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Origins: John Hackety / Jack Haggerty

DigiTrad:
FLAT RIVER GIRL
JACK HAGGERTY (2)
JACK HAGGERTY (3)


Related threads:
come all ye bold raftsmen/jack haggerty (3)
harmonica on mick hanleys jack haggerty (17)
Lyr Req: Jack Haggerty (60)
Lyr/Chords Req: Jack Hagerty? / Jack Haggerty (4) (closed)
Chords Req: Jack Haggerty (2)


Fidjit 02 Apr 07 - 08:58 AM
Fergie 02 Apr 07 - 09:39 AM
Little Robyn 02 Apr 07 - 03:45 PM
Fergie 02 Apr 07 - 05:19 PM
Warsaw Ed 02 Apr 07 - 10:21 PM
Fergie 03 Apr 07 - 05:35 AM
Fidjit 04 Apr 07 - 11:03 AM
Fidjit 04 Apr 07 - 11:05 AM
GUEST,mg 01 May 13 - 05:15 PM
GUEST,kenny 02 May 13 - 04:19 AM
GUEST,PS 02 May 13 - 07:28 AM
GUEST,leeneia 02 May 13 - 10:37 AM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 02 May 13 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,kenny 02 May 13 - 06:01 PM
GUEST,mg 03 May 13 - 02:07 AM
Joe Offer 03 May 13 - 02:53 AM
Joe Offer 03 May 13 - 03:15 AM
GUEST,leeneia 03 May 13 - 11:20 AM
bubblyrat 12 Jul 14 - 07:23 AM
GUEST,leeneia 12 Jul 14 - 10:03 PM
Joe Offer 13 Jul 14 - 01:21 AM
Acorn4 13 Jul 14 - 06:09 AM
RoyH (Burl) 13 Jul 14 - 10:50 AM
GUEST,leeneia 14 Jul 14 - 10:36 AM
meself 14 Jul 14 - 11:26 AM
GUEST,leeneia 15 Jul 14 - 09:41 AM
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Subject: Lyr Req: John Hackety
From: Fidjit
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 08:58 AM

Hard this recently. Anyone got the words?

Thanks

Chas


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Subject: Lyr Add: JACK HAGGERTY
From: Fergie
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 09:39 AM

Would it be this one?

These words were cut and pasted from another thread. They were originally posted there by harpgirl.

JACK HAGGERTY

I'm a heartbroken raftsman. From Greenville I came.
All my virtue's departed with the lass I did fain.
From the strong darts of Cupid I've suffered much grief.
My heart's broke asunder. I can ne'er get relief.

Of my trouble I'll tell you without much delay,
Of a sweet little lassie my heart stole away.
She was a blacksmith's daughter on the Flat River side,
And I always intended to make her my bride.

By occupation I was a raftsman where the white waters roll.
My name I've engraved on the high rocks and shoal.
I am the boy that stands happy on the dark purling stream.
My thoughts were on Molly. She haunted my dream.

I gave her fine jewels, and the finest of lace.
The costliest muslins her form embraced.
I gave her my wages all for to keep safe.
I deprived her of nothing I had on this earth.

I worked on the river till I earned quite a stake,
Was steadfast, steady, and ne'er played the rake.
O'er the camp, flat, and river I am very well known.
They call me Jack Haggerty the pride of the town.

Till one day on the river a letter I received.
She said from her promise herself she'd relieve.
To wed with another she'd a long time delayed,
And the next time I'd see her, she'd never more be a maid.

To her mother, Jane Tucker, I laid all the blame.
She caused her to leave me and go back on my name,
To cast off the riggings that God would tie,
And leave me a wanderer till the day that I die.

Now goodbye to Flat River. For me there is no rest.
I'll shoulder my peavey and go further west.
I'll go to Muskegon some comforts to find,
And leave my old sweetheart and Flat River behind.

