Who forgets their own songs?

Subject: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 12:52 PM

I've been going through boxes and clearing shelves while I move my office and keep finding old songs that I've written & forgotten.
Some of them, I have to stare at for a long time before I remember the tunes. Anyone else have this problem or am I really losing it?
What do you do with your own songs?

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: MMario
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 12:58 PM

yup.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:04 PM

I have forgotten so many songs, even the few I have made up seem to dissappear. But now I have a stranger phenomenon; I suddenly plat tunes on the Mandola and cannot remember what they are.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:04 PM

I only forget the words- I steal the tunes from others, so I usually remember them.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:04 PM

me

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:15 PM

....and me!

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:19 PM

Thanks be to God! More of you do the same! I know I'm over fifty because I can see my own eyebrows but I really thought I was losing my ...... uh....hmmm!..... what was the question again?

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:30 PM

It's not just you... and you don't have to be over 50 either!!

I remember tunes because like beardedbruce above, I steal them from older songs, but it's SOOO annoying to forget a song you wrote yourself.

LTS

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:30 PM

I know several songwriters who have trouble with their own songs because they remember all the changes and versions they tried....not the same as forgetting you wrote it, but it is interesting to watch them try to do the same line 3 times.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: jeffp
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:43 PM

I forget them too. Thank God I store copies in multiple locations so I have a prayer of finding one.

Bill - I heard a pair of songwriters give that explanation. It makes so much sense I'm surprised I didn't think of it myself.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:45 PM

I write them and promptly forget the words...If I want to sing them I have to learn them which is not so easy these days.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: skipy
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:51 PM

I forgot to write any, so I'm o/k.
Skipy

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 01:57 PM

My theory is that one uses a different part of the brain or a different process in remembering songs written by others versus those written by oneself.

I am not a 'natural born' songwriter, as so many other people recount. A song has "never written itself" for me, even though the theme or some phrases expose themselves to me from the guitar. When I write a song I live with it for days, even weeks. I wake up to it, I dream about it, I go to sleep to it.

And then, in the course of time I forget it or as close as doesn't make much difference.

Other people's songs are easy to learn and remember. A song I learned 40 years ago will reveal itself to me line by line as I sing.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 02:02 PM

I do. Forget, that is.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 02:03 PM

I forget the damn things while I'm singing them on stage!

Fortunately, most of my audiences know the stuff better than I do, so they can holler out the lost lines.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 02:03 PM

Ian Campbell once told me that one night at The Jug of Punch, Ewan MacColl totally forgot Shoals of Herring beyond the first verse.

Gone, gone into the void........

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 02:06 PM

Ebbie: "one uses a different part of the brain" .. I have to wait for that to happen before I can write. I always call it a "Brain switch". During the writing process, words flow with ease, as do the tears. By the end of a good piece, I am an emotional wreck and in some cases have stopped writing, just to give myself a break.
Therapists will often suggest that you write about your emotions with your non dominant hand in order to trigger this Brain Switch.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 02:16 PM

Me three.

Barry

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Songster Bob
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 02:21 PM

I think I'm the main songwriter Bill D is talking about, and I assume it's as interesting on the outside as it is on the inside, as I try to remember why I changed the rhyme word and, since I did, what the @#$!! is the new one? And how do I get the extra three syllables out of the rhythm to make the new line work?

And when I look up the "documented" copy, I find I made changes, often improvements, while singing, but neglected to put 'em in the printed version. An example came up in Church two Sundays ago -- I was singing "Barabbas Laughed," and had the line

"Shameful, grievous death his fate" -- but I'd been singing it with an internal rhyme:
"A Shameful, painful death his fate" but had never written down the improvement.

I do this all the time, make changes that I never document, so when I'm looking it up years later, I forget the improved version, or, as Bill points out, get half-way through the improved one and revert to the clunky lyric I once wrote. This is less true of tunes, though. My tunes are often enough borrowed from tradition or Stephen Foster, so they don't change much. But they have, now and then.

But, yes, I also clean forgot that I wrote a given song, as I troll through my folder of lyrics. And then there are the unfinished ones (though most songwriters admit that no song is finished, some just escape) where I not only can't recall what tune (if any) I had settled on, but dang! I thought I had gotten past the bridge -- now how'm I gonna finish it? What was I thinking?

