Origins: 'SINNER MAN 3'?

Subject: Origins: 'SINNER MAN 3'?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 12:35 PM

What's the source of "Sinner Man 3" in DT, posted by JY long ago?

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SINNER MAN 3 (DT Lyrics)

SINNER MAN Sittin' on the gates of Hell
SINNER MAN sittin' on the gates of Hell
SINNER MAN sittin' on the gates of Hell,
Gates broke down an' in he fell
Ain't no room to hide down there.

cho: Hell am deep an' Hell am wide
Hell am deep an' Hell am wide
Ain't no bottom an' there ain't no side
Ain't no room to hide down there.)

Oh, Pharoah's daughter pickin' roses
Pharoah's daughter pickin' roses
Pharoah's daughter pickin' roses
--stubbed her toe and fell on Moses
Ain't no room to hide down there.

@religion @spiritual
filename[ SINERMN3
JY

Subject: RE: Origins: 'SINNER MAN 3'?
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 01:20 PM

Lighter, the DT {Digital Tradition} indicates that this is a spiritual.

If you are asking who composed this particular spiritual, we'll never know. But I for one say thank you.

If you are asking who collected this spiritual and who published it, thus preserving it for "regular people" and for great artists like Nina Simone to sing, I don't know that either.

But I did find a couple of previous Mudcat threads on this song

thread.cfm?threadid=38494#541448
"Lyr Req: oh sinner man"

and

Lyr/Chords Req: Sinnerman
thread.cfm?threadid=17622#170625

You may want to check out the first thread that I referred to.
I just posted a link on it to a YouTube video clip {music only} of Bina Simone singing "Sinnerman". I also put lyrics to that song that I found online in that same post.

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: Origins: 'SINNER MAN 3'?
From: Lighter
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 05:35 PM

Thank you, Azizi. What I mean is, where did JY find it ?

Subject: RE: Origins: 'SINNER MAN 3'?
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 05:58 PM

Yes, after I hit the submit button, it occurred to me that that was what you meant.

Perhaps someone will have an answer for you.

I hope so.

**

As to "Bina Simone", she might be Nina's sister. But I meant to write "Nina Simone".

And my earlier "thank you" was to whoever composed this song.

Subject: Lyr. Add: No Hiding-Place Down There.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 10:33 PM

No composer, typical of what I call mix and match religious songs, in this case the sinner group. The verses of Sinner Man 3 all appear in Odum and Johnson, 1925.

The chorus in Sinner Man 3 is verse 1 in this song, minus the 'no room to hide' line.

No Title
O hell is deep and hell is wide, (3x)
O hell ain't got no bottom or side.

Well, before I lay in hell all day, hell all day, (3x)
I goin' to sing an' pray myself away, self away.

O sinner, don't you let this harves' pass, harves' pass, (3x)
Do you die an' go to Hell at las', hell at las'.

Collected by Odum and Johnson, in 1925, "The Negro and His Songs," p. 49, p. 72.

All of the verses appear in the following song, No. 74, Religious Songs, Odum and Johnson, 1925, pp. 121-122.
Verse 3 of Sinner Man 3 appears as verse 2 in "No Hiding-place," and verse 1 of Sinner Man 3 appears as verse 4. Verse 2 of S M 3 is almost the same as verse 6. Also in Odum and Johnson, from 1918 MS, VA.

NO HIDING-PLACE DOWN THERE
(Odum and Johnson, 1925)

1.
Went down to the rocks to hide my face, (3x)
The rocks cried out no hiding-place,
No hiding-place down here.
2.
Pharaoh's daughter lookin' for roses, (3x)
Stumped her toe and fell over Moses,
No hiding-place down there.
3.
Sister Mary wears a golden chain, (3x)
And every link's in Jesus name,
No hiding-place down there.
4.
Sinnaman sitting on the gates of hell, (3x)
The gates flew open and in he fell,
No hiding-place down there.
5.
Sinnaman row your boat one side, (3x)
Cause you can't get to heaven on the ebbing tide,
No hiding-place down there.
6.
Cause hell is deep and hell is wide, (3x)
You can't touch the bottom and you can't touch the side,
No hiding-place down there.

Extracts from notes:
Last stanza occurs in Murphy, 1904, p. 35. Cf. also Perrow 1913, Johnson 1925,...
Verse 3 from "Sister Mary" group.
Also sung by Negroes around Durham, SC. Also known in Alabama.

I haven't checked Perrow yet, but I doubt that much could be added.

Subject: RE: Origins: 'SINNER MAN 3'?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Apr 07 - 10:55 PM

Verse 1 of Sinner Man 3 in another form:
Dere Is No Hidin' Place Down Yhar
1.
O-oo sinner man, sittin' on de gates ub yhell,-
Dere is no hidin' place down yhar,-
O-oo sinner man, sittin' on de gates ub yhell,-
Dere is no hidin' place down yhar,
O-oo sinner man sittin' on de gates ub yhell,-
De gates floo open, en de sinner man fell,
Dere is no hidin' place down yhar.

The song has eight verses and a chorus, but only verse 1 matches a verse in Sinner Man 3.
Mary Walker Finley Speers, "Negro Songs and Folk-Lore," p. 436, JAFL, vol. 23, no. 90, 1910. Found in Virginia, Washington, D. C., and Maryland (See my post in thread 97895 for additional note).

Subject: RE: Origins: 'SINNER MAN 3'?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Apr 07 - 02:25 PM

Lyr. Add: NO HIDIN'-PLACE
Kentucky Negroes, 1912
1.
Dahuh's no hidin'-place daown dah-uh!
Uh went tuh de rock tuh hide muh face,
De rock said, "Back, no hidin'-place!"
Dah-uh no hidin'-place daown dah-uh!
2.
De sinnuh man gamble, en' he fell; (3x)
He wanted tuh go tuh Heb'n, but he fell tuh hell.
3.
De sinnuh man stood at de gates u' hell; (3x)
De gates flew op'n, en in he fell!

No. 46, no score; E. C. Perrow, "Songs and Rhymes From the South," parts III and IV, Jour. American Folklore, vol. 26 pp. 123-173, 1913.