Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues

Subject: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 04:35 PM

Yeah, they call it doo wop now, but I've never really liked the term. On the Smoke Gets In Your Eyes thread, it looks like Mariner and I have devolved into a discussion of doo wop, so I'm starting this thread for those who enjoy the music. It's been a lifetime love of mine, and I notice that some folk festivals are beginning to accept doo wop as a valid form of folk music. So, it didn't grow up in the cotton fields or the mines, and cowboys rarely sang it. But, the music grew out of mostly black urban communities and has strong links to gospel and blues.

Whatever.

Last year, I led a workshop at the NOMAD festival titled Church & Street Corner Harmony, with my mostly black gospel quartet and a five man a capella doo wop group swapping songs. Since then, the two groups have formed a mutually supportive friendship and two of the doo wop group members have joined my gospel (now) quintet. All of this has been soulfully refreshing, and I've been enjoying sharing the old rhythm and blues groups with friends, and Catters. I've also been sharing interesting books on the subject that give a wonderful background into the early groups.

There may be other threads on doo wop in here, but I never seem to have much success using the Search engine. Even if there are, who says we can't start another one?

If nothing else, Mariner, Ron Davies, jimmyt and I will have a street corner to hang out on. We've already got a kitchen table.

What else is there?

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 05:03 PM

That's what I get for being lazy. There are tons of threads on Doo Wop..

Sorry....

But not entirely..

Think I'll go back and read some of them, though...

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 05:25 PM

Jerry, I was a teen-ager before WW2, so not really exposed to doo-wop. Heard it casually, found it pleasant and non-objectionable, but not something to which I reacted strongly. As a result, I have to define it for myself so that I know what you are talking about- hope you don't mind.

Doo-wop [fr. nonsense syllables typical of the style] (1969): a vocal style of rock and roll characterized by the a cappella singing of nonsense syllables in rhythmical support of the melody. "Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary," Tenth Edition. 1996.

Doo-wop- 1. Music. a style of rhythm and blues in which a lead vocalist sings over a rhythmically chanted background of nonsense syllables: a style popular esp. in the 1950's. Now S. E.
1969 in Oxford English Dictionary II: They do the doo-waps, rock and roll, rhythm and blues.
1981, Miller in "Jargon" 1981; Doo-wop: Type of fifties rock or R and B in which the backup vocals involved the repetition of such phrases as "doo-wop," "sh-bop," "Sh-boom," doo-lang" and the like.
2. a foolish, inconsequential person.
J. E. Lighter, 1994, "Historical Dictionary of American Slang," vol. 1.

The 'word' first heard- 1955, "When You Dance," sung by the Turbans.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 05:45 PM

Thanks, Q:

Definitions are always fine. They give an approximation of things.
I guess what I don't like about the term is that it tends to reduce the music to it's most novelty form. Groups like the Platters, and many others didn't constantly yammer mop-bop-a-lu- bop in the background. Many of the classic ballads of the rhythm and blues groups owed as much to the popular music of the 40's by groups like the Ink Spots as to early rock and roll.

Also, many of the greatest rhythm and blues groups and singers came out of the black churches and were the roots of soul music, hip hop and all the ensuing forms of music.

All that's neither here nor there, I guess. I just happen to love the music.

I always enjoy your posts, by the way, Q.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 06:29 PM

Glad you found the others.....Here's a worthless post for this one!

I kinda' think it a bit differently----All Doo-Wop is R&B but all R&B is not Doo-Wop.

Big Deal huh? Sorry.....just crossed my mind (which is a very short traverse)

Spaw

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 07:15 PM

U Right, Spaw:

Like me, your age is showing. Rhythm and Blues is Little Richard and Fats Domino and Ivory Joe Hunter, and all the groups that are now called Doo Wop.

Talk about words becoming meaningless. Now, "rhythm and blues" is a totally different animal. Definitely short on rhythm.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 07:26 PM

Hey, I was born in Detroit. I always thought R&B was the name outsiders used for what is properly know and Motown.
And I'm stickin' to it.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 07:38 PM

Hey, Joe:

Rhythm and blues was flourishing when the Temptations were in diapers... :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 07:42 PM

"with my mostly black gospel quartet and a five man a capella doo wop group swapping songs. Since then ... two of the doo wop group members have joined my gospel (now) quintet"

Hope you haven't printed up the new business cards yet, Jerry - 'cause it sounds like what you've got now is a sextet!

