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I'm Sorry

GUEST,Folky Geezer 25 Mar 07 - 08:27 AM
GUEST,Black with the coal 25 Mar 07 - 08:34 AM
GUEST,Folky Geezer 25 Mar 07 - 08:36 AM
Amos 25 Mar 07 - 09:28 AM
GUEST,meself 25 Mar 07 - 09:34 AM
Old Grizzly 25 Mar 07 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,Terry McDonald 25 Mar 07 - 10:00 AM
Banjo-Flower 25 Mar 07 - 10:07 AM
nutty 25 Mar 07 - 10:12 AM
John MacKenzie 25 Mar 07 - 10:19 AM
GUEST,meself 25 Mar 07 - 10:20 AM
Georgiansilver 25 Mar 07 - 10:47 AM
GUEST,meself 25 Mar 07 - 10:51 AM
Rapparee 25 Mar 07 - 11:12 AM
Brían 25 Mar 07 - 11:52 AM
GUEST,Folky Geezer 25 Mar 07 - 12:54 PM
woodsie 25 Mar 07 - 01:02 PM
gnu 25 Mar 07 - 01:43 PM
Peace 25 Mar 07 - 01:50 PM
Megan L 25 Mar 07 - 01:57 PM
Peace 25 Mar 07 - 02:07 PM
Peace 25 Mar 07 - 02:08 PM
Megan L 25 Mar 07 - 02:14 PM
Peace 25 Mar 07 - 02:29 PM
Rapparee 25 Mar 07 - 02:35 PM
Peace 25 Mar 07 - 02:44 PM
Megan L 25 Mar 07 - 02:49 PM
Rapparee 25 Mar 07 - 02:55 PM
John MacKenzie 25 Mar 07 - 03:02 PM
Azizi 25 Mar 07 - 03:29 PM
Rapparee 25 Mar 07 - 03:39 PM
Big Al Whittle 25 Mar 07 - 03:52 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 25 Mar 07 - 04:08 PM
autolycus 25 Mar 07 - 04:15 PM
Gurney 25 Mar 07 - 04:34 PM
fat B****rd 25 Mar 07 - 04:42 PM
kendall 25 Mar 07 - 04:45 PM
GUEST,meself 25 Mar 07 - 04:57 PM
Georgiansilver 25 Mar 07 - 05:02 PM
Big Al Whittle 25 Mar 07 - 05:11 PM
John MacKenzie 25 Mar 07 - 06:00 PM
Rapparee 25 Mar 07 - 06:17 PM
autolycus 25 Mar 07 - 06:41 PM
GUEST,meself 25 Mar 07 - 07:09 PM
The Fooles Troupe 25 Mar 07 - 08:32 PM
Rapparee 25 Mar 07 - 08:37 PM
Old Grizzly 26 Mar 07 - 08:28 AM
Rapparee 26 Mar 07 - 08:41 AM
Jean(eanjay) 26 Mar 07 - 08:49 AM
Rapparee 26 Mar 07 - 08:52 AM
Bobert 26 Mar 07 - 09:28 AM
Old Grizzly 26 Mar 07 - 09:50 AM
John MacKenzie 26 Mar 07 - 10:04 AM
Kweku 26 Mar 07 - 10:55 AM
Peace 26 Mar 07 - 11:02 AM
JennyO 26 Mar 07 - 11:12 AM
GUEST,X 26 Mar 07 - 11:17 AM
Old Grizzly 26 Mar 07 - 11:43 AM
Big Mick 26 Mar 07 - 12:07 PM
GUEST,meself 26 Mar 07 - 12:16 PM
Peace 26 Mar 07 - 12:21 PM
autolycus 26 Mar 07 - 03:18 PM
Nickhere 26 Mar 07 - 08:46 PM
Bobert 26 Mar 07 - 08:53 PM
Mrrzy 26 Mar 07 - 09:00 PM
Rapparee 26 Mar 07 - 09:00 PM
Mrrzy 26 Mar 07 - 09:00 PM
Rapparee 26 Mar 07 - 10:18 PM
JennyO 26 Mar 07 - 11:22 PM
heric 26 Mar 07 - 11:40 PM
Peace 26 Mar 07 - 11:52 PM
GUEST,X 27 Mar 07 - 01:04 AM
autolycus 27 Mar 07 - 02:04 AM
GUEST,Quarcoo 27 Mar 07 - 03:36 AM
guitar 27 Mar 07 - 05:10 AM
Folk Form # 1 27 Mar 07 - 05:11 AM
Big Al Whittle 27 Mar 07 - 05:42 AM
Rapparee 27 Mar 07 - 09:33 AM
Old Grizzly 27 Mar 07 - 09:36 AM
JennyO 27 Mar 07 - 10:51 AM
autolycus 27 Mar 07 - 10:57 AM
Nickhere 27 Mar 07 - 05:16 PM
GUEST,sinky 28 Mar 07 - 06:52 AM
Wolfgang 28 Mar 07 - 07:14 AM
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Subject: I'm Sorry
From: GUEST,Folky Geezer
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 08:27 AM

