perhaps his other book gives more detail.) But Harlow's return voyage is by way of the Cape of Good Hope and not Cape Horn. We have no information on the voyages of Pattison & Forbes. And with Mason, San Francisco was a destination point, from the east.

We did turn up three whalers who knew the song, but at this point I don't have any information on where they sailed {Baker '58, Cuffee '70's, and Henderson, sometime before 1872). If any of them were in the Pacific whaling areas, this would be important information, especially with regard to Baker.

We also know that "Sally" was probably in India with the East Indiamen sometime between 1861 and 1872 {Whall}, and that she may have made it on out to the Far East as early as 1869 {Maitland}, and certainly by 1875 {Harlow}, and throughout the remainder of the 19th century {Colcord} and on into the 20th century {King & Hugill}. But we still don't know how she arrived in Australia. There is no mention of her on the immigrant ships or the Australian Traders, per se, unless Harlow counts for this. Once again, all of these dates are later than the 1850's.

We can put "Sally" on the Liverpool packets in the 1830's with Marryat and generally up and down the Eastern Seaboard of North America from Nova Scotia to the West Indies and also in the ports of the Gulf of Mexico. These dates range from 1830 {Curtis}, to 1865 {Adams}, to the later 1860's {Harding & Tobago Smith}, to 1869 {Maitland & Bullen}, to 1885 {Tayluer}, to 1889 {Colcord}, to 1902 {King}, and so forth. And we know that ships sailed from all of these areas, as well as England and Australia and Europe and other places to California in the decade of the Gold Rush, from 1849-59. But we can't actually put "Sally" on a single ship going around Cape Horn that I know of at this point! Unless by inference we put her on board of Mason's ship. I have to go back and read his account more carefully. If I recall correctly, she comes on board his ship in San Francisco with another crew.

On the other hand, she seems to have been somewhat well-known and popular in England as early as 1825 and maybe earlier {Wallack}, and she seems to have been well known enough to be referred to as an example by Lincoln in Springfield, Illinois, in 1852 in a political speech! And thanks to Marryat, she enjoyed literary popularity throughout the 19th century.

In conclusion, it would seem reasonable to think that "Sally Brown" was probably known and sung on board the ships heading for California during the Gold Rush, and that she was hanging around San Francisco when the "Julia Ann" sailed in 1853. And it seems reasonable to believe that she perhaps made some of the voyages on the "Julia Ann", as a capstan chanty or at the halyards, or perhaps to load and unload coal or grain, but probably not Mormons.

Future research on "Sally Brown" needs to focus on the literature of the Gold Rush. Somewhere above, Charley Noble has provided us with an extensive bibliography on this era. So, Charley, where is that research assistant that I asked you about?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 01:45 PM

Thanks for the effort, Charley! Pfft, why would I take offense?; rather, I am just very lazy when it comes to re-typing lyrics!

Although I cannot say whether the walkaway shanty was indeed used for that task in real life, however, I see no good reason why it couldn't be. If it is, as I suspect, a variation of what Hugill called the "Sailor Fireman," then it went along much like "Sacramento," and as such I think it would work just fine. Hugill had taken it from a 1850 collection of African-American songs, so we do know a water-related work-song of this strain was existing by then. I am also excited that the song in the 1853-observed SLAVE STATES text also bears similarity to the fireman song. I hope John M. might consider adding this song to the batch of possible 1853-era shanties.

What excites me more is the completely incidental/topical/ad-libbed nature of verses of the songs in the last two references I posted. Also, please compare them to the ART OF BALLET song earlier in the thread. While as Lighter stated, and in which I am in agreement with, the shanties were often identified by one or more "regulation verses," I think these were good examples of the kind of chantying that was pure "framework."

