Is anyone else as scared as I am?

Subject: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 03 Apr 99 - 12:13 AM

I think everything I have read or heard about our jolly little war in Yugoslavia totally misses the real danger we face because of it, and not because the Balkans have a history of involving the world in wars, but because the Russians are about to have an election and the nation and particularly its (sort of) democratic government have been humiliated both by our power play in their backyard and our treatment of them as irrelevant, ignoring their offer to mediate. The Russian ultranationalists were soundly defeated in the last election but the Communists came in a strong second, but if this stupid war lasts things could be very different. And what if, in order to build a majority, the nationalists and communists were to form a coalition--what chance would Yeltsin's successors have when the blame for the humiliation would be added to the blame for the economic collapse and the explosive growth of the Russian mafia?

Does anyone else see the striking similarities between Russia in the present and post World War I Germany? "And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?" --seed

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Rincon Roy
Date: 03 Apr 99 - 12:41 AM

-a lot of things in this business have been giving me the creeps...

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From:
Date: 03 Apr 99 - 12:54 AM

Actually, Russia of the present reminds me more of World War I Russia; the Russia that supported the Balkan countries then as now. What strikes me most is that our President, an anti-war activist in his youth, has become one of the most bellecose presidents we've had. That's irony for ya.--John

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Margo
Date: 03 Apr 99 - 01:27 AM

I'm for doing things right the first time. (I didn't want us there in the first place.) I think that the President's anti-war track record is showing in that he doesn't have a clue militarily. All the experts are saying that after a bombing campaign, you follow with ground troops or you're wasting your time. Bombing alone won't do the job. The pres. said that he won't send in ground troops, but then he has lied before, hasn't he? Margie

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 03 Apr 99 - 03:17 AM

Friends:

It's late and I'm tired. Been working on production stuff all day, and my eyes are blurring from staring at the monitor. But, Paul Stamler, perhaps the most knowledgeable folkmusic DJ in radio (his show is broadcast from St. Louis) just sent this to the FOLKDJ-L to which I also subscribe. I thought I should share it with you. I hope I can shift it over to HTML.

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 23:13:36 -0800
From: "Paul J. Stamler"
[e-mail]

Hi folks:

Like all of you, I've been following the terrible events taking place in Yugoslavia for the last several years, including the war that is now taking place. I'm sorry to report that our colleagues at B92, a dissident radio station in Belgrade, have been shut down by the police; they were forced to stop broadcasting last week, and today their internet broadcast was shut down as well. Their website (http://www.b92.net/) was still active as of a few minutes ago, and makes for very interesting reading (they are bitterly opposed to both the NATO airstrikes *and* the Serbian government's atrocities).

I *don't* want to start a discussion of the war here, particularly not a discussion of what we (and others) should do. This list isn't the place for it. But I'd like to make a couple of observations. The first is that the closing of B92 reminds us of how powerful a medium we have in our hands when we sit behind a broadcast console. Most of the time, what we broadcast isn't earth-shaking; we play music, hoping to move a few hearts and souls to laughter, tears or thought. Once in a while, though, there are reminders that radio can be a lifeline, a channel for free thought in the face of tyranny -- a worthwhile remembrance for this season of passover.

This internet over which we're speaking is likewise capable of being a powerful lifeline -- perhaps even more so than radio, since it's far less expensive to connect to the internet than it is to set up and run a broadcasting station. One of the facets of this is that the net has become the equivalent of short-wave broadcasting -- a way to hear the points of view of *all* the protagonists, in their own words. Again, a blow for freedom. As an example, there is a website:

http://www.commondreams.org/kosovo/kosovo.htm

whereat are posted links to everyone, and I mean everyone, from the BBC and Reuters news services to the US State Dept. to the Serbian government to the KLA to nonviolent resistance movements in Kosovo to British military briefings to pacifist groups to humanitarian organizations. I strongly recommend spending an hour browsing these primary sources.

As a radio and internet broadcaster, I am very proud of the roles broadcasters and netcasters have taken in the last several weeks, and am deeply grateful for their efforts. And in this season which is holy to two major religions, I pray for the safety of our colleagues at B92, and for peace.

Salaam aleikum.

Paul

You've just heard from a really good man.

Sandy

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Apr 99 - 03:16 PM

It is desparatly sad that the only way that our leaders think they can prevent despots from persecuting and bombing their own innocents, is by persucuting and bombing the innocents in who's name the ethnic cleansing is supposed to be carried out.

In the last few months in the UK, our best legal brains have come up with the idea that General Pinochet is immune to prosecution for torture conducted before a certain date, as torture was not illegal before then.

Surely we have to find a way to make our leaders accountable for their actions and not their countries.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Apr 99 - 03:23 PM

There is a lot of good sense posted on this subject here also. Kosovo

The answer to the question Seed is YES

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: bet
Date: 03 Apr 99 - 04:17 PM

Lots of food for thought on the Kosovo thread. Yes Seed I am scared!!

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From:
Date: 03 Apr 99 - 09:55 PM

Does anyone have any idea about how long you think it will go on? Over by January, do you think?

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Apr 99 - 01:37 AM

There are also some very good thoughts on the subject here. Xenaphobia

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From:
Date: 04 Apr 99 - 03:25 AM

Shambles, I look at the situation like Sherlock Holms does when he says "Eliminate the impossible and the rest must be the facts"

Clinton only knows how to do three things:

He didn't make any election promises to the Serbs, so he can't go back on them.

The second thing got him into trouble when he tried it with one woman. He is not likely to try it with the entire Serbian nation.

That leaves only the third thing--bombing.

So much for imitating Sherlock. Now I will go back to the more pleasant task trying to imitate Doc Watson.

Murray

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 04 Apr 99 - 03:51 AM

Murray, I hope you have more success with your endeavor than we are having protecting the Kosovars. --seed

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: LEJ
Date: 04 Apr 99 - 04:00 AM

I wonder how many times I have heard people ask " How could the world stand by and watch as the Nazis slaughtered the Jews?" And I wonder if some of these people are the same ones saying that the elimination of the Kosovars is " an internal problem for Serbia and we have no business interfering in the affairs of a sovereign nation."...LEJ

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 04 Apr 99 - 04:13 AM

Not only is what we are doing counter-productive, Lonesome, but hypocritical. Where were we when the Tutsis were Killing the Hutus in Rwanda (or are we just more concerned about protecting white people than black?) (or perhaps in stabilizing an area we're interested in as the site of an oil pipeline) and where were (are) we when the Indonesian were killing the East Timorese. I can tell you where we were/are in the latter case--selling weapons to the Indonesians. --seed

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: LEJ
Date: 04 Apr 99 - 04:42 AM

One of the reasons we are able to take action in Yugoslavia as opposed to Africa or Indonesia is the fact that we have two things in existence in Europe that we lack in Asia and Africa:1. A consensus of opinion among neighboring governments regarding what should be done and 2. The available forces to do it.

