Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?

Subject: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: GUEST,Riverman
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 06:37 AM

OK, I promise I have checked previous threads on this song and can only find lyric discussions rather than meanings so please be gentle with me if there is and existing single post out there dealing with this.

I heard once that this song was not about a girl singing a warning to her true love about her protective parents but that it was about the sinister threat from within her walls, i.e. her father. I'd love to know what you think. To help out, its worth putting in the relevant verse of the version I'm familiar with as other versions may be more clear cut...

My father is a handsome devil
He wears a chain five miles long
And on each link a young heart dangles
Of every girl he's loved and wronged

Thanks for your expert opinions...

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 08:12 AM

It could also be that her father is merely a convenient example of how unfaithful all men are according to the mother. But alternative theories could hold true. If I were the young man in question, I would heed well the warning and hotfoot it otta there!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 08:23 AM

Can't see anything in that verse that remotely suggests the father is giving his daughter any inappropriate attention. The idea that the song suggests this goes against the whole of the rest of the song. Not a subplot, rather seeing things that aren't there.

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 08:28 AM

Never thought this had anything to do with abuse. Always saw it as a warning to young women about courting mankind & how they're an unworthy, untrustful lot & a of garabage
that not even a wife nor a daughter can trust to be true.

See Come All You Fair & Tender Ladies you'll notice that in the many versions on the linked thread & other threads that the verses about the unfaithful father & the verse about the weary mother aren't even included. Almost makes one think that they play a less important role in the song than the actuall warning does.

Barry

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: Scoville
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 09:22 AM

I never thought that part of it had anything to do with child abuse. I do, however, think that both parents are psychopaths if they're waiting to knife any young man who wants to marry their daughter. I mean, there's warning a girl about sneaky men and then there's disemboweling her boyfriend.

Don't sing love songs, you'll wake my mother
She's sleeping here right by my side
And in her right hand a silver dagger,
She says that I can't be your bride.


"Katy Dear" is a near-twin to "Silver Dagger", with a Romeo-and-Juliet twist at the end.

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: SouthernCelt
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 01:44 PM

Yes, "Katy Dear" is not only a near-twin, some sources give it either a primary or secondary (in Parentheses) title of "Silver Dagger". The version I learned came from Ian & Sylvia over 40 years ago and I've never found it on any printed or internet source with exactly the lyrics that I&S use. Anyway here's the I&S version:

Katy Dear

Oh Katy dear, go and ask your father
If you can be a bride of mine
If he says yes, then come and tell me
If he says no, we'll run away

I cannot go and ask my father
For he is on his bed of rest
And by his side is a golden dagger
To pierce the heart that I love best

Oh Katy dear, go ask your mother
If you can be a bride of mine
If she says yes, then come and tell me
If she says no, we'll run away

I cannot go and ask my mother
For she is on her bed of rest
And by her side is a silver dagger
To pierce the heart that I love best

Then he picked up a silver dagger
And pierced it through his wounded breast
Farewell Katy, farewell darling
I'll die for the one I love the best

Then she picked up the bloody weapon
And pierced it through her snow-white breast
Farewell momma, farewell papa
I'll go with the one I love the best

SC

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 03:08 PM

No suggestion whatever of (physical/sexual) "child abuse" in either song/version. I find "The Silver Dagger" far more powerful, in its psycho-sexual ramifications. The image of the mother who has been so traumatized and embittered by the philandering handsome-devil of a husband (or ex-lover) that she sleeps beside her daughter with a silver dagger ready to use on anyone who comes a-wooing ... is chilling. Is the daughter ever going to be able to escape the control of this unbalanced, potentially homicidal mother?

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 03:27 PM

I see it as more of a warning to the young man that he could be her brother. Not having read the rest of the song though, I will defer to Meself for the rest.

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 04:29 PM

I bet you're not really defering to me ... not really.

Never occurred to me he could be her brother, but then of course Daddy did get around. Kind of reminds me of that song about the girl whose father confides that her boyfriend is really her half-brother - then when she tells her mother of her woes, she says, "Go ahead and marry him - your father isn't really your father ... "

Okay, you had to be there ...

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 04:39 PM

The modern Irish song "Nancy Miles" is sometimes given a similar, dark interpretation.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 04:58 PM

Meself: I've heard the one you're speaking of too. There's also "By the Hush" by Andy M. Stewart.
And yes. I will trust your judgement on this one. The few lines I read seemed to have the same meter as "Nancy Spain" or "Go Home Girl", something like that.
Also: Check out the "Mudcatter Scrump" thread.
Regards to all in the "Have Not" provinces.
Jim

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 05:09 PM

Tis here!
We used to sing this and Katy Dear and Come all ye fair and Down by the banks of the Ohio.
Took them all as warnings about false young men (and fathers).
Robyn

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 05:28 PM

I just can't imagine Buffy singing that song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 06:05 PM

I have the record - but it's here in NZ.
Robyn

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 06:16 PM

Found it near the bottom of this page
but I can't make it work on my computer. Maybe you can.
Robyn

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 06:57 PM

I double clicked it and my computer is almost grinding to a halt. That's okay! I don't like "Johnny Be Fair" anyway.
Look a little farther down and you'll find "Incest Song" must be a theme today.

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 07:13 PM

I wonder if you're not confusing "By the Hush" with another song? The "By the Hush" that I know, and I think Andy M. may have recorded it, is the Canadian-Irish-American one about Paddy landing in the US in the middle of the Civil War and having to "go and fight for Lincoln" ... ?

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 08:39 PM

No.
The album title is "By The Hush" and the song revolves around a young couple on one of the islands. A social worker came to the door one day and explained to them that they were brother & sister
A bit like small town BC only these two hadn't a clue about it. They were completely devastated and immediately stopped boinking just as you or I would!

