Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 04:53 PM

Before this thread is put to bed, here's a little history:

"The category Rhythm & Blues first appeared in the Billboard charts in Juen of 1949.",

"athough initially a strictly commercial term, it gradually came to denote non-religious black music - excluding Gospel and pure jazz and later, the blues revival, whose fans were mostly white."

In the charts, Rhythm and Blues became Soul in 1969, then "Black" in 1982 before returning to Rhythm And Blues in 1990."

These quotes are from the booklet of a great 2 cd collection of "The Best of Rhythm & Blues Hits 1952/1953.

1952/53 was a prime time for Rhythm & Blues. Here are a few of the performers included on the two disc, 48 track set:

Earl Bostic
Howlin' Wolf
B.B. King
Wynonie Harris
Lightnin' Hopkins
Dinah Washington
Ruth Brown
Big Joe Turner
The Clovers
Fats Domino
Billy Ward & The Dominoes
Lloyd Price
Johnny Ace
Little Walkte
Willie Mabon
Shirley & Lee
Big Maybelle
Tiny Bradshaw
The 5 Royales
The Du-Droppers
Big Mama Thornton
Chuck Willis
The Orioles
Faye Adams
The Drifters

As the commercial used to say... "It's all in there.." From the Chicago blues of Howlin' Wolf the women of R & B, Ruth Brown, Dinah Washinton and Big Maybelle and Big Mama Thornton to the early "doo wop" groups like the Clovers, the 5 Royales and Billy Ward and The DOminos. And toss in Fats Domino and Earl Bostic.

I graduated from High School in 1953, so this music is particularly vivid to me. Very little of this music was top 40 on the pop music stations. You ahd to pick up the black radio stations in the larger cities late at night to hear it.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 08:34 PM

Ken Mewes is the leader of an a capella doo wop group, The Sentinels. He has recently joined the Gospel Messengers as has one of the tenors of the Sentinels. We are a walking workshop of doo wop and black gospel.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 08:11 PM

Great response, Poppa:

You might want to check out the book They All Sang On The Corner by Phil Groia. It's an extremely detailed history of rhythm and blues groups in New York at the beginning of commercial recording. I just loaned my copy to Ken Mewes... the leader of the a capella doo wop group who has now joined the Sentinels. He wasn't familiar with the book.

At our last practice while we were eating dinner, I put on a video of the Fairfield Four... one of the great black gospel quartets of all time. Ken has heard very little black gospel. As we were watching, Ken said, "I've never heard anything like this! If anyone askes me where doo wop comes from, I'll tell them that it came from black gospel." Of course, it came from a variety of sources, including blues and the Ink Spots and Louis Jordan, black vaudeville and all the rest. But, black gospel was a primary source, because so many of the pioneer rhythm and blues singers came out of the black church... both indidivual singers, and groups. At one point, I had to laugh, because as the lead singer was doing a gospel song, the other members of the quartet were singing "doo wop" in the background. The specific words, "doo wop."

Everyone has their own, ultimately over-simplified "history" of any style of music.

The simpler it is the wronger it is... :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 06:04 PM

Jerry ~ thanks for clearing that up, about the Robins and the Coasters. My source, obviously enough, was one that only gave me the oversimplified version that I passed along.

I'll still stand by my contention that the origins of doo-wop were very firmly rooted in the reinterpretation of known songs. For mid-20th-century African-Americans living in cities outside the South, popular jazz compositions and show-tune "standards" were the shared tradition from which amateur singers could most easily draw songs well-suited for the development of wildly creative variations, ultimately emerging as the new genre we call "doo-wop."

Pointing out the many early commerical recordings that were, indeed, newly written compositions only begs the question. As I mentioned myself, once recording and other commerical considerations came into the picture, there was a new impetus to write new material. When doo-wop was brand new, when it was all just for fun and the satisfaction of creating new sounds ~ when it was still purely "folk," in other words ~ it would not have made sense for a guy to round up four or five buddies, take the time to teach them a new song he had written, and then work out the various vocal parts. Better simply to ask "Y'all know "Stormy Weather?" and get right down to it.