Rather than say "we didn't act there, therefore we lack the moral authority to act here", I believe that nations within the world in the various spheres of power (Southeast Asia, Africa, South America) should form coalitions to monitor and prevent episodes like the ethnic cleansing of Kosovars as well as the slaughter of Hutus or East Timorese. And I believe it is our duty as the most powerful nation on earth to take a leadership role in these situations...LEJ

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Night Owl
Date: 04 Apr 99 - 05:16 AM

Makes me wonder what we really mean by "Never Again". Frightening????---Ollie North is again sharing his wisdom on TV today.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Bud Sherman
Date: 04 Apr 99 - 09:44 AM

Those who feel that we should do nothing for the Kosovars because we didn't do anything for another group damn us to a virulent form of predestination. Under it society would never evolve. The gift of free coice means that because we previously did something wrong or stupid does not mean that we must continue down the same path for eternity.

When my great-great-grandfather's generation finally accepted the need to end slavery in America, there were nay-sayers, primarily the Copperheads, about that terrible war.

The Serbian "innocents" are not unlike the "good Germans" who did not know what the Nazis were doing to the Jews, Gypsies, Poles, etc., in the concentration camps until after the war. But the Serbs have even less of an excuse. They have B-92 and the internet as news sources.

It is extraordinary that a people obsessed with reversing a battle they lost SIX HUNDRED YEARS AGO in Kosovo, don't realize they are creating enmities that may last another 600 years.

That said, I deeply regret that a majority of my fellow citizens twice voted to put Clinton in the White House. His international skills are non-existant. He started an air-campaign with no idea of what to do if it did not succeed. He is belatedly getting first aid to the Kosovar refugees. He has not done anything to accept the any refugees here.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: skarpi
Date: 04 Apr 99 - 10:35 AM

Hallo everyone, yes I would, I thought about this. Maybe this is beging of world war three. I pray to god that is not gona be, if the nato army goes into Kosovo on land, may god help them, they do not have a change to fight against the serbs. While the Nato was talking to Milo... what ever his name is why wasend he killed ??? and his members. It is easy to say things than doing them.

I pray to god that this war will be ended, lets all pray to god, as a Icelander I am agianst this war, and that Iceland taking part of it, that is not a good thing.

bless skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Apr 99 - 02:35 PM

I am still struggling with my thoughts about this. I consider myself to be a pacifist, but there are times when I have an overwhelming urge to go gung-ho and say blast them away. When reason returns I have thoughts more like skarpi's. Why didn't we "take him out" when we had a chance? Same question asked about Saddam Hussein. Then I think that wouldn't be the answer either.

I didn't mean to suggest that because we didn't help Tibet, that we should never help anyone else; just why didn't we help them, too? I agree that we certainly can't use inaction in a previous situation for inaction in the present.

I plan on visiting the site Sandy posted, some more. I am interested in how the Serbian people feel about Milosevic and in the history of the entire conflict. There are some incredible personal diaries of people in Belgrade on there.

I have to say I voted for Clinton and would do so again. He is not the only one to have made the decision to bomb Kosovo; we are not the only country involved, and in a democracy, no one person ever makes such a decision on their own and carries it out. I still think it is chicken*&^$ of congresspersons to take the easy fence-sitting stance of saying they support our troops, but not the prez. They cannot have it both ways. It is also ironic that most who are saying that are the ones who are usually such warmongers. I believe it is all political and that they don't give a damn as long as they can work at destroying Clinton in any way they can.

I protested against the Gulf War. It feels odd to me to not feel that way about this one. I worry about my neice and her son and husband in Aviano. I have a hard time watching the news because it literally breaks my heart to see the Albanians being exiled. My mind reels to think of my own town being emptied, all of our identity destroyed through burning of papers, etc. It is hard to grasp that such a thing can happen.

There are no easy answers. I don't feel as scared as I do sad, angry, and uneasy. I have to believe that the god of our hearts and those of everyone involved will prevail; that the higher consciousness within each and every one will be allowed to come to the forefront to guide them in reasonable actions; so that all will see the futility and absolute inhumanity of what they are doing and find a way to settle peacefully. Utopian? Perhaps, but if enough make that connection with their Higher Self, whatever their belief, there could be a good and miraculous change of hearts. I give thanks that it is so.

katlaughing

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Margo
Date: 04 Apr 99 - 03:07 PM

My husband pointed out to me last night that if the Albanians had the greater military might they would be doing the same thing the Serbs are doing now. There are no good guys there. They have been squabbling and fighting for centurys.

Of course, that doesn't mean that such barbarous agressions should be "allowed". How to disallow, or stop the agressors is unclear to me. But I do feel strongly about American lives and I don't think this conflict is worth losing any.

There is an old Chinese "curse", "May you live in interesting times". These certainly are interesting times.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Teresa
Date: 04 Apr 99 - 04:42 PM

I find it difficult to think about American lives being lost in the context of the number of Albanian lives being lost. How many human lives are affected? Why does it matter whether these lives are American or Albanian? As for the Russian issue, I can only hope that the country's failing economy and recent dependence on the West will curb the Slavo-nationalist rhetoric. The only unsettling thing about that is: How much weaponry will they sell to raise cash? (Shiver) This is all such a mess. Teresa

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Ethan Mitchell
Date: 04 Apr 99 - 07:33 PM

Seems like we're talking a lot about what America is supposed to do in Kosovo, and elsewhere. And the problem is, America has this huge power, this huge potential for good, maybe, but we have an incredible track record of using it in self-interest or almost randomly. So the pacifists (like me) feel edgy, just as they did at the beginning of World War II. (I think Bismark said 'If there is ever another World War, it will come out of some damn silly thing in the Balkans). Because our country knows everything about war-power and nothing about peace-power, so if we're going to be effectual....I guess my point is, the question is not what America should do, 'cause America is probably going to get it wrong, as usual. The question is what do we Americans (et al) do? As individuals. I don't know enough to answer that...Macedonia is apparently getting buried in refugees, and they need help, and there are all the usual protest / write your congressman / fund your lobbyist type things. Or you could go there and filibuster like people did in the Spanish Civil War. Thoughts?

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: TonyK
Date: 04 Apr 99 - 10:16 PM

This is a very good discussion. Most people I meet at work or on the street don't want to talk about it. The situation over there reminds me of a domestic violence situation. Policemen often get shot getting in the middle of them. The vulnerable ones in Kosovs are getting badly hurt and the men seem to be disappearing. I have to use my head and that's hard to do when children and old people and women are hurting. I must humbly realize that I cannot save the world. These people have been hating each other for centuries. There are some things worth risking everything for and other things I can help out with and some things I must stay out of to enable me to be of help later. My pride is something I need to watch out for, too. I support the bombing and if that doesn't work, back off until the dust settles and a better window of opportunity presents itself. I'm glad President Clinton kept us out of Bosnia until the dust settled and I'm glad he got us the hell out of Somalia. Yes, I'm scared, but not as much as I was 30 years ago today when Dr. King was assassinated. The world is a scary place.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From:
Date: 04 Apr 99 - 10:40 PM

I think it is wrong to argue about what the Albanians would have done if they had the power. They don't. You have to go by what is happening and what you consider might happen. I think the US was right in getting involved in WWII even though Hitler did, in fact, claim that the Jews were conspiring to overpower the "Aryans".

