New Discoveries in Cornish Music

Subject: New Discoveries in Cornish Music
From: GUEST,Crowdercref
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 03:03 AM

For your information another MS book of dance music has come to light. This one is in the private library at Prideaux Place, Padstow, North Cornwall. It seem to have been the private music book of Frances Prideaux and was probably compiled betwen 1788 and 1796. Initial analysis suggests it contains fairly typical country dance tunes and minuets of its time, with some local material. I hope to publish it later this year.

This is the fifth such MS book of social music to be found. The list is now:
John Giddy compiled c 1730-1750
Morval House MS 1750-1780
Frances Prideaux 1788-1796
John Old of Par 1808-1809
William Allen of St Ives 1820-1858

We are also making advances with the music of William Polwhele (1594-c1661) which starts to fill that difficult gap between the late medieval world of minstrelsy, caroles, morris, mumming, church ales, etc. and modern times.

Information from the high medieval period remains difficult. But from various documentary sources we are slowly building a picture of the musical world of the time of the Earls.

Quite a lot of scholarship has been poured onto this study, but I'm always pleased to get suggestions/ideas/references from others working in the same or related areas.

Subject: RE: New Discoveries in Cornish Music
From: sian, west wales
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 04:25 AM

Would you like this circulated further, i.e. beyond Mudcat? I can circulate the information within Wales but it would help to have either contact details or for you to be a Mudcat member. "Guests" have been known to post, then not return to check responses ...

I know one retired academic who has connected traditional songs, generally associated with North Wales, with one small patch in S W Wales, and again with Cornwall - all connected with itinerant quarry workers. I myself am interested in anything you might have on carols.

sian

Subject: RE: New Discoveries in Cornish Music
From: Crowdercref
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 05:03 AM

Meur Ras Sian,

I take your points, so I have joined as a Mudcat Member!

I'm happy for this info to be passed to anyone you think appropriate.

My main area is instrumental music, but I do know a moderate amount about carols.
I'm familiar with Dr. Richard Mc Grady's work on late medieval carols.
I know quite a lot about the Padstow carols.

Oll an gwella,

Crowdercref

Subject: RE: New Discoveries in Cornish Music
From: sian, west wales
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 05:59 AM

Diolch, Crythor ... Cryf (??)

If you send any info in a message to me at trac at [e-mail] we can send it out to the e-list which I think stands at around 400 now and includes both performers and academics. I'm sure there will be many with an interest in this collection ...

Oh, and welcome to Mudcat!

sian

Subject: RE: New Discoveries in Cornish Music
From: Anne Lister
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 06:29 AM

Glad you've both made contact ... remind me to tell you each more about each other some time!

Anne

Subject: RE: New Discoveries in Cornish Music
From: sian, west wales
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 06:36 AM

How ominous does that sound ... ! Just glad I haven't told you any of the good stuff. (And, when I say 'good', I mean ... )

sian

Subject: RE: New Discoveries in Cornish Music
From: GUEST,Cats
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 06:51 AM

Welcome to Mudcat Crowdercref. I can assure all catters out there that this guy really does know what he's talking about... add that to being a stunning fiddler, superb concertina player, brilliant songwriter, but more than all of that put together - a really good guy.

Subject: RE: New Discoveries in Cornish Music
From: alanabit
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 07:07 AM

Thanks for posting Crowdercref. I live in Köln Germany, but I grew up just outside of Callington. Please keep us posted as to what else emerges.

Subject: RE: New Discoveries in Cornish Music
From: sian, west wales
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 07:27 AM

I've also started a 'Welcome' thread down below

sian

Subject: RE: New Discoveries in Cornish Music
From: Crowdercref
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 07:28 AM

To make sure this stays inclusive,

Meur ras, onen hag oll,      Big thanks, one and all.

Oll an gwella,    All the best

Crowdercref Big fiddler! (or crouther)

In Cornwall 'crowd' started out meaning 'crwth', but by the 17th century had become a generic term for any sort of woody-stringy-bowey-scrapey instrument (viola da gamba, violin, etc)

Subject: RE: New Discoveries in Cornish Music
From: leeneia
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 09:36 AM

Crowdercref, you wrote "I'm always pleased to get suggestions/ideas/references from others working in the same or related areas."

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, so at the risk of seeming obvious I will point out that there are Cornish groups around the world who might be interested in hearing about or funding your work. (Go to Google and enter "Cornish Society.")

I grew up in Wisconsin and was made aware that there were towns there with Cornish heritage. Cornish music might have been preserved in towns such as that.

Subject: RE: New Discoveries in Cornish Music
From: alanabit
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 11:54 AM

I believe Grass Valley, near Sacramento in California also has a very strong Cornish connection.

Subject: RE: New Discoveries in Cornish Music
From: Crowdercref
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 01:15 PM

Yes, the last two posts are absolutely right. The Cornish diaspora reaches across the world. Where traditional culture has been maintained in those communities (such as polyphonic carols in South Australia) it's a useful addition to our knowledge. I've hardly looked as such sources, for the reason that since I started this line of research I've been fully employed in understanding music back in Cornwall. I'm sure there is much still to learn.

