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BS: Could there be multiple universes?
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bert Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:30 PM Well terminology seems to be one problem here. Universe conventionally means 'everything there is' But, that doesn't preclude there being many BIG BANGS within that everything. Every time that man has tried to define the Universe his answer has always come up WAY TOO SMALL. So I would say that Gulliver is absolutely correct in surmising that many big bangs have ocurred. Whether you call them parts of the one universe or the creation of separate universes is just a question of semantics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: katlaughing Date: 18 Apr 07 - 12:21 AM No, Bill. They will play it on one of THESE (Quicktime movie) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:36 AM I once read a book called 'The Nature of Reality' by David Deutsch. I think that this book was about the 'Many Worlds' explanation of quantum mechanics. I'm not too sure, though, because my brain shrivelled! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Donuel Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:17 AM There are no Big Bangs but rather a collision or,,,, an expansion after great compression inside a super massive black hole. in other words There are 2 possiblilities in my way of thinking in the creation of a universe... #1 a black hole creating a universe seperate from our own #2 a COLLISION of 2 universes (the intersection of 2 branes of existence) that have enough in common somehow to allow an interaction. or for kids under 4 years of age.... #3 god did it 6000 years ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:21 AM YES! kat! That was the one I was looking for when I started my post. "resonant chamber"....I just couldn't remember the name. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Donuel Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:30 AM kat that is gorgeous, where can I see and learn more about the works and creators? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Donuel Date: 18 Apr 07 - 12:00 PM OK found it, ordered it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Wolfgang Date: 18 Apr 07 - 05:37 PM "Sheila, come finish that universe experiment in the Petri dish and let's eat a pizza" "No, not yet, Marc, it's so interesting" "How's your universe going? Have you intelligent replicators? And how have you set the variables?" "I was going for a universe with not too much replicators. So I set the fine-structure variable to the usual value for semi-stable universes, the velocity of light close to ....(300,000 km/s in our units), the ... Yes, I got a slowly expanding universe with replicators, some of them even intelligent replicators" "Do they know of each other?" "No they are too far in space and time and they usually kill themselves off quickly once they find out about quark power. Here's one of them orbiting a light source. They call their orbiting mass Earth and they consider me as omnipotent, all-knowing and benevolent. The buggers think I interfere in their daily doings instead of just watching and protocolling" "All-knowing, my arse. If we were that we wouldn't have to worry about the end of term physichemistry of universes examination. And benevolent, haha, kill them off now, Sheila, and lets go. You have done more than enough for this day's assignement. I stopped my experiment just after one bunch of intelligent replicators had killed off all other intelligent replicators in their light source conglomeration. I had chosen the values to give rise to many replicators. It is so much fun to see them fight." "OK, Marc, I come with you for a pizza, but I let the experiment run until we come back." "Don't be sentimental, Sheila." "I'm not, I'm just curious. Those intelligent replicators on the Earth will when we come back either have killed themselves or colonised at least their local light point conglomeration. It's a toss-up." "OK, I bet on extermination before we even order the pizza. We can check later on the historical display" "Fine, I bet on colonisation. The loser pays the pizzas." "Will we have to make universes again next week?" "Yes, but the task is to make the more quickly pulsating ones. Boring, no replicators to watch." "Yeah, but don't you like the quickly successing big explosions? Like a firework." "Marc, do you think there could be intelligent replicators of several multiversers size watching us in their Petri dishes and debating killing us off before or after the pizza?" "Don't be silly, Sheila". Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 18 Apr 07 - 05:48 PM Donuel...I hope you found the full-length version of "resonant chambers" and its kin on YouTube. They are ALL awesome! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: John O'L Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:16 PM There can't have been a Big Bang. Sound requires atmosphere. It must have been a Big Silence, or BS. (The music section is of course a seperate universe.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: nutty Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:24 PM If we remember that ever star in the sky is the equivalent of our Sun and around every star is the equivalent of our planets, then its odds on that out there somewhere is an equivalent universe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:30 PM ummmm..sorry, nutty, I don't see the logic. "universe" is mostly used to mean 'everything'...stars & planets are just a part of everything. Separate universes are mostly the result of attempts to make mathematical equations balance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: nutty Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:36 PM "universe" is mostly used to mean 'everything' but 'everything' within our comprehension, Bill. We have to accept that we know so little at present that such things are possible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Donuel Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:48 PM Wolfgang, that is one of the best renderings of that kind of theme. Better than the Shatner episode on Star Drek when they wer up against an all powerful baby. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: BK Lick Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:52 PM pity this busy monster,manunkind, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:08 PM "..but 'everything' within our comprehension, Bill." well...speculating about what might be beyond our comprehension can be interesting, but that doesn't say much about its possibility. Over & over many people make a kind of jump - from giving a concept a name to acting as though it acquires some sort of reality from the naming. Our language enables our imagination in some strange ways.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: catspaw49 Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:08 PM Say, is resonant chamber another word for ass? And if it is, shouldn't Big Bang be better stated as Big Poot? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Gulliver Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:33 PM I did a bit of googling on this and there are a lot of theories out there--enough to keep me reading until the end of the week at least--and lots of them deal with multiverses, etc. Which got me to thinking about our own universe collapsing on itself in a few gazillion years. Shouldn't we get off our butts and do something about this? What can we do to save the universe? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: catspaw49 Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:35 PM Fart a lot............ Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Peace Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:36 PM Add mass. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Donuel Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:23 PM No collapse in this universe. Aunti Gravity will keep our family of galaxys movin on out until the last cold spark sputters into darkness. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:34 PM doesn't everyome know the old joke about the elderly lady at the astronomy lecture? "...Oh, thank goodness! I thought you said 10 MILLION years!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Don Firth Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:06 PM Possibility (there are serious scientists who consider it a likelihood): A massive star imploded into a black hole. The result was a Big Bang and another universe began. Us. Here. And in our universe, every time a massive star implodes into a black hole, another universe starts. And they, in turn. . . . And, of course, the universe from which our universe sprang was created the same way. Big fleas have little fleasAnd then there is the little matter of eleven dimensions. They're right here, but we're able to perceive only three, and have a sense of the fourth. All of which boils down to this: hard-headed "realists" shouldn't necessarily be so phlegmatic about such things as paranormal phenomena. They might be "leakage" from other dimensions. (Cue Twilight Zone theme.) Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Amos Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:48 PM It is also interesting to consider that all scale is a function of viewpoint, and imagining a very very huge universe in which to be is comforting to a species of small bipeds who can't even get off one third-rate planet. But it als means that space and its boundaries may be nothing more than an artifact of looking out. If so then the notion of " universe" as "everything" is just an anthrocentric conceit. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:55 PM "Small fleas have larger fleas Beneath their feet to go on; And these in turn have larger still; And larger still, and so on." A guy I knew 40 years ago...(who never even went to college, but knew I was) came up to me one day with this "what if all the atoms are really little planets?...and we in turn are just atoms in someone else's universe?" It's SUCH an easy thing to toss about...and often good fun. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: nutty Date: 19 Apr 07 - 12:59 AM Over & over many people make a kind of jump - from giving a concept a name to acting as though it acquires some sort of reality from the naming. That's kind of like what happened in religion isn't it, Bill. Didn't God/Allah acquire substance the same way?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: freda underhill Date: 19 Apr 07 - 09:28 AM There are truly parallel universes - I just posted quite a long post to this thread and it disappeared to.. somewhere! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: freda underhill Date: 19 Apr 07 - 09:38 AM so, here we go again! excerpts from conversations between Professor Paul Davies and Phillip Adams. (they've been discussing quantum physics, and move on to parallel universes.. Paul: That's right, but the question is, are all these possibilities really there? Are they co-existing in parallel? Or is there only one reality, one universe, and if so, how does it get selected from the myriad realities on offer? Phillip: Parallel universes — a mind-boggling notion. Are you suggesting that there are universes in which Tony Blair lost the last British general election? Paul: That's right, yes. According to the theory — if you subscribe to this particular many-universes interpretation (which many of my senior colleagues do, I might say) — these contending realities are really there. In other words, quantum physics tells us that there isn't one universe — there is an infinity of them. All of the different possibilities, all of the things that are possible at the atomic level and above, are really happening somewhere. Not over here or over there in our space and time, but in some parallel reality. Phillip: Are there Luddites who take an alternative view to this, who are hostile to this interpretation of quantum mechanics? Paul: Yes, there are. I would say that during my career there's been a decisive shift towards the many-universes view of interpreting quantum mechanics. Possibly a majority of the senior figures working in this area of theoretical physics now would regard themselves as backing the many-universes theory... Phillip: I'm very grateful that we don't notice bizarre quantum effects in daily life, Paul.