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 07:53 PM

Good math, meself. I was wondering if anyone would catch that.. :-)
For the last two years, my "quartet" was really a trio. Now, depending on where we sing, and what time of day, we are either a trio (during week day work hours, when the two new members can't sing with us) a quartet (as we were, the time before last, when we sang,) Or a quintet (as we were, the last time we sang.) It makes the harmonies interesting, because they change, depending on how many people are singing.

I don't think I could handle a sextet..

Funny thing is, the Fairfield Four (who sang in Brother, Where Art Thou) are a trio, but not too long ago were a quintet. Many "quartets" are actually quintets. The term gospel quartet denotes a style of singing, more than the number of members in the group.

Heck, I've even been the Gospel Messengers on more than one occasion as a solo, and my friend Joe and I were a "quartet" that looked suspiciously like a duo.

Math was never my strong suit..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 07:57 PM

Hey, Jerry, and you think Detroit didn't have that music before the Temptations? I suppose before Berry Gordy, Philadelphia was thought of as the home of "that kind" of music.
Confound it all, sometimes I think I must be older than you, or something.
Well, I suppose it might have been called "race music" (I hate that term) before they came up with R&B and Motown.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 08:00 PM

I am a little confused by your statement "rhythm and blues is Little Richard...and all the groups that are now called Doo-Wop." To me, doo-wop is the music of the definitions I gave above- the peculiar stylistic solo with doo-wap, etc. vocalizations by the group, an offshoot or branch of R & B that is not heard much now.

To me, Rhythm and Blues, an older term, from the 1950's, comprises the music starting in the 40's and including Otis Redding, Lou Rawls, Aretha Franklin (part), Buddy Guy, B. B. King (part), much from Chicago and Detroit, etc. Shows roots in Blues, Gospel, and some jazz. I wouldn't include them with the doo-woppers.
Doo-wop is an offshoot, now nostalgic, a small part of living rhythm and blues.

I guess each of us has his own definitions.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 08:12 PM

"Math was never my strong suit.."

As for me, I was what they call "a mathematical genius". I made it all the way up to 9+8! After that, I get a little shaky, but still ...


Q: I think you misread Jerry - he was saying the same thing you are, that Doo-Wop is a sub-genre of R&B (it encompasses Little Richard et al PLUS "all the groups that are now called Doo-Wop").

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 08:16 PM

meself, I was beginning to wonder about Jerry. I hope you are right.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 08:37 PM

"The History of Doo Wop

The early 1950's signified the true beginning of Doo Wop music, which was a derivative of the rhythm and blues and jazz music styles.

Doo Wop first began in the inner cities, most prominently Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Doo Wop began with friends gathering on street corners, on their back porches, or just about anywhere, and making up songs.

Doo Wop got its name for its characteristically senseless lyrics. It is filled with lines like "doo-be-doo-be", "sh-boom, sh-boom", "do-be-do-be-do", etc., which are most often sung by the baritone singer. Mostly these senseless lyrics were used as background while somebody sang the lead on top.

Instead of one vocalist with musicians to back them up, Doo Wop relied solely on the vocalists themselves to create all the harmonies. While later Doo Wop was sometimes done with instruments, the instrumentation was very minimal, and voiced harmonies still remained the main aspect of Doo Wop music. Harmonizing is the key in Doo Wop music.

There are several characteristics of Doo Wop music, one of which is the unique range of voices. The typical ranges of voices in a Doo Wop group are the lead singer, the falsetto/first tenor, second tenor, and a baritone singer. While falsetto was usually done as background, one group in particular, the Four Seasons, capitalized on their lead singer, Frankie Valli's, amazing 3 and a half octave vocal range, making falsetto the lead voice. Another characteristic of Doo Wop music is that it is usually very simple and easy to sing along to, which is one of the main factors leading to its success. Many people enjoyed it because they could participate in it, and recreate it themselves."...

