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BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead?
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Donuel Date: 16 Apr 07 - 04:42 PM video streaming http://media.myfoxdc.com/live/index_streaming3.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 16 Apr 07 - 04:44 PM A previous poster said: "What's the cause? Figure that out and you will end these things much sooner than some phoney gun ban. That will just leave weapons in the hands of irresponsible criminals". The thing is, I don't think criminals are interested in running amok at a college! BTW. I'm from the UK, and, in all of my life, I've never even seen a hand gun. Although young people living in inner-cities probably have. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: beardedbruce Date: 16 Apr 07 - 04:55 PM http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/16/AR2007041600533.html?hpid=topnews |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Donuel Date: 16 Apr 07 - 05:00 PM Did W really exprees his concern that there is a right for people to bear arms, but that all laws must be followed? I wish he had only said it was horrible. I wonder if he has ever repeated, "You'll have to pry my gun from my cold dead hands" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Slag Date: 16 Apr 07 - 05:45 PM It is with great sorrow for our nation and in particular for the families and friends of the victims that I write. My heart goes our to you all. I would that it were not so. No amount of words can touch the horrible grief that follows such a tragedy and I can say this from personal experience. God bless you. I could not help but note the political sniping that began early on in this thread. Save that for another thread. There is coincidentally, ironically, another thread going on right now about gun laws. Post it there and save this one for condolences. I might note in passing that gun laws did not slow this mad man down one whit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Bobert Date: 16 Apr 07 - 06:20 PM Oh, man, oh how hurtfull and sad this news is... The P-Vine and I have been on the road all day and didn't have so much as a clue until we got home about 30 minutes ago and, bang!!! Ahhh, yeah, okay, that many young Amercians dir evry 10 days in Iraq and I feel guilt for paying taxes for that to happen but... ...those folks in Iraq, at the very least, knew that signing up for the military involved some risk but... ...for college kids to be gunned down??? This is a sad, sad day... Right now I don't even want to get into the stupid argument with the righties about handguns... Maybe later... Right now, I am feeling so very sad for those kids and their families and think that I'll just leave it at that and really don't feel like talkin' on Mudcat tonight about this or any thing else so... ...I'll be back maybe tomorrow or the day after that... Peace to all, Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Peace Date: 16 Apr 07 - 07:41 PM There will be two more families mourning. The death toll is now at 33. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: jaze Date: 16 Apr 07 - 08:42 PM "Guns don't kill people, people do" That's bullshit. People WITH guns kill people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Big Mick Date: 16 Apr 07 - 08:45 PM People with cars kill people, people with knives kill people, people with homemade bombs kill people, people with fists kill people,............what's your point??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Charley Noble Date: 16 Apr 07 - 08:45 PM The college administrators will be haunted for years for not cancelling classes after the initial round of shooting. Really horrible! Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: GUEST,gun owner Date: 16 Apr 07 - 09:15 PM The college administrators at Virginia Tech banned handguns on campus too. Virginia has a concealed handgun law, and there was a heated exchange at Virginia Tech over this issue 2 years ago. The students should have been armed so they could take out the shooter. In 2002, just down the road at Appalachia Law School, a couple of students got their guns from their cars and stopped a similar incident. Disarming people is nuts. I bought 4000 rounds of ammo this weekend to disperse to family members. All firearms we have are legal, all users responsible. I feel sad for the families of those killed. Shouldn't have happened. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Bill D Date: 16 Apr 07 - 09:29 PM I shudder at the thought of THOUSANDS of students running around armed. There 'might' be fewer mass murders, but I'll BET you there'd be more incidents involving guns...including more accidents and more impulsive bits of 'self-defense' against everything from insults to imagined break-ins. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Bill D Date: 16 Apr 07 - 09:41 PM "People with cars kill people, people with knives kill people, people with homemade bombs kill people, people with fists kill people,.." except for 'homemade bombs', Mick, those are not valid comparisons...and homemade bombs are not that common or easy....or 'fun'. Cars & knives and fists all have everyday, legitimate uses. Guns are made to shoot things. VERY few people have the need to shoot something daily. Knives are indeed deadly...but if the guy had been using a knife, he would likely have been subdued - and one can run from a knife...or hold up a book...etc... Cars? Aww...c'mon! Bricks next? I DO understand the arguments of those who enjoy guns for peaceful purposes...and *IF* you can figure out a way to confine them to persons who can be trusted, I'll shut up.... Sadly, as I have said, I do not know how to either limits guns to sane people, or to remove guns if the law were changed....we have gone so far down this path that I despair. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Azizi Date: 16 Apr 07 - 09:44 PM My deepest condolences to all who have lost loved ones and whose loved ones have been injured by this gunman. "There must be a reason why. I don't know." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: TIA Date: 16 Apr 07 - 10:01 PM "The president believes that there is a right for people to bear arms, but that all laws must be followed" Aw Fuck. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Rapparee Date: 16 Apr 07 - 10:02 PM Bill, homemade bombs are far too common. They can and are made with common materials, materials found in your kitchen. We picked up a 12 gauge shell outside the library. It had been rigged to (possibly) detonate when thrown. A teenager was killed down in Utah when he went to inspect a bomb he and his friends has made from a two-liter pop bottle (and other stuff) and had thrown into his back yard. The bomb didn't detonate until he was bending over it. And I know of no way to prevent the spread of the knowledge of how to make such things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Peace Date: 16 Apr 07 - 10:02 PM Why polute this thread with THAT thing? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: TIA Date: 16 Apr 07 - 10:03 PM I've taught there. It's the most beautiful campus in the world (I've seen lots). I was trying to talk my daughter into going there. I think I still will. It's just random fucking bullshit. My god I can't imAGINE THE PARENTS OF THOSE KIDS (AND PROFESSORS). i'M GOING TO THROW UP. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: TIA Date: 16 Apr 07 - 10:08 PM Out of all the people here on the 'cat, the odds are that someone has someone there. My god I'm sorry. It's just devastating. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Rapparee Date: 16 Apr 07 - 10:17 PM TIA, I have friends who teach there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 16 Apr 07 - 10:29 PM Bill D is right. The weapons have been around too long, there is no way to squeeze them out of the culture. They'll just turn up somewhere else on the black market. The students should have been armed so they could take out the shooter. And take out other students in the process. Nothing like a group of excited people with handguns to go from one disaster to another, larger one. Nope. But at least take away the automatic and semi-automatic weapons. No one needs those. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Bill D Date: 16 Apr 07 - 10:42 PM (of course bombs are far too common...any device meant to harm others is too common. Yes they are 'too' easy to make...IF you study a bit & go to some trouble and plan....but they are harder to use! NOTHING is so easy and easily concealable as a handgun. Handguns have a mystique also...having one gives a feeling of power for many, and they are MUCH easier to deal with than building something. I would be overjoyed there were NO handguns and if all we had to worry about was kids building bombs.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Rapparee Date: 16 Apr 07 - 10:47 PM By the way, I've spoken to my friends and they are fine, although shook. Who wouldn't be? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Big Mick Date: 17 Apr 07 - 01:31 AM Bill, all of the points you make are simply gratuitous assertions on your part. I own weapons, they don't make me feel powerful. They also don't have a mystique except to the deluded. I believe I am at least as qualified to speak as to what guns have....i.e. mystique, give feeling of power, etc. Why do I feel this? Because I have been around gun owners my entire life. I was raised with them in my family. Most of my friends owned them. They were prevalent in the area I grew up in. Virtually no one I know ever treated guns in an irresponsible way, nor have I ever seen anyone among the people I have known who ever considered going for a weapon to address a problem or grievance. I have a lifetime experience, Bill, and haven't seen it outside of military life. As to the contention that you would rather deal with bombs, would you? It was silly of you to say so, buddy. Ever seen what about four bags of fertilizer will do? The last point I would make, Bill, relates to your contention that handguns have no everyday, legitimate use. I would contend they have many everyday, legitimate uses. You know it too, or do I need to enunciate them. As to the reason I posted those comparisons, it was an answer to the ignorant and gratuitous post by jaze just before it. And in case anyone wonders, Bill D is a great friend of mine. I consider him a marvelous debater on most subjects. He backs his arguments with facts and solid logic. On this issue, in fact this is the only issue, I think he is off base. But he thinks the same of me....... Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: dianavan Date: 17 Apr 07 - 01:46 AM I am so sad. I feel absolute despair. My heart goes out to the families of those killed and injured. I can't even imagine the number of people traumatized by this event. So much senseless damage. So many lives torn apart. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: autolycus Date: 17 Apr 07 - 02:34 AM Big Mick - your weapons don't make you powerful. The weapons possessed by the UK,France,Israel,Russia,US certainly make THEM feel very powerful. Same mindset. And the mindset is not merely an individual matter,Bill. It belongs to a society - see post above about violent and peaceful cultures. Ivor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Slag Date: 17 Apr 07 - 03:17 AM So much for preserving the thread. It's amazing Peace, you and I can differ so much and yet I find so much agreeable with your wisdom--- sometimes! This is such a horrible thing and my gut reaction is to have a world without weapons or violence. I long for that day to beat the swords into plowshares but I'm not so foolish as to think that by disarming, it will somehow stop the haters, the psychotic, the greedy, the power-hungry and all their ilk, from committing atrocities like this from happening. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Big Mick Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:40 AM Ivor, please reread my post and then comment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 17 Apr 07 - 07:35 AM It was stated on UK TV this morning, by an American commentator, that c. 3,000 'children' (his word) are shot in the US every year. That's THREE F**KIN' THOUSAND! How can the hairy-arse, small-dick "My gun makes me a Big Man" brigade continue to try to justify their utter stupidity? The one and only purpose for a gun is to propel a deadly projectile, IOW to kill. Those pricks can argue all they like, deny till they're blue in the face, but they can't change that fact. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: beardedbruce Date: 17 Apr 07 - 07:57 AM Bush: Shootings impact 'felt in every American classroom' POSTED: 8:37 p.m. EDT, April 16, 2007 Story Highlights• President Bush says Virginia Tech shootings "felt in every American classroom" • Attorney General Gonzales says federal agents already on Virginia Tech campus • Speaker Pelosi leads a moment of silence on House floor WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Bush said Monday that the mass shooting at Virginia Tech, the deadliest campus violence ever in this country, affects every student across the nation. "Schools should be places of safety, sanctuary and learning," Bush said in reaction to the deaths of more than 30 people on the campus. "When that sanctuary is violated, the impact is felt in every American classroom in every American community." Bush spoke with Gov. Timothy M. Kaine and Virginia Tech President Charles Steger. (Watch what Bush pledged to do to help the investigation ) "I told them that Laura and I and many across our nation are praying for the victims and all the members of university community that have been devastated by this terrible tragedy," Bush said in the Diplomatic Room of the White House. "Today our nation grieves with those who have lost loved ones at Virginia Tech," he said. "We hold the victims in our hearts. We lift them up in our prayers and we ask a loving God to comfort those who are suffering today."' Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said agents from the FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives were already on the campus, aiding local authorities in the investigation. "We are committed to providing support and assistance to those authorities as well as to the victims of this crime for as long as necessary," Gonzales said in a statement issued by the Justice Department. "I am deeply saddened and angered by these senseless acts of violence," Gonzales said. "My deepest condolences and prayers go out to those affected by this horrific crime, especially those who lost loved ones." Gonzales had been scheduled to testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee Tuesday regarding the firing of eight U.S. attorneys, but that testimony was postponed because of the Virginia shootings. In the House, which returned Monday from a two-week recess, Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-California, interrupted the proceedings to lead a moment of silence in remembrance. (Watch Speaker Pelosi express Congress' sympathy for the shooting victims ) "As the Virginia Tech community struggles with the mourning and questioning that is certain to follow, the continued prayers from this Congress are with the students, their families, the faculty and the staff at Virginia Tech," Pelosi said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 17 Apr 07 - 07:59 AM BTW, for those who don't believe that Firearms Control works, consider this - in the whole of the UK (population 60m) in 2005/6 there were 50 (yes, that's FIVE-ZERO) homicides by shooting, and 74 in the previous year (source: Home Office Statistical Bulletin ISSN 1358-510X, 25.1.07). How would that extrapolate against a population the size of the US (at a guess 400m) - between 340 and 500? So how many homicides were there by shooting in the US last year? QED. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: GUEST,Black Hawk on work PC Date: 17 Apr 07 - 08:02 AM Strollin' Johnny - The one and only purpose for a gun is to propel a deadly projectile, IOW to kill. Those pricks can argue all they like, deny till they're blue in the face, but they can't change that fact. The only prick on this site is you. Target firearms are designed, manufactured and used to punch holes in paper. Yes they are capable of killing in the wrong hands but so is a hammer etc. When will people stop to actually think instead of making ignorant, uninformed remarks. In the aftermath of Dunblane in the U.K., innocent shooters were penalised for the actions of a deranged person. Handguns were banned & confiscated. Handgun crime in the U.K. has risen at an incredible rate. Stop trying to lay blame (I know it makes you feel better but it does not help) but instead try to get politicians to make it not worthwhile for a criminal to use a gun, knife, candlestick or whatever. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: beardedbruce Date: 17 Apr 07 - 08:08 AM SJ, This is NOT the appropriate thread to discuss this. ( feel free to start another) ALL of us look at this as a tragedy: YOUR trying to make it a discussion of gun control is, while perhaps worthwhile in another thread, not a positive contribution. BTW, US population is 300 million. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Escamillo Date: 17 Apr 07 - 08:23 AM It´s hard to find words to express our sorrow for the tragedy. Me, my family, friends, and everybody I know, are much concerned and talking all the day about the Virginia incidents. We in Argentina have seen some similar cases with one or two victims, but there is a common characteristic of the individuals who caused the tragedy: a history of discrimination, isolation and disrespect against these persons, by members of the students community, ignored or accepted by the authorities, who encourage the spirit of competition, differentiation, division of people into winners and losers, into members and not members of internal groups or teams, etc. A sane person will never have a criminal reaction, but let´s sum a hostile social environment, to a psychotic personality, to a growing tension, to the wide availability of lethal weapons which are terribly easy to carry and use, to some particular incident, and we have all the elements for a tragedy. It will be hard to recover from so much pain, but we have to do something to find the causes and amend the policies which are failing. Un abrazo - Andrés, from Buenos Aires |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Rapparee Date: 17 Apr 07 - 08:28 AM I now know that I knew, slightly, one of the dead students. Also, a prof at the local U. has found out that his son, a student at VT, was hurt when he jumped out a window -- badly sprained ankle -- and he and his wife are quite naturally greatly relieved. The news this morning says that the shooter was an Asian student at the university, and that's about ALL that's new. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Rapparee Date: 17 Apr 07 - 08:30 AM I'm concerned about copycat events, especially now that the school year is winding down and those whose grades are less than expected. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: GUEST,Black Hawk Date: 17 Apr 07 - 08:35 AM Well said BeardedBruce! Give the families space to grieve. They have my sincerest sympathies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Bobert Date: 17 Apr 07 - 08:37 AM Well, though now is not the time, a ***reasonable*** discussion about handguns in the US is long overdue... But not now... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:22 AM Bearded Bruce - I understand what you're saying, but I'd suggest that this is absolutely the place to discuss the stupidity of allowing free access to firearms for anyone who wants them. Were it not for firearms this thread would not exist, and the world would be a happier place. However, I'm as sad as the next man about this tragedy, and I'll respect the views of others and butt out. Apologies to anyone who I may have offended (except, of course, the stupid gun-freaks). S:0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: katlaughing Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:30 AM It would be better over on the Gun Crime thread, SJ, though I do agree with you. HERE is a link to the school website and what they have to say, with the shooter's identity, etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Strollin' Johnny Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:49 