The narrators in these accounts are quite sympathetic to the singing of Blacks. The second one even has an abolitionist's agenda of reaffirming the value of Black expression. It makes me think of the idea of "ethnosympathy" -- which is a term (I believe) coined by Prof. Jon Cruz of UCSB in reference to the phenomenon whereby non-Blacks in the U.S. began to listen to Black singing sympathetically. Whereas in earlier times, Black expression may have been regarded as mere "noise" or "rude" singing, in their effort to humanize Blacks, abolitionists cited Black musical expression and talent as one way of demonstrating that they were indeed human beings and not chattels. The first author takes the interesting tack of showing the superiority of the United States to Britain due to her rich and varied population, including African-Americans. It is not their physical strength but their adaptability -- their willingness to utilize singing as a tool (as opposed to the British's supposed stuffy unwillingness). And the ART OF BALLET praises the Black singers for their ability to be topical.

However, both authors still appear to critique the Black songs as being of low standard in their texts (lack of rhyme, irregular number of metrical feet, and all that). I think it's likely that the aesthetic of creating incidental/improvised verses in this manner was something more valued in African-American (and indeed African) musical culture. For this reason, the emphasis on that went under-appreciated by the observers.

Incidentally, another approach to take to the material that John as laid out (e.g. for "Sally Brown") would be to compare the references in light of the ethnic backgrounds of who was said to be singing them (where texts are available, that is). Is there any difference between the sort of texts sung by Euro-/American and African-American sailors? Did a common aesthetic emerge for chantey-singing? Or did there remain a distinct stylistic difference between sailors of different ethnicities?

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 02:16 PM

An INDEX, of sorts, for the Study of "Sally Brown"

Here are the links for the study of "Sally Brown" on this thread.

An introduction to "Multiple Categories of Multiple Attestation":

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=390#2855290

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=390#2855294

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=390#2855299

Part 1 Published Collections

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=390#2860956

Part 2 Published Mention

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=390#2860968

Part 3 Historical Informants

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=390#2860977

Part 4   Use & Function

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=390#2860990

Part 5   Versions & Variants

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=390#2861214

Part 6   Geographical Usage

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=390#2862168

Part 7   Genre Usage

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=390#2862571

Part 8   Historical Usage

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=390#2862580

Part 9a & b Sources

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=390#2862660

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=390#2863390

Part 10 Summary & Conclusion

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=392#2863993

And finally, Charley Noble's bibliography on the California Gold Rush

thread.cfm?threadid=126347&messages=392#2838945

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 03:00 PM

Very comprehensive and valuable, John.

Bear in mind too that verses of "Sally Brown" were frequently sung also to the tune and pattern of "Shenandoah."

The connection may have been helped by the vague sound similarity between the two names and the presence of a "daughter" in both songs.

John Masefield, author of the beloved "Sea Fever"and much more, trained as a cadet on the school-ship Conway in the early '90s. Chances are he learned "Sally Brown" at that time. AFAIK, he made only two voyages as a sailor: Liverpool to Iquique in 1894 and London to New York the following year. (He came back to England from Chile as a passenger.)

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 03:04 PM

Here's one last "chantey" that I missed harvesting from Rev. Kellogg which is quite a catch:

THE ARK OF ELM ISLAND, by Rev. Elijah Kellogg, published by Lee & Shepherd, Boston, Massachusetts, US, © 1869, p. 152

John John Crow
(halyard chanty)

De cap'n's a driver, de mate is a driver,
John, John Crow is a dandy, O!
Drive her through de water, O, why don't you drive her?
JJohn, John Crow is a dandy, O!

De foam at our fore-foot, rolling white as de snow,
John, John Crow is a dandy, O!
We sail o'er de ocean, and we sing Johnny Crow,
John, John Crow is a dandy, O!

We're saucy to fight, we're nimble to fly,
John, John Crow is a dandy, O!
Like de fish in de sea, like de bird in de sky,
John, John Crow is a dandy, O!

For de Stars and de Stripes we hab fought wid de foe,
John, John Crow is a dandy, O!
Now de fighting is ober, we will sing Johnny Crow,
John, John Crow is a dandy, O!