I would like to state the following:

I am sorry for slavery

Can you please forgive me?


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: GUEST,Black with the coal
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 08:34 AM

My female and child ancestors were sent down coal mines. Can anyone apologise for that?


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: GUEST,Folky Geezer
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 08:36 AM

Yes, me.

I am so sorry for what I made them do.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Amos
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 09:28 AM

What is a child ancestor?


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 09:34 AM

I think it's an ancestor of a child ...


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Old Grizzly
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 09:48 AM

The only slave I have ever kept is still happy as a lark and busy planning what to do for our 25th anniversary :o)

All this 'historical apologizing' stuff is pretty pointless and I do wonder if there is not a significant Political Correctness element involved or even 'look at me ..... see what a lovely caring person I am'
You can no more apologise for someone who lived 200 years ago than you can take a dump for them - an apology can only come from the person who has done wrong.

Yes - remember the Wilberforce anniversary by all means. It is very important to educate people as to the horrors of what did occur and not to shove this issue under the societys carpet.

Even more important however, is to bring right to the fore, the modern day, but no less real, human trafficking and slavery that continues in our society today. For whatever reason, it appears to me that both politicians and the police turn a blind eye to this issue or at the very least, fail to fund or initiate action.

We can't change the past but we can, if we have the will, act now to change the future.

What we should all do, is apologise to the sex slaves and migrant workers in our own communities for not bringing pressure to bear on the authorities to take meaningful action to help them in their plight.

dave


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 10:00 AM

Wasn't Folky Geezer being ironic?


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 10:07 AM

You could have a Ceilidh for your 25th Dave I know a band

Gerry


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: nutty
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 10:12 AM

I doubt that, even if I had been alive at the time of slavery, people of my station in life would have been able to do much about it and we certainly would not have profitted from it.

Wilberforce had political clout because he was a politician who moved among the upper classes and so was in a position to be heard.

Could the government, please, apologise to me for keeping my ancestors (who were Yorkshire Mill Workers) in abject poverty for years.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 10:19 AM

Please can we have our country back while you're righting all these wrongs?
Giok


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 10:20 AM

Will somebody apologize for not putting this in the BS section?


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 10:47 AM

I'm sorry for not putting it in the BS section...will that do?


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 10:51 AM

No - it's a start - our compensation demands will be forthcoming, following consultation with our lawyers and accountants -


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 11:12 AM

I once gave someone directions that made them drive farther than they needed to reach their destination. If only I could find them I would give them everything my brother owns to make it up to them.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Brían
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 11:52 AM

I would like to apologise to Anonymous. I was singing one of his/her songs one night and I forgot the words, so I made something up.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: GUEST,Folky Geezer
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 12:54 PM

I am sincerely sorry for all the shit that has gone down in the past. Please forgive me!