AM OK, mea culpa. I allowed my feelings of revulsion to get the better of me. Apologies all round and sincere condolences to those affected by this tragedy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: beardedbruce Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:50 AM Student Gunman Identified Tuesday, Apr. 17, 2007 By CAITLIN SULLIVAN/BLACKSBURG AND KATHERINE ROONEY/WASHINGTON The gunman responsible for Monday's wave of terror which killed 32 people at the Virginia Polytechnic and State University was identified by police Tuesday morning as Cho Seung-Hui, 23, a resident alien originally from South Korea. Cho, a senior studying English, lived on campus. Related How to Make Campuses Safer Unlike high schools, most universities can't beef up security with a metal detector or two. So what can be done to protect students? His killing spree had begun 7:15 a.m., with the shooting of a woman and a male resident adviser on the fourth floor of a dorm building on campus. Kristen Bensley, a freshman who lived below the floor where the shooting occurred, told TIME, "There were rumors going on about [the assailant] was fighting with his girlfriend or something of that nature." Bensley suspected the gunmen may have been a a resident of the dorm, or have been admitted by a resident, because entry to the building requires a "passport," a card that one has to swipe in order to open doors before 10 a.m. If so, one question that arises will be how he managed to keep so much ammunition unnoticed. Two weapons have reportedly been recovered, one 22 caliber, the other a 9 mm. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Burke Date: 17 Apr 07 - 10:13 AM With 2 hours between the dorm shooting & the classroom shooting, the gunman had plenty of time to get more ammunition in between. Apparently the Univeristy officials thought they were dealing with a relationship conflict gone terribly wrong. I know lots of students sleep late, but it seems like IM's & the like would have spread the word on campus about something happening, even without official actions. The others killed have not been officially identified, but the television news programs had some identites based on friends or relatives who had been notified or students in the classrooms attacked. As I heard the descriptions of the triple major RA, a dancer, professors who were leaders in their fields, the losses seem so much more palpable. I hold all the students, faculty & thier families in my prayers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: John MacKenzie Date: 17 Apr 07 - 10:24 AM If you're prepared to carry a gun, then you must be prepared to use it. If you're prepared to use it, then you must be prepared to kill someone. If you're prepared to kill someone, you're a potential murderer. If you didn't own a gun, none of these options would be open to you. There's no such thing as a responsible gun owner, only a person who's prepared to kill under the circumstances they think they can dictate! Gun control is the only answer. Tell the NRA to fuck off! Giok |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Desdemona Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:56 AM This is just a complete nightmare, I feel like my head is going to explode just thinking about it. The way the university handled this situation was absolutely inexcusable, and there's going to be holy hell to pay (to say nothing of the 30+ families whose lives will never, never be the same). More than two hours after two students were brutally murdered on campus, people were still blithely waking up, taking showers, eating breakfast, packing their backpacks and heading off to class with no idea of the enormous danger they were in, and even at that point the best effort made to alert them was via E-MAIL?! I don't know about you, but my experience of college students (and professors!) is that they roll out of bed at the last possible moment, especially if they have morning classes, and there is no guarantee they'll have (or take) time to check their e-mail to see if they're in imminent peril of being shot in German class. It's appallingly, needlessly, senselessly tragic how many times and at how many junctures the ball was dropped by the authorities charged with these students' safety and welfare. After the first shooting it was "assumed" the gunman had run away and left campus...oh, that's all right, then, back to business as usual?! Why on earth wasn't the local media alerted? That first incident should have been on the radio, on the television, announced over every loudspeaker on campus and in every forum anyone in that community had access to AND e-mailed. Had they done so, it's very likely that a number of lives might have been spared. I heard some "expert" on the news opining that to have done so would have risked causing a panic. Well, what did they get instead? Panic and the mass slaughter of innocent people. I'm sick at heart that such a thing could happen: that a young person so sick and damaged should have gone unrecognized, that he had such ready access to such deadly weapons, and such an ungodly amount of