BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult

Subject: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 05:56 PM

Something else has bothered me about this Imus thing, this time about calling a journalist a cleaning lady. It should not be so in this land called America that we can insult someone by calling them a job title. We should all respect each and every worker, and I would say in particular those who do the less monetarily rewarding jobs, that people should just go huh?/?? or eh??? if you are in Canada...where is the insult in calling someone that. Now I realize he was trying to insult her and I realize she went to a lot of college and put a lot of work into her profession and there are historical antecedants here etc...But it should be the same as calling someone a doctor or electrician or something...we need to respect all honest work and those who do it, either out of preference for that type of work, or circumstances that don't give them many choices. If someone called me a cleaning lady, which they wouldn't because I am not gifted in that area, I would say, "if indeed I were one, I would be quite proud of my skills and my contribution to medical facilities, business facilities, families etc." It is a very odd insult to me,because it is something people should be proud of, as they should be proud of whatever they do. mg

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:03 PM

People from all jobs can be in the Queen's Honours List. I agree that we should all be proud of what we do.

It's like a lot of things now, somebody gets an idea about what is right or wrong to say and then we're all frightened to say it in case we offend someone.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Rowan
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:05 PM

If my destiny is to be a beggar I must try as hard as possible to be the best I can.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Bert
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:06 PM

Right on the mark, mg.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: skipy
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:07 PM

Brave new world! A Hux.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:11 PM

Right now, I would consider it a huge embarrassment if someone called me "the President" he has maligned that office so much.

I agree with you, Mary, there is honour in any honest day's work. Out here, where there are so many immigrants from Mexico, many people are prejudiced towards them and the work which they do; it is a sad thing and totally unfair.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:12 PM

You're right, mg, it should not be regarded as an insult.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:13 PM

I was once a 'cleaning lady'... just which I'd had as much impact as the 'cleaning woman' in 'Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid' with Steve Martin.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:14 PM

The term "shock jock" is a pretty vicious insult.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:17 PM

Anyone who would use "cleaning lady" as an insult is clearly an ass. Now who was this, again?

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:22 PM

You have to know a lot about health and safety to be a cleaner - such as knowing about all the chemicals and how to safely use them.

Also, I remember reading an article a few years ago about people in London in high powered jobs, who just wanted to get away from all the stress etc., becoming cleaners. They were very happy doing that job, felt it was worthwhile and felt valued.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:31 PM

Look, it's capitalism, stupid.

"Cleaning Lady" = Poor.

It's what comes of not having a proper class system.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:35 PM

Hmmm - a "proper" class system ... now what would that look like, Richard?

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:35 PM

There are many who would say that comparing a journalist to anyone who does an HONEST job, is wildy flattering to the journalist.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Sorcha
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:38 PM

Richard, I sincerely hope that was tongue in cheek, LOL!
Hey, I cook pizza (and clean) for US minimum wage, $5.15/hr. and I love it. Nothing to bring home, no work, no baggage, and I'm satisfied if my customers and my Bosses are satisfied.

Hell, I've even been donating an hour or 2 a day to get the place whipped into shape before the Inspector comes knocking. I've even started a 'movement' among the other help to clean stuff when they aren't busy.

How much more can you ask for?

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 06:42 PM

Sorcha - If you're ever in the neighbourhood and have some time on your hands, um, do you think you might like to stop by? I think the Inspector has me on his list ...

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 07:03 PM

Class = accent, and having been to a proper school

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: DebC
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 07:15 PM

The person that mg is referring to is Gwen Ifil who wrote a wonderful essay in the NYT about the Imus affair here

Some people really know how to say what they want to say and she certainly has the talent for it.

Deb
www.DebraCowan.com

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 07:37 PM

I've always liked Gwen Ifil until I saw her last weekend on Meet the Press with Tim Russert. I thought she came off as totally racist herself.