-snip-

There's more where this came from at http://www.doowopcenter.com/doowop-history.html

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 08:44 PM

Here's YouTube video that is a classic example of Doo Wop:

Five Satins - In the Still of the Night

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBT3oDMCWpI

Added December 17, 2006 ;From azitis
"Fred Parris, leader vocal of the group wrote this song in 1955 at the basement of a local church"

-snip-

Btw, the comments written by YouTube viewers of this video make for some interesting reading.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 09:03 PM

Hey, Q: In the 50's, the term doo wop hadn't even been invented (I don't think.) I don't know when someone coined the term, but in the heyday of The Penguins, The Orioles, The Moonglows, The Spaniels and all the other groups, they were all called rhythm and blues groups, as was Little Richard, Fats Domino and Ivory Joe Turner. It was only later (I think that a New York City dj coined the term "Doo wop") when the groups were identified as their own type of music.

Maybe someone can track down who it was that first coined the term "doo wop." All I know is that when I listened to black radio stations in the 50's, it was all called Rhtyhm and Blues.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 09:06 PM

By the way, Fred Parris lives in New Haven.. ten miles from here. I've met him on a couple of occasions, most recently at a wonderful Doo Wop concert that had several classic groups including the Satins (no confusion on numers here.. Fred Parris can't use the term The Five Satins, for legal reasons) The Jive Five (there were six of them...) The Chiffons and several other lesser-known groups, including my friends, The Sentinels.

New Haven was a hotbed of doo wop groups, and I have a friend who was present when In The Still Of The Night was recorded, and also sang with the Nutmegs (a Connecticut group) and the Flamingos.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 09:10 PM

..."Fred Parris lives in New Haven.. ten miles from here. I've met him on a couple of occasions"...

I'm glad that I found that particular video for this thread. Call it synchronicity-or something like that.

Btw, Jerry [or anyone else], have you ever heard of any women only doo wop groups?

I can't think of any.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 09:28 PM

See these two online articles about where the name "Doo-Wop" comes from and what was the first Doo Wop record:

"WHERE'D WE GET THE NAME DOO-WOP?

We know that thanks to deejay Alan Freed, the old blues term "rock and roll" became the official euphemism for marketing R&B to white kids in late 1954. We know that the term rockabilly, or rock-a-billy, a hybrid of rock and hillbilly, was coined by the music industry in 1956. But where did the term doo-wop come from, and how early was it used?

As far as we can tell (thanks to doo-wop fan Tim Lucy), the nonsense syllables "doo-wop" first appeared on wax in 1954 on a song called "Never" by a Los Angeles group called Carlyle Dundee & The Dundees (Space 201). The background group sings "doo-wop" in the the song's chorus. Members of The Dundees later became The Calvanes.

The first hit record showcasing "doo-wop" came in 1955 with The Turbans' Top 40 recording of "When You Dance" (Herald 458). The group chanted "doo-wop" several times, very plainly."

http://www.electricearl.com/dws/origin.html
The Doo Wop Society of Southern California-Origin of the name "Doo Wop"

-snip-

"The term "doo-wop" was taken from the ad-lib syllables sung in harmony in doo-wop songs. Two songs in particular may lay claim to being the "first" to contain the syllables "doo wop" in the refrain: the 1955 hit, "When You Dance" by The Turbans, in which the chant "doo wop" can be plainly heard; and the 1956 classic "In the Still of the Night (I Remember)" by The Five Satins, with the plaintive "doo wop, doo wah" refrain in the bridge.

It has been erroneously reported that the phrase was coined by radio disc jockey Gus Gossert in the late 1950s. However, Gossert himself has said that "doo-wop(p) was already being used [before me] to categorize the music in California."[1]. It became the fashion in the 1990s to keep expanding the definition backward to take in Rhythm & Blues groups from the mid-1950s and then further back to include groups from the early 1950s and even the 1940s. There is no consensus as to what constitutes a doo-wop song and many aficionados of R&B music dislike the term intensely, preferring to use the term "group vocal harmony" instead."...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doo-wop

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 09:46 PM

Hey, Azizi:

The Chiffons, who we heard at the doo wop concert this year was a trio of women. There were also the Shirelles, The Bobbettes, the Ronnettes, The Shangrilas The Dixie Cups, etc... The Chiffons big hits were One Fine Day and He's So fine.

