Chord at start of Scottish dance set

Subject: Chord at start of Scottish dance set
From: houghmagandie
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 12:48 PM

Hi!
Can anyone tell me the name for the chord the band plays at the start of a Scottish country dance set, while the man and woman bow and curtsey? It's called a "toosh" in Hungarian dance music if that's of any interest to anyone.

Subject: RE: Chord at start of Scottish dance set
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 12:54 PM

if its in a major key ,its probably the dominant seventh,that is if the tune starts on the tonic,so if the tune is in g major,most probably d7.

Subject: RE: Chord at start of Scottish dance set
From: houghmagandie
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 12:58 PM

No, I don't mean that. I mean what is the general name, if any, for the chord the band plays at the start of a set.

Subject: RE: Chord at start of Scottish dance set
From: bubblyrat
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 01:21 PM

The Mac Toosh ?? Or, by extension, the MacIntosh ??

Subject: RE: Chord at start of Scottish dance set
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 01:37 PM

The 'honour' chord maybe? The bow/curtsey is called honours in Medieval dancing.

Subject: RE: Chord at start of Scottish dance set
From: MaineDog
Date: 15 Apr 07 - 02:50 PM

As a Scottish Country Dancer and musician, we always call it "the Chord".
It is to be in the root key of the first dance tune to be played. It should be exactly four beats long, unless there is an upbeat to the main tune, so that the dancers will pick up on the tempo. ( they are already told whether it is a jig, strathspey, or reel, or ?) frequently you will also hear the musicians' upbeat preceeding the Chord, so as to get them together. There should also be a chord at the end, in the root key of the final tune of the set ( which is usually the same as the first tune).
MD

Subject: RE: Chord at start of Scottish dance set
From: Mo the caller
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 04:06 AM

And an English dance caller may say
"Honour your partner on the chord"

Subject: RE: Chord at start of Scottish dance set
From: ced2
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 08:58 AM

Many Scottish dance and other traditional tunes are written in the MIXOLYDIAN mode so the normal dominant seventh chord in the normal three chord trick would be VERY WRONG. In the key of "G" mixolydian the accompanying chords are generally G C and F (instead of D7), in the key of "D" mixolydian they would be D G and C (instead of A7) and in the key of "A" mixolydian they would be A, D, and C (instead of E7). Why is this so? It is because the seventh note on the scale has been flattened by one semitone, ie in the Key of "G", F natural is played instead of F#; in the Key of "D", C instead of C#; and in the key of "A" G instead of G#. Guitar players who simply play the traditional three chord trick always wreck the tune if they do not recognise this modal change. Further steps into the modal cycle involve flattening other notes on a prescribed basis. Many of these modes are not used regularly but the DORIAN mode turns up now and again. The appropriate accompanying 3 chord trick in the Key of "D" dorian being D, F and C.
It is not rocket science but it is far from common knowledge, indeed, modal music is generally so poorly understood that there was a conversation between Cecil Sharpe and a very senior person at the Royal College of Music that is reputed to have contained the remark "Do you mean that these peasants understand mixolydian and other model music when I spend years trying to teach my students it without much success?" The reply was "Yes.".
Take care though, sometimes Scottish music fluctuates between major ( or called in modal terms Ionian) and mixolydian keys as in 'Athol Highlanders' other times it stays firmly in the mixolydian key.
One way of a guitarist spotting is to have a look at the number of sharps at the start of the tune and the final note. If there are 2 sharps the end note would normally be D but if it is A the tune is probably in A mixolydian (probably being derived from pipe music). One sharp finishing in D probably means D mixolydian, and no sharps finishing in G is probably in G mixolydian. But beware music is an art and not an exact science and although this rule may well be of assistance it is not immutable.
Chief O'Neils favourite fluctuates between the major and the dorian modes and whilst the majority of the tune is in D major the first two bars of the b part are in dorian mode and thus require F and C chords (one bar of each) to obtain a correct accompanyment.
And If the odd guitat player thinks I am being harsh, I am one too, but take the view that I accompany the tune and shoud therefore play appropriate chords and not simply crash on with a standard 3 chord trick.
Most of modal music is a mathematical progression of the 1 or 2 semitone gap between notes, I did produce a piece of work on this but I am not sure I can open or up-load it as it was on a data base that my current set up would not recognise. When I get a decent scanner I could try to get it into a form that might be transportable, in the meantime sorry can only get a copy to someone via SAE and snailmail.

Subject: RE: Chord at start of Scottish dance set
From: ced2
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 09:04 AM

Sorry I made a mistake in the above the chords; in "A" mixolydian they are A D and G (not C)
Put brain back into gear now.

Subject: RE: Chord at start of Scottish dance set
From: English Jon
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 09:05 AM

That's assuming that the "honour chord" isn't a deliberate momentary fluctuation from Ionian into a mixolydian tune Ced2.

Or perhaps these traditional players DONT actually understand modal theory at all...maybe they perform instinctively?

>ducks<

What amazes me is that universities think it's necessary to teach modes. It's so bleeding obvious. I remember being asked to "write a modal composition" (ie, single monodic line -The lecturer told me off for having "too many D's in it." What a twat.

Cheers,
Jon

Subject: RE: Chord at start of Scottish dance set
From: Little Robyn
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 04:02 PM

A courtesy chord perhaps. In my husbands group it was known as
Ta-Daahhh!

