Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafemuddy

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2]


Pete Seeger's pseudonym

Related threads:
New and Improved Pete Seeger Website! (5)
Pete Seeger film/DVD: The Power of Song (28)
Pete Seeger - resources (10)
Pete Seeger Live '57 (4)
Pete Seeger Banjo (5)
Pete Seeger's FBI File (10)
Obit: Pete Seeger (1919-2014) (220)
Biography: Pete Seeger vs. the Un-Americans (25)
Seegerfest - FREE !!!! (5)
Pete Seeger Biography Thread (5)
Pete Seeger Commemorative Poster (1)
Pete Seeger as a guitarist (31)
Pete Seeger MDH Records (LP's) (6)
Obit: Penny Seeger (1943-1993) (21)
Tappan Zee Bridge/Pete Seeger (11)
Pete Seeger on CNN. rare film (15)
Forgive my ignorance-is Pete Seeger still alive (35) (closed)
Pete Seeger wrinkles the brow of HUAC (22)
Obit: Toshi Seeger Passes (9 Jul 2013) (31)
Pete Seeger on NPR & new album (14)
Pete Seeger Steps in for Arlo (4)
Colbert Report with Pete Seeger--6 Aug 2012 (24)
Pete Seeger book: '... His Own Words' (2)
Review: S-F set: Pete Seeger at Bowdoin 1960 (1)
Happy Birthday Pete Seeger (24)
Pete Seeger's Axe- fact or urban legend? (41)
Pete Seegers Rainbow Quest (27)
The Power of Song film in Japan / Pete Seeger (16)
Pete Seeger - 92nd birthday (25)
Pete Seeger Birthday (born May 3, 1919) (21)
Pete Seeger Audio Documentary (5)
Pete Seeger's Power of Song-PBS, Feb 27 (88)
Pete Seeger Sundays (4)
Happy! - May 3 (Pete Seeger born, 1919) (17)
Learning the Banjo From Pete Seeger (93)
Pete Seeger and Wolf Trap on PBS (10)
Seeger genealogy (51)
Seeger Book: Where Have All The Flowers Gone (4)
Pete Seeger on Saipan? (3)
Pete Seeger 90 broadcast (5)
How can one meet (or write) Pete Seeger? (38)
Pete Seeger: Nobel Peace -Updated-deadline Feb1! (103)
Video Req: Pete Seeger & Arlo Guthrie @ Saratoga (4)
Pete Seeger - 1st Distinguished Alumnus (3)
Pete Seeger documentary project (7)
WFDU-Pete Seeger - The Power of Song (5)
Article on Pete Seeger (6)
Hear Your Banjo Play - with Pete Seeger (15)
Wikipedia Entry about Pete Seeger (3)
Review: Pete Seeger in New Yorker Mag (6)
Seeger's swan song? (68)
Pete Seeger's last concert (175)
Seeger unannounced appearance! (33)
MANY VOICES with Pete Seeger 1/28/05 (34)
Happy Birthday Pete Seeger (12)
Pete Seeger's 85th birthday (22)
Pete Seeger's Banjo virtuosity (133)
Happy B-Day, Pete Seeger (23)
Action in the Auction - Pete Seeger Book (9)
Need more gentle folk like Pete (Seeger) (8)
Pete Seeger Banjo Book Movie (4)
Pete Seeger's Banjo - Lost, then FOUND (17)
Rescheduling of Pete Seeger Palltak Trib (1)
Pete Seeger Tribute on Paltalk (15)
Possible Pete Seeger concert on PalTalk (16)
Pete Seeger to play at Common Ground (7)
BS: Pete Seeger, Israel and non-violence (8) (closed)
pete seeger uk concert (2)
Pete Seeger on WFDU (7)
Pete Seeger & Tom Chapin (6)
Pete Seeger in Virginia! (4)
Pete Seeger and Arlo Guthrie 'Together' (9)
Pete Seeger's Banjo: The Real Story (11)
Who kws Pete Seeger,& does he kno of MC? (12)
Pete Seeger's banjo -- RETURNED (101)
Pete Seeger's Got Lyme's Disease (25)
Quintessential Pete Seeger Recordings? (13)
Pete Seeger's banjo on eBay (42)
Pete Seeger's Banjo Stolen (August 2000) (32)
Pete Seegers Banjo stolen (17)
Pete Seeger's Birthday - 81 today (45)
Quick Query: Pete Seeger Experts!? (7)
Pete Seeger on 'The Connection' (2)
Anthony Seeger: Dangerous Songs 2/23 (3)
Pete Seeger at Fort Benning, GA (7)
Celebrate Seeger--May 16th event (1)
Pete Seeger, new album! (1)