The thing that really pleased me, hearing the old groups was that many of them have brought their children, and grand children into the group. The Chiffons, for example were one of the original group, and two of her daughters. Fred Satin's group, The Satins, included his grandson on sax.

It's nice to see the music being carried on in the family.

One major difference between doo wop and other forms of music is that
no doo wop can ever be written again. It's in a time capsule (kinda like folk music :-)) Even more than that, if you want to sing Blue Moon, you have to sing it exactly like the Marcels, or you'd be booed off the stage. I've talked with my friend Ken from the Sentinels about this. I asked him why people can't continue to write songs in the style of doo wop... why it has to be frozen in time. Unfortunately, doo wop is music to wash your Mustang by. It is nostalgia, and therefore cannot be changed.

Of course, there are ways around that. I've written a couple of gospel songs in classic doo wop style. I tell Ken that he could sing them and say that he learned them from a very rare pressing of an orange 45 r.p.m. by the Penguins. As long as it's already been done, it's alright to sing it, as long as you sing it EXACTLY like the original recording.

And you thought folkies were purists!!!!!!:-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: AWG
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 10:00 PM

What if they just 'lip-sync'. Who would know ????

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 10:14 PM

Everybody would, AWG. The audience may be there for nostalgia, and there's always a woman in a poodle skirt and saddle shoes, but they are extremely serious about the music..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: AWG
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 10:17 PM

Oh I forgot myself,with all the talk about lip-synch and such in this forum lately.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 10:33 PM

There's a lot of lip sync going on in hip hop, because everyone has to be a dancer, and it's hard to sing when you're huffing and puffing, AWG..

The thing that excited me in the early 50's, is much the same thing that excited me when I started hearing folk music more regularly in the early 60's. I remember when Frankie Lane first started having hit records. They had a cover story about him in the Sunday section of the Milwaukee Journal and the thing that they marveled at was that "He'd never taken voice lessons!!!!!!!!!" At the time, that was considered almost shocking. There was a revolution that took place in music in the early fifties. Up until then, all the most popular singers had come out of the big bands in the forties. When Don Howard recorded Oh Happy Day in a record-your-own-voice booth with just his guitar (and a lousy singing voice) and had a smash hit with it, despite every effort to suppress it, the doors were opened.
Out of that came rhythm and blues, rockabilly and rock and roll. And folk music, as a viable popular music. I had a friend of mine who recorded a couple of songs that he wrote in a small, local studio and traveled around the area convincing dj's to play it by giving them strawberries that were raised on his father's farm. For a while, "folk" took over the music industry and anyone could walk into a small store-front studio, like Sun Records, and make a hit record. The play lists on radio stations were more catholic than they'd ever been, or will likely ever be again. I found that time period very exciting, for the rhythm and blues, rockabilly, rock and roll and folk music that I was suddenly hearing. These days, Corporations decide what you hear.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 12:51 AM

One of the more striking features of doo-wop is its use of falsetto. That carried on into the Beach Boys (along with the harmonies), and into Motown (think Smokey Robinson), and has become established as an "option" in mainstream pop. Before doo-wop came along, falsetto seemed to be used only in "marginal" music such as Delta blues and Native chant; of course, doo-wop started out marginal.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 07:51 AM

Wikipedia's entry on falsetto indicates that the "Use of falsetto voice in western music is very old. Its origins are difficult to trace because of ambiguities in terminology. In a book by GB Mancini, called Penseri e riflessioni written in 1774, falsetto is equated with 'voce di testa' (translated as 'head voice'). Possibly when 13th century writers distinguished between chest, throat and head registers (pectoris, guttoris, capitis) they meant capitis to refer to what would be later called falsetto."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsetto#History

-snip-

Also, male falsetto singing is often given as a characteristic of traditional African singing.

See for example this excerpt from http://www.history.org/foundation/journal/winter02-03/music.cfm :

"Historians know much about African music because African songs, dances, and instruments fascinated European traders and explorers. During the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, they recorded their observations in letters, diaries, and books...

To Western ears, African singing was alien. One listener called it "a rude noyse." Singers performed intensely, and liberally employed falsetto, shouts, groans, and deep rumblings. The nasal, loud, and shrill qualities of African singers deeply impressed Europeans. So did their tendency, unlike Westerners', to use spontaneity, improvisation, and response in their performances."