I am so sorry for the atom bomb, the pox, religion, folk music, the electric chair, china, cruelty to ants and all the other crap, I beg forgiveness.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: woodsie
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 01:02 PM

It wasn't you it was ME!!!

I am sorry.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: gnu
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 01:43 PM

Say three Our Fathers and three Hail Marys. Go in peace.

BTW, there are lots of ants, so don't worry about walking on the lawn.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Peace
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 01:50 PM

Three Hail Marys my ass. Put your nuts in a drawer and slam it twice. Repeat daily for one week.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 01:57 PM

Peace dae i hiv tae come ower there and skelp you?

While we are at it could the ancestors af the vikings who raided the small farm just outside stromness before heading south for the battle of Largs please appologise immediately we have been terribly traumitised by the event.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Peace
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 02:07 PM

Yes. ma'am. I'll behave.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Peace
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 02:08 PM

"we have been terribly traumitised by the event."

And the sheep even more so . . . .


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 02:14 PM

Listen ya scunner I'm trying tae build a case fur compensation :p

anyway ye ken fine weel its Lairg that has the scared sheep.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Peace
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 02:29 PM

LOL


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 02:35 PM

My ancestors raided Scotland in 987. Two of them were killed, three wounded, and the rest were so severely traumatized by seeing men in skirts playing bagpipes that they went home without any loot.

I'd like compensation, please.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Peace
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 02:44 PM

After what they did to the sheep, you'll get nowt!


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 02:49 PM

987 ah well it couldn't have been you then rapaire. ok so will the perp own up


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 02:55 PM

My family needs the compensation, though. But we'll compromise. We'll promise not to raid Scotland anymore if you'll give us, oh, England in exchange.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 03:02 PM

That's a deal, mind you nobody else wants it, so are you sure?
G ¦¬]


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 03:29 PM

Imo, the issue of compensation for the enslavement of Black people is a red herring whose purpose is to keep divided all the middle class and poor people regardless of race, ethnicity, and nationality, from those who do have, most of which aren't people of color but some of which are.

Instead of talking about compensation, even in a snarky way as folks are doing in this thread, it seems to me that it would be more productive to focus on how and why systems work to maintain such an unequal distribution of wealth in the United States and elsewhere in the world.

Here's a comment from Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. that addresses this point:

"On the Distribution of World Wealth and American Global Priorities

Some months ago Mrs. King and I ventured over to that great country known as India. I'll never forget the experience of meeting with the great leaders of India, and meeting people from all over the country. A noble and marvelous experience. But I'll tell you now there were those depressing moments. For how can one avoid being depressed when he sees with his own eyes millions of people sleeping on the sidewalks? In Calcutta more than a million people sleep on the sidewalks every night. They have no homes to go in,they have no beds to sleep in. How can one avoid being depressed when he discovers that out of India's population of four-hundred million people, more than three-hundred sixty-five million make an annual income of less than thirty dollars a year? And most of these people have never even seen a doctor or a dentist. When I noticed these conditions something within me cried out: Can we in America stand idly by and not be concerned? And an answer came: No. For the destiny of India and the destiny of every other nation is tied up with the destiny of the United States. And the destiny of the United States is tied up with the destiny of India. And I started thinking about the fact that here in the United States we spend more than a million dollars a day to store surplus food and I started thinking: I know where we can store that food, free of charge: in the wrinkled stomachs of the hundreds of millions of people who go to bed hungry each night.

And I think we've spent far too much of our money in the United States establishing military bases around the world rather than bases of genuine concern and understanding."

(From a speech about the "American Dream," 1965)

CourseworkHelp Distribution of wealth http://kevincassell.com/PERSON/QUOTE.HTM


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 03:39 PM

Azizi, if it would do any good I'd back it in a minute. But like you, I think that it's a red herring, a distraction, like "gay marriage" and flag burning, from the very real problems that face the US and the rest of the world.

And there ain't gonna be nobody doin' nothin' about these problems until the problems smack the US and the rest of the world around the head and shoulders.