zuch@ix.netcom.com 02 Apr 99 - 11:57 AM
Rick Fielding 02 Apr 99 - 12:08 PM
zuch@ix.netcom.com 02 Apr 99 - 12:15 PM
Rick Fielding 02 Apr 99 - 12:45 PM
02 Apr 99 - 12:56 PM
catspaw49 02 Apr 99 - 01:05 PM
Rick Fielding 02 Apr 99 - 01:22 PM
catspaw49 02 Apr 99 - 02:15 PM
Bruce O. 02 Apr 99 - 03:50 PM
MAG (inactive) 02 Apr 99 - 05:53 PM
Bruce O. 02 Apr 99 - 05:59 PM
DonMeixner 02 Apr 99 - 08:22 PM
Sandy Paton 03 Apr 99 - 12:19 AM
DonMeixner 03 Apr 99 - 11:44 PM
Sandy Paton 04 Apr 99 - 03:27 AM
Rick Fielding 04 Apr 99 - 10:44 PM
catspaw49 04 Apr 99 - 11:33 PM
Bruce O. 04 Apr 99 - 11:37 PM
AlistairUK 05 Apr 99 - 11:52 AM
Arkie 05 Apr 99 - 12:15 PM
karen k 05 Apr 99 - 02:42 PM
Sandy Paton 05 Apr 99 - 02:42 PM
Bruce O. 05 Apr 99 - 03:30 PM
Sandy Paton 05 Apr 99 - 05:34 PM
DonMeixner 05 Apr 99 - 05:59 PM
Sandy Paton 06 Apr 99 - 12:27 AM
catspaw49 06 Apr 99 - 04:30 PM
Arkie 06 Apr 99 - 05:41 PM
MAG (inactive) 06 Apr 99 - 08:25 PM
06 Apr 99 - 09:06 PM
Sandy Paton 06 Apr 99 - 10:50 PM
Rick Fielding 07 Apr 99 - 12:59 AM
catspaw49 07 Apr 99 - 01:11 AM
Sandy Paton 07 Apr 99 - 03:31 AM
Joe Offer 07 Apr 99 - 04:00 AM
Rick Fielding 07 Apr 99 - 05:22 AM
catspaw49 07 Apr 99 - 06:21 AM
DonMeixner 07 Apr 99 - 07:28 AM
Sandy Paton 07 Apr 99 - 01:10 PM
Rick Fielding 07 Apr 99 - 01:53 PM
catspaw49 07 Apr 99 - 02:02 PM
Sandy Paton 07 Apr 99 - 04:20 PM
Pete Peterson 08 Apr 99 - 10:48 AM
AlistairUK 08 Apr 99 - 10:58 AM
Rick Fielding 08 Apr 99 - 11:27 AM
Sandy Paton 08 Apr 99 - 01:23 PM
Barbara 08 Apr 99 - 03:10 PM
Sandy Paton 09 Apr 99 - 02:40 AM
Barbara 09 Apr 99 - 09:03 AM
skw@worldmusic.de 13 Apr 99 - 04:53 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:









Subject: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: zuch@ix.netcom.com
Date: 02 Apr 99 - 11:57 AM

I'm blanking on Pete Seeger's pseudonym during the McCarthy era blacklist days. Any help?

-- Arne


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 02 Apr 99 - 12:08 PM

Pete used "Pete Bowers", for a year or two, and said it was to keep his father's family from experiencing any more hassles than they were already getting.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: zuch@ix.netcom.com
Date: 02 Apr 99 - 12:15 PM

Thanks for the reply. Wasn't there another on (which appeaded on the record credits) for Pete and Lee Hays (e.g., who's listed for "If I Had A Hammer", and "Where Have All The Flowers Gone"?).