-snip-

With regard to that excerpt, all African music does not sound 'nasal, loud and shrill". Different African ethnic groups * have their own sound preferences. It seems to me that we {African Americans} prefer deep, gritty voices though sometimes we also like the males singing falsetto {think R&B singer Smokey Robinson}. Btw, that gritty, hoarse voice also seems to be a feature in alot of Jamaican music and perhaps the music of other Caribbean peoples. But then again, quite a few African Americans have Caribbean roots, and African American and Afro-Caribbean people can trace at least part of their ancestry to Africa, so we're back where we started from.


* I believe that the term 'ethnic group' is preferable to the term 'tribe'. Imo, the term "tribe' has vestiges of patronizing, if unconscious racism. Think about it- when have you last heard European ethnic groups referred to as tribes? Why is 'tribes' only used to refer to people of color such as Africans and Indians?

Hmmm.


I'm sorry for the mini-rant, and so early in the morning too.
I think I'll go listen to some music, like this:

Sesame Street - Doo Wop Doo Wop Hop!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62rrA7f7ZHU

-snip-

I'm aware that this isn't the kind of Doo Wop that is the focus of this thread. But this uptempo song sung by the Sesame Street character "Kermit the Frog" has a call & response structure and includes the words "doo wop doo wop don't stop".
So does that make it doo-wop? Hey, you tell me.

Besides, this song was the first YouTube video I found using the key words "doo wop". And it helped me get through to the other side of the serious mood I was in.

Thank you, Kermit the Frog.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 08:33 AM

I see that meself also included {think Smokey Robinson} in parenthesis.

So maybe that makes me a copy cat. {Mudcatter, that is}

I'll admit it. I'm not a big fan of falsetto singing . But, hey, different strokes for different folks.

Here's one example of falsetto singing I like:

Frankie Lymon & The Teenagers - Why Do Fools Fall In Love

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q96ylFiQK_I

But then, again. I'm not sure that's really falsetto singing since Frankie Lymon was only 13 years old when he and the rest of the group recorded that hit song. Maybe his voice hadn't changed yet. Maybe he wasn't purposely singing in a higher register {??}.

But-in any event-"Why Do Fools Fall In Love" is a surely an example of R&B Doo Wop music as the refrain line is "do wah do wah do-ooh wah do wah."

****

Correction:

The correct words for the refrain in that Kermit the Frog song is "doo wop doo wop hop, don't stop".

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 08:55 AM

Frankie Lymon wasn't singing in falsetto, I don't believe. He, and Little Anthony set the pattern for schoolboy, high tenor leads.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 09:34 AM

Okay. Thanks Jerry.

Btw, I should have transcribed that line in "Why Do Fools Fall In Love" as "do wah/do wah/do-ooh wah-ah/do wah."

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 10:30 AM

I smile when I read the origin of "doo Wop." I've been re-reading a wonderful book, They All Sang On The Corner, by Philip Groia that talks in great depth about the street corner groups in New York City from 1954 into the 60's. (I note that the subtitle is "A Second Look At New York City's Rhythm And Blues Groups'" with no mention of the word doo wop. There is almost no recognition that many of the groups came out of the black churches, and that the style of singing is very familiar in black gospel. The articles and books talk about the sudden appearance of the bass lead. Apparently they never heard groups like The Harmonizing Four and The Fairfield Four which were enormously popular in the black community and predate rhythm and blues by tgwenty years. The same with falsetto singing. Falsetto singing was fairly common in black gospel, long before "doo wop."
Even the nonsense syllables predate doo wop, although they weren't as humorous or imaginative. Listen to many of the early black gospel groups and you'll hear the harmonies taking the place of instruments in groups that sang a capella. Groups like the Five Blind Boys Of Mississippi recorded songs that, with a change in lyrics would sound like a recording by the Penguins or Orioles.

If you want to hear where rhythm and blues groups came from, listen to black gospel, jump tunes from 40's groups like Louis Jordan and the black comedy routines with music of the black vaudeville era.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: fat B****rd
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 03:34 PM

Great thread Jerry. One of my personal favourites is The Capri's "There's A Moon Out Tonight".