Now come all ye bold raftsmen with hearts stout and true,
Don't trust to a woman. You're beat if you do!
But if you do meet one with a dark chestnut curl,
Remember Jack Haggerty and the Flat River girl!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: John Hackety
From: Little Robyn
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 03:45 PM

How does the tune go?
It looks like it would fit to Cushy Butterfield (Pretty little Polly Perkins from Paddington Green).
It reads like music hall too.
Robyn


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: John Hackety
From: Fergie
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 05:19 PM

Hi Little Robyn
its in the digitrad and there is a midi also. Mick Hanley does a nice version, his air is similar to the digitrad but is more subtle and better paced for the song.
Fergus


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: John Hackety
From: Warsaw Ed
Date: 02 Apr 07 - 10:21 PM

Under what name in the digitrad? I can't find it! Ed


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: John Hackety
From: Fergie
Date: 03 Apr 07 - 05:35 AM

Try Flat River Girl. You should find two midis there. They are similar to each other but the one labelled Jack Haggerty is I think, nearer to what Mick Hanley sings.
Fergus


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: John Hackety
From: Fidjit
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 11:03 AM

Yeah.

Guess that's the one thanks Fergie. Any idea whare it comes from?

Chas


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: John Hackety
From: Fidjit
Date: 04 Apr 07 - 11:05 AM

Oh and Harpgirl. Also.

Chas


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: John Hackety / Jack Haggerty
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 May 13 - 05:15 PM

This song has taken over my brain. I want to put it on our next Irish CD...It just will not stop playing but is very exuberant although story is sad.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: John Hackety / Jack Haggerty
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 02 May 13 - 04:19 AM

I'm sure I found the lyrics to this once in "The Penguin Book Of Canadian Folksongs", but can't lay my hands on it at the moment to check. I first heard the song sung by Mick Hanly on his 2nd solo album "As I Went By Blackwaterside", and thought it a great song, one of several on that record. The only other time I came across it was when it was recorded by the American/Irish group "Touchstone", but I've a feeling they might have got it from Mick Hanly.
I've just had a look on iTunes - there are 15 recordings of a song called "Jack Haggerty", including "Touchstone's" version, but unfortunately not Mick Hanly's.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: John Hackety / Jack Haggerty
From: GUEST,PS
Date: 02 May 13 - 07:28 AM

..also recorded as "Flat River Girl" by a band called "Eitre", where it's advised as having "Explicit Content" [ as is "The Flower Of Magharally" !!! ]


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: John Hackety / Jack Haggerty
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 May 13 - 10:37 AM

Some book I once read said that this song comes from SW Michigan, where Jack Haggerty and Anna (now Molly) Tucker actually lived in rival logging camps. In real life, they had nothing to do with each other.

I checked the map, and yes, Greenville and the Flat River are indeed in SW Michigan.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: John Hackety / Jack Haggerty
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 02 May 13 - 01:00 PM

Roud Number 642, has 69 entries. Several from Michigan collections (Songs of the Michigan Lumberjacks, Ballads & Songs of Southern Michigan), but versions from Texas, Wisconsin, N.Dakota, Minnesota, New York, New Hampshire, Maine, Vermont and Canada.

Some accessible versions are in Sandburg American Songbag (Flat River Girl), Lomax Cowboy Songs (Love-sick Cowboy), Doerflinger Songs of the Sailor & Lumberman (Jack Haggerty), Brown NC Folklore 2 (Jack Haggerty) and Friedmann Penguin Book of Folk Ballads (Jack Haggerty).

The earliest with a date collected seems to be from 1881, Jack Hagade in Gardner & Chickering, Ballads & Songs of Southern Michigan (1939) pp.267-269 (version c).