…. But I've got a terrible feeling that another interview is being conducted in an identical room where you're taking a completely different position. Paul: Yes, that is exactly right according to the many-universes view. Not only are there all these different realities, but many of them are inhabited by beings who are almost carbon copies of ourselves. So there will indeed be another universe somewhere with a Paul Davies and Phillip Adams having a slightly different — even infinitesimally different — conversation! Phillip: This raises the issue of the way the human mind is entangled in the ultimate reality of the cosmos, because you are now dealing with our perceptions of it. Paul: Indeed. That's actually the whole point. The really disturbing thing about quantum physics is that it does seem in some way to involve the observer. It entangles the observer and the observed in a very intimate way. You see, in the old-fashioned classical physics, the observer was just there for the ride. But when it comes to quantum physics the situation is dramatically different. ..quantum phenomena enfold or entangle the observer with the observed in a manner that simply can't be untangled. This entanglement seems to bring something like 'mind', something like 'observer', into nature in a very intimate way. Now that is anathema to most scientists, who struggle to keep mind and subjectivity out. The question is how to interpret the rules of quantum mechanics when applied to the entire cosmos. If you are one of those people who believes that the observer matters, then you have a problem with quantum cosmology, because if you apply quantum physics to the whole universe you can't get outside the universe to observe it. The universe is everything that there is. There are no external observers, by definition. The many-universes people are okay on this point because they can just assume that all possible universes that can exist get created, and then act out their alternative histories in parallel. So, for example, just as we see a universe like ours which is expanding from some initial singularity to an uncertain future, well there would be another universe which has not expanded so far as ours and would already be collapsing. There would be yet another that would be expanding much faster, and would already be nearly devoid of matter because the galaxies would have flown very far apart. All of these universes are there together. full discussion here.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Amos Date: 19 Apr 07 - 10:23 AM But when it comes to quantum physics the situation is dramatically different. ..quantum phenomena enfold or entangle the observer with the observed in a manner that simply can't be untangled. This entanglement seems to bring something like 'mind', something like 'observer', into nature in a very intimate way. Now that is anathema to most scientists, who struggle to keep mind and subjectivity out. Aye, there's the rub. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 19 Apr 07 - 10:56 AM "...a kind of jump - from giving a concept a name to acting as though it acquires some sort of reality from the naming. "That's kind of like what happened in religion isn't it, Bill. Didn't God/Allah acquire substance the same way??" ...might be....I suspect something like that. Enormously complex cultural/personal process based on 'real' experiences with creative interpretations. Honest people making the best guess they can to account for phemomena of interest...like death and thunder and the sun & moon and dreams. But an honest guess is not necessarily the correct guess....and once the DIShonest get ahold of it, strange things can happen. It is not a matter of 'proving' that those guesses were wrong...in fact, some of them 'might' be right...but rather, the burden of proof is on those who choose to adopt the results of the guesses AS truth. I just choose not to buy into a belief system developed that way without better documentation.....kinda stubborn that way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Donuel Date: 19 Apr 07 - 11:08 AM "Over & over many people make a kind of jump - from giving a concept a name to acting as though it acquires some sort of reality " Bill D Yeah Bill its called a hypothesis. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Don Firth Date: 19 Apr 07 - 10:41 PM ". . . what if all the atoms are really little planets?...and we in turn are just atoms in someone else's universe?" Fun concept, Bill. Wa-a-a-ay back, I bought a book entitled Adventures in Time and Space ed. Raymond J. Healy & J. Francis McComas (Random House, Aug '46, $3.00, 997pp.). One of the stories it contained was "He Who Shrank," by Henry Hasse (Amazing, Aug. '36), in which the protagonist is an unwilling participant in an experiment that caused him to shrink, and continue shrinking. He would fall into matter (piece of paper on a desk), emerge as a gigantic being in a "universe," diminish in size until he floated down onto an electron (orbiting its nucleus like a planet orbiting a star), become "normal size" for the beings there, have lots of adventures, then dwindle and vanish, and the whole process would happen again as he entered layer after layer of smallness. Spoiler Alert: the man who quotes the "shrinker's" narration is a science fiction writer—here on Earth. The shrinker finishes his narration—up to that point—as he diminishes and disappears into a sheet of typing paper. Just passing through on his way to. . . . I'm guessing that the story was the basis of the movie "The Incredible Shrinking Man," although the screenplay—and the novel—are credited to Richard Matheson. Good special effects for a 1950s movie, but the scope of the short story was much more sweeping and awe-inspiring. Remake scheduled to come out in July, 2008. There was also a novel on the same theme: The Girl in the Atom. Not great. The anthology contained some of the classic classic science fiction stories from the pulp SF magazines in the 1930s. Several of them emerged later on in longer form—movies. At least the movies were based on the short stories. One was "Who Goes There" by Don A. Stuart (Astounding, Aug. '38) on which the