My understanding of the term "Rhythm and Blues": Sometime in the past, probably during or shortly before WWII, Billboard Magazine changed the title of their listing of top hits marketed within the Negro community from "Race Records" to "Rhythm and Blues." Later, in the mid-to-late 1950s as the Baby Boom generation entered their teen years, the emerging nationwide teenage market became interested in the records being produced within that category at the time, and the new label "rock 'n' roll" began to be applied to the music. "R&B" and "R&R" were really one and the same, at least for a while. The audience consisted of black folks of all ages, and large numbers of young white folks. Also, both terms (as marketing labels) actually applied not only to rhythmic/rocking uptempo numbers, but also to many much slower ("slow-dance") selections, as long as they employed the same generally African-influenced, or "soulful," vocal and intrumental approach.

Over the years, "Rhythm & Blues" has meant different things to different people at different times. You and I, Jerry, probably have very similar understandings; we both probably apply the term to stuff we really like from the pre-rock 'n' roll and early rock 'n' roll era ~ mostly, but not necessarily, the work of black artists or at least mixed-race groups, certainly prior to or at least clearly different from overly homogenized "mainstream" pop-rock like Pat Boone's covers of Little Richard. I think we both apply the term to early "jump blues" and other rocking music from the late 40s & early 50s, like Big Joe Turner, Louis Jordan, Professor Longhair, maybe even Cab Calloway.

I think we both hate so see our beloved term "R&B" applied, as it often is today, to any pop music marketed to the black community that is NOT rap or hip-hop (or gospel either, I suppose) ~ usually, to arguably "soulful" ballads with a lot of syrupy strings, etc. Latter-day Barry White, in other words, just as you observed. However, there is some historical validity to this usage; the term began life as a euphemism for "race records," and the new usage, perhaps more common in the UK but also used here in the US, is pretty similar.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 05:10 PM

Tunesmith: One thing I've learned in this thread is that the term rhythm and blues meant something completely different in England. I thought that it was weird that when they released a Boxed set of the Who it was titled 30 Years Of Maximum R & B. That made zero sense, over here. The Who were a rock band that did some blues and early soul music (and very little R & B as it is defined over here.) And Rhythm and Blues definitely included Doo Wop over here. I could post definitions from the best respected books on the subject to support it. But, that's really unimportant... same words, different meanings. As long as we all understand what we're talking about/ John Mayall didn't have a group called The Rhythm and Blues Breakers.
In The All Music Guide, you'll find him under Rock, not blues.

You are right about what rhythm and blues was in England. It just took on a different meaning than over here, where the music originated. To me, the early Stones were much closer to an R & B, or early Soul music band, and the early stuff still sounds good.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: pdq
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 03:42 PM

For the record, both Lieber and Stoller vehicles, The Coasters and The Drifters, were great. Different personalities making them able to push different types of songs. Some clever production work produced brilliant Pop art like "Up On The Roof and "Under The Boardwalk".

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 03:22 PM

Of course, in the UK we had a different take on things. I don't think doo-woop really meant anything over here - to the general public - in the 50s/early 60s. R and B meant electric blues bands. The Stones, The Animals etc would have been called R and B back in 1963/64.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 03:17 PM

Hey, Poppa:

From American Singing Groups by Jay Warner:
   "Formed by the ace songwriting tam of Jerry Leiber and Mike
    Stoller as an extension of the Robins, the Coasters were
    lead Carl Gardner and bass Bobby Nunn (both formerly of the
    Robins), along with second tenor Leon Hughes (Founder of the
    Hollywood Four Flames in 1950 and member of the Lamplighters
    in 1953) and Billy Guy (of Bip and Bob on Alladin in 1955.)"

From Sound Of The City by Charlie Gillett:
    "... the Coasters who were contracted by Atlantic in 1956,
    in a deal that involved not only the group, but their
    songwriter/producers Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller."

From The All Music Guide To Soul:

    "The Coasters grew out of a succesful Los Angeles doo wop
    group, The Robins which had been recording since 1949 and
    working with Leiber and Stoller since 1953."

You're mostly right, in that two of the members of the Robins
were in the Coasters. It still sounds like the Coasters were formed by Leiber and Stoller, drawing on two members of the Robins, and two new members.

I'd disagree that most of the early doo wop songs were old popular songs. Gee, by the Crows was the first doo wop song to cross over, and it was an original song, as were The Great Pretender and Only You.. the earliest Platter Hits. Almost all of the Frankie Lymon and the Teenagers hits were originals, as were many of the hits by the Orioles. Even the Flamingos, whose biggest hit was I Only Have Eyes For You had many early hits of original material like Golden Teardrops, and I'll Be Home. Toss in an endless number of hits like Sh-Boom, Earth Angel, When You Dance, Little Darlin', Silhouettes, Get A Job, Book Of Love and the generalization about mostly singing well known popular songs doesn't really hold up..

