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Pre-cursor to Give Me Your Hand

John in Brisbane 30 Mar 99 - 03:09 AM
Helen 30 Mar 99 - 04:22 AM
alison 30 Mar 99 - 04:33 AM
Bruce O. 30 Mar 99 - 09:56 AM
Bruce O. 30 Mar 99 - 11:32 AM
John in Brisbane 30 Mar 99 - 06:53 PM
Bruce O. 30 Mar 99 - 08:20 PM
John in Brisbane 30 Mar 99 - 09:08 PM
Helen 31 Mar 99 - 02:16 AM
Bruce O. 31 Mar 99 - 12:45 PM
John in Brisbane 31 Mar 99 - 06:52 PM
Helen 01 Apr 99 - 02:53 AM
Helen 03 Apr 99 - 11:39 PM
skw@worldmusic.de 05 Apr 99 - 12:04 PM
Bruce O. 05 Apr 99 - 01:39 PM
Helen 09 Apr 99 - 11:59 PM
Harald 10 Apr 99 - 08:56 AM
John in Brisbane 11 Apr 99 - 09:06 AM
Penny 11 Apr 99 - 07:21 PM
Tucker 11 Apr 99 - 09:27 PM
John in Brisbane 12 Apr 99 - 08:12 AM
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Subject: Pre-cursor to Give Me Your Hand
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 30 Mar 99 - 03:09 AM

Some time ago I came across a site that had a harp tune which they claimed to pre date Give Me Your Hand, gave a short history of the composer plus a Midi file of the tune. The tune had a different name, and of course I can no longer find it. Any clues please?

Regards
John


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Subject: RE: Pre-cursor to Give Me Your Hand
From: Helen
Date: 30 Mar 99 - 04:22 AM

John,

Do you mean that it was a completely different tune, or that it was a related tune to Give Me Your Hand? Can you give us a bit more info please?

Helen


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Subject: RE: Pre-cursor to Give Me Your Hand
From: alison
Date: 30 Mar 99 - 04:33 AM

Hi John,

It wasn't just the Gealic title was it?

tabhair dom do lamh

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Pre-cursor to Give Me Your Hand
From: Bruce O.
Date: 30 Mar 99 - 09:56 AM

The earliest title for it was in Latin, "Da mihi Manum" (1724), said by Bunting to be Rory Dall O'Cahan, c 1603. It's not found other any other title until the 19th century.


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Subject: RE: Pre-cursor to Give Me Your Hand
From: Bruce O.
Date: 30 Mar 99 - 11:32 AM

What does pre date mean? before c 1603? before the tune appeared with its Latin title in 1724? Eight versions appeared before it is first found with the Gaelic title in 1810, and the English one in 1840.


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Subject: RE: Pre-cursor to Give Me Your Hand
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 30 Mar 99 - 06:53 PM

Sorry, I should have been more explicit! If my memory is at all accurate I understand that the tune I am seeking was written before O'Cahan penned Give Me Your Hand, was written by someone else, had a different title altogether and allegedly was 'used' by O'Cahan as the basis for his composition - wittingly or otherwise. The composer's name was given.

The site that I found this on had a collection of tunes from Irish composers who pre-dated O'Carolan - there was a description of each tune and each composer, plus a Midi of each tune.

I listened a couple of times to the Midi in question, noted its similarity to GMYH (especially the modal part) and have now misplaced it. It's a lovely tune.

Had the pleasure of playing with Andy Rigby at the weekend and he had not come across it, but I couldn't think of a better place to start further enquiries than right here. For those who know Andy, he was commissioned by a mutual friend to write a Planxty as a 25th wedding anniversary gift to his wife. If you come across Planxty Moloney without attribution in the years to come you may recall its source.

Regards
John


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Subject: RE: Pre-cursor to Give Me Your Hand
From: Bruce O.
Date: 30 Mar 99 - 08:20 PM

At persent the only two Irish tunes that are known to be prior to 1603 are "The Irishe Marche" in Lady Nevil's Book (MS, 1591) and "Calleno Casturame" in the Wm. Ballet Lute MS. No Scots tunes prior to 1612 are known. I'm interested in any evidence for any earlier form of "Given my your hand" (the earliest copy being of 1724). [The attribution of "Give me your hand" to O'Caghan, and it's date of 1603, comes entirely from Arthur O'Neill's statement to Edw. Bunting in 1806, printed in 1840.]


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Subject: RE: Pre-cursor to Give Me Your Hand
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 30 Mar 99 - 09:08 PM

Thanks Bruce - I was somewhat aware when I first visited the site in question that the claim being made was contentious (I hope that it wasn't 1 April last year that I first came across this).