I pity the next President of the US, whoever it is. She or he will inherit such a mess and such a host of problems of true crisis proportions that he or she will truly have to be an extraordinary person just to cope with them.

For example, suppose China calls in its chips.... And so does the EU....


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 03:52 PM

chips...we owe China chips?

Long term, these people are going to have to divest themselves of leaders like Mugabe. they are going to have to lose cultural practices and beliefs that keep them in subjugation.

we are only starting on that road ourselves, look how the wealth is divided up so unfairly in our country.

But surely one thing we are starting to learn with iraq and afghanistan - they have to do it for themselves. And its not going to be a quick fix.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 04:08 PM

I'm sorry for the ritual sacrifice of human virgins. But since they died virginal and, thusly, have no descendents, there's nobody to whom to make my apology.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: autolycus
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 04:15 PM

1. The West wouldn't be where it is now without the slavery which underpinned it,so we benefit with the quality of the lives we have now as a direct consequence. Much of Africa is a mess for related reasons.

   2. Azizi (hi again). When a measure of capitalism was introduced into Russia,a direct consequence was the sudden appearance of millionaires.

   So,a gulf between rich and poor is inherent,an inevitable,immutable effect of capitalism. The slaves were the poorest of the poor that capitalism could be erected upon.






      Ivor


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Gurney
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 04:34 PM

I lapsed from the Catholic Church because of the concept of Original Sin, which holds all humans responsible for the execution of Jesus. I was 11 years old when I lapsed. As I can find no Jewish nor Roman ancestry in my makeup...if I have, it is very dilute... why should I accept responsibility?
Even if I was 100% whatever, I still never done it, and you'll never pin it on me.

Just pointing out a long-held stance.

I do understand Folky Geezer's motive, though. Always somebody trying to ascribe responsibility. It used to be just the communist states that wanted to crumble people.
From non-apologists like me they get advice on sex and travel if they persist.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: fat B****rd
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 04:42 PM

Slavery is abhorrent to any decent human being. In the case of the USA I'm sorry that Jazz and Blues are a result of it.
I've not worded this too well. I'm not sorry that Jazz and Blues exist.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: kendall
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 04:45 PM

I am appalled by the very thought that one person can keep another in slavery, and I'm damn glad that none of my ancestors ever owned a slave.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 04:57 PM

Once again we are reminded of why Dr King is considered a great man.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 05:02 PM

I think it is about time we had an apology from the Norse countries for sending their viking hordes to invade us all those hundreds of years ago. Apologies and compensation......OH and while we are at it...let's have the same from the Romans who also invaded us..


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 05:11 PM

Yeh a volvo all round should just about settle the matter...


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 06:00 PM

And do you people who complain about the unfair distribution of wealth, think that those who worked to earn it would have worked so hard, if a large chunk of it was going to someone else?
G


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 06:17 PM

There are approximately 800,000 slave transactions every year, according to both the US and UN Commissions on Human Rights. Most, but by no means all of them, are in Africa.

Within the last ten years citizens of the United States, living in the US, have been convicted of keeping slaves. Within the last month a family of foriegners, legally residing the US, were convicted of slavery.

None of my family has ever, as far as I know, owned slaves. To do so is to degrade the humanity of the slave, but to sink your own humanity into a bottomless pit.

We did do a little viking a few hundred years back, though. And Giok just gave me England as compensation.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: autolycus
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 06:41 PM

Lots of people receive shedloads of money without doing much for it, like Alan Hansen and Gary Lineker for newspaper columns which are ghost-written. And thos e who make a fortune betting on the stock-exchange.

there is no NECESSARY connection between how hard a person works and how much money they make.






       Ivor


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 07:09 PM

"And do you people who complain about the unfair distribution of wealth, think that those who worked to earn it would have worked so hard, if a large chunk of it was going to someone else?"

Yes, that must have been hard work for those owners of cotton plantations to have to drive into town to arrange for their cotton to be bought and sold, to have to go through the bother of buying and selling slaves, not to mention all that bothersome flogging and ...