But I don't think the US involvement in WWII was a knee-jerk reaction like the bombing of Yougoslavia is now. It seems to have been carefully planned and thought out.

The Australian papers had a headline after the impeachment decision "Clinton Victorious, Now for Revenge". I was waiting to read that Republican Hq. had been bombed the next day.

Murray

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Susan A-R
Date: 04 Apr 99 - 10:53 PM

The situation feels entirely wrong to me. It seems that p'raps we're pouring oil on a fire. Noam Chomsky talks about applying the hyppocratic principles of 'Do no harm" to this sort of stuff (he write VERY eloquently about how the US has been involved in other countries over the past thirty or so years, and we don't apply that principle well. Teresa, your question is pretty chilling. I do wish that we could somehow deal with leaders. Sovreign immunity seems to be a bit of a problemm. Also, holding the folks who sold all of the heavy equipment wouldn't be bad in my book either. I just don't think our current approach is solving much. I also keep a globe in my kitchen, and it's painfully clear how close everything gets there, and this could so easily spread. Brrrr!

Susan

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: AlistairUK
Date: 05 Apr 99 - 07:00 AM

Clinton got fucked in the US so he's fucking someone weaker than him...best bullyboy tactics. This is not our fight, sorry to say. I feel for the innocents sure but what can we do. This thing may escalate, it may not. It depends on the Powers That Be if they want to continue this abomination. The reason Africa didn't get any help recently was because who gives a shit about the Africans? This is theeir little tribal war. I mean it's not as if they have economic power like say South Africa. Plus they were not so easy targets. And Tibet? Woah Nelly don't mess with the commie chinks they is likely to just nuke the western hemisphere and be done with it. Yugoslavia and the Balkans have indeed been at each others throats since the dawn of time. Occidental europeans got to messin' in their affairs and that got WW1 nicely going, which led to WW2 which led to the communist epoch when the Balkans were part of the Soviet bloc and so repressed they didn't have time to fight each other. What we are seeing in the Balkans the last few years is the release of a few decades of not being able to have a little skirmish ( I mean it's part of their culture for God's sake!) now and again. What can we do about it...absolutely nothing, it's going to happen, just as the massacre of the jews was bound to happen in Germany during the thirties and forties, the conditions (incidently set by the all wise allied commisions after the first war...so who is partially to blame for the Holocaust?) existed and the evilist little git took advantage. NOw everybody is breast beating and pullling their hair out and shit, and I ask "Where were we when they needed our help and wisdom when they became independant?" Falling over ourselves getting trade deals together to suck their money away from them and not worrying about anything else. When the Soviet union collapsed it was obvious what was going to hapopen..look at what happened in Georgia and the other former soviet states. The only difference in the Balkans is that it's gone on for a little longer and the US and NATO have decided to stick their noses in.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Ethan Mitchell
Date: 05 Apr 99 - 07:46 AM

Pretty ugly, Alistair, but pretty accurate. I don't think any situation is *hopeless* if you consider the full range of possibilities...but within the rather limited world of bombing sorties, yes, I think this is hopeless. I know very little about the history of the Balkans, and I get a sense that I'm not alone in that. So I'm a little taken aback by the 'it's been going on for centuries' line. Seems like an excuse for irresponsibility. I mean, you could say exactly the same thing about England and France, France and Germany, Germany and Poland, Poland and Russia, Russia and China, China and Japan, etc. etc.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Teresa
Date: 05 Apr 99 - 03:50 PM

It's increasingly more difficult to practice isolationism these days. It's so easy to hear about what's going on in the world. Just last night I went to the b92 website, something I wouldn't have dreamed of doing even a couple years ago. I don't know what responsibilities individuals should have in this situation, but I just don't think burying our heads in the sand is a good thing either--it's a good way to get a swift kick in the rear. I don't think in this day and age that it's possible to even pretend not to be involved in any world-shaping political event. Teresa

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: LEJ
Date: 05 Apr 99 - 08:08 PM

Alistair UK...The theory that Clinton "got fucked" in the US, and that is the motivation for the action in Yugoslavia does not hold water. First of all, Clinton's popularity was at an all-time high when this bombing began. Secondly, the action is a NATO joint effort and as such enjoys the support of other alliance nations. This includes a very vocal British Prime Minister Tony Blair. Was he also motivated by vengeance and frustration? And third, the bombing was brought upon Yugoslavia by the intransigence and criminal propensities of Slobodan Milosevich. Most criminals won't behave unless a loaded gun is pointed at them. If they know the gun is unloaded, they will usually continue robbing and murdering.

You say that the " massacre of the Jews was bound to happen." That is like saying that murder and robbery in the streets is bound to happen, so why try to prevent or stop it. And the Holocaust cannot be excused by harsh conditions imposed by the Allies on a defeated Germany. My father and my father-in-law, who fought with American and British forces to subdue Hitler and his regime of murderers, would be quite shocked and angered to be told that their countries contributed in some way to the cold-blooded extermination of millions of innocent people. I think they believed, as I do, that this extermination was the act of a madman.

Finally, the belief that two groups of people living in close proximity but differing in their religious and cultural heritage, who have practiced terrorism and repression against one another,whose history of hostility goes back 400 years... the belief that these people have no better options for the future because "it's part of their culture", that would come as a very bitter and pessimistic comment to those in Ireland, Northern Ireland, and Britain who are struggling to create a new and better life for themselves, their countries, and their children...LEJ

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Night Owl
Date: 06 Apr 99 - 12:24 AM

Wow...LEJ...Well said....I hope you're teaching somewhere!

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 06 Apr 99 - 03:44 AM

Lonesome, the holocaust was not the work of just one man but of a majority of people in a nation of what, 80 or 100 million people, whose resentments at the screwing they felt they had received at the end of World War I and their collapsing economy--and their history of anti-semitism (not actually as violent a history as that of Russia until the Third Reich) were stirred by that man, who, mad though he may have been, was a master at the manipulation of myth and memory--just as Milosevic seems to be. I never argued that we should just let the Serbs "cleanse" Yugoslavia of Kosovars, just that there had to have been a better way of stopping him (judging by the results, there could hardly have been a worse), and that Russia would have likely had much more influence and the world would be a hell of a lot safer place if we had let Russia work it out. But NATO nations are far too cozy with international oil interests to allow Russia to have an economic advantage in the area through which they wish to build (and control) an oil pipeline to the Mediterranean from the vast fields to be developed in the former SSRs on the Caspian Sea.