-- Arne


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 02 Apr 99 - 12:45 PM

You may be thinking of "Paul Campbell" which was the name they used to copyright a lot of traditional material recorded by the Weavers and others. From reading stuff that Pete has written I think he's quite embarrased that they were talked into this by their management. Others who did this but were not in the "good guys" circle, like the Kingston Trio, Brothers Four, Hiwaymen, etc. got a HUGE amount of flack from "Sing Out", Irwin Silber, and Pete himself. Apparently they were told that if they didn't claim sole authorship, someone else with impure motives WOULD! Must have been a hell of a dichotemy for Pete when all of a sudden Weavers' records started selling in the millions! By the way, the version of "Flowers" that most folks have sung for 45 years was partly written by Joe Hickerson.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From:
Date: 02 Apr 99 - 12:56 PM

Yes, it was "Paul Campbell" I was thinking of. Thanks once again for _all_ the information. It is all clear now.

Cheers,

-- Arne


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Apr 99 - 01:05 PM

Rick,

I think you called the "embarassment" right as Pete talked a little about this on a PBS TV show. It was done just a few years back, but I can't remember the name of the thing.

catspaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 02 Apr 99 - 01:22 PM

Hi Paw, feels like you dropped by for a visit. Heather's making coffee and Scottish biscuits for you right now.

Quite the dilemma though. I totally understand trying not to have the commercial forces mess with the music, but sometimes you just can't get untangled. A few years ago I sung "John Henry" on a CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) radio show, as well as one of my own songs. A few months later I got royalties for BOTH songs! I phoned them and they said I was listed as "author" of John Henry! I explained and their person said that if I removed my credit they would just assign it to the BANDLEADER on the show (who didn't even play during my appearance!) What to do? I kept the 50 bucks and probably bought a melmac Harmony banjo with it.

Have you read the story that Pete NEVER allowed concert cheques to be given to him directly, and made Toshi cover up his income tax form so he wouldn't see what he made that year before signing. Silly? Neurotic? All of the above, but even folkies sometimes get rich accidently.

Rick


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Apr 99 - 02:15 PM

Just a bit of cream in the coffee would be fine.

Pete Seeger gets both praise and criticism around hereat the 'Cat, but I really have always been a real admirerof the man. He has lived with such a passion for what he does and has retained the "common" touch that in some ways he wasn't born with. I find it hard to believe that he wantonly took credit or money for something that wasn't his, although that's happened. But deliberately and wantonly?........Maybe I just see him through rose colored glasses.

I met him once after a concert with Arlo and he stood there talking as though we were all old friends and the passion in his whole demeanor was something like an "aura." I don't want to sound like a schoolkid, but people in ANY walk of life that exude that passion mixed with "commonality" have always just impressed the hell out of me. Had the same feeling talking with Bobby Unser, the racer. And it's funny too, although I only "know" him here in cyber Mudcat village, but I'm willing to bet Sandy Paton has those same qualities.

Karen just came in with parts for the pantry shelving...asks who I'm talking to...Says Hi, and she was looking forward to the DC trip......Well my day is planned now that she's back (I don't know what's wrong with the old shelving,but...). Thank Heather for the Scottish biscuits and coffee.

catspaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Bruce O.
Date: 02 Apr 99 - 03:50 PM

Who were the 'Jessie Cavanaugh' and 'Albert Stanton' that made trivial changes in many folksongs, then copyrighted them, in 'Folk Sing', Hollis Music, Inc, 1959. I suspect it was pseudonym for the Weavers. Burns' "Auld Lange Syne" and Thomas Moore's 'Believe me if all the endearing young charms" and "The Minstrel Boy" were among these. If it was copyrighted, then I don't accept it as an authentic folksong. Something had to be changed from the way a traditional singer sang it, in order to copyright it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: MAG (inactive)
Date: 02 Apr 99 - 05:53 PM

Irwin Silber gave Pete Seeger and the Weavers incredible flack about copywriting their arrangements of songs, which the story was they did to keep someone else from doing what Kingston Trio from doing to Frank Proffit -- they never stopped anyone -- or tried-- or thought it was a good idea -- to keep anyone from singing the songs they helped popularize. au contraire. They said sing sing sing!