It sure is a good thing they knew they would be able to keep all their hard-earned wealth! Otherwise, why, they may not have worked as hard!


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 08:32 PM

Interesting how the African Chiefs were the source of much of making slaves of their own people...


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 08:37 PM

And capturing others. Greed can make people do disgusting things.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Old Grizzly
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 08:28 AM

Greed, envy and power - not much crap happens in the world that can't be put down to these three.....usually, the first.

The veneer of civilization is far thinner than most folks care to admit... and, however highly we may think of ourselves, we are still no more than animals with abnormally large brains which, to a large extent, we have no real control over.

Greed, envy and brutal behaviour are common traits in many other species but the animal called 'man' has grown intelligent enough to refine these natural traits to truly extraordinary levels that no other animal would accept as reasonable behaviour, and to then apply such suffering on an ever grander scale.

Regards,

Old Grizzly (... one of the nice cuddly animals :o))

PS
Sorry ...If you have been affected by any of the issues in this thread, please phone my counselling helpline on 044 0945 4923756125
Calls charged at £16.50 per minute... call costs from mobiles may vary.)


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 08:41 AM

Dear Old Griz: I would call, but certain transatlantic charges would apply.

That's okay though, because Giok gave me England as compensation for my Viking ancestors being frightened by men in Scotland wearing skirts and playing bagpipes. Quite put them off, so much so that they left without any loot at all....


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 08:49 AM

The Church of England are considering making reparation for their part in the slave trade. How would that work?


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 08:52 AM

Send 'em more missionaries?


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 09:28 AM

Actaually the two bills passed by Maryland (a Union state, BTW) and Virginia (a Confederate state) only go as far has expressing "deep regret" for their participation in slavery...

But like someone has pointed out, this ***is*** a start but ***only*** a start...

The next and most important step is making a collective decision to cretae and fund programs to "repair" the damage that has been done... And when we look at the disporportunate number odf decsendants of slaves who still live in poverty there is no argument that the effects of slavery are still taking their toll...

The argument that, "Hey, I didn't do this so why should I have to pay" is not valid... Everyone alive today enjoys not only the infastructure but also the collective wealth that has been created on the backs of black people...

We made a start in the 60's with the Great Society but have kida lost our way over the years and now we have a bunch of rich white people using every available tool, including funding the elections of right wingers and purchasing access to government, to put an end to the "repairs" that are now long over-due...

Time to get back to work and quit playing games with meaningless slogans about " I ain't responsible for what my grand-daddy did..."

Bobert


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Old Grizzly
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 09:50 AM

< Dear Old Griz: I would call, but certain transatlantic charges would apply.
That's okay though, because Giok gave me England as compensation for my Viking ancestors being frightened by men in Scotland wearing skirts and playing bagpipes. Quite put them off, so much so that they left without any loot at all.... >

Dear chap - I sense you have no need for this helpline.....but...

the gullability helpline could be of great assistance to you...

You've been had !

A Scotsman NEVER but NEVER gives away anything :o)

Regards

A kind caring and sharing Old Grizzly


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 10:04 AM

ROFLMFAO
G.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Kweku
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 10:55 AM

The president of my country Ghana(by the way it is estimated that Ghana alone lost about 16million people), was in London last week and the honorable president told the whole world there is no need for an apology for the slave trade by Tony Blair( or something close to that).

Well, for those who are outside Africa, I want you to know that royals who never suffered from this trade don't see anything wrong with it. My president is a royal and so are many African presidents whose families did not suffer from slavery. Those of us whose ancestors were carried away like myself are termed the INTOLERABLE RADICALS(and please I am not shouting), who continue to live in the past.

So you see it depends on which side of the coin you are. as Emperor Haile Selassie told the League of Nations when his country Ethiopia was attacked and over-run in 1936 by the Italians " Today it is US Tomorrow it shall be YOU".