I have re-visited the major Celtic sites that I know and the only one that is at all similar in content is Ancient Irish Music (or similar name), but it is not at all similar visually as the site that I recall, and of course it does not make any of the relevant references. My only other recollection is that the page was quite visually harp oriented.

Regards John


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Subject: RE: Pre-cursor to Give Me Your Hand
From: Helen
Date: 31 Mar 99 - 02:16 AM

John,

I'll do some checking in the harp list archives, and if I have to I'll ask the list if anyone knows the site you mention or the info about the tune. I'll need a couple of days to do this so don't worry if I don't have anything to report before the weekend.

Helen


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Subject: RE: Pre-cursor to Give Me Your Hand
From: Bruce O.
Date: 31 Mar 99 - 12:45 PM

I hope Helen succeeds. I spent a couple hours searching with various search engines with no luck. Websites do sometimes disappear, too.


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Subject: RE: Pre-cursor to Give Me Your Hand
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 31 Mar 99 - 06:52 PM

Bruce, I hope I'm not sending you on a wild goose chase, but I spent a couple of hours checking my archive of old bookmarks, plus a further couple of hours looking through my unindexed collection of about 40 Megs of Celtic Midis. No luck, yet!

Regards
John


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Subject: RE: Pre-cursor to Give Me Your Hand
From: Helen
Date: 01 Apr 99 - 02:53 AM

John,

Try this site. It was in my Netscape bookmarks and someine at Mudcat recommended it.

Ancient Irish Music

http://services.worldnet.net/~pybertra/ceol/tunes.htm

Helen


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Subject: RE: Pre-cursor to Give Me Your Hand
From: Helen
Date: 03 Apr 99 - 11:39 PM

refresh


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Subject: RE: Pre-cursor to Give Me Your Hand
From: skw@worldmusic.de
Date: 05 Apr 99 - 12:04 PM

These notes come from a Wolfe Tones album:
[1974:] This tune, revived by Sean O'Riada, was originally a composition of the blind Derry harpist Rory 'Dall' O'Cathain. He wrote it while on a visit to Scotland where he had a disagreement with a Lady Eglingtoun. He composed the tune for her when she apologized. Brian's words are directed at the disagreements between the two peoples in Ireland today. (Notes Wolfe Tones, 'Till Ireland A Nation')
The info sounds very positive, but after reading this thread there seems reason for doubt. Brian Warfield of the Wolfe Tones claims copyright for the words. I suppose there's no doubt about that? Or were there earlier words? - Susanne


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Subject: RE: Pre-cursor to Give Me Your Hand
From: Bruce O.
Date: 05 Apr 99 - 01:39 PM

The story is from Bunting, 1840, and there are no old words known.


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Subject: RE: Pre-cursor to Give Me Your Hand
From: Helen
Date: 09 Apr 99 - 11:59 PM

John,

Was the Ancient Irish Music site the one I referred to above?

Helen


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Subject: RE: Pre-cursor to Give Me Your Hand
From: Harald
Date: 10 Apr 99 - 08:56 AM

The gaelic equivalent to "Give Me Your Hand" is "Tabhair dom do Labh". It´s often recorded under that name. I


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Subject: RE: Pre-cursor to Give Me Your Hand
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 11 Apr 99 - 09:06 AM

Helen, Sorry for the delay in answering. Yes, the site you referred me to was the Ancient Irish site that I mentioned. Still a mystery to me, but I'm yet to clean up my very messy study - never know what I might fing amongst the half ton of paper.

Regards
John


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Subject: RE: Pre-cursor to Give Me Your Hand
From: Penny
Date: 11 Apr 99 - 07:21 PM

Helen, I would like to thank you for the address to that site, too. It's been very helpful to me.


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Subject: RE: Pre-cursor to Give Me Your Hand
From: Tucker
Date: 11 Apr 99 - 09:27 PM

Geez, I am a babe in the woods among the learned! Remind me not to go on Jeopardy with all you folks!


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Subject: RE: Pre-cursor to Give Me Your Hand
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 08:12 AM

Hi Tucker - If I may I'll absent myself from the Jeopardy candidates. To my mind 'Give Me Your Hand' is a truly beautiful tune, and one that I always love playing or hearing. It has a couple of little twists to it that lift it out of the ordinary. If you aren't familiar with it let me know via this thread, and between us we can post a URL, a Midi file or whatever to help you share this joy. If you know the tune already please forgive me for preaching.

Regards
John


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