Irwin Silber's reappearance on the pages of Sing Out! intrigues me ...

Mary Ann


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Bruce O.
Date: 02 Apr 99 - 05:59 PM

As far as I'm concerned they screwed themselves. I don't accepte their copyrighted songs to be folksongs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: DonMeixner
Date: 02 Apr 99 - 08:22 PM

This is an interesting discussion now that it has turned toward who owns what intelectual property and who should get paid for it.

I frequently go through life blissfully misinformed and because I trust most folks I take this information for fact. I seem to recall a PBS show with Pete Seegar discussing this very topic in part.

My memory seems to say that at one time if an artist recorded an album of Public Domain stuff it was as if they were contract for hire. The record company could pay them a union wage which at the time was laughable and the record company collected the lions share of the return on the album. This would mean that no matter how many albums an artist might sell at a gig the money went back to In The Grove Records because the artists already where paid there $64.50 a gig and what ever the hourly rate was for the recording. Is this correct? Sandy? any of the business historians?

When a performer would copyright an arangement then a percentage of money from sales would go the copyright holder. So if The Weavers got a billboard hit of On Top of Old Smokey, Lyrics P. Domain, arrangement by Paul Campbell, at least The Weavers would get some financial credit for the work. Is this correct?

Ofcourse all this is also subject to how a recording contract is written and how hot your Perry Mason may be.

How did I do? Is any of this correct or am I completely off base.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 03 Apr 99 - 12:19 AM

I'm afraid this isn't an area I know much about. We've never asked any artist to claim a copyright on a traditional song, and, like Bruce, I've never been inclined to honor spurious claims to copyright on anything I can prove pre-existed the claim in print. I've been told, but forget the exact number, how many copyrights are on file at the Library of Congress for "Barbara Allen." It would stun you.

However, I have obtained copyrights for songs I know were actually written by the singer from whom I collected them. For example, Frank Proffitt (traditional singer from North Carolina) wrote "There Ain't a Thing for a Poor Man in This World" and another song called "Blackberry Wine." We copyrighted them for him.

However, I will confess to having copyrighted a large number of Sara Cleveland's unique versions of some remarkably lovely traditional ballads and songs. This we did for one of the reasons mentioned earlier in this thread: to keep someone else from claiming them! We put them all into a single folder and copyrighted them all in one swell foop as an "opus." Now, should someone decide to claim authorship, we can prove otherwise. But we would be delighted if some singers wanted to record some of her songs and give her credit as the source, and we do not intend to ask for royalties in such a case. The idea is merely to prevent anyone else collecting royalties to which they have no right. So I suppose we're as guilty of copyrighting traditional material as the big guys are. would that we had the strength of ten because our hearts are pure!

They may have been copyrighted, Bruce, but they are still genuine folksongs.

Sandy


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: DonMeixner
Date: 03 Apr 99 - 11:44 PM

Sandy,

I guess I still don't see a problem with copyrighting arrangements to trad songs as long as the words and original meolody are stated as being in the Public Domain.

Bob Dylan, revered as a saint by many is as guilty of this as many in the the last great Folk Song Scare of the 60's.

Don


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 04 Apr 99 - 03:27 AM

True enough, Don. Caroline and I once seriously considered doing an album of the originals of about a dozen songs that Dylan used without crediting the tradition from which he borrowed them. For instance, we'd record the Ritchie Family's "Nottamun Town," or "The Patriot Game" as we had heard Dominic Behan sing it in London, or Dick Maitland's "Leaving of Liverpool," without even mentioning Dylan's use of the melodies. Thought they might sound a bit familiar to all the Dylan fans out there and maybe start 'em in to wondering. But we were probably just being snotty. Anyway, we thought the better of it.