It was for the benefit of these oil interests that we ignored Russia's claim to be close to negitiating an Iraqi withdrawal from Kuwait. THAT war was sold to us on the argument that it was our duty to rid the world of "the Hitler of the Mideast," something we somehow neglected to do once Iraq was out of Kuwait and no longer a threat to Saudi Arabia (two outstanding democracies, of course). We (that is, the government which supposedly serves our needs) can't build it through Turkey or carry the oil by ships to the Mediterranean--Turkey, wisely, doesn't want to chance an Exxon Valdez on its shores. And of course, we can't let it go through Iraq or Iran, right? No, we want Exxon and Shell and Chevron and BP and all those other honorable multinationals to build and benefit from a pipeline through a stabilized Balkans.

I would much prefer that Russia have the prestige and influence that a successful mediation or other solution of the problem would bring them: we have a strong national and international interest in the financial recovery of Russia if that recovery starts when Yeltsin is still president. If Russia goes into the presidential election without signs that this recovery is a real hope, the Communists will probably win a plurality (and possibly a majority) of the votes and the ultra-nationalists will get back much of what they lost in the last parliamentary election. And both the communists and the ultranationalists are likely to try to reabsorb the former SSRs, particularly those with oil. That's what I'm scared of--that looks like World War Three to me.

By the way, I'd like to apologize to the Tutsis for confusing them with the Hutus in and earlier post. --seed

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 06 Apr 99 - 04:48 AM

Something truly dreadful is about to happen, I can feel it in my water. Has anybody else in the UK noticed a change in news content yesterday and today? Kosovo is now item 2 or 3 as opposed to #1...
I don't have any precedents for this, just my intuition, but it smells like misdirection. We're being fed humanitarian crisis stories while Belgrade is flattened. I don't doubt the moral justification for this whole business, but the tone of the journalism (even on Radio 4) seems suspiciously heavy-handed to me...
So what is the hidden agenda, and what are 'they' going to do next?

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: hank
Date: 06 Apr 99 - 08:43 AM

well, LEJ, perhaps your father and father in law want to examin history a little closer. Several churches in the US (I don't know how many) held fund raisers in the '30s to help Germany rid themselves of Jews. We tend to forget that setiments today about that war are not what they were. Early on there was strong support for Germany. (Remember many immigrants came from germany) Just because the leaders of this country supported the Allies more then Axis doesn't mean that the support was universial, strong support didn't happen until the war broke out.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Bert
Date: 06 Apr 99 - 09:46 AM

The really sad thing is that The United Nations (supposedly a peace keeping organization) has been completely inept in this situation. If they had been more effective, then it wouldn't have been left to NATO (a military alliance) to try to solve the problem.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: AlistairUK
Date: 06 Apr 99 - 11:51 AM

LEJ: Hank partially said what i was going to say, but to pick up on a theme I've been putting down in another thread. I wasn't pointing the finger at individuals. That is really hard to do, especially for people who actually believed that they were doing it for the right reasons (a s I'm sure your father did). What I'm saying is that these situations as BSeed said are wholly economical and manipulated by wants of a nation or organisation. Brazil(normally a neutral member of NATO) was suckered into supporting the directive for action in Kosovo because of its massive debt to the IMF, we got to keep licking international bunghole so they look kindly on our loan repayments. So this just goes to show what a truly international statesman Fernando Henrique Cardoso (the Brazilian President) is, he is cut from the same cloth as the Clintons, the Blairs and the rest of 'em. Smiles and pseudo-liberalism on the one hand, and "hardman" posturing on the other. Of course Blair is a vociferous supporter of Clinton, he still wants to be friends with the U.S. ( when I say the U.S. I mean the gargantuan state machine that runs the country not the individuals. Yes Slobodan Milosevich is a murderer and and dictator. I never denied that, but this situation was obviously going to happen from the first day of independence from the Soviet Bloc. political historian with half a brain would have seen this. What i was trying to say, but didn't really make clear was, where the hell were we before this situation started to go out of comntrol? Why were we not there to help ease the independent struggles of the various countries and groups in the Balkans. We weren't interested in trying to enlighten the people, just selling them more coke and nikes. No you can't let the situation carry on as before, I'm sorry if the irony didn't come through but I was actually being ironic. Surely we are more enlightened today and we can help people towrds a better understanding of each other instead of letting situations build up, then getting huffy because they won't listen to us. Sorry, but this selective blindness of the Member countries of the North Atlantic Treaty doesn't wash with me and I'm sure it doesbn't with a lot of other people as well.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Don Meixner
Date: 06 Apr 99 - 12:29 PM

For the first time in my life I am unsure where I stand in an issue of this kind. Perhaps the comfort of distance allows me to be undecided while people like Wolfgang who are so much closer have a signifcantly greater concern.

I am good historian but its an American history view of the world. We see things globaly only in how they affect us as Americans. Too often our notion of the bigger picture is only in how effects us. Our actions in South America support this. We supported puppets and dictators when we should have supported schools and self reliance. Education is as strong a weapon against tranny as you need, whether the tyrants be from the right or the left. We would now have strong, self supporting neighbors.

I have to ask questions that have no good answers perhaps. Is this really only a civil war and we have no business there? Or is this appeasement and Neville Chamberlain all over again.

Viet Nam was easy for me. The small vestige of racism that I know exists with in me said these were Asians and not related to me. Let them fight it out. The peoples in that region had been at war for centuries with no winners, only losers. The Dutch British French and now the US had tried to work their empiracle wills on South East Asia and never even came close. If communism was their choice, fine. What right had we to jam capitalism and American self interest down their throats in the guise of supporting a local tyrant.

Is Cossavo and Serbia any different because there is an outside chance I could be related to these folks? Is an ancient grudge more acceptable because it is held by the British and Irish and less because the Serbs feel a connection to a chunk of land about as big as Kentucky. I truly don't know.

This I do know. You can't conquer and hold a conquered land from the air. This can only be done from the ground by boys who are barely old enough to vote. Boys who maybe shooting hoops on saturday may be asked to shoot people on Monday. Boys who can't legally drink a beer but are told to save the world as we know it.

I have 16 year old twin sons who maybe facing this fight. They are the music in my day and the joy of my life. Could I give them up for a chance to save people I don't know from a war I can't understand.

I don't know.

Don

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Margo
Date: 06 Apr 99 - 12:58 PM

I agree that it is totally hypocritical to say that the action being taken aganst Milosivich is for humanitarian reasons; as was pointed out, where was the humanitarianism when the Africans were in upheaval?

I do believe that the United States should use their power in self interest. You've got to protect yourself, not let anyone push you around, and keep yourself strong. As a weak nation the US wouldn't be worth much to the rest of the world.

I just don't see how US involvment in this conflict is in our best interest. I feel very strongly about American lives. If we are going to put our soldiers in harms way, there better be a sound reason for doing so.

What does Clinton think we're going to gain from being there and bombing? What is his motivation for involving the US there? I don't think he has any noble motives at all.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Apr 99 - 01:50 PM

I really can't decide how I feel about this, but, Margarita, I don't think oil was very good justification for sending our men in harm's way in the Gulf War, either, esp. when I drive throughout Wyoming and see all of the idle oilwells and read the whining of all of the oil people here who say they are losing money.