Good to see you stop by, Poppa. Now, if we start getting into New Awleans rhythm and blues, that's a whole 'nother story.. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 02:38 PM

The Coasters weren't "formed" by, or for, Leiber and Stoller. They already existed under another name when L&S recruited them to become the main vehicle for their songwriting efforts. I would imagine that the group's earlier efforts would be more palatable (considered "blacker," more authentic, or whatever) to those who scorn the many successful novelty-song efforts they recorded as The Coasters.

They were originally from California ~ the name "Coasters" refers to the West Coast ~ so perhaps the purest of the purists would find something lacking even in their earlier work, inso far as it must have differred, to some extent, from the earliest doo-wop styles as developed in New York, Philadelphia, and throughout the Northeast.

Sorry, I can't remember where to look this up, or else I'd supply their original name. However, I'm so certain that I read this somewhere that I'm confident about submitting this post. (The name was probably either a breed of songbird or a brand of automobile, like so many other group names of the era.)

Moving on to something else mentioned earlier:

It may be that "new" doo-wop composition would be somehow impossible today, but I would argue that original compositions was never essential to the genre at all. Indeed, the truly "folk" origins of the genre almost demand the use of familiar "standard" songs as the basis for the a-capella vocal embellishments and improvisations that define the doo-wop sound. Four or five guys standing on the corner under a streetlight didn't need to write a new song to have fun creating countrerpoint and harmony ~ on the contrary, the best way for them to get something going would always be to agree on a number well-known to everyone ("Stormy Weather," "Blue Moon," "I Only Have Eyes for You," etc.) and then to take off on whatever flights of musical imagination anyone could come up with.

Only when recording, and hence moneymaking, became a factor was there any reason to create new material. Once you enter that arena, you face the two-edged sword of royalties: you don't want to pay, and you DO want to collect.

Of course, the prospect of making good money from an activity that you began simply for enjoyment would have been a good reason to join forces with a proven songwriting team like Lieber & Stoller.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: pdq
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 10:26 PM

My favorite colored group was:

The Four Taupes

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 09:52 AM

RnB today is stuff that sounds a bit like All Saints did a few years ago - and the mostly black roots that that came from and the offshoots of it. Sort of warbling.

When I was young, RnB or Rhythm and Blues was very definitely NOT soul, motown or do-wop - it was the driving 12-bar stuff that came out of Chicago via Elmore James and finished off lightly sanitised in the ROlling Stones (first album), Chicken Shack, Dr Feelgood, the early Fleetwood Mac, the Boogie Allstars, Santa Barbera Machine Head, the Yardbirds, John Mayall, Clapton and Page before they got poncy and fanciful, Jeff Beck, some Long John Baldry, McKenna Mendelson Mainline (heard their hit on the wireless only this weekend).

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 09:43 AM

For anyone who has an interest in vocal groups, I would highly recommend the book I've mentioned on here, American Singing Groups, by Jay Warner. The book is arranged by 10 year periods, starting from the 1940's and going through the 1980's. It is extremely comprehensive, and good reading, including discographies. It covers the whole range of well known to obscure vocal groups in all popular styles.

No bathroom should be without it.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: MARINER
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 05:24 AM

Sure, The Coasters were a vehicle for Lieber and Stoller's songs, but they were a great vehicle .For so many Lieber and Stoller songs they were the only one .All you have to do is listen to some of the cover versions .Even Elvis made a complete hames of "Little Egypt" .And I agree that the Doo-Wop style of singing came from the Black community ,but many of the songs came straight from the mainstream, white, pop music of a slightly earlier period, originnally written in a "white style".
Jerry, I have Gillett's book ,somewhere in one of my shelves ,I must dig it out and read it again. From what I remember it is a wealth of information .