Mick


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: John Hackety / Jack Haggerty
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 02 May 13 - 06:01 PM

From "The Penguin Book Of Folk Ballads" pg421 [ as mentioned by Mick above ]. :

"Next after "The Jam On Gerry's Rock" in popularity among lumbermen, "Jack Haggerty" is an undisputed product of the Michigan woods. Though one would never guess it from hearing the ballad, it originated as a spite song. Its' author was an accomplished raftsman and entertainer in the Flat River camps, named Dan McGinnis. Annoyed that George Mercer, a younger man, had been appointed woods boss over him, McGinnis and a few other mischief-makers concocted this song in 1872 about an affair between Jack Haggerty, a good looking lumberjack at the camp, and Anna Tucker, the belle of Greenville and Mercer's fiancee. Haggerty was hardly acquainted with Miss Tucker. We owe these facts about "Jack Haggerty" to the diligence of Mrs. G.J. Chickering ( see Modern Language Notes, 35 : 465 - 468 ).
Text : R.W.Gordon, New Times Magazine, August 28, 1927".


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: John Hackety / Jack Haggerty
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 03 May 13 - 02:07 AM

what about the story that mcginnis was really in love with miss tucker but used his buddy's name. it sounds like to great a song to have been written out of mischief by a committee but who knows...


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: John Hackety / Jack Haggerty
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 May 13 - 02:53 AM

The Traditional Ballad Index has a worthwhile entry on this song:

    Jack Haggerty (The Flat River Girl) [Laws C25]

    DESCRIPTION: Jack Haggerty has reformed his behavior to be a fit husband for the blacksmith's daughter. Following his long absence at work, she jilts him. He blames her mother, but gives up on women in general
    AUTHOR: Dan McGinnis
    EARLIEST DATE: 1872
    KEYWORDS: courting virtue separation love work
    FOUND IN: US(MA,MW,NE,So) Canada(Mar,Ont)
    REFERENCES (15 citations):
    Laws C25, "Jack Haggerty (The Flat River Girl)"
    Doerflinger, pp. 245-246, "Jack Haggerty" (1 text, 1 tune)
    BrownII 260, "Jack Haggerty" (1 text)
    Rickaby 1, "Jack Haggerty's Flat River Girl" (3 texts plus a fragment, 3 tunes)
    Peters, p. 140, "Flat River Girl" (1 text, 1 tune)
    Gardner/Chickering 108, "Jack Haggerty" (1 text plus an excerpt and mention of 4 more, 1 tune)
    Linscott, pp. 214-217, "Jack Haggerty or The Flat River Girl" (1 text, 1 tune)
    Beck-Maine, pp. 262-263, "Jack Haggerty's Flat River Girl" (1 text)
    FSCatskills 6, "The Flat River Raftsman" (2 texts, 1 tune)
    Fowke-Lumbering #63, "Jack Haggerty" (1 text, 1 tune)
    Friedman, p. 421, "Jack Haggerty" (1 text)
    Sandburg, pp. 392-393, "Flat River Girl" (1 text, 1 tune)
    Botkin-NEFolklr, pp. 566-567, "Jack Haggerty, or the Flat River Girl" (1 text, 1 tune)
    Beck 50, "The Flat River Girl" (6 texts, 1 tune)
    DT 607, FLATRVR*

    Roud #642
    RECORDINGS:
    John Leahy, "Jack Haggerty" (on Lumber01)
    John Norman, "Jack Haggerty (The Flat River Girl)" (AFS, 1938; on LC56)

    CROSS-REFERENCES:
    cf. "Harry Bale (Dale, Bail, Bell)" [Laws C13] (tune)
    cf. "I've Got No Use for the Women" (lyrics)
    ALTERNATE TITLES:
    The Platte River Girl
    The Salt Creek Girl
    NOTES: While this is usually a lumberjack's song, Beck reports a cowboy version from Texas. - PJS
    It's actually a sort of a gag; see the report Geraldine J. Chickering (summarized by Laws, NAB pp. 58-59). Haggerty (fl. 1872) was an actual person, but he never had anything to do with the girl in the story; the author, Dan McGinnis, stuck Haggerty's name on another person's story.
    Rickaby, interestingly, investigated in the Flat River area, where he reported that every singer claimed to have known Haggerty (whom he reports to have died c. 1915 -- obviously quite possible), giving additional details about the man's career. But Rickaby failed to uncover McGinnis's involvement in the song.
    Linscott knew a report that the song was by Larry Gorman; this of course is just legend. - RBW
    Last updated in version 2.6
    File: LC25

    Go to the Ballad Search form
    Go to the Ballad Index Song List

    Go to the Ballad Index Instructions
    Go to the Ballad Index Bibliography or Discography

    The Ballad Index Copyright 2013 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.