I guess it is important to remember that we really are becoming one world, our world is expanding, yet becoming smaller in distance from one another. What effects one part of the world does have a ripple effect on the rest of us, just as volcanic ash spewed forth from Mt. Pinatubo brought a chilly summer and much cloud cover around the world.

Education is the key, although at the moment it is a little too late. I don't think what has apparently happened with over one quarter of a million people displaced is justified, but if it came down to sending my son, like Don said, I just don't know.

Again, I don't think it comes down to Clinton alone, at all. He plays the game, as every President ever has, because to not do so would cause themselves and the self-perpetuating system great harm. Do I like that system? NO! It is cronyism, mafioso-type tactics, and political machinations at their worse, but I do not think we can blame it on whether that one person has good will in his heart or not. He does not act nor make these decisions alone.

America has a schizo collective persona. On one hand, we are gung-ho patriots, ready and willing to defend our freedom and democracy at all costs. On the other hand, when push comes to shove, as we learn more about a situation, esp. nowadays with the Internet, we question more and more, when our intellect takes charge instead of our emotions, and we may not be as blindingly willing to lay our lives or those of our children on the line.

It is as though we've always wanted to be the brash, yet benevolent big brother to every fledgling out there, and instead we act the neighbourhood bully. Still, there are no easy answers. This is the nature of the life we are given of free will and self-determination.

Then we wind up pondering the mysterious ways of the Universe: were the Jews, Gays, Gypsies, etc. fated to die because of past life conduct? When a bus in India wrecks and all are killed, was it karma or sheer chance which caused their demise? Is this the case in Kosovo? Do they owe a big spiritual debt or is their collective consciousness perpetuating a life of strife, anger, resentment and fear which must be acted out? And, if that is so, are we and other NATO members acting out an inevitable scenario given the collective consciouness of the world? Do we, as mature parents, put them in a room, so to speak and tell them to work it out and when that fails, go in and takeover? Should seeming innocents die in our efforts or as a consequence of the intransigence of their neighbors?

Sorry, maybe that is too esoteric, but I do think it is good to try to see the "big picture" and envision the long-range life of our planet, with her peoples or not.

katlaughing

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Frank in the swamps
Date: 06 Apr 99 - 04:25 PM

Sometimes you have to do it because it's the right thing to do. A nation is suffering genocide for god's sake. No matter how many times we've been wrong before, taking Slob. M's gangsters out is the right thing to do. They need to be brought to trial and hanged. And incidentally, if you wanna talk about blame, western european nations are the ones who should have taken the lead on this back during the Bosnian mess.

Western europeans didn't object very much to our (U.S.)involvment (massive troop deployment & extension of our nuclear umbrella) when the soviet union was at it's peak because they all knew that without America's willingness to fight, Stalin's "iron curtain" would have descended on the west coast of Ireland. Western europe has become too much of a whining welfare state, as usual, America has to take the risks and lead the way, even against a criminal engaged in mass murder in their neighborhood for god's sake! The consequences of simply allowing criminal governments to run rampant are far worse than the risks of insulting the Russians or the Chinese. Oh they'll scream & howl, but they won't lift a finger to help their own people nor will they help Slob. M's gangsters. They know where their bread is buttered.

Frank i.t.s.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Bob Landry
Date: 06 Apr 99 - 05:09 PM

My initial reaction to the bombing of Serbia was, there it goes again. History is repeating itself because of greed, power, hatred, economics, you name it! There's a bad kid in the schoolyard and NATO countries, riding on the coat-tails of the US, are going to teach him a lesson.

As I watch the events unfold, my thoughts turn to the dispossessed people of Kosovo and the terrible anguish they are going through as they are killed outright or expelled from their homes and their country. This forced expulsion reminds me of the anguish my ancestors, the Acadians of Nova Scotia, suffered through hundreds of years of conflict, expulsion, exile and attempts to re-establish a vibrant culture and way of life.

I don't think this skirmish will not lead to WWIII. It will end one way or another and western leaders will bury their collective heads in the sand until the next time.

The longer-term tragedy is that the Serbs and the Kosovars will continue to hate each other ... just as other groups in the world will continue to hate. Because of this hatred, they will not accept the simple fact that people are people regardless of ethnic background, culture, religion and colour. We all have the same needs and concerns as people everywhere else. We want to make a living, live in peace, raise our families and enjoy life. We all have the ability to contribute to the world.

What really scares me is that, as civilized people, we seem to be unable to learn from the lessons from the past. And if we don't soon learn to appreciate each other for who we are, learn to live with each other in order to reach our full potential and learn to rejoice in each others' differences, we'll be witness to more of these wars. Future conflicts may literally reach our doorsteps.

There has to be a solution to this rampant suspicion and hatred of others. Other than saying we need statesmen with the skills and the gumption to guide us through what will be many more years of hatred and killing to peaceful co-existence, I wish I knew what it was.

Bob

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Bud Sherman
Date: 06 Apr 99 - 05:29 PM

It is very difficult to watch the news reports on CNN and the other networks and not feel a need to respond to the atrocities that are happening before our eyes.

While our American society is a long way from perfect, that does not mean that we must stand idly by and watch genocide occur. A jury in Texas found the white man guilty of the heinous murder of black man last year. A Wyoming court sentenced a man to two consecutive terms of life imprisonment for killing the gay student. Seventy years ago there wouldn't even have been a trial for these murders.

P.S. This thread is informative. Where else could I have discovered that Brazil is a member of NATO? (No place that I am aware of.)

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Apr 99 - 05:34 PM

I'm with you all but do you not think the key to this is our inability to bring the Saddam's and the Pinochet's to account for their crimes.

It is horrifing to me to see all the great legal brains giving all this consideration to Pinochet future, when he and the others do not give their victims any rights at all.

Anyone have any answers to this one?

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Bob Landry
Date: 06 Apr 99 - 05:59 PM

Shambles, here's my posting on another forum in reponse to the refusal of the ruling Liberal-led Canadian government to use constitutional powers to strike down a court decision in British Columbia that ruled possession of child pornography was legal. It may answer at least one of your questions.

Bob

--------

''Most Liberals are lawyers, Carol, twits trained to follow the principles of our judicial system, which is based on the law of case precedent. That means that when one bunch of twits (the House of Twits) passes a piece of legislation, the other twits (legal twits and judicial twits) must follow the law until a legal twit becomes inventive enough to convince a judicial twit that the law is wrong. This usually happens when a legal twit is discussing case precedent while doing illegal drugs with his twit buddies. The judicial twit is required to issue a ruling deeming the law to be unconstitutional, or contrary to the Charter of Rights, or prejudicial to a specific individual or group of individuals, thereby establishing a precedent. The remaining twits are required to follow the precedent in any subsequent court case or appeal until the case reaches the Court of Supreme Twits. If luck is on the side of the citizens (who, most of the time, are powerless to effect change), the Supreme Twits will rule on the side of what is right. More often than not, the Supreme Twits will adhere to case precedent established by other twits. Then the twit game starts over again. In the case of possession of child porn, the Liberal twits have decided not to use their own rules to overturn the judicial twit's decision (the Notwithstanding Clause, used only twice since our constitution was repatriated; Quebec - 1, Saskatchewan - 1, Canada - 0) and allow their friends, the legal and judicial twits, to fatten their wallets as part of a make-work project for legal and judicial twits.''