          You could tell she was really pissed about being called "the cleaning lady," though. And that's the way she came off--as a totally pissed-off cleaning lady. I think she thought she was getting even, but it did more damage to her than to Imus.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Peace
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 07:39 PM

My grandmother ended he days as a cleaning lady. I loved her very much.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 07:47 PM

"Class = accent, and having been to a proper school"

Now, cruel experience has taught me that I can be a little slow on the uptake here, so, before I spit my tea all over my keyboard, please tell me you're being ironic, speaking tongue-in-cheek, playing devil's advocate, taking the mickey or piss out of me, striking a pose, just joshin', shooting a line of bull, having or leading me on, pulling my leg, yanking my chain, and/or stringing me a line.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 07:54 PM

Well, it ***is*** bad enough that there are folks out there doing whatever it takes to put some bread on the table for their families but ***worse*** to think that some folks get their jollies degradin' these folks...

It is not only an insult but is shamefull to the core...

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Willie-O
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:22 PM

"The term "shock jock" is a pretty vicious insult."

Are you serious? It is applied to people who make very big bucks by insulting other people on the airwaves--and the bar seems to be continually raised as to how nasty the insults can be.   "Shock jock" seems a pretty tame description to me. "Cretinous assholes with microphones" comes closer.


W-O

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 09:59 PM

Just checked the yellow pages here in western Canada. No cleaning ladies but a lot of maids. I use a "Mollymaid" myself.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 10:50 PM

I used to clean in a hospital. Scrubbed surgery, labor and delivery, all sorts of things. Cleaned the toilets, too. Did such a good job that once my supervisor brought the hospital administrator down to see it.

Never thought of it as demeaning to me or any of those I worked with.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Bert
Date: 17 Apr 07 - 11:21 PM

This thread makes me proud to be a Mudcatter.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Mo the caller
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 03:15 AM

"Cleaning lady" is a very genteel, namby pamby American insult compared to the British "char woman".

I do agree that every job should have the the same respect (and that dirty, unpleasant jobs should not be worst paid), but that's not how it is.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: GUEST,Black Hawk
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:29 AM

I used to joke with one of our cleaning staff when she said something I disagreed with that she was 'only a cleaning lady'.
She sometimes used the phrase herself in the same manner.

She also knew my real feelings were that I do not think I could bring myself to carry out her tasks.

I work for an international engineering firm & we hire/fire contract labour as workload demands. On a large plant outage for repairs/inspection, the state of the messrooms, toilets etc. from 600-900 manual labourers has to be seen/smelt to be believed. I would balk at the sight of it but she (and others) cleaned these places without a second thought.
At a works dance, when shunned by other 'higher rank' individuals we invited her & spouse to sit at our table.
Cleaning ladies have my utmost respect & that journalist should feel flattered rather than insulted!!

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:06 AM

I believe that comments about the dignity of the cleaning woman job are missing the point of Imus' put down of Gwen Ifill.

Here's the cultural context of that diss, as I see it:

You will note that shock jock Don Imus didn't make a general statement putting down all females who work as cleaning women.

I believe that it is also significant that Imus also didn't make a blanket comment that all Black female journalists are "cleaning women". For example, Imus didn't say that CNN's light skinned, slender {naurally} straight haired African American journalist/anchor woman Suzanne Malveau was a "cleaning woman who covered the White House".

Imus specifically referred to the dark brown skinned, full figured {naturally} nappy headed PBS journalist/anchor woman Gwen Ifill
as "the cleaning lady who covers the White House".

In doing so, Imus was using coded language to comment on the fact that it's a cultural disconnect to see women who look like Gwen Ifill in such a respected role as being a journalist who covers the White House. Imus may have also been trying to put Ifill {back} in her place.

In that recent radio broadcast which caused him to be fired, Imus "coon talk" in referring to Black members of Rutgers' female basketball team as "nappy headed hos" and "jigabos" and "grizzles". I've seen photos of these women and all of them are dark brown skinned. But in that same now infamous radio broadcast, Imus and his producer described the Black women on the championship winning Tennessee women basketball team as cute. I've never seen photos of these women, but I betcha that at least some of them are lighter skinned than the women who are on the Rutger's team.