Bob Clayton

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Vixen
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 02:33 PM

oh yeah...happens to both Reynaud and me.

One reason it happens is that we perform traditional material almost exclusively, so that's the repertoire we spend most of our time building/rehearsing/practicing/keeping fresh. Our originals tend to languish until we book a gig where we're to perform them, so that's when we pull 'em out, dust 'em off, and re-learn 'em.

V

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 02:34 PM

Try moving your office, Bob! Who knows what you'll find?

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 02:36 PM

Do more serious songs sink down deeper?

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 02:50 PM

I generally remember the ones that are memorable and forget the ones that are forgettable.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 03:24 PM

All of mine are eminently forgettable.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 03:26 PM

Bee-dubya-ell: Took the words right out of my mouth.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Mrs Scarecrow
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 03:37 PM

Yes all the time,
I also think for songwriters its not just the memories of all the revisions its also the constant analysis of each line as you sing it questioning whether that is after all the best way of putting it.
Ann

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 03:55 PM

And where are the words?
The bloody, bloody words,
Gone Pfft! like yesterday's bubble;
I guess that I could look
And find them in my book,
But to tell the truth it's too much bloody trouble.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 04:09 PM

"I never remember a tune, but I always forget the words"

      me, I think

(yes, it's a parody of "I never remember a face, but I always forget a name"

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 04:37 PM

sometimes when Im singing them

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 04:54 PM

Geezizhaychkeerist, Jim Lad...... I am trying to like you here, but there you go again... I had you on the list as just a cranky, old man. I was ready to take you off the friggin' list, and ..... BAMMMM ...... you prove you are an old man that can't remember shit!!

Mick

PS ..... I forget the damn things too, but keep that between us cranky old shits.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 04:59 PM

It's hell to start the intro, get the rhythm in place, do some neat shit on guitar to set the mood and lead into the song and then give a blank stare to the audience and ask, "Does anyone here remember the first line?"

Not that that's ever happened to me . . . .

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 05:10 PM

Mick who?

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 05:12 PM

Oh, wait a minute. I have you in my grudges. I never forget them.
You're still on probation.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 05:13 PM

I don't do a lot of writing, but I still forget some of my own lyrics.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 05:20 PM

LOL.

I would call this my favorite Irish joke, but being raised by all immigrants, I know it isn't a joke, but absolutely true:

Ever heard of Irish Alzheimers?

We forget everything but the grudges

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 05:21 PM

My wife reminds me of that one, frequently.
She has to.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 06:14 PM

I've watched Martin Carthy dry up on stage in the middle of a song... he had to finish the story in precis and without accompaniament.

I read somewhere, years ago, can't remember where... that the brain remembers stuff when it's in the same condition as when it first learned it. Hence, there are some tunes and songs I can only remember when on the receiving end of 4 pints of beer. As I no longer drink that much in one session, I can't remember a lot of things! If you learn something and then recreate the conditions in which you learned them, you should be able to recall them.

Explains a lot about pub singers.

LTS

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 06:22 PM

I was never a singer/songwriter so I forget most of what I wrote except I'm lucky enough to have most of them on record so I can smile or cringe when I listen to them.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 06:34 PM

My uncle, Malcolm MacLean, was a prolific songwriter his whole life and kept most of them in large notebooks. Other than the ones he sold, or gave away without keeping copies, he basically kept them to himself.
That got me thinking about this a few weeks ago and I'm more than a little surprised at how many I've written and even performed then discarded.
Kind of funny to be finding them again.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 07:11 PM

Yeah! Me too. In fact, generally I only forget the ones I wrote, perhaps because it takes more time and effort to learn other peoples'.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Grab
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 08:04 PM

A few weeks back, we went to see Joan Armatrading. (Fantastic, incidentally, if you've not seen her - very good singer and guitarist, and a brilliant natural entertainer.) Anyway, come the encore, she asked what we wanted to hear. People shouted out various stuff, and then someone down the front mentioned some song (which I didn't hear, being at the back). JA looks down and says "Did I write that?" The woman at the front says "Yes, it was on album such-and-such". JA thinks for a bit, then laughs and says "No, she's right, she's right!"