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: pdq
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 02:03 PM

The Coasters were assembled by Lieber and Stoller to present their material. It was written in a Black style but its isn't really from the Black community. Doo Wop is.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 01:57 PM

Funny thing, Mariner.. As I've mentioned, Ive sung with some members of a doo wop group, and at the end of one session, I started playing and singing Searchin'.. one of the greatest of great hits in the doo wop era. Nobody in the group likes the Coasters. Some critics categorize them as rock and roll, because they didn't do many ballads. They were pretty close to a pure novelty group. I'd just call them rock and roll. I've been re-reading a book called Sound Of The City by Charlie Gillett. It is considered by many as the best book on the history of rock and roll. Gillett considers rock a billy, and rhythm and blues all part of rock and roll. He seperates rhythm and blues into the ballad groups and the novelty groups. I would put the Coasters in the same general grouping as Little Richard and Chuck Berry.... rock and roll roots. Their music certainly rocked more than the Platters or the Penguins, Orioles or Moonglows. I'll have to check my CDs of the Coasters. Right off hand, I can't think of a single ballad.

Does Young Blood count? :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: MARINER
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 01:28 PM

Jerry , No they're not from this part of the world. Both are American . I saw them on YouTube .The "All Stars are an all white group, the others an all black group.Or was that the other way round, ? Can't remember!.
By the way, in what category would you put my all time favourites The Coasters?

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 01:19 PM

Haven't heard of them, Mariner.. are they over your way?

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: MARINER
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 01:12 PM

Who are the members of "The Doo-Wop All Stars" and the "Legends of Doo-Wop .Anyone know?

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: MARINER
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 07:46 AM

Yeah The Marcels were mixed race but they came way after The Del-Vikings.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: fat B****rd
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 04:03 AM

In the UK any contemporary black music that isn't easily definable, e.g. reggae or rap, is called R'N'B*. I prefer to refer to individual acts rather than genres, but if you're talking to someone who doesn't , ahem , share your knowledge then labels save a lot of time.
*BTW I've never heard the initials R'N'B explained in it's modern form.
PS Weren't The Marcels a mixed race group ?.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 11:46 PM

You talkin 'bout me?

You TALKIN 'bout me?

You talkin 'bout ME?

[Okay somebody guess which movie I'm tryin to mimic].

I've always loved that line. I like its attitude. And attitude is what makes hip-hop rappin real.

[If you aint got it then fake it till you make it or you are made or you make something of yourself hopefully something for real].

Back to that line from that movie-which stars a favorite actor of mine-not that this has anything to do with rap hiphop or the price of beans in Boston but it might since that line is about word play and playin with words shifting their meaning spelling them as they sound and changing their look in unique but culturally prescribed ways- thats the hip hop part of rap-its a culture, see.

Hip hop don't stop. Rap is also about counter-culture except that hip hop is its own culture and bling bling is about getting paid and living high off the hog which is old school but then again rap hip hop is old enough to have more than one old school.

Hip-Hop rapping is sub-genres within a musical genre that some people still don't consider music though rappin traces its roots back back waaay back past the blues and past the talking gospel quartets where people merged the line between talk and singing the since its all about the power of the spoken chanted singing written and unwritten word. Rap goes all the way back to the Motherland where it was called Nommo.

Ase' Ase'.

Some rappers toasters mcs djs hip hoppers don't stop there but reach back all the way back past blues, and calypso and Muhammad Ali rhyming and kids playground versing back to Mother Africa to the real deal energy of the jeliman {otherwise known as griots] who let everyone know who was the greatest. I'm talkin braggadocio here. And needless to say that some rappers use/used words that are/were hip, and cool, and sometimes these words got other people much too hot and they got cold. I'm talkin word plays and riffs that aren't/weren't fun & games but are/were downright blood against blood if you know what I mean.

If you're talkin about hip hop/rap, you're talkin about a life style that encompasses the visual as well as the audio. You're talkin about clothes sportin, and many times pants sagging sometimes more than I prefer but that's neither here nor there. If you talkin about rap you talking the visual as wall as the audio word creating shifting meanings the look almost as important as the sound.

If you're talkin about hip hop/rap you're talkin about art drawing and dance dancing and it's the attitude, that is at the heart of it all. If you aint down with the attitude then don't bother to try to bring it won't mean a thing cause it aint got that-well ya know.

And that's all I'm saying about that.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: GUEST,Mike in DC
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 10:52 PM

Thanks Jerry. I've actually heard of Alicia Keys and Macy Gray. I must be hipper than I thought.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 08:33 PM

Sounds like Azizi's got herself a homework assignment ... !