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: McMusic
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 12:54 AM

Only had the time to read a couple of the entries on the thread, Seed, but I swear, I think that, in spite of the end of the cold war and the so-called "peace dividend", I think the world--particularly Central Europe--is every bit as unsettled, and unsettling, as it was in those days when the Old World truly lost its innocence and the older established order came crashing down in the echoes of the gunfire at Sarejevo. It's not that I'm particularly ripped that NATO is doing what it's doing--the REAL truth to these affairs rarely comes to light in its own generation--but rather that it seems to me that there are Milosevics and Saddams and, God knows who else, all over the place. So we had Iraq, now there's Serbia. Where next?

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: LEJ
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 03:20 AM

Seed...To some extent I agree with your assessment that the Russians have been ignored since the commencement of the bombing, and that that scorn serves no purpose for them or for the west. But were they not closely involved in the negotiations that preceded this conflict, negotiations that resulted in an agreement that Milosevitch then proceeded to violate? And I don't buy the argument that mass genocide was a natural outgrowth of the sad state of the German economy. The US, as well as many other countries, saw their economies collapse in the 1930s. Our answer was the New Deal, and public works projects that left a lasting positive legacy. We were led by a brilliant and good man, the Germans by a brilliant evil one.

Hank...unfortunately, neither my Father or my Father-in-Law are in a position to do much research into American sympathies for the NAZI's in the 30s.I know that early on, prior to Hitler's implementation of The Final Solution, many were inclined to view him as a genius who had restored Germany's economy nearly overnight.If you are implying that there was any kind of support for the extermination of the Jewish people in the US...sure, we allow all kinds of maniacs the right to their own opinions.

AlistairUK..Agreed, we should have probably done more prior to the bombing to nip this in the bud- but how do you reach a rational understanding with an unreasonable government, bent on revenge? You can cajole, and you can threaten- then comes the tough part of following through on your threats...LEJ

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 04:06 AM

Lonesome, you counter my argument by leaving out the middle of it--and the ultra-nationalists in Russia are led by a man who seems very like Hitler in his anti-semitism and his expressed contempt for those he blames for letting the empire slip away (he even considers Alaska stolen from Russia). Do you see a Roosevelt available who can save Russia? --seed

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Pete M
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 07:42 AM

The short answer Seed is yes. The long answer may take a little time, if only to avoid repetition. I think that amongst all the points raised in this discussion the following stand out. I don't pretend to have any answers, and I'm not at all sure that in reality Blair or Clinton could have done things differently.

Yes we should have done more to prevent this happening, and I believe we could have done so. The opportunity was lost for a variety of reasons most of which have been touched on above, but include the desire to see a communist state collapse, the exploitation of Yugoslavia's economy by international corporations and good old self interest by other nations. There is no real parallel between post Tito Yugoslavia and post Versailles Germany in the causes of the situation, but the effect is the same, a discontented population looking for strong leadership, and a scapegoat. Of course if we had provided support to Yugoslavia and helped them to continue the path of federation set out by Tito there is no guarantee that this would not have happened, and there would always be someone to shout "appeasement" afterwards.

So, having got ourselves into this mess Stanley, how do we extricate ourselves?

I think the two things which worry me most about previous posts is the continued demonisation of individuals, in particular Hitler and President Milosovic, and the concern about, to use that ridiculous phrase dreamed up by Reagan "putting our boys 'in harms way.'".

The first worries me because anyone who has had any dealings at any level with people who commit atrocities will know that they are not monsters, they are the bloke or girl next door. The only difference between them and us is that they believe implicitly that what they are doing is right, and that they have a duty to ensure that the Serb/Irish/German/whoever's way of life is preserved. Also that this duty gives them the moral right to whatever action they consider necessary.

Now the second. If we assume we have a moral obligation to stop these two sides killing each other, the only way is to stand in the middle. That includes being hated, shot at and killed by both sides. I am not advocating the use of force, but if we (the West) decide that this is our only option, we should at least do our best, not take the line of least political risk. If I were Milosovic, I would make sure the army and armed police had clear and explicit orders to evict ethnic Albanians (to save them being hit in cross fire), destroy the villages (which were being used as strong points by the KLA) and drive them out of the area (to protect them) but not repeat not to harm anyone not clearly bearing arms. I could then say to the West that this was so and allow observers to travel with the troops to see it was so. Of course if in the night groups of irregular vigilantes with no connection to the armed forces killed, raped and massacred that is nothing to do with my government. Now, you're going to stop a killing squad of 4 or 5 armed with assault rifles with air power? Give me a break.

No, American, nor British, nor Dutch lives are not worth more than Serb lives, but if dozens must die to save thousands then so be it. I do not want my sons to have to die in any war, and I am not at all sure this is a war that can be justified on moral grounds, but equally I do not want politicians killing innocent people in my name rather than risk loosing an election by taking effective military action once that path is chosen.

I hope this does not read as if I am advocating military action as a solution, I believe it can only make things worse in the long run, but people who want the "baddie" punished but not at risk to "our boys" really annoy me.

So I've rambled on as usual, there are no answers here, but hopefully a new perspective or two. As to the future, yes I think a marginalised Russia is far more dangerous than the old USSR ever was, and that Europe as a whole and the UK in particular should be far more questioning about the US's motives in starting these conflicts. Will this Balkans war spread? I don't know, I don't think so, but that doesn't mean I'm not worried.

Pete M

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: AlistairUK
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 08:09 AM

Ok, so Milo has offered a ceasefire and wants to go back to the table and talk this thing through, what do Britain and the US do (plus the rest of NATO I suppose)? They carry on bombing! Way to go.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 10:31 AM

Pete M

I am with you on the fact that the dictators are not monsters but people like you and me. I don't know if I agree about their motives. It is more about maintaining their own power than anything else. The point is though there should and must be a way, if we are not to continue to see scenes like these forever, of making THEM, rather than their people responsible for whatever actions they do take. It may make them think twice before taking that action.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: AlistairUK
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 11:05 AM

Brazil actually was part of the peace keeping force in Rwanda last year (?)