De fair wind he blowing, nebber cloud in de sky,
John, John Crow is a dandy, O!
We sheet home de royal, and we bid you good by,
John, John Crow is a dandy, O!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 03:38 PM

Here are more references to "Sally Brown." I hope I'm not repeating anything John and Gibb have already discovered.

1897 W. Carlton Dawe, "Kakemonos: Tales of the Far East" (London: John Lane) p.87.

1900 J. E. Patterson, "Sailors' Work Songs," New York Daily Tribune (September 9), p. 10.

1905 Henry C. Lahee, "Sailors' Chanties," The Sea Breeze (Boston), Jan., pp. 13-14.

1909-1910 Basil Lubbock, "Deep Sea Warriors" (N.Y.: Dodd, Mead), pp. 179-181.

1917 W. S. Birge, "The Chantey Man's Songs," The National Magazine, XLVI, p. 284.

1922 Joseph C. Lincoln, "Fair Harbor" (N.Y.: D. Appleton), p. 68. (Refers to 1880s.)

1935 A. E. Dingle, "Pipe All Hands!" (London: Harrap), p. 104.

1939 Capt. Leighton Robinson, rec. for L. of C. by S. R. Cowell (I posted this on another thread a few years ago.)

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 04:45 PM

Almost forgot:

1887 A. McKechnie, "Proosh," Star (Christchurch, N.Z.) (Aug. 24), p. 1.

1892 Hugh St. Leger, "Chanties," Black and White (London), p. 13.

1897 "Dead and Buried," Westminster Budget (London), (Aug. 20), p. 19.

1900 "Chanties," Boston Daily Globe (Sept. 16), p. 43.

1909 "'Sally Brown' Inspiriting Angel," Chicago Daily Tribune (July 4) E3. (Construction workers haul on block and tackle while the leader sets the pace by shouting the words "Sally Brown! Sally Brown!")

1909 "South Polar Exploration," Star (Christchurch, N.Z.) (Nov. 9), p. 1. (Sung by Scott's crew while raising masts.)

1913 "'Sea Songs' Not Sung by Sailors," Kansas City Star (Sept. 26), p. 12B.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: John Minear
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 05:17 PM

I have to say that it is particularly frustrating to write up a post and have Mudcat go down just as you send it off! This has happened several times in the last few days to me. Let me try again, only this time I will do it off line an then copy it.

Lighter, thanks so much for all of these additional references to "Sally Brown" I would really like to know how you came up with them. Now I get to go looking some more. And thanks for the information on Masefield. I knew there must be more information out there on him and his time at sea. I don't think that what you have found changes any of my conclusions but I will think about it. And I had meant to note the "Shenandoah" version as a variant of "Sally Brown", but I may have forgotten to do so.

Charley, thanks so much for going to all the trouble to type out those wonderful chanties from the Ark. I think they are worth a very serious look. Can we track down any additional information about the Rev. Elijah Kellogg to see if we can find out where he discovered these songs? And when I get a chance I will enjoy looking at your Brady thread.

Gibb, thanks for the Olmstead reference. I remember coming across that some time ago, but I didn't look at it very thoroughly. I am particularly interested in the "Shallow Brown" parallels since I've been doing some work on that song lately. I wonder if this raises any questions about the West Indies theory of origin for this chanty. The more I read of these early sources, the more fluid the situation begins to feel. Down the rivers here and across the gulf to the West Indies and then up to Maine and back all the way around. And yes, we will add "Sailor Fireman" to the list of multipli-attested possible pre-1853 era chanties.

I am still working on your "ethnosympathetic" post. This has directly to do with my rather clumsy effort to raise the question about the "invisibility" of Black music to white ears. I am now finding it rather astounding that so much was written down by the white guys. I was particular intrigued by your last paragraph and what it poses for some followup. And thanks for calling attention again to the piece from ART OF BALLET. I slipped right on over that one.

Speaking of sources, does anybody have access to the elusive Captain Robinson's version of "Sally Brown" in the BELLMAN? I have tried to find this on line but apparently it is not out there.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 05:36 PM

I've been getting interested in these "firemen" songs as sources for chanties, and poking around a bit. I'll make a couple-few posts.