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Subject: RE: Origins: John Hackety / Jack Haggerty
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 May 13 - 03:15 AM

As a Michigander, I have to emphasize that this is a Michigan song. The Flat River is a tributary of the Grand River in Michigan. The Grand River starts near Jackson in south-central Michigan, and flows into Lake Michigan at Grand Haven (which as a wondrous pair of lighthouses). I grew up near Grand River Avenue in Detroit, not knowing that the Grand River was far, far away (you may have heard of Grand Rapids, though...).
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Origins: John Hackety / Jack Haggerty
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 May 13 - 11:20 AM

Hi, Joe. Missouri, which I live, is lucky enough to have two Grand Rivers. We've taken our rowboat on the little-known northern one.


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Subject: RE: Origins: John Hackety / Jack Haggerty
From: bubblyrat
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 07:23 AM

I used to listen to "Eitre" ,the Irish/Swedish band performing this wonderful fusion of Jack Haggerty (Flat River Girl ) and The Rose In The Heather , but I can't find it on Youtube or anywhere else any more ....... HELP !!!


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Subject: RE: Origins: John Hackety / Jack Haggerty
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Jul 14 - 10:03 PM

Sorry i can't help with that, bubblyrat.

But I looked at the DT and did not find the tune which Touchstone used. The DT has a tune almost identical to 'Sweet Betsy from Pike."

I'm sending a MIDI to Joe of the tune that Touchstone used. I learned it from their album. It's a good little tune, even if it's short.

The tune has two parts which are very similar. You play the first part for as many verses as you can stand, then you play the second part for the final verse.


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Subject: RE: Origins: John Hackety / Jack Haggerty
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 01:21 AM

Here is a midi file from Leeneia for "Flat River Girl."


Click to play (joeweb) [flatrivergirl.mid]



Since I'm Michigan-born and raised in Wisconsin, I'd like people to know that this is a song from the Great Lakes area.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Origins: John Hackety / Jack Haggerty
From: Acorn4
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 06:09 AM

Love this version:-

"Jack Haggerty" - Touchstone

I think they got their version from an earlier one by a singer called Mick hanley.


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Subject: RE: Origins: John Hackety / Jack Haggerty
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 13 Jul 14 - 10:50 AM

If I remember rightly Paul Clayton recorded this sometime in the 1950's on a Riverside LP called 'Timber -r-r'


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Subject: RE: Origins: John Hackety / Jack Haggerty
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 10:36 AM

Thanks for the info about the Grand Haven lights, Joe. I looked them up. Boy, they're red!

Nobody has commented on one of the unusual features of this song. There are a lot of songs which could be titled "Portrait of a Jerk," but this was deliberately intended to be that way.

The Jack Haggerty of the song (if perhaps not in real life) is cocksure and self-righteous. He thinks he's entitled to Anna because HE wants HER, and that's all that matters. Her feelings are irrelevant. (Sad to say, we often run into this attitude in the local crime stories of the newspaper.)

Consider this

"To wed with another she'd a long time delayed,
And the next time I'd see her, she'd never more be a maid."

Do you really think for a minute that a nice young lady of 1872 would write that? No, Jack in his jealousy brooded that "she'd no more be a maid," and he ascribed the thought to her to make her look bad.

Then he blames Anna's mother for the break up, although he has no evidence - because it couldn't be that there's anything wrong with himself!