Sandy


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 04 Apr 99 - 10:44 PM

Never too late Sandy. Only 'catters who've read this thread would be in the know. Now you've got to have an album title, right? How 'bout "The Freewheelin' Sandy & Caroline," or "Highway 4 Revisited", "The Tunes They Are A Changin'" ...Oh Hell! I only bought four of his albums anyway! Poor guy though, with all his trillions he hasn't been able to walk and chew gum at the same time for about 15 years now. But when he was 21, and I was 14..He grabbed me hard!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: catspaw49
Date: 04 Apr 99 - 11:33 PM

How about "another side of Sandy & Caroline Paton"...It ought to make for an interesting album cover shot. And Rick, I know exactly what you mean about Dylan and for me a little bit of that is still in there...but God knows the man has become a parody of himself at times! I said in a thread the other day that on the thirty year thing, when he sang "It's alright Ma" I sat there amazed. I've known those words and been singing that song for years and I couldn't understand a damn thing he said!!!

catspaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Bruce O.
Date: 04 Apr 99 - 11:37 PM

I found "Robbin an's Gonny" in the Scarce Songs 1 file on my website in a manuscript in the Folger Shakespeare Library, and with their permission contributed it to the 'Folk Music Journal' of the EFDSS, where it was published in 1986. On the inside of the front cover of FMJ is the statement:

The Copyright of all articles, tunes and words of songs appearing in this JOURNAL belongs to the author or contributor supplying them and they must not be reproduced without permission. ....

I own a copyright! Ridiculous! I didn't write the song, or pay anyone else for the rights. It cost me nothing but some time and a little money for transportation, pencil and paper, and stamps to send it to London. It was not entered in the Stationers' Register in London, so was it never copyrighted until 1986! As far as I'm concerned it's Public Domain, and always has been.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: AlistairUK
Date: 05 Apr 99 - 11:52 AM

Hmmm Sandya and Caroline...doing the songs that Dylan ripped of and claimed as his own..I know a title for the album...."FIDELS". How's that?

Copyright shmopyright...if folk singers worried about copyright, and it was enforced, we'd all be in debtors gaol by now. But acknowledging a source is far more important than a legal title to a piece of music or song. But maybe copyrighting a traditional song is one way to preserve it in these modern times, then we would not lose our heritage in such a horrible fashion.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Arkie
Date: 05 Apr 99 - 12:15 PM

If a song with a copyright is not a folk song, why are singers who write their own songs called folksingers. Are they only folksingers if they do not copyright their songs.

As for Dylan bashing, or Seeger bashing for that matter, its all subjective. Thank goodness folks have a right to opinions in the Mudcat Cafe. I have a great deal of respect for Pete Seeger. Saw him in concert a couple of times and left with an even deeper passion for folk music. The Dylan "Greatest Hits, vol III" stays in my CD changer. He is one artist that my 21 year old daughter and I can enjoy together. Tried to turn her on to Harry Chapin too, but did not have as much luck there. Maybe in time....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: karen k
Date: 05 Apr 99 - 02:42 PM

Catspaw,

Back on 4/2 you wrote, "but I'm willing to bet that Sandy Paton has those same qualities."

You bet he does! You'd win that one hands down.

karen k


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 05 Apr 99 - 02:42 PM

Catspaw! Have you been digging around in old garage sale bins again? What do you know about "other sides of" the Paton folk? John (not Jon) knows, but he found some obscure old vinyl thing in a trash can somewhere, and was suckered into paying fifty cents for it. Most embarrassing!

Arkie: No one has more love or respect for Pete Seeger that I. I've never known a more honest or courageous person in my life. Without Pete, I suspect we would not have had the "folksong revival."

Bruce:Looks as though we've all been hoisted by our own petards now and then. I'm not familiar with the song you "own." Guess I'll have to go back again to your remarkable web site! Lord, lad, with all the obscure stuff you have there, you could "own" as much folk music as Oscar Brand and Alan Lomax combined!

Sandy


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Bruce O.
Date: 05 Apr 99 - 03:30 PM

On my homepage I stated that all songs and tunes on my website are believed to be in the public domain. I forgot that I copied "Jess MacFarlane" out of 'The Universal Songster', and published it in Folk Music Journal also, so I 'own' another copyright. I didn't send along a copy of its tune, "Ay Waukin O", so I don't own rights to that, and you and Caroline can continue to sing it, Sandy. As long as no one else has copyrighted it, that is.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 05 Apr 99 - 05:34 PM

Great! We'll give you credit, Bruce, just to avoid any malicious lawsuits instigated by the Folk Music Journal. (Big fat grin.)