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Bud Sherman
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 11:11 AM

What does Alistair's latest post have to do with the topic under discussion? If it is a rationale for his consiracy theory raised in his much earlier post that was disproved, it is very weak.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 05:03 PM

While I agree that Alistair's observation doesn't necessarily advance the argument one way or another, it certainly doesn't deserve Bud Sherman's put down--and who in hell has managed to prove anything in this thread? It is obvious that the bombing, as it was bound to be, is counter productive: the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo has been accelerated to the nth degree since the bombing started--about a third of the Kosavar population (mostly old men, women and children) has been driven out of the country (to get them out of the country, not to protect them), their homes destroyed so they'd have no place to which to return (not to deprive the KLA of defensible positions); the Serbian population, once seriously divided in their feelings for Milosevic and his programs, have been unified by the bombing. And the refusal to let the Easter cease fire be an opportunity for the reopening of negotiations is incomprehensible. --seed

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Pete M
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 05:44 PM

Hi Shambles,

yes you are right, I was not very clear in what I meant. What I was trying to get across is that if there is a significant section of a given population who has this "we are special, and everyone is against us" viewpoint, then they are prime fodder for anyone interested in gaining or maintaining power.

I do not believe Milosovic is either mad or a monster, he is exactly the same as Clinton, a supreme opportunist politician, and the only way to deal with him is at that level, ie make it worth his while, to do what we want by making it easier to get what he wants if he does so.

If anyone still thinks using external forces to stop the clearance of Kosovo is a viable option I suggest they study the history of Northern Ireland over the last forty years.

Pete M

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 06:47 PM

Pete, while Clinton may be a "supreme opportunist politician" but, I cannot believe that he would ever physically perpetrate such an action against American citizens, as Milosevic has against citizens of Yugoslavia.

There are elements in the U.S. who would love to do this to anyone who is not white, male-dominated, i.e. a whole LOT of us. They have what they call the Northwest Imperative. Their white supremacy plan is to take over the northwestern states of Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Colorado and Wyoming and have their own separate country sans gays, lesbians, feminists, mixed marriages and children, any ethnic minority, etc. etc.

I have been working with several human rights org. for the past several years and studied these groups a lot. I can tell you that they scare me a lot more than anything else going on right now. Yes, because they are in my face and backyard, but also because they use an insidious way of getting seemingly sane people to swallow their beliefs hook, line and sinker. Just like the religious right, they have inveigled themselves onto school boards, among clergy, banking positions, teaching and school principal positions, the list goes on.

Like zealots of old they preach their gospel of racial and other hatred to anyone with ears. In the not too distant past, they sent representatives, in Montana, to meetings a friend of mine was a guest speaker at. Their "goons" stood at the back of the room, hands across their chest, guns at their hips, doing their damnedest(sp?) to intimidate all in attendance.

Same friend attended an "expo" they put on in Denver, there they were with booths and info on how to get guns, ammo, store up food for "Armageddon", make your women obey and your children frearful, etc. It really was sickening.

The orgs. I've worked with recognise all of this is motivated by an extreme fear of anyone/thing that is different from them. To that end, they (the orgs.) seek to educate the general public about diversity and tolerance. They also realize that the white supremacists feel alienated and besieged, so they work on that angle, too.

Sorry, didn't mean to go so much, but had to say something about your comment re' Clinton, which got me to thinking about what I consider a real problem here in the States.

BTW, my youngest daughter, who is 21, has completed 2 yrs of criminal justice in college. From what she has learned there and from what she has felt ever since she was a little girl, she is convinced our country will see a violent revolution in her lifetime, and she's not thinking in her old age.

katl

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Pete M
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 10:16 PM

Hi Kat, now that is scary, its something I would never have known about if it wasn't for the 'Cat, sounds like someone has been reading Margaret Atwood and wants to try it. Lets just hope they don't get a leader as charismatic as JFK or Hitler.

I understand why you want to distinguish between Clinton and Milosovic, but, I don't know, perhaps I'm just older and more cynical. From his background, I think Milosovic would support Albanians 100% against the Serbs if he thought there was more political milage in it; and everything I have seen and heard suggests to me that Clinton would change his spots as easily and quickly. That's not intended as an attack on Clinton, I think it is "normal" behaviour for the sort of person who seeks power. Just to get back to folk, the Vicar of Bray could have been either of them.

As to your local goons, I wish you and your organisations luck, I agree education is the only way, but I'm not at all sure about the rationalisation that their behaviour (the goons that is) is based on fear. As I said somewhere else it is normal human behaviour to laugh at things you fear, or to to try and remove them from your area of influence, but I'm not at all sure it is valid to reverse the causal link in this way.

Best of luck anyway.

Pete M

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Apr 99 - 11:34 PM

Yes, Pete, agree, I am not sure about fear being the real motivating factor. I hope the directors of the human rights orgs. aren't just being polyannas, but I do know they have studied this for more years than I have known about it and that's a lot, so I am sure there is some validity to their belief. But, as you pointed out, with such elements, how can one ever be sure of how rational they really are? I personally am cautious about assuming they are rational at all! Thanks for your wish of luck. They really are scary. Many of them hide behind a facade of fundamentalist religion; one even has a radio broadcast which reaches quite a bit of the world, esp. North and South America.

Most Americans are not aware of them as an organised movement either. Most think it is isolated to a feww incidents like the white supremacists who held out on the farm in North Dakota a couple of years ago.

Now, for the really intersting part! Which Margaret Atwood book did you have in mind? I love her books. Have you read Alias Grace? I lived in Northampton MA when Handmaid's Tale, the movie came out. Watched it in a tiny arts theatre full of lesbians and feminists. Quite popular there.

katl

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 08 Apr 99 - 12:59 AM

Dear Kat, while driving home from the States two weeks ago I happened on a station that broadcasts programs called "Newswatch", which originate in Waxahatchee Texas. I am virtually unshockable and always welcome the opportunity to hear the odd "Rush", or Pat Buchanan, just to keep tabs on the folks who've turned hate into a virtue, and communicate so well that they almost make their arguments plausible. I was not prepared for the almost 2 hours worth of "Newswatch I heard. The vitriol absolutely defied description, and all nicely wrapped in pseudo-Christian theology. Part of the program dealt with the dragging death of the man in Texas, and part with the equally revolting death of the young gay man "crucified" by the two who are now on trial.

The good Reverend who plumbed depths I could hardly imagine, does NOT scare me. He is a sad and pathetic creature. The tens (hundreds) of thousands who listen to this station (reaching right across the States and into Canada) scare me a great deal. I wish I could say (like many others) that education is the answer, but I'm afraid that it's too little and MUCH too late.

Sorry to be such a downer. Better get to a Kazoo thread!

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Apr 99 - 02:54 AM

Thanks, Rick. There are some incredibly good and informative documentaries on all this which we have in our orgs. library. For anyone interested I will get the list and post it here in the enxt day or two. Several have been shown on PBS, including "Not in Our Town" and Not in Our Town II".

For those of you who saw the symbol a lot of us had in our windows and which was seen in CA and elsewhere, when Mathew Shephard, the gay college student,was killed, it was the "no" cicle with "hate" crossed out in the middle. Around the edge was "Wyoming - the Equality State". It was usually seen on yellow paper with black ink. I am proud to say I made that up on my computer and sent it out in about 400 emails to people who requested them from all over the US. We distributed thousands of them. It is still a constant struggle and I tire of it as the opposition seems so strong here in a state which has never caught up to the 20th century, let alone the 21st!