For me, I generally find that tunes stick around once I've learnt them, although words might flee my mind like Dracula's bats through a window. :-) But *writing* and *learning* are two very different things. Once I've got it sorted, I use my MP3 recorder to make an "official" version that I'll then stick to for learning it.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 08:41 PM

Some of the greats have forgotten the lyrics to their own songs. I saw Phil Ochs do this on stage a couple of times - fortunately, the audience knew his songs better than he did, and was happy to help him out.

Rosalie Sorrels tells the story of Utah Phillips asking her who had written a song she had just performed - of course, you all know the punchline.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 08:52 PM

I have a theory on this! I just sang a house concert in Seattle, and for the occasion, I wrote a song ... a very rare event. But my two granddaughters wanted to sing it with me.

I had the DAMNDEST time memorizing the verses.

And I thinks it's because, in my tiny little mind, I was still writing and re-writing it! I dunno? Bob

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: iancarterb
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 09:24 PM

I find that the longer it takes to write one, the longer it takes to remember it. This isn't even different with age. The big problem seems to me that it isn't a folk song, and it's the most tecent thing into the bin. We didn't learn it from our parents for sure, which is analagous to having it in our DNA. We KNEW it, quite different from LEARNING it.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 10:01 PM

LIke everyone else, I do it. If I'm lucky, I've taped the song (and can find it.) At least then I can learn it.

It IS a little embarassing to say, "Here's a song I learned from me."

Jerry

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Beer
Date: 12 Apr 07 - 10:23 PM

I've written about 60 songs but only remember about 3 or 4 as to how the melody goes. I can't write all those fancy things so it has to be remembered in my head. I guess I should have learned how to write and read music. Oh well, I look them over every once in a while and read them as if they were a poem of sorts.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 07:28 AM

If you learn a song from someone else then you have a sort of mental recording of it. You don't have that if you've written it yourself. I always have much more trouble remembering my own lyrics.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 08:18 AM

Jim,

Long before I ever thought of writing a song, I saw Roger Miller forget the words to his current hit on the TV stage. Of course, with Roger it could have been the barbiturates. However, I have held that memory and realized I can forget even things learned by rote.

My most embarassing moment was singing at a festival and a crowd member called out a song title of a song I wrote. I had not performed it in years and had to admit that I couldn't get through the song so I couldn't start it.

It does amaze me still, that I am still singing some songs that I have sung for thirty years. You'd think I would have grown tired of them by now!

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Nick
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 09:09 AM

I saw Judy Collins in the late 1960's at the Albert Hall and she completely lost the words and had to get the drummer to remind her before going on.

Not one of his own songs but Dick Gaughan responded to a request when I last saw him to sing Ewan MacColl's 'Fathers Song' and left out a verse - though he did say when I asked him that he hadn't sang it for a long time. Being as I thought it kind of him to bother to do it I didn't point it out to him :)

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Betsy
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 10:08 AM

Definitely me.The black belt caterpillar wrestler might hold the key when he / she says, "If you learn a song from someone else then you have a sort of mental recording of it".
I understand this premis, as opposed to writing a song, which in my case goes through a lot of changes before it's "complete". Even when you think its complete ,there is the odd bit of tinkering with the words as it develops.
I wonder if all the tinkering and changes brings on the forgetfulness.
It is embarrassing when the obvious deduction by the listener is - that you must be pissed - which is a little unfair at least sometimes !.
I know someone who (in theory) does not forget words to his own songs,when he does,he just gives an artistic grunt and groan , belts out the corresponding line from another verse and doesn't bat an eyelid at the end of a song.
Anyhow, who's giving out prizes for noticing someone sang the wrong words / line / verse , surely none of us ?.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 10:53 AM

I've screwed up my own songs, on stage, more times than I care to remember. Thanks yous! I won't bother getting tested now.
Good Morning All,
From the drizzly Highlands.
Jim

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Joybell
Date: 13 Apr 07 - 06:18 PM

I only forget my own work. Songs, dialogue, stories. I almost never forget other songs.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 01:22 AM

Oddly eonough, I tend not to revise my songs much... which might explain a few things... so the version you hear me sing is usually the version I wrote first.