I once looked through a book of Oscar Brand's and noticed at the bottom of every single page the notice that the song on that page had "new words and music" by Oscar Brand and was copyrighted. Funny thing, though, "Yankee Doodle" and "Little Brown Jug" looked exactly as I had learned them in my childhood. Maybe I was misremembering? (Another big fat grin!)

Sandy, the Doubting Thomas.

P.S. Karen K. is highly prejudiced, Catspaw, because every year we double her previous year's salary for the work she does in our festival sales booths. Thank goodness my senior accountant convinced me that doubling "zero" still comes out "zero." But don't tell Karen! She still thinks she's getting rich. (I flunked math, myself.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: DonMeixner
Date: 05 Apr 99 - 05:59 PM

Perhaps I am seeking greater clarification than i really need to know. But this thread really has some interesting dynamics to it.

When a song is newly written with fresh lyrics to an existing melody such as Ewan Macolls "Champion At Keepin' Them Rollin'" and "The Limerick Rake", Sean South From Garry Owen" and "Roddy Mc Corly" , " Ewan Macolls "Come My Little Son" and "Paddy West". How are these copyrights assigned? I don't believe anyone here in will doubt the great integrity and forthrightness of Ewan Macoll but if I accept some of the standards set in this thread, then Macoll was a thief and didn't deserve some of his royalties. Now I know that nobody is saying that directly but isn't that pretty much what has been said? Also isn't this line of thought denying the time honored tradition of recycling melodies for new words?

DonMeixner


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 06 Apr 99 - 12:27 AM

It's all pretty murky, Don. Yes, MacColl used a lot of traditional tunes, such as those you mention, but he was always ready and willing to acknowledge his sources. Certain tunes seem to be great "utility" tunes (i.e. "Tramps and Hawkers" which Bonnie Dobson also used for "Peter Emberley"), and when they are given a completely new set of lyrics, as was done by MacColl, the law apparently permits them to be copyrighted along with the words. We were probably wrong to be as critical of Dylan as we were, just as we were probably naive when we obtained the copyright only on the splendid melody James Waters wrote for the "Great Silkie," one of the Child ballads (the tune that everybody now knows, and the one that Pete Seeger used for the Turkish poem about the "Little Girl of Hiroshima," thinking it was traditional). Legally, I'm told, we would have been able to collect on the "Great Silkie" words, as well, but that, frankly, seemed chickenshit to me, and still does. My complaint was that Dylan was using the tunes without crediting his sources, and some of those sources had actually been copyrighted by others earlier (Jean Ritchie by virtue of her prior publication of "Nottamun Town" in Singing Family of the Cumberlands, for instance), although I'm informed now that he finally did admit that he was gathering tunes from here and there. I don't know what financial arrangements, if any, were ever made for their use. We all know that Guthrie did it all the time, too. But knowing this doesn't make me want to obtain copyrights on traditional folk material in order to exploit it.

Michael Cooney once urged people who were recording traditional songs to get their labels to send equivalent royalty sums to the Archive of Folk Culture as a contribution. A good idea that none of us could afford! I suspect that very few of you realize what a small number of records (read "CDs" now) labels like ours actually sell. Ain't none of us gettin' rich off of this stuff, that's for sure. (Dammit!)

Sandy


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Apr 99 - 04:30 PM

Fascinating exchange.

Now Sandy...I was thinking of "another side" strictly in the pictorial sense. You and Caroline in a John and Yoko kind of thing...front-back...interesting shots, might sell a lot of albums..................or not.

But I think KarenK speaks truth, and I hope to get the chance sometime to see that she's right for myself.

catspaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Arkie
Date: 06 Apr 99 - 05:41 PM

Just for the record, as if anyone cares, I did not mean to appear critical of the previous comments about Dylan and Seeger. They are both human and have their failings; I guess Seeger has a flaw or two. I certainly do not object to people speaking their opinions. I just wanted to put in a word for the other side. Both have brought a great deal of pleasure.