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 09:48 PM

On first glance, I read that as "you AND I" - needless to say, I was a little alarmed ... !

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 30 Mar 07 - 10:01 PM

Oh, I thought about it but joe would have stepped in.

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: GUEST,vielleuse
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 08:38 AM

I've always read it the same way as "meself". In a way it is about abuse - it's about the emotional abuse of a daughter by her mother.

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 09:01 AM

The Andy M Stewart song mentioned above is The Orphan's Wedding"

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: GUEST,mick
Date: 31 Mar 07 - 10:23 AM

I thought it had vampire connotations . A silver dagger or bullet were supposed to be able to kill a vampire /handsome devil

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 09:00 AM

I'd not though about it that carefully, mainly as the way the couple of versions I have are sung annoy me, but I'd always placed it in more common folky ground.

Her father is clearly incapable of keeping his trousers on, and any fair maids should avoid him( doubly if it's May, or they are involved in the dairy industry). Generally that kind of fellow are more likely to die in folk songs if they're poor, so the father is probably Lord Someone-or-other.

The family might just be setting very high standards for their daughter, and not letting her marry someone unless he owns half a county, or is at least heir to it. Killing, press-ganging, banishing or otherwise discouraging unsuitable, ie poor, grooms is not at all uncommon in this kind of song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 11:12 AM

The Orphan's Wedding" that's the one. Thanks Guest (if that's your real name)
My original interpretation, re the two young lovers being brother and sister was with reference to

My father is a handsome devil
He wears a chain five miles long
And on each link a young heart dangles
Of every girl he's loved and wronged

And not Katy Dear which was posted later.
Good morning all from the SNOWY highlands of Victoria.
Global warming, my arse!

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 11:20 AM

"the father is probably Lord Someone-or-other"

The reason I prefer the Silver Dagger version (at least, the one I know) to Katy Dear, with which I was unfamiliar, is that it has dispensed with all that stock "big ballad" paraphernalia, and chopped itself down to a tense, twisted little psychological portrait.

Some people seem to relish all the costume drama trappings; I don't; most people, of course, couldn't give a flying fiddler's ...

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 11:42 AM

You're going to make me read that, aren't you?

Subject: DT Correction: Silver Dagger
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 11:49 AM

Here it is, from the DigiTrad:

SILVER DAGGER (DT Lyrics) Don't sing lovesongs, you'll wake my mother She's sleeping here, right by my side And in her right hand, a silver dagger She says that I can't be your bride All men are false, says my mother They tell you wicked, loving lies The very next evening, they'll court another Leave you alone to pine and sigh My daddy is a handsome devil He's got a chain five miles long From every link a heart does dangle Of some fair maid he's loved and wronged Go court another tender maiden And hope that she will be your wife For I've been warned and I've decided To sleep alone all of my life

SILVER DAGGER (Baez recording-posted by Joe Offer) Don't sing lovesongs, you'll wake my mother She's sleeping here, right by my side And in her right hand, a silver dagger She says that I can't be your bride All men are false, says my mother They'll tell you wicked, loving lies The very next evening, they'll court another Leave you alone to pine and sigh My daddy is a handsome devil He's got a chain five miles long And on every link a heart does dangle Of another maid he's loved and wronged Go court another tender maiden And hope that she will be your wife For I've been warned and I've decided To sleep alone all of my life

@courting
DT #327
Laws M4
sung by Joan Baez
filename[ SILVDAG
SOF


Actually, looking at Katy, Dear version again, I see that it doesn't actually have all that pomp and ceremony I was alluding to - but this one is more pared down and direct, and less melodramatic.

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 11:56 AM

Meself: You've lost your handle. Why the heck are you a guest anyway?

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 12:45 PM

Jim Lad

Re "The Orphan's Wedding" above - apologies for the anonymnous GUEST posting - I forgot I wasn't logged in on that computer.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 12:47 PM

Then thank you MartinRyan: I got the album title right. Right?

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 01:21 PM

(But you're right - that was me that posted the lyrics ... )

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 01:23 PM

Are you not away yet?

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 01:25 PM

Aargh! Having trouble - closing the suitcase -

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 01 Apr 07 - 03:18 PM

I need a gottle of geer....

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Apr 21 - 07:16 PM

Corrected DT lyrics posted above.

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: John C. Bunnell
Date: 12 Apr 21 - 07:41 PM

Observation on the posted DigiTrad lyrics as performed by Joan Baez:

On one hand, I'd be reluctant to try and read old-school traditional ballad lyrics with eyes sensitized by present-day awareness of abusive behavior.

On the other hand, I think that set of lyrics, as posted, has been pared down a bit too much. The young woman from whom we are getting the story says in stanza four that she's resolved to sleep alone all her life...

...after telling us in stanza one that her mother is in the bed beside her.

At best, this is what writers of prose fiction would call an unreliable narrator (and/or a profoundly mixed message); alternately, the (presumably) abbreviated version has been edited in a way that badly confuses the original intent. Either way, it's less than satisfying from a storytelling perspective.

Subject: RE: Origins: Silver Dagger: Child abuse or love?
From: GerryM
Date: 12 Apr 21 - 11:49 PM

Dave Van Ronk recorded a song, under the title "Siver Dagger", which follows the "Katy Dear" lyrics given upthread, except that instead of Katy the woman's name is Molly, and there's a seventh stanza which goes,

Let's all take out our silver daggers,
Plunge them into our lily-white breasts
Saying goodbye Father, goodbye Mother
Goodbye to the one we love best.