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What are 'piners' THE SALT - v.6 line1

Rog Peek 14 Apr 07 - 12:19 PM
Rog Peek 17 Apr 07 - 06:17 PM
MartinRyan 17 Apr 07 - 06:33 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Apr 07 - 08:01 PM
Effsee 17 Apr 07 - 09:02 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Apr 07 - 09:33 PM
Peace 17 Apr 07 - 09:42 PM
Peace 17 Apr 07 - 10:00 PM
MartinRyan 18 Apr 07 - 03:06 AM
Peace 18 Apr 07 - 03:48 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 18 Apr 07 - 06:58 AM
leeneia 18 Apr 07 - 09:43 AM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 18 Apr 07 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,Richard Spencer 18 Apr 07 - 12:04 PM
Mr Happy 18 Apr 07 - 12:09 PM
Rog Peek 18 Apr 07 - 12:15 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Apr 07 - 12:58 PM
Dave Hunt 18 Apr 07 - 02:30 PM
Dave Hunt 18 Apr 07 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,Martin Ryan 18 Apr 07 - 03:27 PM
Rog Peek 19 Apr 07 - 02:24 AM
Jim Dixon 19 May 10 - 08:07 PM
Rog Peek 20 May 10 - 02:03 PM
GUEST,leeneia 20 May 10 - 08:37 PM
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Subject: What are 'piners' THE SALT - v.6 line1
From: Rog Peek
Date: 14 Apr 07 - 12:19 PM

I am assuming that the lyrics posted on DigiTrad have been transcribed from the version on Kevin Connef's 'A Week Before Easter'in which he sings "He fed me on nothing but piners...."
However, when we went to see the Chieftains at the Colston Hall in Bristol some years ago, he sang The Salt, but substituted 'crubeens' for 'piners'. I've also heard the song sung in Dan O'Connell's in Knocknagree Co. Cork since, and here 'crubeens' were used. I know that crubeens are pig's trotters, but does anyone know what piners are?


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Subject: RE: What are 'piners' THE SALT - v.6 line1
From: Rog Peek
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:17 PM

Come on, someone out there must know what these 'piners' are.
Mustn't they?......Eaten half raw off the pan!


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Subject: RE: What are 'piners' THE SALT - v.6 line1
From: MartinRyan
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:33 PM

I should know this one... I remember checking it out years ago. But it won't come back to me! My first guess would be turnips but I dunno.

I'll find it !

Regards


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Subject: RE: What are 'piners' THE SALT - v.6 line1
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 08:01 PM

Found it in the Oxford English Dictionary, of course.
In Sc. dialects, applied to a man who cuts peat, turfs, etc. Before the 18th c., spelled pynours or similar.


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Subject: RE: What are 'piners' THE SALT - v.6 line1
From: Effsee
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:02 PM

"He fed me on nothing but men who cuts peat, turfs, etc"...doesn't just gel does it?


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Subject: RE: What are 'piners' THE SALT - v.6 line1
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:33 PM

Just noted that the song is Irish, not Scots. Could mean something entirely different.


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Subject: RE: What are 'piners' THE SALT - v.6 line1
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:42 PM

"And he fed me on nothin' but piners? (Misunderstood word, sorry), he said they would make me a man;
Well, they damn near made me a dead one, eaten half raw off the pan! "

That is from

"Subject: Lyr Add: THE SALT
From: Auxiris - PM
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 03:16 AM

I see this is a recently revived thread and also that someone mentioned a song called "The Salt" earlier on. Here are the lyrics"


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Subject: RE: What are 'piners' THE SALT - v.6 line1
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 10:00 PM

Rog, I'm thinking the word piners in the DT version is in quotation marks because it could not be understood accurately by whoever posted the words back in 1997. Quite possibly it's not piners at all.


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Subject: RE: What are 'piners' THE SALT - v.6 line1
From: MartinRyan
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:06 AM

It's "piners" alright! I supplied the version in the DT - and recall checking the word (and its meaning) at the time. I'll get back to it.

Regards


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Subject: RE: What are 'piners' THE SALT - v.6 line1
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:48 AM

My apologies, Martin. No offense meant to you or to your transcription.


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Subject: RE: What are 'piners' THE SALT - v.6 line1
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 06:58 AM

No offence taken, of course. It's just galling that I can't recall the meaning or the source from which I got it.

Regards


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Subject: RE: What are 'piners' THE SALT - v.6 line1
From: leeneia
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:43 AM

Idle curiosity - How can one substitute crubeens for piners when the words have the accent in a different place?

For what it's worth, my unabridged dictionary, which often provides archaic and dialict words, doesn't have "piners."


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Subject: RE: What are 'piners' THE SALT - v.6 line1
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:48 AM

A few enquiries among the more rural of my colleagues elicits one meaning as "a lamb that isn't thriving" - which is fair enough but not the relevant sense.

Regards


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Subject: RE: What are 'piners' THE SALT - v.6 line1
From: GUEST,Richard Spencer
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 12:04 PM

That is the meaning I was told - that he was being fed on remains of the farm animals that had died of "natural" causes, e.g. those that had pined away.
This fits well with the rest of the song.

Gosh, my first Mudcat post!


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Subject: RE: What are 'piners' THE SALT - v.6 line1
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 12:09 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_Piners


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Subject: RE: What are 'piners' THE SALT - v.6 line1
From: Rog Peek
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 12:15 PM

leeneia

The accent on piners is on the 'i', accent on the 'u' in crubeens, same number of syllables, can't see the problem. Even if accents awere in the wrong place, surely poetic licence could be invoked.