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 03:53 PM

Hey, fat: The Capri's did a new album in the 80's with a new song, "There's A Moon Out Again" which I like even better than "There's A Moon Out Tonight," which is one of my favorite R & B ballads.

When my wife and I were married 9 years ago, we considered long and hard what the first record we wanted to be played at the reception. It was neck and neck between To The Aisle and My Prayer. We opted for To The Aisle (also by the 5 Satins.)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: GUEST,Mike in DC
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 03:55 PM

"Talk about words becoming meaningless. Now, "rhythm and blues" is a totally different animal. Definitely short on rhythm."

Could you elaborate on that, Jerry? A few years back, I asked a young co-worker what kinds of music she liked. When she mentioned rhythm and blues, I threw out a few names, none of which she recognized. So apparently there is this new genre, or at least one completely divorced from its roots. Is it like rap? hip-hop?
Clueless in DC

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 03:57 PM

The real transcription for "Why Do Fools Fall In Love":
"ooh wah/ooh wah/ooh wah-ah/ooh wah/way do fools fall in love"

Sorry about those my mistakes.


****

fat B****rd -Here's the YouTube video of
There's A Moon Out Tonight - The Capris

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKjsuc7Pdhc

Filmed Live May 11 and 12, 1999 at the Benedum Center for the Performing Arts in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: fat B****rd
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 04:04 PM

Good evening, Jerry and thankyou. Azizi, thank YOU for that. A sentimental old devil like me do like a bit of romance.
PS Wasn't Jerry Wexler credited with inventing the term Rhythm & Blues ?

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 05:04 PM

Watch out, Azizi - he's got that twinkle in his eye ... !

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: MARINER
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 05:55 PM

Just watched The Capris on YouTube. Not bad at all when you consider all the years that have passed since they first sang it.Nice bit of falsetto .
I think the first time i became aware of Doo-Wop was when i used to listen to Radio Luxembourg's Jamboree on Staurday nights, way back in the 50s . For some reason I always associate The Del-Vikings "Whispering Bells" with that show, probably heard it first there .The Del-Vikings were said to be the first multi racial vocal group to chart .I seem to remember that they were all Air Force men ,which might explain how they first got together.(both races were in the forces ).Whereas I'm led to believe out on civvy street inter racial mixing was not so common in the 50s .
Were they the first multi racial vocal group to make it?.Off hand i can't think of any others before them.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 07:11 PM

Are we talking irony, or what, Mariner? The first inter-racial vocal group to make it were named.................

drum roll................................

The Mariners!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They were regulars on the Arthur Godfrey show and had several hit records, the most popular of them I See The Moon. They were more barber shop than doo wop, but I guess everything comes full circle, as black barber shops are at the heart of the black community.

I too loved the Del Vikings. One of very favorite rhythm and blues albums is a collection of songs that they did as an audition. Their versions of Sunday Kind Of Love and White Cliffs Of Dover, done a capella have never been equaled (in my mind..)

Jerry

I'll get back to what contemporary rhythm and blues is, as best I know, because I don't listen to it with any regularity.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: pdq
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 07:47 PM

In the late 1920s, Hoagy Carmichael and Eddie Lang were joined by guitar genuis Lonnie Johnson and cornet player "King" Oliver to form the group "Blind Willie Dunn's Gin Bottle Four". The latter two were Black. The recording I have by them is 1929.

In the late 1930s, Benny Goodman started a series of "small combos" which had from four to seven members. Gene Krupa (also Jewish) was featured along with piano player Teddy Wilson and vibes man Lionel Hampton, the latter two Black. Some of their best work included pioneer electric guitar player Charlie Christian, also Black.

Mixed groups but not Doo Wop.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 07:59 PM

Hey, pdq... I think the question was, were the Del Vikings the first mixed-race vocal group. Racial barriers broke down much earlier in music (especially in jazz) than in the rest of society..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 08:27 PM

Contemporary Rhythm and Blues: The best I can categorize this music (and forgive me, because I am out of my elephant, here) is that
it is more from the Barry White, Smokey Robinson end of the old R & B spectrum. These days, most of the contemporary artists I'm aware of are women. Some examples: Alicia Keys, Indie Arie (I bought her first album) Erekah Badhu and Macy Gray. All of these artists draw upon older soul music, jazz and hip hop. They also get labeled as Urban music. I still have no clear idea what hip hop is. When I looked it up in Wikepdeia, my only response was. Yeah, like Wikepedia would really know.. they define it solely (not soully) as rap music. I may not know for sure what hip hop is, but it's much more than rap. In Michael Jackson's last attempts to reinvent himself and get some street creds, he used some of the best known hip hop arrangers. Whitney Houston went in the same direction. Equally unsuccessfully. One of the current groups I've enjoyed at the Black Eyed Peas. I think they're probably considered hip hop.
With the exception of Black Eyed Peas, most of the rest of this stuff is very smooth.