So please don't let us pay lip service to this serious social canker called slavery,which has retarded the progress of a whole race. if not then don't let us hear anyone talk about Africa's is this or that.

My greetings to all.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Peace
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:02 AM

"gullability"

It ain't in the dictionary.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: JennyO
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:12 AM

Of course not Peace. You spelt it wrong :-)


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: GUEST,X
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:17 AM

I am sorry. I wish I was black. I hate christians. Forgive me!


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Old Grizzly
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:43 AM



I make no apology - that's the way we Grizzlys spell it :o)

Regards

one dyslexic Old Grizzly


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 12:07 PM

Bobert, you got it start to finish. Good job.

Mick


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 12:16 PM

Quarcoo - Thanks for your post. It is refreshing to get a non-Euro-North-American perspective from time to time, it would be nice to get more.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Peace
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 12:21 PM

"Of course not Peace. You spelt it wrong :-)"

Nope. I was quoting a previous poster.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: autolycus
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 03:18 PM

prog on BBC2 tonight,Monday,9 - 10.30 on child slavery TODAY where there are more then 8 million children TODAY in slavery.







       Ivor


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Nickhere
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 08:46 PM

Quarcoo - fair point. I read in one of today's papers that several African leaders are expressing their anger over slavery. Ok, so a good deal of the 'West's' wealth WAS built on slavery, but it seems to be overlooked how Africans themselves helped in the trade by kidnapping their neighbours and more unfortuante fellow Africans (well, you didn't think the Portuguese and Spanish were actually going to go into the jungle themselves, running around with all that armour on?). African royals were happy to trade their fellow humans for muskets, beads, etc., It doesn't excuse the avaricious Europeans, but I think it shows almost any group of victims will also have its dark side. People from my own country (Ireland) were shipped as slaves to Jamaica etc., in the 1650s by Cromwell and Lord Broughill. They were preferred in many instances as their christianity prevented them from comitting suicide (for example). Now you'd think that a country with so many victims would be more sensitive to those less fortunate, but brutality brutalises us all and the truth is that many Irish scum went off to the southern USA to be plantation foremen and gangsters as often as make an honest contribution to their adopted society.

I hope the current clarion call to remember historic slavery will remind people that it hasn't disappeared, but is alive and well: sweatshops, child labour, sex trafficking....

The 'YESMEN' have done an excellent account of how modern-day slavery by new names and methods can flourish, all under the guise of the free market and globalisation (see


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 08:53 PM

Excellent points, Nickhere...

Slavery is alive an' well....


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 09:00 PM

Besides, there is growing evidence that the Europeans actually got the idea from the Africans who were still enslaving each other, whereas them white folk apparently had given it up on a large scale with the Romans, preferring to work serfs into the ground, I suppose. Till the people said, you want our riches, our ivory, our gold? How about our slaves? And the colonials thought it was a great idea. Quelle idÉe.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 09:00 PM

Quarcoo, Moroccan and others from Barbary Coast (across from Spain and Southern France) swept into the English Channel and captured English, Irish, and Welsh as slaves. This was in the 17th Century -- the 1600s.

Other nationalities may also have been taken; I don't know about that.

Arabs also took many, many Africans as slaves. Africans also took Africans as slaves.

The Irish also took others as slaves -- St. Patrick, for example. And if serfdom wasn't slavery it was only a matter of semantics.

It seems that humans have some sort of inherent desire to have life-and-death power over others.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Mrrzy
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 09:00 PM

Ooh, Rapaire, cross posting!


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 10:18 PM

Slavery increased for a while under Charlemagne, as he enslaved the pagans who did not convert to Christianity (and who he didn't kill because of it).

The last manumissions of slaves in Sweden date from the 14th Century.

I really don't think that Europeans (or even certain tribes of American Indians) had to learn slavery from anyone....