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 08:27 PM

Contemporary Rhythm and Blues: The best I can categorize this music (and forgive me, because I am out of my elephant, here) is that
it is more from the Barry White, Smokey Robinson end of the old R & B spectrum. These days, most of the contemporary artists I'm aware of are women. Some examples: Alicia Keys, Indie Arie (I bought her first album) Erekah Badhu and Macy Gray. All of these artists draw upon older soul music, jazz and hip hop. They also get labeled as Urban music. I still have no clear idea what hip hop is. When I looked it up in Wikepdeia, my only response was. Yeah, like Wikepedia would really know.. they define it solely (not soully) as rap music. I may not know for sure what hip hop is, but it's much more than rap. In Michael Jackson's last attempts to reinvent himself and get some street creds, he used some of the best known hip hop arrangers. Whitney Houston went in the same direction. Equally unsuccessfully. One of the current groups I've enjoyed at the Black Eyed Peas. I think they're probably considered hip hop.
With the exception of Black Eyed Peas, most of the rest of this stuff is very smooth.

Nary a Wilson Pickett to be found.

I'd appreciate anyone correcting these statements. I'm on unfamiliar turf here..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 07:59 PM

Hey, pdq... I think the question was, were the Del Vikings the first mixed-race vocal group. Racial barriers broke down much earlier in music (especially in jazz) than in the rest of society..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: pdq
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 07:47 PM

In the late 1920s, Hoagy Carmichael and Eddie Lang were joined by guitar genuis Lonnie Johnson and cornet player "King" Oliver to form the group "Blind Willie Dunn's Gin Bottle Four". The latter two were Black. The recording I have by them is 1929.

In the late 1930s, Benny Goodman started a series of "small combos" which had from four to seven members. Gene Krupa (also Jewish) was featured along with piano player Teddy Wilson and vibes man Lionel Hampton, the latter two Black. Some of their best work included pioneer electric guitar player Charlie Christian, also Black.

Mixed groups but not Doo Wop.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 07:11 PM

Are we talking irony, or what, Mariner? The first inter-racial vocal group to make it were named.................

drum roll................................

The Mariners!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They were regulars on the Arthur Godfrey show and had several hit records, the most popular of them I See The Moon. They were more barber shop than doo wop, but I guess everything comes full circle, as black barber shops are at the heart of the black community.

I too loved the Del Vikings. One of very favorite rhythm and blues albums is a collection of songs that they did as an audition. Their versions of Sunday Kind Of Love and White Cliffs Of Dover, done a capella have never been equaled (in my mind..)

Jerry

I'll get back to what contemporary rhythm and blues is, as best I know, because I don't listen to it with any regularity.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: MARINER
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 05:55 PM

Just watched The Capris on YouTube. Not bad at all when you consider all the years that have passed since they first sang it.Nice bit of falsetto .
I think the first time i became aware of Doo-Wop was when i used to listen to Radio Luxembourg's Jamboree on Staurday nights, way back in the 50s . For some reason I always associate The Del-Vikings "Whispering Bells" with that show, probably heard it first there .The Del-Vikings were said to be the first multi racial vocal group to chart .I seem to remember that they were all Air Force men ,which might explain how they first got together.(both races were in the forces ).Whereas I'm led to believe out on civvy street inter racial mixing was not so common in the 50s .
Were they the first multi racial vocal group to make it?.Off hand i can't think of any others before them.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 05:04 PM

Watch out, Azizi - he's got that twinkle in his eye ... !

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: fat B****rd
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 04:04 PM

Good evening, Jerry and thankyou. Azizi, thank YOU for that. A sentimental old devil like me do like a bit of romance.
PS Wasn't Jerry Wexler credited with inventing the term Rhythm & Blues ?

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 03:57 PM

The real transcription for "Why Do Fools Fall In Love":
"ooh wah/ooh wah/ooh wah-ah/ooh wah/way do fools fall in love"

Sorry about those my mistakes.


****

fat B****rd -Here's the YouTube video of
There's A Moon Out Tonight - The Capris

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKjsuc7Pdhc

Filmed Live May 11 and 12, 1999 at the Benedum Center for the Performing Arts in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: GUEST,Mike in DC
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 03:55 PM

"Talk about words becoming meaningless. Now, "rhythm and blues" is a totally different animal. Definitely short on rhythm."

Could you elaborate on that, Jerry? A few years back, I asked a young co-worker what kinds of music she liked. When she mentioned rhythm and blues, I threw out a few names, none of which she recognized. So apparently there is this new genre, or at least one completely divorced from its roots. Is it like rap? hip-hop?
Clueless in DC

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 03:53 PM

Hey, fat: The Capri's did a new album in the 80's with a new song, "There's A Moon Out Again" which I like even better than "There's A Moon Out Tonight," which is one of my favorite R & B ballads.

