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BS: Joan of Arc and family

GUEST,Pope Joan 05 Apr 07 - 11:27 AM
Grimmy 05 Apr 07 - 11:50 AM
Rapparee 05 Apr 07 - 12:53 PM
GUEST,HiLo 05 Apr 07 - 02:16 PM
Rapparee 05 Apr 07 - 03:54 PM
Charley Noble 05 Apr 07 - 04:11 PM
dick greenhaus 05 Apr 07 - 06:12 PM
Micca 05 Apr 07 - 06:21 PM
Mickey191 05 Apr 07 - 07:18 PM
Sorcha 05 Apr 07 - 07:19 PM
Charley Noble 06 Apr 07 - 09:03 AM
Rapparee 06 Apr 07 - 09:13 AM
Little Hawk 06 Apr 07 - 03:20 PM
*daylia* 06 Apr 07 - 04:25 PM
Desdemona 06 Apr 07 - 05:44 PM
Sorcha 06 Apr 07 - 05:50 PM
*daylia* 07 Apr 07 - 07:37 AM
GUEST,Ian cookieless 07 Apr 07 - 12:36 PM
GUEST,meself 07 Apr 07 - 01:00 PM
Liz the Squeak 08 Apr 07 - 06:32 AM
Big Al Whittle 08 Apr 07 - 07:58 AM
GUEST,meself 08 Apr 07 - 08:12 AM
Desdemona 08 Apr 07 - 08:44 AM
GUEST,meself 08 Apr 07 - 08:58 AM
Big Al Whittle 08 Apr 07 - 09:28 AM
John Hardly 08 Apr 07 - 10:29 AM
Big Al Whittle 08 Apr 07 - 02:57 PM
frogprince 08 Apr 07 - 04:46 PM
John Hardly 08 Apr 07 - 05:01 PM
frogprince 08 Apr 07 - 05:03 PM
*daylia* 13 Apr 07 - 09:15 AM
Liz the Squeak 13 Apr 07 - 04:09 PM
GUEST,meself 13 Apr 07 - 04:26 PM
Desdemona 13 Apr 07 - 04:51 PM

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Subject: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: GUEST,Pope Joan
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 11:27 AM

Joan of Arc was a mummy, and had a cat! I never thought of her in such a cosy way before.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: Grimmy
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 11:50 AM

I loved that scene in the classroom from one of the Bill and Ted films:

Teacher: Ted, who was Joan of Arc?
Ted: err...Noah's wife!


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 12:53 PM

There's some evidence that Ol' Joan didn't die in that fire at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 02:16 PM

What evidence would that be ? I know quite a lot of the history of that time, never heard that theory. Would like to read the evidenence though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: Rapparee
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 03:54 PM

As I remember what I read, a woman claiming to be the Maid showed up some years later; she met with the king and several of the nobles who fought with Joan. She was granted an annuity by the king, and either was or eventually married. She was also recognized by her family.

Mind you, this is from memory. Wikipedia and other web sources say that there were several imposters.

Me, I dunno. Somebody was burned at the stake....


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 04:11 PM

Anyone for toasting marshmellows?

Charley Ignoble


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 06:12 PM

Rapaire-

Was that Elvis that she married?


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: Micca
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 06:21 PM

what is the difference betweem Noahs ark and Joan of arc?
one was made of Gopher wood....















the other was Maid of Orleans


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: Mickey191
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 07:18 PM

Was shocked to read the otherday that there were people (Catholics) burned to death in NYC. The reason: there was fear of a Papist plot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 Apr 07 - 07:19 PM

Rumour/lore also says that she was a descendant of Jesus and The Magdalene. Take your pick.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 09:03 AM

"Maid of Orleans" LOL

Shiver me timbers!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 09:13 AM

Ooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhh-kay, Sorcha...I hadn't heard that one. But it explains why the "relics" aren't real relics. You see, if they were real relics we could get the DNA of Jesus and of the Magdalene. So the Church substituted what we have now for the REAL relics so we couldn't extract the DNA and clone Jesus. I guess the real relics are locked away in the Secret Vatican Arhives or maybe in a Circassian monastery in the mountains of France, along with the Ark of the Covenant, the Holy Grail, and the results of the Roswell autopsies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 03:20 PM

Forget about the relics. They don't matter. Read Mark Twain's book "Joan of Arc" instead. It'll get you a whole lot farther.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: *daylia*
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 04:25 PM

Sieur Louis de Conte: Personal Recollections of Joan of Arc by Samuel Langhorne Clemens, aka Mark Twain, 1870.

"Consider this unique and imposing distinction. Since the writing of human history began, Joan of Arc is the only person, of either sex, who has ever held supreme command of the military forces of a nation at the age of seventeen."

LOUIS KOSSUTH


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: Desdemona
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 05:44 PM

Thanks for posting that! It's a very funny story; what won't people make relics of?! I especially liked the wholly fictitious yet authoritatively delivered comment to the effect that "[i]n medieval Europe it was common practice to throw black cats into the pyres of supposed witches." Putting aside the fact that the crimes for which Joan was convicted and burned were heresy and apostasy, I've studied witchcraft in the European Middle Ages pretty closely, and that's a new one on me!