I have never been bothered by Dylan's appropriation of tunes. He took some good ones. Woody did it as well and others before him. I was somewhat surprised a few years ago, when I heard a recording of the Carter Family singing a gospel song with a tune quite similar to This Land Is Your Land. The proper thing would be to give credit when due, but some some songsters may have carried tunes in their heads and never knew where they came from.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: MAG (inactive)
Date: 06 Apr 99 - 08:25 PM

Just for the record, Ed Trickett does (or at least did) a whole set of traditional songs which Dylan used as a basis for his own songs. I was blown away by Dylan as a callow youth myself; his paraphrase -- I would not dignigy it as new lyrics -- of "Leaving of Liverpool" is a bit beyond the pale, I think, but these are all subjective.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From:
Date: 06 Apr 99 - 09:06 PM

I thought the tune for "This Land Is your Land" was based on "Little Darlin' Pal of Mine" ......wrong????


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 06 Apr 99 - 10:50 PM

There was an old hymn sung by the Carter Family:

Oh, my loving fathers,
When the world's on fire,
Don't you want God's bosom
To be your pillow?
Oh, hide me over
In the Rock of Ages,
Rock of Ages, cleft for me.

Continue with, "mother," "brother," "sister," etc., and sing it to the tune you know for "This Land..."

Which came first, this or "Little Darlin' Pal of Mine," I've no idea. Other Mudcatters might.

Sandy


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 12:59 AM

SANDY! Are you familiar with the Album cover that Catspaw mentioned a few threads ago? Inquiring minds want to know!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 01:11 AM

Hey..hey..hey... Keep it clean there now Rick!!!

catspaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 03:31 AM

Rick (and you, too, Catspaw):

I was afraid Catspaw was making an oblique reference to an obscure antique LP that "John (not Jon)" happened to mention in a personal note to me awhile back. I might as well confess. Forty years ago I made a record for Elektra that was titled The Many Sides of Sandy Paton. The cover photo, taken by George Pickow (Jean Ritchie's husband) was a clever multiple exposure of my radiant countenance in several different manifestations - Irishy, Scottishy, and more or less myself in the requisite plaid shirt of the 50s folkie. The album was made shortly after I had returned from a year in England and Scotland and contained much material that I had absorbed while collecting there. I am now awfully embarrassed by the singing. I sound like a painfully self-conscious Richard Dyer-Bennett with an accent as artificial and unconvincing as that hokey southern/Okie drawl assumed by a famous musical Minnesotan whom most of you admire tremendously. (Ain't my subtlety impressive?) Freddy Hellerman provided additional guitar on some of the cuts, and I was too innocent and, frankly, nervous to question his choice of chords, style, etc. I've tried for years to forget the entire episode.

Hence, I thought that ol' Catspaw was stirring up something he had found buried in his litterbox when he referred to "the other side," or whatever. The guy must just be psychic!

Sandy (older and, hopefully, wiser)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 04:00 AM

Sandy, is there some way you can get that photo posted online somewhere? This I gotta see!
After your description, I'm not sure I would want to hear the album. Somebody trying to sound like Dyer-Bennett would most likely be worse than the one he's trying to imitate - and I find Dyer-Bennett too pretentious for my tastes. A pretentious Sandy Paton? I don't wanna hear about it.
-Joe Offer-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 05:22 AM

I take it from that Sandy, that you aren't familiar with the John and Yoko album that has been suggested you and Caroline might replicate. Now if someone would only post a pic of IT.

As far as musical Minnesotan Dave Ray's southern accent, I kind of like it.

Rick (stirring the pot cause he can't sleep)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 06:21 AM

Well I WAS about to ask...so how much sleep did you get? By the time I finally wound down, I was able to sleep for a little over an hour before Karen got me up on her way to work so I could get the first kid up and off by 5:45. I get the next in about 5 minutes then another at 7:00. Number 4 I get up at 7:45 while I wait for #3's bus with him. The last has to be at school by 8:50 and I drive him. At that point I should come home and crash, but like the true dumbass that I am, I have a full day of appointments and shopping (hardware and groceries) and I told Karen I'd eat lunch with her. Worse, I have a semi-annual review for my 16 year old at 1:30 at the agency so Karen will be home first and I won't even be able to slip in a nap! Likely they'll discover my worn-out ass tonite as they did once last week...asleep here at the computer, half a page of n's (finger down when I zonked out) and drooling over the keyboard...not a pretty sight!!! Gotta' go do the next wake-up.

catspaw


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: DonMeixner
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 07:28 AM

YOU ARE THAT SANDY PATON!