When my wife and I were married 9 years ago, we considered long and hard what the first record we wanted to be played at the reception. It was neck and neck between To The Aisle and My Prayer. We opted for To The Aisle (also by the 5 Satins.)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: fat B****rd
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 03:34 PM

Great thread Jerry. One of my personal favourites is The Capri's "There's A Moon Out Tonight".

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 10:30 AM

I smile when I read the origin of "doo Wop." I've been re-reading a wonderful book, They All Sang On The Corner, by Philip Groia that talks in great depth about the street corner groups in New York City from 1954 into the 60's. (I note that the subtitle is "A Second Look At New York City's Rhythm And Blues Groups'" with no mention of the word doo wop. There is almost no recognition that many of the groups came out of the black churches, and that the style of singing is very familiar in black gospel. The articles and books talk about the sudden appearance of the bass lead. Apparently they never heard groups like The Harmonizing Four and The Fairfield Four which were enormously popular in the black community and predate rhythm and blues by tgwenty years. The same with falsetto singing. Falsetto singing was fairly common in black gospel, long before "doo wop."
Even the nonsense syllables predate doo wop, although they weren't as humorous or imaginative. Listen to many of the early black gospel groups and you'll hear the harmonies taking the place of instruments in groups that sang a capella. Groups like the Five Blind Boys Of Mississippi recorded songs that, with a change in lyrics would sound like a recording by the Penguins or Orioles.

If you want to hear where rhythm and blues groups came from, listen to black gospel, jump tunes from 40's groups like Louis Jordan and the black comedy routines with music of the black vaudeville era.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 09:34 AM

Okay. Thanks Jerry.

Btw, I should have transcribed that line in "Why Do Fools Fall In Love" as "do wah/do wah/do-ooh wah-ah/do wah."

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 08:55 AM

Frankie Lymon wasn't singing in falsetto, I don't believe. He, and Little Anthony set the pattern for schoolboy, high tenor leads.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 08:33 AM

I see that meself also included {think Smokey Robinson} in parenthesis.

So maybe that makes me a copy cat. {Mudcatter, that is}

I'll admit it. I'm not a big fan of falsetto singing . But, hey, different strokes for different folks.

Here's one example of falsetto singing I like:

Frankie Lymon & The Teenagers - Why Do Fools Fall In Love

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q96ylFiQK_I

But then, again. I'm not sure that's really falsetto singing since Frankie Lymon was only 13 years old when he and the rest of the group recorded that hit song. Maybe his voice hadn't changed yet. Maybe he wasn't purposely singing in a higher register {??}.

But-in any event-"Why Do Fools Fall In Love" is a surely an example of R&B Doo Wop music as the refrain line is "do wah do wah do-ooh wah do wah."

****

Correction:

The correct words for the refrain in that Kermit the Frog song is "doo wop doo wop hop, don't stop".

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 07:51 AM

Wikipedia's entry on falsetto indicates that the "Use of falsetto voice in western music is very old. Its origins are difficult to trace because of ambiguities in terminology. In a book by GB Mancini, called Penseri e riflessioni written in 1774, falsetto is equated with 'voce di testa' (translated as 'head voice'). Possibly when 13th century writers distinguished between chest, throat and head registers (pectoris, guttoris, capitis) they meant capitis to refer to what would be later called falsetto."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsetto#History

-snip-

Also, male falsetto singing is often given as a characteristic of traditional African singing.

See for example this excerpt from http://www.history.org/foundation/journal/winter02-03/music.cfm :

"Historians know much about African music because African songs, dances, and instruments fascinated European traders and explorers. During the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, they recorded their observations in letters, diaries, and books...

To Western ears, African singing was alien. One listener called it "a rude noyse." Singers performed intensely, and liberally employed falsetto, shouts, groans, and deep rumblings. The nasal, loud, and shrill qualities of African singers deeply impressed Europeans. So did their tendency, unlike Westerners', to use spontaneity, improvisation, and response in their performances."