I did a great deal of work on Joan of Arc in the past; in fact, I even used to impersonate her, and all in the line of duty...long story. She's a fascinating character on so many levels, not least of which is her continuing grip on the popular imagination nearly 600 years after her death. I attribute her staying power in part to a certain chameleon-like quality, and the ease with which she can be cast and recast to serve various agenda. The poor thing has been pressed into ideological service as everything from proto-Protestant martyr (nonsense) to proto-feminist (meh...) to misunderstood saint (but not til 1920!) all the way to nationalist icon.

In films alone she's been interpreted as an ethereal mystic, a bratty teenybopper, a mentally unstable fanatic, and a bunch of other stuff along the way. For a particularly fascinating take, see Cecil B. DeMille's 1916 "Joan the Woman," an overt plea on the part of the film-maker for the USA to become involved in World War I and come to the aid of the again-beleaguered France. Taking astonishing liberties with the historical record, DeMille uses a contemporary framing device to juxtapose Joan's willingness to sacrifice herself for the greater good against her nation's current need for a saviour, all the while stressing Joan's "ordinary, womanly" qualities. One of the most interesting things is that this reinterpretation of their national heroine had such a chilly reception in France that it had to be heavily edited into a straight-up piece of patriotic propaganda...while American audiences were apparently willing to see Joan as a "regular" girl, the French required her in a more traditional capacity.

Anyway, I can go on forever on this topic...and I guess I already have! In any case, for solidly researched and accessible books on Joan, I highly recommend Regine Pernoud's "Joan of Arc: Her Story" for a comprehensive, sensitively written biography, and Kelley DeVries' "Joan of Arc: A Military Leader" for a highly readable account of her (all-too-brief) career by a respected scholar of medieval military history. She's certainly a unique figure, and well worth getting to "know" a little better.

~D


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 05:50 PM

Rap, the 'info' comes from Kathleen McGowan's book, The Expected One. I am reserving judgement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: *daylia*
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 07:37 AM

Desdemona, thank you for an intriguing, respectful and informative post and for the titles, too.

I did a great deal of work on Joan of Arc in the past; in fact, I even used to impersonate her, and all in the line of duty...long story. She's a fascinating character on so many levels ... Yes she is, and please say more about your work!


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 12:36 PM

Rapaire: "As I remember what I read, a woman claiming to be the Maid showed up some years later; she met with the king and several of the nobles who fought with Joan. She was granted an annuity by the king, and either was or eventually married. She was also recognized by her family." Sounds suspiciously close to the Holy Blood and Holy Grail / da Vinci Code stories, tranferred to Joan. Does it have the same level of substantiation (i.e. none)?


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 01:00 PM

Not to mention that French film, "The Return of Martin [quelqu'un]", about the soldier who comes to the wife of a man who had gone off to war many years before, and claims to be that man ...


'I especially liked the wholly fictitious yet authoritatively delivered comment to the effect that "[i]n medieval Europe it was common practice to throw black cats into the pyres of supposed witches."'

Sounds like the sort of fakelore that would emerge in explanation of some common saying; e.g. "The man who would fling the cat would need enough room to be able to swing it over his head several times to build up momentum, and this would be a problem due to the hordes of people crowding around to watch the burning. If the cat wasn't flung far enough into the fire, it could jump back out and, running around in flames, set the village on fire. The notion of having enough room "to swing a cat" became blah, blah, blah ... "


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 06:32 AM

I dunno... She went around telling people that God spoke to her and they made her supreme commander of the French Army and a saint...

Try telling anyone these days that God speaks to you in your head and you'll find yourself commander of the rubber room!

My black cat and I are going to go and sit in the sun and talk to each other.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 07:58 AM

too late to help Joan or the cat....


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 08:12 AM

"Try telling anyone these days that God speaks to you in your head and you'll find yourself commander of the rubber room!"

You're not living in the States, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: Desdemona
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 08:44 AM

"Enough room to swimg a cat"...brilliant! It always amazes me the sort of "fakelore" that gets disseminated and automatically accepted as gospel, especially about the so-called Middle Ages (as some historian observed long ago, it's doubtful that medieval people saw themselves or their times as a mere filling in a cultural sandwich!).

For a number of years I was in charge of research, development and delivery of educational programs at a museum of (primarily medieval, Renaissance and early modern) arms and armour. The myths surrounding armor and weaponry are seemingly endless: "blood runnels" in broadswords, pointy Gothic sabatons (foot defenses) for "kicking"(!), people being hoisted onto horses with cranes, etc. I remember with particular affection an overheard conversation between a father and son in which the Dad explained how the Crusaders started out using horses, but "after King Arthur lost them all in the Holy Land they had to use oxen"! You couldn't make this stuff up.