After all, in 'Don't Think Twice It's Alright', Dylan substituted 'knowed' for 'knew' so that it would rhyme with 'road' and nobody complained.

Kevin Coneff managed ok, the man who sang it in O'Connells managed ok and I manage ok every time I sing it. Crubeens certainly makes perfect sense, but as you say, CURIOSITY dictates the pursuance of the meaning of 'piners'.

Thanks anyway for trying your dictionary.
Rog


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Subject: RE: What are 'piners' THE SALT - v.6 line1
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 12:58 PM

Martin, I hope you find it.

As posted before, 'piner' is in the complete Oxford English Dictionary, with the definition I gave, 1. a labourer; "now in N. E. Scottish dialects applied to a man who cuts peat, turf, etc." Quotations are given, some medieval.
The old spelling was pynouris or similar.

Maybe someone can translate this entry, which looked interesting- 1572, Knox: Sa scho wel lappit in a cope of leid and keipit ... unto the nyntene of October, quhen scho by pynouris wes caryed to a schip, and sa caryed to France. Sounds like a body is involved.


There are other meanings given in the OED-
One who pines.
A worker in pine, or one who logs pine (U. S. and Australia).
One who inters the dead.
An animal suffering from a wasting disease.
A tormentor.

Pinery- a pineapple plantation.
Pinery- a grove of pine trees.


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Subject: Lyr Req. Come and I will sing you/Dilly Bird
From: Dave Hunt
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 02:30 PM

Looking for the lyrics of a song that I heard years ago - I have little bits of it.

Come and I will sing you.
What will you sing me
I will sing you one-O
One of them is all alone and evermore shall be so

Come and I will sing you etc..

Other bits are (possibly!)
Two of them are lilywhite boys cloth-ed all in green-o
?Three of them are strangers?
Four for the cheerful waiter
Five for the ferry man in his boat

....? it is the dilly bird that's seldom seen but heard-o

Any help greatly appreciated! Dave Hunt


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Subject: RE: What are 'piners' THE SALT - v.6 line1
From: Dave Hunt
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 02:38 PM

Sorry - my last post was not meant for here at all! Another case of Compooter Thrombosis (the clot behind the finger) I'll get me coat.....
Dave


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Subject: RE: What are 'piners' THE SALT - v.6 line1
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:27 PM

Q

"animal suffering from a wasting disease" is very much the sense in which the term is still used in rural Ireland, as far as I can see. Describing them as "non-thriving" is perhaps our Irish optimism!

Regards


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Subject: RE: What are 'piners' THE SALT - v.6 line1
From: Rog Peek
Date: 19 Apr 07 - 02:24 AM

Martin

That certainly sounds like you have it.

Many thanks

Rog


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Subject: RE: What are 'piners' THE SALT - v.6 line1
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 19 May 10 - 08:07 PM

From Out-Door Sports in Scotland by "Ellangowan" (pseud. of James Glass Bertram) (London: W. H. Allen & Co., 1890), page 187 & 332:
    No poacher is so stupid as to send "cheepers" or "piners" to his merchant. ...

    These men bought from keepers, through the agency of a confederate who shared in the profits of the swindle, all the poor grouse which could be obtained—"cheepers," "piners," and "cripples" especially. ...

    ...these men opened all the hampers of grouse sent by the same train, and, selecting the largest and fattest birds, replaced them with "piners" or "cheepers." ...

    It is better to have a hundred birds in fine condition and of heavy weight, than two hundred half-hungered "piners."

From Veterinary Journal and Annals of Comparative Pathology, Volume 40 1895:
    In Germany they allowed the meat of the "piner" or "waster" to be sold....

    Some animals seemed to resist the disease [tuberculosis], but others to succumb to it. The byre was a ricketty old place with sanitary arrangements altogether bad, and the marvel was that any of the animals escaped at all. There were only one or two of what might be called "piners;" the others seemed to hang on and to be fairly well.

From Bulletins of the Aberdeen and North of Scotland College of Agriculture, 1903-4
    The experiments do not lend any support to the idea that feeding on separated milk and substitutes so weakens the constitution of the calves that they are likely to become piners, or to succumb to disease. All the lots suffered from minor ailments like colds, and the whole milk calves were just as much troubled in this respect as the others. Three calves went wrong after weaning, and had to be removed from the experiment. Two of these, which became piners, and succumbed to tuberculosis, were whole milk calves.

From The Bankers' Magazine, Volume 67 London, 1899.
    The question was raised as to whether there should be a limit of price under which no animal should be insured, so as to exclude "piners" from the operation of the insurance system.


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Subject: RE: What are 'piners' THE SALT - v.6 line1
From: Rog Peek
Date: 20 May 10 - 02:03 PM

This all seems to tie in then. Anyway, since Martin's post I've gone back to singing 'piners'.

By the way Jim, 'mondegreen' was a new one on me, so thanks for that.

Rog


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Subject: RE: What are 'piners' THE SALT - v.6 line1
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 20 May 10 - 08:37 PM

"Maybe someone can translate this entry, which looked interesting- 1572, Knox: Sa scho wel lappit in a cope of leid and keipit ... unto the nyntene of October, quhen scho by pynouris wes caryed to a schip, and sa caryed to France. Sounds like a body is involved."

Here's what it means:

So she, [was] well wrapped in a coffin of lead and kept...until the 19th of October, when she by piners was carried to a ship, and so carried to France.

No doubt you are right about the body being involved.


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