-snip-

With regard to that excerpt, all African music does not sound 'nasal, loud and shrill". Different African ethnic groups * have their own sound preferences. It seems to me that we {African Americans} prefer deep, gritty voices though sometimes we also like the males singing falsetto {think R&B singer Smokey Robinson}. Btw, that gritty, hoarse voice also seems to be a feature in alot of Jamaican music and perhaps the music of other Caribbean peoples. But then again, quite a few African Americans have Caribbean roots, and African American and Afro-Caribbean people can trace at least part of their ancestry to Africa, so we're back where we started from.


* I believe that the term 'ethnic group' is preferable to the term 'tribe'. Imo, the term "tribe' has vestiges of patronizing, if unconscious racism. Think about it- when have you last heard European ethnic groups referred to as tribes? Why is 'tribes' only used to refer to people of color such as Africans and Indians?

Hmmm.


I'm sorry for the mini-rant, and so early in the morning too.
I think I'll go listen to some music, like this:

Sesame Street - Doo Wop Doo Wop Hop!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62rrA7f7ZHU

-snip-

I'm aware that this isn't the kind of Doo Wop that is the focus of this thread. But this uptempo song sung by the Sesame Street character "Kermit the Frog" has a call & response structure and includes the words "doo wop doo wop don't stop".
So does that make it doo-wop? Hey, you tell me.

Besides, this song was the first YouTube video I found using the key words "doo wop". And it helped me get through to the other side of the serious mood I was in.

Thank you, Kermit the Frog.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 07 Apr 07 - 12:51 AM

One of the more striking features of doo-wop is its use of falsetto. That carried on into the Beach Boys (along with the harmonies), and into Motown (think Smokey Robinson), and has become established as an "option" in mainstream pop. Before doo-wop came along, falsetto seemed to be used only in "marginal" music such as Delta blues and Native chant; of course, doo-wop started out marginal.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 10:33 PM

There's a lot of lip sync going on in hip hop, because everyone has to be a dancer, and it's hard to sing when you're huffing and puffing, AWG..

The thing that excited me in the early 50's, is much the same thing that excited me when I started hearing folk music more regularly in the early 60's. I remember when Frankie Lane first started having hit records. They had a cover story about him in the Sunday section of the Milwaukee Journal and the thing that they marveled at was that "He'd never taken voice lessons!!!!!!!!!" At the time, that was considered almost shocking. There was a revolution that took place in music in the early fifties. Up until then, all the most popular singers had come out of the big bands in the forties. When Don Howard recorded Oh Happy Day in a record-your-own-voice booth with just his guitar (and a lousy singing voice) and had a smash hit with it, despite every effort to suppress it, the doors were opened.
Out of that came rhythm and blues, rockabilly and rock and roll. And folk music, as a viable popular music. I had a friend of mine who recorded a couple of songs that he wrote in a small, local studio and traveled around the area convincing dj's to play it by giving them strawberries that were raised on his father's farm. For a while, "folk" took over the music industry and anyone could walk into a small store-front studio, like Sun Records, and make a hit record. The play lists on radio stations were more catholic than they'd ever been, or will likely ever be again. I found that time period very exciting, for the rhythm and blues, rockabilly, rock and roll and folk music that I was suddenly hearing. These days, Corporations decide what you hear.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: AWG
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 10:17 PM

Oh I forgot myself,with all the talk about lip-synch and such in this forum lately.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 10:14 PM

Everybody would, AWG. The audience may be there for nostalgia, and there's always a woman in a poodle skirt and saddle shoes, but they are extremely serious about the music..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: AWG
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 10:00 PM

What if they just 'lip-sync'. Who would know ????

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 09:46 PM

Hey, Azizi:

The Chiffons, who we heard at the doo wop concert this year was a trio of women. There were also the Shirelles, The Bobbettes, the Ronnettes, The Shangrilas The Dixie Cups, etc... The Chiffons big hits were One Fine Day and He's So fine.

The thing that really pleased me, hearing the old groups was that many of them have brought their children, and grand children into the group. The Chiffons, for example were one of the original group, and two of her daughters. Fred Satin's group, The Satins, included his grandson on sax.

It's nice to see the music being carried on in the family.

One major difference between doo wop and other forms of music is that
no doo wop can ever be written again. It's in a time capsule (kinda like folk music :-)) Even more than that, if you want to sing Blue Moon, you have to sing it exactly like the Marcels, or you'd be booed off the stage. I've talked with my friend Ken from the Sentinels about this. I asked him why people can't continue to write songs in the style of doo wop... why it has to be frozen in time. Unfortunately, doo wop is music to wash your Mustang by. It is nostalgia, and therefore cannot be changed.