More references to the "Sailor Fireman" song )for lack of a better title) from above:

[It is necessary to dis-ambiguate this from other "Fire Down Below" songs. For instance, it seems the one on the following pattern was existing shipboard quite early :

Fire! in the main-top,
Fire! in the bow.
Fire! on the gun-deck,
Fire! down below.

in "Burton's Gentleman's magazine and monthly American review, Volume 5", Oct. 1839]

A dramatic scene in BENTLEY'S MISCELLANY, vol 4, New York, Sept. 1839, taking place in a steamboat. Here's the song.

"THE STOKER'S CHANT.
The ebben tide ib floating past, 
   
Fire down below ! 

The arrival time ib coming fast.
Fire down below! 

Racoon cry in de maple tree,
Fire down below ! 

The wood ib on fire, and the fire a sea,
Fire down below ! 


Oo a oo oh ! fire down below !"

Next,

WE FOUR, by Laura L Rees, 1879. School-girls from Boston were heard singing it at work! Here's the passage:

We had also a party of school-girls on board from an institute near Boston, under the charge of Professor B. and wife, and they brought with them the pent-up fun of the last six months, and it evaporated during their voyage. Their girlish voices were often heard in the beautiful melodies of Sankey, and the captain invariably styled them the " Sweet Bye and Byes." One day, under the superintendence of Captain H., a retired sea-captain, these young ladies hoisted a sail, while the crew stood back and watched the performance. The song, to which their manual movement was an accompaniment, was something after this fashion:

Were you ever down in Baltimore?
Fire down below!
Dancing on the sandy shore?
Fire down below!

chorus.—I'll pull this time,
But I'll pull no more ;
Fire down below !
Pay me my money And I'll go ashore,
Fire down below!

Were you ever in Mobile Bay ?
      Fire down below! 

Picking cotton by the day ? 
      
Fire down below !"

There were several more stanzas appertaining to other seaports of the United States, but as Captain H. was an improvisatore, and varied his solos to suit himself, the two I have given are a fair sample of the rest.

Last, on pg 18 of WHITE'S ETHIOPIAN MELODIES (1854) we have the minstrel version text of the song (i.e. as harvested by Hugill).

Fire Down Below (minstrel)
[My link's not working properly -- it is directing to yet another "fire down below" in the collection. Please go to pg 18.]

Incidentally, Hugill's text is defective in a couple spots, and this one provides the fix.

Subject: RE: From SF to Sydney - 1853 Shanties Sung?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 05:55 PM

I don't know if this has been noted yet, but "Stormalong" also appears in WHITE'S ETHIOPIAN MELODIES!

"Storm along. Stormy."

"As sung by J. Smith, of White's Serenaders, at the Melodeon."

"O I wish I was in Mobile bay,
    Storm along Stormy.
Screwing cotton all de day,
    Storm along Stormy.
O you rollers storm along,
    Storm along Stormy.
Hoist away an' sing dis song,
    Storm along Stormy.

1 wish I was in New Orleans,
          Storm along Stormy.
Eating up dem pork and beans,
          Storm along Stormy.
Roll away in spite ob wedder,
          Storm along Stormy.
Come, lads, push all togedder,
    Storm along Stormy.

I wish I was in Baltimore,
          Storm along Stormy.
Dancing on dat Yankee shore,
          Storm along Stormy.
One bale more, den we'be done,
          Storm along Stormy.
De sun's gwan down, an' we'll go home.
    Storm along Stormy."

It seems like it may be describing rolling bales of cotton, then hoisting them aboard a ship (but not stowing them, probably the job of a different crew).

In any case, I am surprised to find this amongst minstrel songs. It would appear that it was taken from the work song repertoire into popular song; usually (I'd guess) it is the other way around. Compare also the 1839 citation of "Fire Down Below" in my last post, which suggests that it may also have been used as a work song before it appeared on the minstrel stage.