Imus' comments dissing Gwen Ifill are rooted in the same racism as his comments dissing the physical appearances of Black members of Rutger's women's basketball team while speaking favorable of the physical appearance of Black members of Tennesse women's basketall team. Each of these comments come from the racist imagery and expectations of Black people that permeate American print, movie, and television mass media.

It may be instructive for folks here to read Don Bogle's 1992 book Toms, Coons. Bucks, and Mammies.. Here's an excerpt from a review of that book:

"The title of the book indicates the different mythic types that have been used in mainstream U.S. films to depict black people, and which are easily mistaken as being aspects of real black experience. Briefly the different types can be described as follows:
Toms, a good negro character who submissively does everything expected of them, however degrading, and never turns on white people. Often they end up as saintly role models.

Coons, are a source of amusement because they are complete buffoons. There are two variants of this type; 1, the pickaninny being a black child whose eyes pop and plays about in a diverting manner; 2, the uncle remus, who is as saintly as the tom type, but he tends to be quaint, naive and comic in his philosophical assertions. As Bogle notes: 'The pure coons emerged as no-account niggers, those unreliable, crazy, lazy, subhuman creatures good for nothing more than eating watermelons, stealing chickens, shooting crap, or butchering the English language.'

Mulattoes, are usually tragic fair-skinned women who live as a white person, but have the secret of black blood in their veins. It is ironic that such characters were usually played by white actresses so that there were no problems for the white audiences' identification with her traumas.

Mammies, are similar to the coons, but she is fiercely independent in her domestic domain. A good example of this role is in Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House (1948). It is the mammy (Louise Beavers) who gives Mr. Blandings (Cary Grant) the advertising slogan that saves his job, house and family, and all she gets is a $10 rise!

Bucks, constitute the brutal black man out to cause havoc. Often the savage and violent character is also over-sexed and eager to get more than his hands on white women."

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:08 AM

Fwiw, in my last post I found at least one sentence that needs correction:

In that recent radio broadcast which caused him to be fired, Imus used "coon talk" to refer to Black members of Rutgers' female basketball team as "nappy headed hos" and "jigabos" and "grizzles".

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:10 AM

But on Meet the Press, Gwen Ifil herself said that what really got the plug pulled on the show were all the middle management people of color who complained to their bosses and board members, and managed to carry the day for insider corporate opinion.
                   She went on to say that what was different now than when Imus insulted her ten years ago was, "Ten years ago those people weren't there."

                   All of that goes to show that affirmative action has done its thing. It's time to end it now. White kids should no longer have to ride in the back of the bus when it comes to college enrollment and job applications.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: frogprince
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:12 AM

"Bucks, constitute the brutal black man out to cause havoc"

I'm a northerner, from Minnesota; I had never heard anyone I know use the term "black buck", or "buck" meaning a black person. I've heard it quite a bit for young male American Indians. I don't mean in any way to be saying "southerners racist/northerner not". I just mention that specific point about language to preface the following:

A few years ago, I picked up the crossword in the Flint, Michigan newspaper. One of the clues was, "a black buck". I actually missed the implication completely, and asked myself "a black buck of what kind of animal?". I picked up my wife's crossword dictionary, and found an answer that fit, apparently an archaic term for a young black man that I have never heard of before or since. I strongly suspect it was primarily slave-market terminology. I've kicked myself repeatedly since because I didn't register a complaint about the appearance of that crap in a modern newspaper.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Scoville
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:41 AM

Could it have been a blackbuck antelope? This is not a native North American animal but it is raised in captivity here to a limited extent; I think the name comes from the dark coloring + "buck" meaning a male deer-type animal. One of our clients at my first vet tech job raised them.

I don't hear "cleaning lady" used regularly as a colloquial insult here but in Texas it sometimes carries the implication that the person in question is Latina and probably here illegally. It's not a given, though; most often it just means that that's what she does for a living; it depends a lot on the context. I know plenty of legal immigrants and native-born ladies who clean and it's a perfectly respectable job. I'm sure Imus has cleaning ladies. I hope they all quit and make him scrub his own toilets for awhile. With his tongue, ideally.

