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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Anybody know 'Old Rosin the Bow'? From: GUEST,Joe Date: 05 Sep 10 - 09:54 AM I first learned the tune as a song at school in the late 80's, as an australian folk song 'bottany bay', which I think is the same tune as rosin the bow, just a faster more jig like tempo. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Lighter Date: 17 Sep 19 - 07:00 PM Re the late, great Frank Taplin ("Q")'s report on "Old Moll Roe" above (2003), Alan Lomax recorded a stanza and refrain under the title "I Met Miss Monroe in the Morning" from a lumberjack at Round Lake, Mich., in 1938: https://www.loc.gov/item/afc1939007_afs02322b/ The tune he uses is neither "Rosin the Beau" or "Tarpaulin Jacket." It's closer, in fact, to that associated with "Four Old Whores from Baltimore." Rudyard Kipling, in The Light That Failed (1891): 'What shall I sing?' said [Dick], turning in the chair. 'Moll Roe in the morning,' said Torpenhow, at a venture. 'No,' said Dick, sharply....The old chanty whereof he, among a very few, possessed all the words, was not a pretty one, but Dick had heard it many times before, without wincing." Kipling also wrote (in a letter,) "“The noble tune of ‘I met Moll Roe in the morning’. The original words thereof are long-shore bawd pure and simple but the air is a cyclone as I once heard it. There’s a hymn tune that fits it as well and there are about twenty tunes to Moll Roe." It must have been widely known among men. There's a stanza in the American "Immortalia" (1927). |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Lighter Date: 17 Sep 19 - 07:09 PM As early as 1797 (long before the known popularity of "Rosin the Beau"), a writer made reference to "that highly obscene and ridiculous song, beginning with, I met Moll Roe in the morning, Her tail it was draggled with dew, &c. Don't you hate those pesky "&c.'s"? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: meself Date: 17 Sep 19 - 08:54 PM Has anyone ever actually been named "Rosin"? Just wondering. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 18 Sep 19 - 07:50 AM The other week somebody tried to convince me that the song was actually about a girl called Roisin (pronounced Rosheen) and the bow was 'beax' French for beautiful. But it would be 'belle' for a female. Roisin means Rose, apparently. The word is said to have been used as a symbol for Ireland as a way of singing 'outlawed' patriotic songs. The rose symbolised Ireland. But how much truth there is in all this I do not know. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: GUEST,Pseudonymous Date: 18 Sep 19 - 07:51 AM Sorry beau not beax |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Lighter Date: 18 Sep 19 - 08:44 AM Everything becomes an allegory when you think hard enough about it.... |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Billy Weeks Date: 22 Sep 19 - 12:35 PM Old Rosin the Beau may have had an earlier life and it certainly passed into oral tradition, but it was published in the UK in 1844 as a theatre song in a play called ‘the Belle of the Hotel’. The sheet music shows it as written by actor and playwright, J B Buckstone, and composed by Edward Fitzwilliam Jr. The cover has a portrait of the singer, Mrs Fanny Fitzwilliam. She was an accomplished actress who was also well known for singing ‘in character’, anticipating the style of music hall singers of the following decades. I hesitate to claim this as the first appearance of the song in print, but it is certainly a pretty early showing. Some of the earliest music hall songs in the 1850s (for example ‘Villikens’) had had a previous life in the regular theatre. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Lighter Date: 22 Sep 19 - 01:55 PM Francis C. Sheridan 's diary (published as "Galveston Island," ed. W. W. Pratt, Austin: U.T. Press, 1954) identifies "Rosin the Beau" as a new song, of US origin though known in England, and wildly popular in Louisiana & Texas in 1842 (p. 91). Pratt even supplies an illustration of the sheet music of "Old Rosin the Bow!" [sic] depicting a chubby fiddler taking a bow (with his bow). An anonymous "Old Rosin the Beau: Favourite Comic Song, " arranged by J. C. Beckell, was published in Philadelphia "c1838." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Steve Gardham Date: 22 Sep 19 - 05:54 PM I've got copies of the Levy site American ones, Jon, but John could you please send me a copy of the 1844 sheet music? Love to Val. There was a predecessor of RTB from the mid 18th century called The Brisk Fellow (a.k.a.The Rakish Fellow in oral tradition and later printings, Roud 829). It also appears to be the predecessor of the Tarpaulin Jacket. Here's the 5th stanza. I'll have none but sailors to carry me, Let them be all damnable drunk, And as they go along for to bury me, May they fall down with my trunk; Let there be no sighing and sobbing, But one single favour I crave, take me up in my tarpaulin Jacket, And fiddle and dance to my grave. Last st refers to Admiral Hawke and was obviously written when Hawke was still an admiral and fighting sea battles. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Lighter Date: 22 Sep 19 - 07:22 PM Steve, would you post that 18th century text? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Richard Mellish Date: 23 Sep 19 - 04:23 AM Whether or not "Rosin" (as distinct from Roisin, Little Rose) was ever someone's name, the phrase "rosin the bow" makes perfect sense (and despite what someone said way up thread, what a string player uses is rosin, not resin). I'm inclined to regard "Rosin the beau" as a pun. I can imagine a fiddler who is a bit of a character being heard to mutter "I need to rosin the bow" so often that "rosin the bow/beau" became his nickname. Not that this tells us anything about when, where or by whom the song was first made. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Steve Gardham Date: 23 Sep 19 - 12:59 PM Hi Jon, John has just sent me a copy of his sheet music which is just a song that mentions them singing 'Rosin the Beau'. It has the same title and is set in NY but is obviously based on an earlier song. My gut feeling says all of these 1838 onwards pieces are very likely based on an earlier RTB, be it British (Irish) or American. The other piece to follow. The 1838 again is obviously a new version of an older song. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Steve Gardham Date: 23 Sep 19 - 01:16 PM The Lover's Magazine; or Cupid's Decoy, printed at Aldermary Churchyard c1760 The Brisk Fellow I am a jolly brisk fellow, delight in all manner of sport, And when I'm in liquor I'm mellow, The girls I do naturly court; But love has surrounded my passion, And put such thoughts in my head, Is this not a very sad story, that love should strike a man dead. I have been in stormy weather, I have been in heat and cold, I've been with fellows that ventur'd, Their lives boys for money and gold; But now the wars they are over, And I am safe moor'd on the shore, The de'il may have me for ever, If e'er I weigh anchor any more. Here's to the girl that will love me, And lie with me every night, That will frisk it away with a fiddle, A country dance or hornpipe. Let the weakest not go with the strongest, But let them be equally yok'd, For the strongest may last out the longest, Here's a jacket that values no strokes. Here's to my friends and acquaintance; When death upon me does come, Let them behave in their station, And send me a cask of good rum; Let it be good royal stingo, With full three barrels of beer; To make my friends the more welcome, To meet me at Tarry down fair. I'll have none but sailors to carry me, Let them be all damnable drunk, And as they go along for to bury me, May they fall down with my trunk; Let there be no sighing and sobbing, But one single favour I crave, take me up in my tarpaulin Jacket, And fiddle and dance to my grave. Here's to the youth on the throne, And send him long for to reign, And likewise to Admiral Hawke, And every true heart on the main. Come tip us the other can boys, Of liquor we have great store; The De'il may have me for ever, If e'er I weigh anchor any more. The 'youth on the throne' should also help to date it. I'll check it out. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Steve Gardham Date: 23 Sep 19 - 01:26 PM Bang on date. George III was 22 when he came to the throne in 1760. The wish for a long reign was certainly fulfilled! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Lighter Date: 23 Sep 19 - 01:55 PM Thanks, Steve. (A search of ECCO for the phrase "I am a jolly brisk fellow" went nowhere.) With numerous 19th century printings, I fully agree that it's the forebear of both "RTB" and "TJ." If "RTB" was already called a "Favourite" in 1838, it's likely to be somewhat older. Unless "Favourite" was just a sales ploy. The 1838 text seem not to be viewable on line. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Steve Gardham Date: 23 Sep 19 - 02:28 PM I have another copy also printed at Aldermary Churchyard, in the Choice Spirits Delight (23 songs) ref. BL 11621 e 2 (3) song number 10, but here the title is given as 'The Jolly Brisk Fellow'. I'm going off to look at the shorter later printings to see how they differ. Will report back. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: weerover Date: 23 Sep 19 - 03:55 PM Rosin is a resin. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Steve Gardham Date: 23 Sep 19 - 04:42 PM A little irony before I give further info, my grandmother can be heard singing RTB on the BL Sound Archive website. Her name is Annie Sykes. In Britain the song is seen as more of a 'community song' than a traditional folk song because it was so well-known, and so I hadn't taken much notice of her singing it, to my shame. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Steve Gardham Date: 23 Sep 19 - 04:50 PM The printed versions of The Rakish Young Fellow can be traced as they move about the country by some of the alterations here and there. After what is probably the London original of about 1760, it seems to have gone up to York, then Newcastle and then Edinburgh, before returning back to London where it was printed by both Catnach and Pitts and their successors in very close versions. This is a pattern that can be found in other ballads of the mid 18th century that continued to be printed into the 19th when they become standardised in a shorter form. It is usually, but not always, this standard form that goes into oral tradition, as one would expect, to be collected at the end of the century. I will look at the oral versions soon and see if this in fact the case with this song. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Steve Gardham Date: 26 Sep 19 - 10:54 AM Some more observations. Clearly the usual tune for The Rakish Young Fellow (Tarpaulin Jacket) and the well-known standard tune for ORTB are related. Both are quite simple, though ORTB rather more theatrical and with a greater compass. TJ's tune is usually quite plaintive and slow, more serious, and ORTB much more robust. If RYF did inspire ORTB then the latter might be considered a burlesque of the former. From at least 1838 onwards, as a theatrical piece, various versions of ORTB were extremely popular and constantly parodied into new versions. What for now I'll call the British version was printed almost verbatim by English printers of about the same period, the 1840s, mainly by Successors to the Pitts/Catnach dynasties, but not apparently by Pitts or Catnach themselves. I think it a fair conclusion that ORTB probably did not exist in its standard form during the Pitts-Catnach era up to about 1835. The language of all versions I've seen is generally, though not wholly, of the theatre of the time, i.e., a certain sophistication, not normally found on street lit or in oral tradition of the period. e.g., 'That cruel implacable foe'. The 2 identical versions on the Lester Levy site with no images available start off with the standard British first line but must deviate quite quickly as the subjects ascribed to it on the site do not completely tally with the standard version, although they appear to have the funeral and burial verses in some form. The Southern Ballad version on Levy which is available has a new first verse but all of the other verses appear somewhere in the 1848 Forget-me-Not Songster version from America reprinted by Louise Pound in American Ballads and Songs. This American version has a lot in common with the British version but has 3 extra verses and some other verses are shunted around. What we need to draw any useful conclusions is information prior to 1838, mentions in magazines and newspapers perhaps. The song appears in several musicals in one form or another on both sides of the Atlantic in the 1840s. On one of the pieces of sheet music the air (the standard one) is described as a 'Tippecanoe' air. Tippecanoe is in Indiana and I'm not sure what they mean by this. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Lighter Date: 26 Sep 19 - 11:03 AM I assumed "Tippecanoe" referred to this (semi-famous), but it looks as though the tune is different and the words don't scan : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tippecanoe_and_Tyler_Too |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Steve Gardham Date: 26 Sep 19 - 02:00 PM John's sheet music is note for note the standard ORTB. However if it was a big election issue c1840 then there are usually several songs about it. Another point worth mentioning, the Southern Ballad version surely must be the source for the American songster version as it has the same verses in the same order but in the songster version some of the pairs of verses have been shunted into one, a typical shortening in broadside fashion. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Steve Gardham Date: 26 Sep 19 - 02:09 PM Jon, have you any idea what the text to the 2 identical Levy pieces of sheet music look like? bridges, boating etc. As they are the earliest dated copies we have they would be useful, even to just compare the funeral/burial/wake verses. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Lighter Date: 27 Sep 19 - 01:23 PM Steve, I haven't been able to call up the"Levy" lyrics from anywhere. But I did email you something of interest, which may or may not be worth summarizing here. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Lighter Date: 27 Sep 19 - 05:28 PM Professor G. C. Broadhead gave Belden two versions in 1910. One was the version beginning "I live for the good of my nation." The second, below, Broadhead recalled that he had heard “as long ago as 1839," though he thought it might be the younger of the two. Broadhead, a former Missouri State Geologist, was born in Albemarle Co., Va., 1827. and died in 1912. The family moved to Missouri i n 1836. Come, fellows, and pledge me a bumper And drink me one toast ere we go; Fill high, let the wine cup now sparkle, And drink to old Rosin the Bow. Chorus: And drink to old Rosin the Bow, And drink to old Rosin the Bow, Fill high, let the wine cup now sparkle, And drink to old Rosin the Bow. A fiddler he was of renown, Who traveled through sunshine and snow; And slowly and dull went the town When absent old Rosin the Bow. Soft eyes, soft speeches and glances Belong to a lover, you know, But nothing its pleasure enhances Like the notes of old Rosin the Bow, Like the notes of old Rosin the Bow. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Lighter Date: 27 Sep 19 - 05:44 PM Steve, I find the following among some notes from about 15 years ago: "Earliest known pub. appears to be 'Old Rosin the Beau: Comic Song,' arr. by J. C. Beckell (Philadelphia : Osbourn’s Music Saloon, 1838), in Levy Sheet Music Collection (Box 10, Item 24) [I printed a copy]; text & tune essentially Lloyd version." So the Levy version was once online. What happened to it? I must have my copy somewhere. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Steve Gardham Date: 30 Sep 19 - 02:55 PM Neither of the 2 copies were there when I started printing them off about 10 years ago. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Steve Gardham Date: 30 Sep 19 - 04:51 PM I've now checked all of the versions I have available to me and as I suspected, apart from the odd fragmentary version, they are all almost verbatim one of 3 versions. In other words there is very little variation once you get past the 3 c1838 published versions. All British oral versions follow the standard broadside almost verbatim and American oral versions follow either the 'Southern' version, the songster version, or indeed the British version, right down to the use of the word 'implacable'(one version transposing to 'impeccable'). |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Steve Gardham Date: 01 Oct 19 - 02:02 PM Another point worth making about the Beckell version is that if the list of subject matter is anything to go by this version does not relate to any later versions other than with the funeral verses. It obviously contained much matter not found elsewhere. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: GUEST Date: 23 Oct 22 - 11:50 AM When Ifirst had my own band with my friend Martin I played the accordion and he was the main singer, it was called Braveheart. He said that the writer of this song was by a Glasgow born singer named Matt McGinn... when I look at this song myself I know the words that were written in 1877 by Francis D. Henry whereas McGinns' were from 1966. The song was about a pub in Glasgow which was where he first heard it sung.This is great information and I can use it to do a review myself, thanks - Joe |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: GUEST Date: 23 Oct 22 - 03:10 PM I was looking through 1880's newspapers which have some discussion of the origins of Rosin the Beau, and the tune it is set to. "I lo'e nae a laddie butane" was being cited as the melody used. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWeqvAI1zTs |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Lighter Date: 12 Mar 23 - 06:24 PM The Beckell version of 1838 has reappeared: https://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/collection/026/073 Another text, anonymous, undated but seemingly of the same period, begins "I live for the good of my Nation." It's described as "A Southern Ballad": https://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/collection/042/101 On Jan. 18, 1838, the "Ripley [Miss.] Transcript" published a text of 9 four-line stanzas much like Beckell's but with some notable differences. Unlike Beckell's, this version features "Rosin the Bow," not "Beau." It would seem to be the earliest datable text. Various U.S. newspapers of the late 19th C. averred that the tune was an "old Methodist hymn tune," but nobody seemed able to recall what it was called (assuming it existed at all). |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Rex Date: 13 Mar 23 - 03:59 PM Thank'ee Lighter for pointing this out. It is good to see these gems. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Lighter Date: 13 Mar 23 - 04:18 PM My pleasure. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Rex Date: 13 Mar 23 - 05:59 PM Seeing this revered song in its original trappings has been a long held desire. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Haruo Date: 17 Mar 23 - 04:17 PM Sawyer's Exit (338 in the 1991 Denson Sacred Harp) was mentioned a couple times twenty years ago, but the words were not given. They are How bright is the day when the Christian Receives the sweet message to come, To rise to the mansions of glory, And be there forever at home. The angels stand ready and waiting, The moment the spirit is gone, To carry it upward to heaven, And welcome it safely home. The saints that have gone up before us, All raise a new shout as we come, And sing hallelujah the louder To welcome the travelers home. We sang it at my wife Paula's memorial service. The score, robotic teachers, and a couple of YouTube links are available at the Sacred Harp Bremen site: https://sacredharpbremen.org/338-sawyers-exit/ The first and second verses are set to a different tune ("Rise to the Mansions of Glory" by W. M. Cooper) in the Cooper Sacred Harp, also at page 338. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Old Rosin the Bow / Rosin the Beau From: Lighter Date: 17 Mar 23 - 04:45 PM Thanks for the ID, Haruo. The tune of "Sawyer's Exit" seems to have been arranged in 1850 - after a dozen years of Rosin the Bow's popularity. https://fasola.org/indexes/1991/?p=338 |
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