I have been known to start writing a song at the beginning of the morning session and sing it at the end.. twice now that's happened, they're both songs I've been asked to repeat or share with other singers and they're the ones I have least trouble in remembering.

Perhaps that's the key. By overworking a lyric, we take out the spontenaety, the very thing that made it worth singing about in the first place. It's the bits that we remember that are worth remembering. If you have trouble recalling the revision, then maybe it's because the revision isn't the right one yet. I can remember odd lines I wrote 20 years ago that have not yet made it into a song, because I can't find a way of working them in. Still they persist in my memory banks, just waiting for the right place to bust out and join in.

LTS

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: alanabit
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 03:44 AM

I sometimes forget the words. Sometimes another band member reminds me. The other trick, as someone mentioned above, is to slip in a line from another verse. The third way is to just improvise something. The improvised lines are usually just banal or cliched. However, most audiences are so used to lines like that, they don't really stick out!
The more striking a line is, the easier it is to remember. I think the better a song lyric is, the easier it is to learn. Story songs are easier to remember, because you have the narrative thrust to drive the song forward.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 06:08 AM

Oh do I ever... both find songs I forgot in drawers, on napkins... or worse, new and topical songs... standing there on the stage of the Theater for the New City... looking out at the audience, calm as could be... open me gob and... how the hell does that song I wrote last week start? Awful feeling, or like Phil Oches in Vancouver, in the middle of one of my old favs, I wrote a long time ago and sing often, but not often enough, comes a hole in the song...

ah well, imperfection...

lorcan

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 10:57 AM

Hello,

I think Alanabit has a good idea there. If I forget the words I make some up to fill the gap. Most of the time the audience don't notice unless things are greatly awry...then it just adds to the fun! :0)

Songs are living things and they alter from the day you start to learn them or they are born. I think Liz is right....if you keep on refining your words then your subconscious gets confused! Something to do with neural pathways I expect!
   
Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 12:48 PM

I never forget lyrics. Yeah, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Mike

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 01:03 PM

Yeah Mike, and I'm a size Zero!

LTS

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 01:54 PM

I am about to right now..going to a Parks Department workshop on local songs...I have the words if I need them but I think I have onen megatune that all my songs want to go into..mg

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 02:06 PM

Who started this thread, anyway?

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 03:11 PM

What was your name again???

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 03:13 PM

You, I remember!

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Sugwash
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 03:21 PM

I forget three types of song:

Those I've just learnt (including one's I've written)

Those I've been singing for years (I put it down to my mind wandering)

Those songs without a strong narrative element.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 03:22 PM

Are you sure that's all you forget?

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 03:25 PM

Do you guys need a ruler?

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 06:42 PM

The English tried that. Didn't work!

I liken singing a song to driving a car. If I really had to think about it, I'd forget lines all over the place. My mind is usually on the next set or intro, how many customers are actually drinking?, can I get away with singing something nice?, did I already sing The Wild Rover set and if so, how many times, and so-on.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Sugwash
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 07:10 PM

There was something else...I forget what it was.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Bert
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 10:47 PM

...but it's SOOO annoying to forget a song you wrote yourself...

Ah Squeaks, but sometimes it's a blessing.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: goodbar
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 11:16 PM

i don't even bother to memorize most of my songs.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Celtaddict
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 12:28 AM

I think there is definitely something to the 'mental recording' idea; I have heard many singers forget their own songs particularly if they have not sung them in a while, but not only do they remember other people's songs more readily, they also seem to remember their own songs which other people sing, or on which people reliably sing along with them. Of course, that may also reflect a bit of the 'remember the memorable' idea, if the songs that other people take up to sing are a writer's best work, but that can't be all; I have heard songwriters forget some truly wonderful works. I wonder if composing on tape and singing along with oneself over and over would make the song stick better than composing/recording the words on paper.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 07:17 AM

I can't remember forgetting a song.

Subject: RE: Who forgets their own songs?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 07:23 AM

What's a blessing Bert? I forgot the question!

LTS