Don

(Chuckles softly to self and logs off.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 01:10 PM

NOT ANY MORE! But still a damned tenor.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 01:53 PM

But a hell of a lot more of a "gutsy" tenor.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 02:02 PM

......and if you do the album cover I'm suggesting, you'd be one "nekkid" tenor!!!

Got home early ... now I can start on the tile in the pantry. What I really need is a nap!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 04:20 PM

Okay, Catspaw: I'll start on a strict diet right away. I ain't gonna show up like them two did without I lose at least sixty pounds.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Pete Peterson
Date: 08 Apr 99 - 10:48 AM

Truth to tell, I once had a copy of that album "many sides of Sandy Paton" and thought it was wonderful. But I haven't heard it for a long time and i looked for it last night and couldn't find it (I still have a wall full of vinyl) so it may have been loaned out & never returned. I think more highly of it than you do, Sandy! Hoping to see you and Caroline at NEFFA, I remain v respectfully your obdt servt PETE


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: AlistairUK
Date: 08 Apr 99 - 10:58 AM

OOO naked sandys...this should be cool.
I echo Joe's call..post the picture of the album cover, just scan that sucker in and get BillD to put it up.

erm...what's vinyl?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 08 Apr 99 - 11:27 AM

Sandy, re: "The many sides of..." You've opened a can(or an album) of worms, now haven't you? Or was it Folkways that put out "Worms of the World"? They did do "Frogs". That I know for sure.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 08 Apr 99 - 01:23 PM

I'd be willing to scan it (I do have an ancient copy), but my scanner's hooked up to the Macintosh, while my 'net connection is via this infernal Windows device. Hey, Bill D.: if you're dealing with a Mac, I could send you a disc or Zip 100 of a scan done with Adobe Photoshop. I'm too much of a novice to try anything more complicated than that. Any suggestions?

Cyberklutz


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Barbara
Date: 08 Apr 99 - 03:10 PM

Say, if you folks are scanning that in, and want to do a little cut and paste, I do still have a copy of the Two Virgins album. I could scan it and send it to you, Bill.
Sandy, do you remember the album Freewheeling was ripped off from? Seems to me it was an English couple, something like David and Shirley Collins, or some such. I used to have a tape of it, and it has the songs **in the same order** even as Freewheeling. Last time I looked, I couldn't find it.
Blessings,
Barbara


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 09 Apr 99 - 02:40 AM

No, Barbara, I don't know about the album! Was that Shirley Collins the same gal we sang with in London? She was with Alan Lomax while we were there. After Alan left to go back to the States, she used to come over frequently just to hear our American accents and sing American traditional songs with us. She made a lovely record for Folkways later on.

But I know nothing about the Freewheeling thing. Tell me about it!

Grandpa Paton


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: Barbara
Date: 09 Apr 99 - 09:03 AM

Well shoot! I heard rumors of this album for a while and then someone actually gave me a tape of it. Basic simple folk style, a guitar and an obscure English duo with some (obviously) forgettable names. It could have been THAT Shirley Collins. I WISH I could remember.

And then, about ten years ago, a friend made me a tape and I foolishly didn't label the tape, since it had the names on the box. Perhaps one day soon I will go through the cardboard box of unlabeled tapes until I find THAT one.

It's not going to be for a month or two, because I learned last night that the costumer for Wizard of Oz will need surgery April 20, and she asked me to take over for her (the play opens May 14). I'm feeling a little shell shocked. So I am likely to get scarse here, myself, next.

As I recall the album contains several Dominic Behan songs, including Patriot Game and Leaving of Liverpool. It also has Nottumun Town, and I forget what else. What else is on Freewheeling?

Blessings,
Barbara


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Pete Seeger's pseudonym
From: skw@worldmusic.de
Date: 13 Apr 99 - 04:53 AM

Could it be Shirley and Dolly Collins? I remember the sisters did at least one album together, Shirley (yes, THAT Shirley ...) singing and Dolly playing - dulcimer, I think, but I'm not too sure. I must admit I've never cared for Shirley's voice, so I haven't got any of the albums. - Susanne


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 17 December 12:11 PM EST

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.