I used the be a dishwasher myself. Nothing wrong with that job, either.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:49 AM

I don't think 'cleaning lady' is a standard insult anywhere, but in the context Imus used it, it was an insult.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:56 AM

Personally, I like Gwen Ifil, but I don't think it would have been an insult if she didn'l kind of look like Aunt Jamima.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:29 AM

At last, the cheap humour part of the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 12:27 PM

Humour ... ? Was that supposed to be humour? Is the idea of someone looing like Aunt Jemima supposed to be funny? Help me out here, people ...

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 12:34 PM

It's humour written by an inbred idiot with two eyes on one side of his nose. Maybe not humour as you know it, but it serves as such for him.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 12:40 PM

"Is the idea of someone looking like Aunt Jemima supposed to be funny?"

          There is nothing funny about the likeness, it was just that it was more of a cutting insult from Imus to say what he said about Gwen Ifil. If he said the same thing about Britney Spears it wouldn't make sense.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 01:27 PM

Okay, so basically what Azizi was saing ... but I think Aunt Jemima is best left out of the equation ...

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 01:40 PM

Everyone posting on this thread is a racist.
That is perfectly OK

The Imus incident allows the topic of racism to surface in a national dialog.

Even if you have not written anything resembling a racist attitude or opinion, if you are white in this country you have had certain silent allowances and lattitudes that black people are not priviledged to have.

For that reason alone, those of us who do not consider ourselves racist are still compliant in racism even when we are not aware of it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 02:30 PM

Next time you are in the grocery store, look at the modern Aunt Jemima on the pancake mix of that name (it won (2006) the Chefs Best taste award. Excellent for waffles, too. She also is pictured on Aunt Jemima syrup. Quaker Oats Products.

The picture reminds me of Gwen Ifel.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 02:31 PM

The president of Iran reminds me of Bush

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 06:21 PM

There's a lot of Black women who look like the drawing of Aunt Jemima that is on the pancake mix.

And, with a multicultural approach to physical beauty, these full figured dark skinned Black women can be considered just as beautiful as slender White women with blond hair.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:57 PM

Gwen Ifill

Current Aunt Jemima and here's another on corn meal.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:26 PM

And they're both fine looking women. I guess I must have that "multicultural approach to physical beauty", because I'd say so is this one.

And this one too, even if her dental work isn't up to modern standards.

(Here's after a trip to the dentist).

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:36 PM

Shit woman ....
You either make the news

Or...youse read the news.

Get Over It ...or get therapy!

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:40 PM

Um ... that's an interesting comment, GUEST ...

Okay, let's move on. Who's next?

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: GUEST,XXX
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:49 PM

In necessity the "NEWS" was always available.

The standard of USA preference Sear's Roebuck Catalogue was usually, the article at hand.

Subject: RE: BS: 'cleaning lady' as insult
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:50 PM

Fwiw, here's some info on how people throughout the ages and in different cultures have considered gap teeth:

"...Over the years I've heard different stories and tales about this trait: A gap in your teeth is the sign of Venus - the goddess of love! I've been told. Being gap-toothed was regarded as a sign of a strongly-sexed nature in the Middle Ages as told in The Wife of Bath's Prologue and Tale from "The Canterbury Tales" by Geoffrey Chaucer. In some African tribes having a gap in your front teeth was a sign of wisdom and in France they call it "les dents du bonheur" (teeth of happiness)! There was even a film made by Les Blank in 1987 called Gap-Toothed Women, which explores different connotations of gap-teeth such as a beauty mark or as a sign of an amorous nature.

I've also heard that it's a sign of wealth, now, I don't know about that one! but, perhaps if we could ask some well known and not so well known gap-toothed celebrities they would agree."

http://www.luckygap.co.uk/
{a website for folks with gaps in their front teeth}

-snip-

The good thing about not using only one standard of physical beauty is that folks don't have to agree on what constitutes beauty.