movie "The Thing" was based. James Arness (later, Matt Dillon of "Gunsmoke") was The Thing. But the "thing" in the short story was far more scary. Alien. Deadly. And it could assume any shape. Could have been the guy sitting next to you and you wouldn't know it until too late. Antarctic setting. They had to get the thing before it occured to it to surn into a seagull and fly away North. Another was "Farewell to the Master" by Harry Bates (Astounding Oct '40). This was the germ of the movie "The Day the Earth Stood Still." The story concludes with a man carrying a dead alien humanoid to a parked spaceship with a huge robot standing motionless beside it. The man say, "I'm sorry about your master." To which the robot intones, "You are mistaken. I am the master." The movie was considerable expanded, with an anti-war, anti-violence theme. Classic film. The anthology includes Isaac Asimov's "Nightfall" (Astounding Sep. '41) and "Black Destroyer" by A. E. Van Vogt (Astounding Jul '39). And a couple dozen others of comparable quality and vintage. One of the best $3.00 investments I ever made. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: John O'L Date: 19 Apr 07 - 11:07 PM "If you are one of those people who believes that the observer matters, then you have a problem with quantum cosmology, because if you apply quantum physics to the whole universe you can't get outside the universe to observe it." Couldn't any (or every) person in any or every universe be regarded as an observer? Why the need to get out of it? Or does "the observer" mean something different in quantumspeak? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: GUEST,jaminjo Date: 22 May 07 - 12:05 PM Yes No Yes No Yes No Yes No Yes No Yes No Yes No Yes No Yes No Yes No Yes Yes YES YeS..etc |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 22 May 07 - 06:23 PM very....ummmm...enlightening. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Donuel Date: 23 May 07 - 09:24 AM Don Firth, I had some leakage yesterday. I was in a hypnogogic reverie when I realized that a friend of mine was feeling worried about his elderly father inlaw being ill. Having no earthly way to explain how I knew this, my inclination to call and give him my condolences and good wishes for his father in law was overpowered by my past experiences of telling people things I should not know anything about and creating suspicion and uneasiness. He stopped by the next day and said his father in law was ill, but also his dad and mom were also hospitalized. Time information "leakage" is common. The 9 year old MIT egg experiment is proof. Gaining some imperical way of means of understanding it may come from a breakthrough in cosmology. Such information in the hands of organized religion or warring nations is discomforting. Do we want to know? I believe most people do not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Amos Date: 23 May 07 - 10:01 AM Most people, I think, have built their palisades form against such abilities because they have had too much random and difficult experience when "open". Knowing is a non-local occurence which gets put into localized bottles in order to appear sanitized. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh Date: 23 May 07 - 10:42 AM Does anyone else think that the current trend for Scientists to be chatting about this kind of "multiple universe" theory - and getting research grants to do it - is the modern equivalent of Mediaeval Theologians disputing about how many wings angels had; or dancing on pinheads, of course? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: MMario Date: 23 May 07 - 10:49 AM no - because there has been some serious mathematical analysis of various phenomenon that fit into the multiverse theories. But whether or not there is or will be "proof" - who knows. Who ever thought there'd be imaging microscopes that could resolve detials smaller then the wavelength of visible light? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Amos Date: 23 May 07 - 04:44 PM Very different kinda thing; they are working from hard facts and extrapolating using proven mathematics, not philosphical imponderables. Important differentiation. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: GUEST Date: 23 May 07 - 08:06 PM a2xt3 ------------ = nxt/mn + >d=fxl/2 L c24352 (hd4) NOPE! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: gnu Date: 24 May 07 - 06:53 AM Yes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: gnu Date: 24 May 07 - 06:53 AM No. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: gnu Date: 24 May 07 - 06:53 AM Maybe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: MMario Date: 24 May 07 - 08:35 AM and only on alternate tuesdays during months with an "r" in them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Amos Date: 24 May 07 - 10:06 AM Ambiguity is not the answer. I think. But it might be the question. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Bill D Date: 24 May 07 - 12:30 PM Here's how you get there (I think Google is working on a map) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Donuel Date: 24 May 07 - 02:25 PM Bill thats a drawing of a concept of the emergence of quanta at the quantum level oppoing into our reality and its loopy ride back to where it came from. There are so many different perspectives one can imagine to depict the quantum chaos ride between here and there. for example the camera of the mind could look at only the barrier, or only one side or both. I have made so many computer generated pictures of this phenomena I bet I got it right at least once. I use chaos and fractals in polar distortion filters and wave generators in all sorts of combinations. I keep the ones that offer an ineffable beauty. be it modern art of doodling the quantum universe it is visually appealing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Richard Bridge Date: 24 May 07 - 06:10 PM Since quantisation is a construct, not reality, it follows that there is no reason to hypothesise mutiple reality. THe question cofuses the analytica tool and the actuality. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Could there be multiple universes? From: Richard Bridge Date: 24 May 07 - 06:11 PM 100 |