Nary a Wilson Pickett to be found.

I'd appreciate anyone correcting these statements. I'm on unfamiliar turf here..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 08:33 PM

Sounds like Azizi's got herself a homework assignment ... !

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: GUEST,Mike in DC
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 10:52 PM

Thanks Jerry. I've actually heard of Alicia Keys and Macy Gray. I must be hipper than I thought.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 11:46 PM

You talkin 'bout me?

You TALKIN 'bout me?

You talkin 'bout ME?

[Okay somebody guess which movie I'm tryin to mimic].

I've always loved that line. I like its attitude. And attitude is what makes hip-hop rappin real.

[If you aint got it then fake it till you make it or you are made or you make something of yourself hopefully something for real].

Back to that line from that movie-which stars a favorite actor of mine-not that this has anything to do with rap hiphop or the price of beans in Boston but it might since that line is about word play and playin with words shifting their meaning spelling them as they sound and changing their look in unique but culturally prescribed ways- thats the hip hop part of rap-its a culture, see.

Hip hop don't stop. Rap is also about counter-culture except that hip hop is its own culture and bling bling is about getting paid and living high off the hog which is old school but then again rap hip hop is old enough to have more than one old school.

Hip-Hop rapping is sub-genres within a musical genre that some people still don't consider music though rappin traces its roots back back waaay back past the blues and past the talking gospel quartets where people merged the line between talk and singing the since its all about the power of the spoken chanted singing written and unwritten word. Rap goes all the way back to the Motherland where it was called Nommo.

Ase' Ase'.

Some rappers toasters mcs djs hip hoppers don't stop there but reach back all the way back past blues, and calypso and Muhammad Ali rhyming and kids playground versing back to Mother Africa to the real deal energy of the jeliman {otherwise known as griots] who let everyone know who was the greatest. I'm talkin braggadocio here. And needless to say that some rappers use/used words that are/were hip, and cool, and sometimes these words got other people much too hot and they got cold. I'm talkin word plays and riffs that aren't/weren't fun & games but are/were downright blood against blood if you know what I mean.

If you're talkin about hip hop/rap, you're talkin about a life style that encompasses the visual as well as the audio. You're talkin about clothes sportin, and many times pants sagging sometimes more than I prefer but that's neither here nor there. If you talkin about rap you talking the visual as wall as the audio word creating shifting meanings the look almost as important as the sound.

If you're talkin about hip hop/rap you're talkin about art drawing and dance dancing and it's the attitude, that is at the heart of it all. If you aint down with the attitude then don't bother to try to bring it won't mean a thing cause it aint got that-well ya know.

And that's all I'm saying about that.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: fat B****rd
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 04:03 AM

In the UK any contemporary black music that isn't easily definable, e.g. reggae or rap, is called R'N'B*. I prefer to refer to individual acts rather than genres, but if you're talking to someone who doesn't , ahem , share your knowledge then labels save a lot of time.
*BTW I've never heard the initials R'N'B explained in it's modern form.
PS Weren't The Marcels a mixed race group ?.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: MARINER
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 07:46 AM

Yeah The Marcels were mixed race but they came way after The Del-Vikings.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: MARINER
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 01:12 PM

Who are the members of "The Doo-Wop All Stars" and the "Legends of Doo-Wop .Anyone know?

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 01:19 PM

Haven't heard of them, Mariner.. are they over your way?

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: MARINER
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 01:28 PM

Jerry , No they're not from this part of the world. Both are American . I saw them on YouTube .The "All Stars are an all white group, the others an all black group.Or was that the other way round, ? Can't remember!.
By the way, in what category would you put my all time favourites The Coasters?