ammunition, the feebleness of the response to the deaths of two young people in a place where they are supposed to be safe and free to develop their minds, that so many of their peers and teachers had to die as a result of that feebleness...I'm with Giok: the NRA can fuck off, we need stricter gun control and we need it yesterday. ~D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: bubblyrat Date: 17 Apr 07 - 12:17 PM The newspapers in England today are full of pictures of hugely overweight policemen and heavily-armed security guards who, it is reported, were all running around,screaming and shouting at students to raise their hands or be shot,and tackling to the ground and hand-cuffing those students who ,terrified and panic-stricken, were trying to run from the scene . Can this be true ?? What a way to react to a crisis !! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Charley Noble Date: 17 Apr 07 - 12:22 PM There's not a "lesson" that I want to learn from this massacre, although many have already been offered and more candidates are awaiting their unvailing. Some radio talk-show host is probably already calling for all resident aliens to be deported, but not for stricter gun laws or stricter enforcement of what we have. This is just such an opportunity for the Bush Administration to persuade the people to hunker down while they provide more protection in the police state of hell they would like to create. When in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout. Somewhere, old Satan is smiling at his fun. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Bill D Date: 17 Apr 07 - 12:34 PM Mick...I went to bed before you posted....but "Bill, all of the points you make are simply gratuitous assertions on your part. I own weapons, they don't make me feel powerful. They also don't have a mystique except to the deluded." I carefully SAID "gives a feeling of power for many",...and they only NEED to have that mystique and give a feeling of power for a few. " I would contend they have many everyday, legitimate uses. You know it too, or do I need to enunciate them." Nope...they are handy for trained, legitimate law officers & security personnel, who often need them to confront kids on the street who have them illegally. "As to the contention that you would rather deal with bombs, would you? It was silly of you to say so, buddy. Ever seen what about four bags of fertilizer will do?" Yes...but you read far too much into what I said. I do not anticipate kids holding up 7/11s with bags of fertilizer. *IF* all I had to worry about was that a kid with a grudge would go out and try to buy fertilizer, I'd be relieved....(and insert several other counter examples here). " Virtually no one I know ever treated guns in an irresponsible way, nor have I ever seen anyone among the people I have known who ever considered going for a weapon to address a problem or grievance. I have a lifetime experience, Bill, and haven't seen it outside of military life." But the stories of those who DO are in the news every day! YOU, Mick, hang out with more sensible folks, I guess. But you also know very well that there are multiple thousands of weapons out there in the hands of those who do not have the same attitude as you. You have lived in large, dangerous cities....you KNOW that there are places where you would need to be very careful, lest you meet the kind you prefer to ignore in your argument. Sorry, Mick...but you compliment me on my debating skills, then you throw me big, fat blooper pitches. As I say...show me how to limit gun |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Leadfingers Date: 17 Apr 07 - 12:41 PM Whatever your viewpoint on the posession of guns , its a bloody mess !! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Virginia Tech Shooting, 20 dead? From: Bill D Date: 17 Apr 07 - 12:54 PM (I see the pleas to limit this thread to 'sympathy' etc., but obviously that's not going to happen. I doubt any of the victim's families are going to be reading this.) and frankly, I am weary of the use of weak, fallacious arguments about how 'hammers' or knives or autos are also deadly in the wrong hands. Fine...I stipulate that I 'might' be assaulted with a brick on a dark street, or that a disgruntled student 'might' drive his car into a crowd. That is not the point!!! The point is that we have guns...ESPECIALLY handguns inaddition to those dangers....we NEED hammers & bricks and cars. I at least have a chance with a kid waving a brick or knife! Let guns be restricted to those who genuinely NEED them...let ammunition be **tightly** controlled. Let penalties for being found with a gun or ammunition in violation of licenced NEED be VERY severe! Let legitimate collectors of firearms be subject to surprise inspections to see that their collection is secure, and in some instances, rendered incapable of firing! (removed firing pins..whatever) ........nawwww...I don't expect to win. The gun lobby is WAY too powerful. The culture is too far down this road to easily change to the UK model. And I do not feel safe.....and I'm not going to go BUY a gun, pretending that it would make me feel safer. |