One of the most FAQs we got was whether women ever wore armour or took part in battle. The long answer is that there are actually a fair number of women on record as having taken an active part in warfare; in fact, I had a whole programme on "women warriors" from Boudicca to Isabella of Castile. That said, for the most part the only ones whose names come down to us were influential noblewomen; Joan of Arc is the big exception because of her relatively humble origins (her father was prosperous tenant farmer with about 50 acres, so they weren't "peasants" in the way most people think of them). Thanks to her highly unusual life, she's also incredibly well-documented for a person of her social class; trial transcripts, anecdotes from the villagers in Domremy, and the impressions of her military companions add up to a wealth of information.

Because of the trial, a great many of her own words are preserved; when I decided to develop a first-person interpretation of Joan for the museum, I was able to use mostly her own words, which gave the presentation an authentic-sounding "voice." We had the costume made based on the description of what she was wearing at the time of her arrest in 1430; basically the clothing of a well-dressed young nobleman of the time. It's important to realise that the subversiveness of Joan's cross-dressing existed on several levels: not only was she crossing gender lines, but socio-economic ones as well, which was just as threatening in 15th century Europe. One of the points stressed by her captors was that she must promise to never wear men's clothing again; that she retracted her agreement to this among other terms was instrumental in sending her to the stake.

In reading her testimony, and the anecdotes told by her fellow soldiers, one is struck by the sense of swagger and assurance--she's more swashbuckling than meekly pious. It's apparent that, although a necessary part of what she saw as her mission, she nevertheless LIKED being a "knight"---she liked the horses, the armour, the sword, the standard. The sense of power and the authority and respect accorded her (albeit for only a short while) must have been intoxicating for a 17 year old girl who had previously been no more than 10 miles from her home. We can never know for certain exactly what was going on with Joan--there have been as many theories as interpretations, with everything from migraine headaches, epilepsy, schizophrenia and a really bad time with puberty being vetted as possibilities (to say nothing of the theory that she was hearing the voices of Sts Michael, Catherine and Margaret, as she claimed). My answer to the question was that it doesn't really matter; what matters is that SHE believed she had been granted a divine commission, which she duly carried it out and for which she suffered terrible consequences. Whether we believe her assertions or not, we can't help but be impressed by the grit, determination and obvious charisma of a farm girl who made her way to the French court and convinced an uncrowned (and ultimately unworthy) king to put her in charge of an army.

~D


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 08:58 AM

Yes - no matter how you look at it, it's an astounding story.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 09:28 AM

and no way to treat a cat...


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: John Hardly
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 10:29 AM

Jonah Vark. He lived three days in the belly of a whale.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 02:57 PM

Joan Ozark - they threw a cat at her and she used its guts to string a banjo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: frogprince
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 04:46 PM

In wonder to what degree this will be like the Shroud of Turin; how many "true believers" will brand the "disprovers" as infidels and enemies of the faith?


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: John Hardly
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 05:01 PM

Joan was a welder by trade.


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: frogprince
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 05:03 PM

Make that "I wonder"...


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: *daylia*
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 09:15 AM

Wow Desdemona, what an intriguing, inspiriting inspiriing job you describe (envy envy!)   Thanks for posting your story, and I'm just wondering ...

Joan was tried by the English, but her trial was conducted in French right? (can't seem to confirm this anywhere online ...)    So, you used a translation of her words for your impersonation?


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 04:09 PM

She'd probably be tried by the nobles, who spoke French. It was always the language of the royal court. Anne Boleyn spent much of her childhood at the French court and spoke Courtly French as well as English. The ties between France and Britain were very strong - half the royal families were related to each other, Scotland had a French princess as their queen, Mary of Guise, mother of James I & VI... French was not an unknown language to the nobles of England.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 04:26 PM

Of course, Joan's time was a little earlier ... not that that makes much difference, I don't think ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Joan of Arc and family
From: Desdemona
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 04:51 PM

Joan's trial was in France, and the transcriptions are primarily in French, although some documents are in Latin (still the "official," learned language). A friend directed me to the contemporary description of her clothing at the time of her arrest, and a colleague did the translation, after which I had the costume made by a husband & wife team who make excellent medieval and Renaissance clothing and armour. I highly recommend them for their excellent research, meticulous attention to detail and overall amazing quality. You can check out their web-site here:

http://www.historicenterprises.com/

In terms of French vs English language use in England, after the Norman Conquest the lingua franca of the English court was typically "Anglo-Norman" French, and there's no reason to believe that any English king from the 12th-early 14th centuries made much use of the "native" tongue (in fact it's well-established that Richard Coeur de Leon didn't speak a word of it, and why should he have, since he spent less than 6 months of his ten-year reign in England?). It was only in the mid to late 14th century that vernacular English started appearing with any frequency in literature (think Gower, Chaucer, etc.), and it wasn't until Henry IV (1399-1412) that official documents, proclamations, etc. were issued in English. It's no small irony that the amalgamated--albeit primarily Germanic--tongue of this oft-conquered island became arguably the most influential, if not most widely spoken, language in the world!

~D


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