Finally, he drags in God by His coattails ("to cast off the rigging that God was to tie") to make himself look more justified.

We'll never know who changed Anna to Molly. Molly's just a better name for a feisty lass, I guess. And I've seen Anna's picture, and it looks like her hair is an unremarkable dark brown. So who changed her hair to chestnut (dark red) in the last verse? Redheads are always getting blamed for something.

However, I'm pretty sure the wounds will heal, and in time Jack will find a lady to love him for good.
=============
So I got with my friends, and we add some new elements. One person sings it (somewhat folk-processed)and others throw in what they're really thinking. Square brackets show that.

I'm a heartbroken raftsman. From Greenville I came.
All my virtue's departed for a lass who did fain.
[Keep it clean!]
From the strong darts of Cupid I've suffered much grief.
And my heart's broke asunder. I can get no relief.

Of my trouble I'll tell you without much delay,
[or brevity]
Of a sweet little lass who my heart stole away.
She's a blacksmith's fair daughter on the Flat River side,
And I always intended to make her my bride.
[Had you set a date?]

I worked on the river where the white waters roar, and
my name I've engraved on the high rocky shore.
[Graffiti!]
I'm the boy that stands happy on the dark purling stream.
My thoughts were on Molly. She haunted my dream.

I gave her fine jewels, and the finest of lace.
and the costliest muslins her form to embrace.
I gave her my wages all for to keep safe.
I deprived her of nothing I had on this earth.
[Fine jewels, eh?]

But she sent me a letter which I did relieve,
and she said of her promise herself she'd relieve.
For to wed with another she'd long time delayed,
And the next time I'd see her, she'd never more be a maid.
[She didn't say that!]

On her mother, Jane Tucker, I lay all the blame.
For she caused her to leave me and go back on my name,
To cast off the rigging that God was to tie,
And to leave me a rambler till the day that I die.
[Now what's God got to do with it?]

So come all ye bold raftsmen with hearts stout and true,
Never trust to a woman, for you're beat if you do!
But if you do meet one with a dark chestnut curl,
Just remember Jack Haggerty and the Flat River girl!


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Subject: RE: Origins: John Hackety / Jack Haggerty
From: meself
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 11:26 AM

"Do you really think for a minute that a nice young lady of 1872 would write that?"

Not sure; I'm certain my grandmother, born ca 1890, wouldn't have put it that way, but I don't know about her mother or grandmother - it seems to me fairly typical of the time, and pretty tame - no more than a roundabout way of saying that she'd be married and, therefore, unavailable. In a similar vein, if a nice young lady of today tells us that she will be the 'Maid of Honour' in her friend's wedding, we don't really take that as a comment on her sexual experience or lack thereof. We do take it that she is single (I think - I haven't been following wedding culture lately).

Going a little further back in time, the term "virgin" seems to have been widely used to mean, simply, an unmarried, young woman, whereas today we use that term only in its literal sense. Yes, there was an "assumption" that if a young woman was unmarried, she "must be" a virgin, but of course this would have been a generally agreed-upon falsehood, people three-hundred years ago being no more innocent or naive than they are today.


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Subject: RE: Origins: John Hackety / Jack Haggerty
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 09:41 AM

Right. The song is a satire, and the ill-natured "she'd no more be a maid" is part of the attack.

On then: I woke up this morning, and the first thought in my head was the brilliant insight that the 'fains' are mixed up.

fain - from the Anglo Saxon, means 'gladly'.
feign - from the Old French, means to pretend, imagine, invent

Change my (and Touchstone's) first verse to:


I'm a heartbroken raftsman. From Greenville I came.
All my virtue's departed for a lass who did feign.
==============
Every time I encounter the word 'fain' I remember a deathless scientific poem I learned in grade school:

Scintillate, scintillate globule viscific.
FAIN would I fathom thy nature specific.
Distantly poised in the ether capacious,
closely resembling a gem carbonaceous.


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