Subject: RE: Chord at start of Scottish dance set
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 04:24 PM

dear ced2,
I said if the tune is in the major key,its probaBly the dominantseventh if the tune starts on the tonic,
Iam well acquainted with modes[Just in the unlikely case,that your post was aimed at me].

Subject: RE: Chord at start of Scottish dance set
From: treewind
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 05:45 PM

"I said if the tune is in the major key,its probably the dominantseventh if the tune starts on the tonic"

You may have said that and repeated it, but I agree with MaineDog that (a) it's called "the chord", with no special name, and
(b) it's the tonic chord of the tune's key, not a dom7th or anything else

As for the length of the chord, I'll accept MaineDog's authority - I've never have thought about that detail very much. We don't generally start with a chord as we aren't a Scottish band...

Anahata

Subject: RE: Chord at start of Scottish dance set
From: ced2
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:51 AM

Not aimed at you cap'n; but it is aimed at those guitar players who thrash 3 common major chords in accompanying a tune when the tune is mixolydian or dorian and then, no matter how politely given, refuse to accept any advice about the right chords. Even to the point of this advice being given by more than one person or repeated several times these are those who discordantly crash on regardless.

Subject: RE: Chord at start of Scottish dance set
From: English Jon
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:50 AM

So now were accompanying modal melodies with chordal harmony....historical precedence?

What exactly are the "Right Chords"? anyway.

Lets assume our tune is so rigid that it won't deviate from from a mode, say mixolydian. (G to G all on the white notes)

If you're arguing the case for heavy use of a F major chord (which is what people usually seem to like), lets look at the harmonic implications...

The melody is likely to have F natural leading back to the G more times than not, the F being the flattened leading note. Stick the Dominant (C) on top of that and you have paralel 5ths anyway leading to the D (dominant of G). Not great harmonic writing, but we'll let that go as it works, however clumsy.

You've also got a VII-I Cadence - this is so far removed from the Cycle of Vs that the ear will perceive it as a momentary shift of key to F Ionian, cadencing I-II, ie root to dominant of dominant.

If what we want is a standard dominant to tonic cadence, then the chord roots at these points must be D-G, put that against an F-G in the melody and the correct chords are clearly Dm - G ie v-I cadence.

This would be great if it wasn't for the fact that using classical triadic harmony in the context of a modal as opposed to keyed melody is rather akin to playing chopin on the hurdy gurdy. You can do it, but that's not really what it was designed for.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Subject: RE: Chord at start of Scottish dance set
From: Mitch the Bass
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 07:06 AM

To answer the original question - I've also only ever kown this as the Chord.

Elaborating on the details - I play in a Scottish band, Accordion, Fiddle, Bass and Drums. We always start with a short upbeat from the accordion (In fact it's two notes, the dominant preceded by a short grace note a semitone lower. So in G it's C#,D) followed by a chord which is three beats long and then the upbeat for the dance on the fourth beat. The chord has two pulses, on the first and third beats and I play two bass notes one on the first beat and a second shorter note on the third beat. There are some dances where leading couples are required to change sides at the beginning of the dance which call for two starting chords.

The finishing chord is similar except there is no upbeat. The final bar of the dance is also "played out". That is to say there is a pulse, and bass note on the 3rd beat of the bar. (in 4/4) unlike English dances which more often finish on the first beat of the final bar.

Mitch

Subject: RE: Chord at start of Scottish dance set
From: Crystal
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 07:44 AM

On the university Scottish dance scene we usually call it the "bow&curtsy" or just "The Chord", or occasionally "YERK!!" as we are chatting to our partners and the beginning of the dance takes us by suprise, causing us to leap backwards back to our place in the set.

Subject: RE: Chord at start of Scottish dance set
From: GUEST,Darowyn
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:11 AM

According to Terry Pratchett, it is a legal requirement, played to warn the public that Scottish Dancing is about to take place, and give them time to get away.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Chord at start of Scottish dance set
From: ced2
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:21 AM

In reply to English Jon, I ain't received complaints from some pretty good players of a variety of lead instruments when I'v played mixolydian or dorian music in the way I described above, indeed seem to be more welcome than merely tolerated amd occassionally other guitarists advised to watch what I am doing! As we say in Yorkshire 'nuff ced!(sic) pun intended!

Subject: RE: Chord at start of Scottish dance set
From: treewind
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:40 AM

"The melody is likely to have F natural leading back to the G more times than not, the F being the flattened leading note. Stick the Dominant (C) on top of that and you have paralel 5ths anyway leading to the D (dominant of G). Not great harmonic writing"

Nonsense, my dear chap. It's perfectly possible to write a F-G transition without a parallel fifth in sight. And to play one on a guitar, for that matter, if one must.

As for Herded Gerbils and Chopin...
The other day I heard (on R3) some Schubert played on the Hurdy Gurdy - a song from Winterreise (IIRC) which refers to a HG which is imitated by Schubert's piano accompaniment - so someone substituted a real HG and it sounded - well, interesting, to say the least.

We digress, but I think the original topic's been covered, so we might as well have fun.

a little learning...
Wot you said!
Cheers
Anahata

Subject: RE: Chord at start of Scottish dance set
From: Trevor Thomas
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:58 AM

I call this type of chord a 'Shand'.

Subject: RE: Chord at start of Scottish dance set
From: Joybell
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:46 PM

I also called it a "Shand" or a "Jimmy Shand" when I had a bush band during the 60s.
My fiddler friend, who sometimes plays for Scottish dancers, says that the length of the chord sets the tempo for the dance. He's never heard a term for it but would be interested to know if there is one.
Cheers, Joy