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: JennyO
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:22 PM

Whatever, Bruce. I still ain't gonna look it up :-)


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: heric
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:40 PM

gulbalilidee rains


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Peace
Date: 26 Mar 07 - 11:52 PM

Don't have to. Gullable really ISN'T in the dictionary.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: GUEST,X
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 01:04 AM

I apologise to the Irish for treating them like shit for 1000 years. We english should be punished. Apologies are not enough. We should all be HUNG!


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: autolycus
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 02:04 AM

We Brits has feudalism for rather a long time. I doubt if we needed to get the idea of slavery from anyone.

    There was also slavery in ancient Greece and Rome. Ditto.






       Ivor


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: GUEST,Quarcoo
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 03:36 AM

the reason why i love and miss mudcat is diversity of views.

but my point is the seriousness with which we tackle slavery and address associated problems with it 200years ago will go a long way to stop it now.

eg. a soccer star who is sold for say $56m and made to play like a donkey is not so different from a Roman Slave-Gladiator.

lets fight this social Vice which is destroying our planet.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: guitar
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 05:10 AM

I'm sorry about Slavery as well, I don't know why but I am.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 05:11 AM

I'm so sorry that I am probably the sorriest person you will ever meet in your life.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 05:42 AM

I wonder where Russia stands on the matter. After all they were enslaving their own people under the Tsars. Some would say beyond that.

of course slavery is a crap economic system - quite apart from any moral considerations. if a huge part of the population isn't earning anything - they can't be consumer/customers. So the economy stagnates.

I've heard it said, that's why the North whipped the South in the American Civil War.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 09:33 AM

Quarcoo, I agree. By myself I can't do anything except boycott certain products and do my best to support groups like this one.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Old Grizzly
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 09:36 AM

gullible - naive and easily deceived or tricked


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: JennyO
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 10:51 AM

So did you look it up, Old Grizzly?


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: autolycus
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 10:57 AM

I don't think wanting power over others is inherent (unless you're a Scorpio). I believe it arises out of fear.

   So does greed.

   tho' it doesn't help living in a system in which greed IS inherent. Where WOULD it be if it didn't succeed in cultivating greed?






       I.


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Nickhere
Date: 27 Mar 07 - 05:16 PM

Guest X: "I apologise to the Irish for treating them like shit for 1000 years. We english should be punished. Apologies are not enough. We should all be HUNG!"

Well, as I said, I'm sure the Irish would have been no different if and when they got teh chance. Anyway, English people treated English people like shit for years: the barons and lords whose extravagant lifestyles were supported by the serfs and villeins. Did you see 'the Wind That Shakes the Barley?' (subject of another mudcat thread at one time, if memory serves me). Loach was making the point that the English had common cause with the Irish in throwing off the shackles of their ruling classes. In Ireland, Loach argues nothing would change if simply the accents of the oppressors changed (and some of the atrocities committed by Irish Free State troops far surpassed even the Black and Tans antics). When I see the arrogant contempt with which our so-called leaders view their 'serfs' (the electorate) I am reminded of the Peasant Revolt. the serfs, led by Wat Tyler, angrily assembled simply to demand better conditions (and not an end to monarchy or any social revolution like that) of King Richard. Faced with 20,000 anrgy peasants, the king amde all kinds of promises and implored them to return to their homes. They did. Nothing chnaged. The leaders went to meet him againb. Without the strength of numbers he angrily shouted at them 'villeins ye are and villeins ye shall remain!!'
So no surprise that although there are declarations of 'never again' slavery still continues through grossly unjust global market rules and the 'race to the bottom' in wages, healthcare etc.,

The Yes Men, presumed to be representing the WTO, presented a seminar on new forms of slavery to an audience who bought it hook line and sinker. they called it 'private stewardship' but read between the lines and it's an ingenious description of modern slavery. These guys rock!!
Check out their site at

and the link for the African 'slavery' conference:

YesMen slavery conference


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: GUEST,sinky
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 06:52 AM

i pay my slaves very well


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Subject: RE: I'm Sorry
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Mar 07 - 07:14 AM

Is any gull able to fly?

Wolfgang


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Mudcat time: 27 May 8:50 PM EDT

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