Of course, there are ways around that. I've written a couple of gospel songs in classic doo wop style. I tell Ken that he could sing them and say that he learned them from a very rare pressing of an orange 45 r.p.m. by the Penguins. As long as it's already been done, it's alright to sing it, as long as you sing it EXACTLY like the original recording.

And you thought folkies were purists!!!!!!:-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 09:28 PM

See these two online articles about where the name "Doo-Wop" comes from and what was the first Doo Wop record:

"WHERE'D WE GET THE NAME DOO-WOP?

We know that thanks to deejay Alan Freed, the old blues term "rock and roll" became the official euphemism for marketing R&B to white kids in late 1954. We know that the term rockabilly, or rock-a-billy, a hybrid of rock and hillbilly, was coined by the music industry in 1956. But where did the term doo-wop come from, and how early was it used?

As far as we can tell (thanks to doo-wop fan Tim Lucy), the nonsense syllables "doo-wop" first appeared on wax in 1954 on a song called "Never" by a Los Angeles group called Carlyle Dundee & The Dundees (Space 201). The background group sings "doo-wop" in the the song's chorus. Members of The Dundees later became The Calvanes.

The first hit record showcasing "doo-wop" came in 1955 with The Turbans' Top 40 recording of "When You Dance" (Herald 458). The group chanted "doo-wop" several times, very plainly."

http://www.electricearl.com/dws/origin.html
The Doo Wop Society of Southern California-Origin of the name "Doo Wop"

-snip-

"The term "doo-wop" was taken from the ad-lib syllables sung in harmony in doo-wop songs. Two songs in particular may lay claim to being the "first" to contain the syllables "doo wop" in the refrain: the 1955 hit, "When You Dance" by The Turbans, in which the chant "doo wop" can be plainly heard; and the 1956 classic "In the Still of the Night (I Remember)" by The Five Satins, with the plaintive "doo wop, doo wah" refrain in the bridge.

It has been erroneously reported that the phrase was coined by radio disc jockey Gus Gossert in the late 1950s. However, Gossert himself has said that "doo-wop(p) was already being used [before me] to categorize the music in California."[1]. It became the fashion in the 1990s to keep expanding the definition backward to take in Rhythm & Blues groups from the mid-1950s and then further back to include groups from the early 1950s and even the 1940s. There is no consensus as to what constitutes a doo-wop song and many aficionados of R&B music dislike the term intensely, preferring to use the term "group vocal harmony" instead."...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doo-wop

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 09:10 PM

..."Fred Parris lives in New Haven.. ten miles from here. I've met him on a couple of occasions"...

I'm glad that I found that particular video for this thread. Call it synchronicity-or something like that.

Btw, Jerry [or anyone else], have you ever heard of any women only doo wop groups?

I can't think of any.

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 09:06 PM

By the way, Fred Parris lives in New Haven.. ten miles from here. I've met him on a couple of occasions, most recently at a wonderful Doo Wop concert that had several classic groups including the Satins (no confusion on numers here.. Fred Parris can't use the term The Five Satins, for legal reasons) The Jive Five (there were six of them...) The Chiffons and several other lesser-known groups, including my friends, The Sentinels.

New Haven was a hotbed of doo wop groups, and I have a friend who was present when In The Still Of The Night was recorded, and also sang with the Nutmegs (a Connecticut group) and the Flamingos.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 09:03 PM

Hey, Q: In the 50's, the term doo wop hadn't even been invented (I don't think.) I don't know when someone coined the term, but in the heyday of The Penguins, The Orioles, The Moonglows, The Spaniels and all the other groups, they were all called rhythm and blues groups, as was Little Richard, Fats Domino and Ivory Joe Turner. It was only later (I think that a New York City dj coined the term "Doo wop") when the groups were identified as their own type of music.

Maybe someone can track down who it was that first coined the term "doo wop." All I know is that when I listened to black radio stations in the 50's, it was all called Rhtyhm and Blues.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Music Formerly Known As Rhythm & Blues
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Apr 07 - 08:44 PM

Here's YouTube video that is a classic example of Doo Wop:

Five Satins - In the Still of the Night

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBT3oDMCWpI

Added December 17, 2006 ;From azitis
"Fred Parris, leader vocal of the group wrote this song in 1955 at the basement of a local church"

-snip-

Btw, the comments written by YouTube viewers of this video make for some interesting reading.