I started trying to understand Music in Cornwall/Cornish Music about 1999. Since then, helped by a great many folkies and academics, I have written about 50,000 words which take us from about 410 AD to 2007 in some detail, and at academic standards of review. The identified repertoire has expanded by about 300%.

I fund my research by selling transcriptions of the dance music to folk musicians. Also I sell a progressively evolving book called Ilow Kernow, the 4th edition of which is in preparation. As new discoveries have been made this book has got thicker and thicker! It is regarded as a valuable resource for Cornish social/traditional music. But it is certainly not perfect and we really need more source info.

At this (still early) stage, MSS of social music or song, or documentary accounts/references are vital. So if anyone knows of such things referring to Cornwall I'd love to hear. If anyone has specific info then a quick exchange of emails will check if the material is already on the database.

Thanks for your interest.

Crowdercref

Subject: RE: New Discoveries in Cornish Music
From: mg
Date: 16 Apr 07 - 08:59 PM

I am finding out I have some probable Cornish ancestry, and I believe they were in the Midwest...what were some of the locations that people know about? mg

Subject: RE: New Discoveries in Cornish Music
From: sian, west wales
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:35 AM

OK - so here's a funny thing: a few years ago I ordered a Cornish flag for my mother from an online Cornish shop and, while I was at it, I decided I'd get me a Cornish CD. (Well, if you're paying for the postage, you might as well top it up, right?)

What I went for was "Covath: The Lost Music of Cornwall". I've listened to it a lot. I'm listening to it now. It's partly why I've been thinking for a while to set up a 'conference' (OK - really big session but 'conferences' tend to attract funding!) to compare research on the musics of the British Isles.

Funny old world.

sian

Subject: RE: New Discoveries in Cornish Music
From: Crowdercref
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 07:01 AM

Hwaet!

Covath has some stuff from both the John Old and John Giddy MSS. Amazingly we've just gone for a third repressing.

I am now planning its successor, which will have music of William Allen, Frances Prideaux, Morval House, William Polwhele, and some shared Brythonic material from Wales, Devon and Brittany.

Are you familiar with a tune: 'Blodau'r Gorllewin' (The Flowers of the West)? I'm trying to learn something of its provenance. It was published by Playford in 1651 as 'Glory of the West', alongside other Royalist material celebrating resistance to parliamentary forces in the Westcountry, but seems to have had a separate life as a Welsh harp tune.

diolch,

Crowdercref

Subject: RE: New Discoveries in Cornish Music
From: Mr Happy
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 07:24 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bCQEbdednY

Subject: RE: New Discoveries in Cornish Music
From: sian, west wales
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 08:04 AM

Hmm. There are a few Blodau this/that/tother but I don't see Blodau'r Gorllewin in any books to hand - modern ones, or Nicholas Bennett Old Welsh Airs, or in Cass Meurig's republication of the John Thomas collection. Might be in Llyfr Cerdd Tannau (1913) but it isn't indexed so I'll have to go through it. If you want provenance, I think we'd need to check probably with Robin Huw Bowen or, outside chance, Phyllis Kinney (she's more 'song' related).

I have heard it, I know I have. Can't call it to mind ...

sian

Subject: RE: New Discoveries in Cornish Music
From: leeneia
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 10:13 AM

Hi, mg. I'm not Cornish, so my knowledge isnt' extensive. But one Cornish Midwestern location I know of is Mineral Point, Wisconsin.

Try googling the name of a state and Cornish (e.g, Wisconsin Cornish) and see what you find. I found Calumet, Michigan that way.

Subject: RE: New Discoveries in Cornish Music
From: Crowdercref
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:23 AM

Thanks for the Youtube clip Mr. Happy.

We've found about 30 Cornish locations where Furry Dances occurred.
There are two versions of the Helston tune, and two versions of the dance (at least!)
The tunes Bodmin Riding and Liskeard Fair were used in some locations.
There are at least 3 processional dances in Derbys/South Yorks that use related tunes.
The Nut Dance (as in Bacup) has a tune which uses the same rhythmic figure as Bodmin Riding and the same structure/modulation as the Helston Furry. (It allegedly was taken there by Cornish miners)

Small world isn't it.

Oll an gwella

Crowdercref

Subject: RE: New Discoveries in Cornish Music
From: sian, west wales
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 12:56 PM

Oops. Forgot that Robin is in America. But Robin being Robin, he carries this stuff around in his head and has sent me this:

Blodeu'r Gorllewin
Parry (Ddall) Rhiwabon, John, British Harmony (London, 1781)
No background (or translation of title for that matter) appears in this volume.

Tune reappears in:

Jones, Edward ('Bardd y Brenin'), The Bardic Museum (London, 1802)
Blodau y' Gorllewin. - The Flowers of the West.
No background again.

Both versions markedly different from Playford's The Glory of the West but they are all the same tune in essence.

(Ddall means Blind - he was a blind)

Crowdercref has now played it me on the piano (ain't telephones great?) and I've decided I probably don't know it, although the closing phrase is annoyingly familiar ...

sian