On a more positive note I wrote several op/ed pieces about an organisation which started up when Ken Starr kept going like the energiser bunny, called MoveOn.org. It is cyber grassroots at its best. For those of you who are interested and won't be offended by a decidedly opinionated and liberal piece, here is the last one, which explains how people can harness the Internet for grassroots organising:

"Congress Underestimates Resolve of the People"

Throughout the entire impeachment fiasco of President Clinton, I quite often find myself shaking my head at the apparent lunacy of Republican members of Congress. It's as though they've all become megalomaniacs. They are not listening to the people who voted them in as well as those who voted in President Clinton twice. Through the influence of the far right, their party has adopted a "we know better than you" attitude of self-righteous morality which has knocked the underpinnings out from under ourgovernment, taking away its stability and separation of powers. The on-line, grassroots movement known as "Censure & MoveOn", along with People for the American Way, an organisation which works on fairness and justice issues, are not about to let Congress, particularly members of the House, forget their flagrantactions with regards to the will of the people, President Clinton and his impeachment.

While they continue to pressure the Senate to "Censure and Move On", MoveOn.org also has started another simple pledge, "In the 2000 election, we will work to defeat Members of Congress who voted for impeachment or removal." Through this effort, they are recording the monetary pledges of members who agree to provide those funds directly to candidates in the 2000 election who openly oppose those members of Congress who supported impeachment of the President. They are not soliciting funds through MoveOn.org, just pledges.

Within one minute after Representatives voted to impeach, MoveOn.org notified its 450,000 petition drive members of this new effort. By the end of the next day, over 8,000 pledges were received with a total of over $5,000,000 in value. The "We will remember" pledge can be accessed at http://www.moveon.org.

As Joan Blades, one of MoveOn.org's co-founders put it, "Politicians think the public has a short memory...we will remember that these representatives did not reflect our values and did not hear our voice." Indeed, with the ease of the Internet, MoveOn.org promises members a simple process of selecting candidates and donation recipients, via "a few mouse clicks".

People for the American Way, a much older organisation, joined MoveOn.org, just before the impeachment process, with information on their website and coordination of toll-free phone lines through Working Assets Long Distance Company for citizens to call their Congresspeople. Phone lines were jammed. When I tried calling my representative's office, as well as those of key leaders in the House, I was put on hold; dumped out of the system; routed to answering machines which were unable to take anymore input; and one miraculous time, I actually spoke to a real live harried staffperson who clearly wished to be anywhere else but there. I never was able to use the PFAW toll-free number as it was constantly busy, which means a lot of Americans were tuning into the message of MoveOn.org and telling their representatives, in loud, clear and no uncertain terms to "Censure and Move On".

Congresspeople, especially those arrogant, self-righteous Republicans, who keep declaring their sureness that by the 2000 election this (the impeachment) will all be forgotten by the people are fools. They underestimate the resolve of ordinary citizens who have at their fingertips, and know how to use, the Internet, the most powerful lobbying, voting, public information tool this world has ever known.

When a thirty year old man started a business out of a garage in 1994, using the power of the Internet to sell goods and that man, at thirty-four is now worth an estimated $2 billion dollars, because his business, Amazon.com, has grown so much, it is hard to believe politicians can be so delusional or naive enough to believe, We, the People, can't use that power to remove them from office come the next election. It will be a great and good fortune for our country if democracy is finally protected and saved, brought back into balance, by the people, through use of what was originally a government tool. Here's to the Internet and People Power!

© 12/30/98 OoBraughLoo Press all rights reserved

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: AlistairUK
Date: 08 Apr 99 - 08:15 AM

Seed: thanks for coming to my defense. I did put the information there as a courtesy to give some information, not to enhance any argument. I didn't like the response and didn't think that it deemed a reply so that's why I said nothing. Obviously I have erred. forgive me.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: BuD Sherman
Date: 08 Apr 99 - 11:51 AM

Apparently it is fine for Alistair to spread disinformation and it is wrong to point out that what he is saying does not match the truth. (See his statement on 4/6 about "Brazil being a normally neutral member of NATO," etc.)

Anyone can look at an almanac and see that Brazil is not a member of NATO. Therefore the rest of his arguement about the economic pressures being brought on the Brazilian government are meaningless.

Perhaps I am wrong in thinking that intellectual honesty is required to help us understand the world and ourselves any better. Perhaps this thread is more desinged for the "flatworlders" among us.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: AlistairUK
Date: 08 Apr 99 - 12:01 PM

Well strike me down as being a flatworlder. I stand corrected. Like so many I get my information from the media...seing as no one actually cares too mauch about brazil, i go by what they say here. One news report stated that Brazil had signed the agreement that allowed the bombing runs to take place on Kosovo. What I mixed up was NATO and UN. I'm sorry Bud for being so ignorant, but I thank you once again for your gracious correction. I was just going to say Fuck you, but quite frankly I don't think you deserve that. Obviously you are a person that believes passionately in these ideals and I have no right to have such a knee-jerk reaction to how you have treated my (somewhat confused) comments.

yours standing humbly corrected

Alistair

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Bud Sherman
Date: 08 Apr 99 - 04:53 PM

Alistair, thanks for your kind message. So much of this world's problems are caused by misinformation. A lesson that I learned the very hard way. Hopefully I am not only sadder, but wiser. (No bets on the latter viewpoint are being accepted.)

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Pete M
Date: 08 Apr 99 - 06:50 PM

Kat, I can't quote any research, so this must be taken as my personal opinion and possibly incorrect, but I have a sneaking suspicion that many people who want to ascribe the "white supremicist" style of behaviour to fear of the unkown do so because they do not want to believe or contemplate the alternatives.

These alternatives of course range from the idea that some people love exercising power and for those unable to do it another way physical violence is a good option; to the idea that there is a provable gentic difference between races which justifes group A as defining themselves as superior.

the latter is of course anathema to "liberal" organisations, but unfortuantely for them, there are distinct racial "tags" at the genetic level, and since any so called test of behavioural difference only measures what you want, it is easy to define one which demonstrates your viewpoint. For example see S. J. Gould's "The mismeasure of man".

Personally I don't think there is any one reason which can be applied generically. Unlike Rick I don't think education is ever too late, but I do agree with him that it is not enough. Which brings us back to the same dilemma as the situation on Kosovo. How do you restrict the activities of these goons without causing greater harm to the general population?

Pete M

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Apr 99 - 08:26 PM

You are right, Pete. Well put. Thank you, esp as to education. I'll have to read the book you mentioned, but I do know many so-called authorities have used the genetic/behavioural thing as a basis for their viewpoint. As to the goons in Kosovo, I don't know. I just heard on NPR that the Macedonians are mistreating the refugees and tension in that, between the ethnicities, is starting to ehat up. I really hope that this is not an omen of what this may escalate to.

katl

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 09 Apr 99 - 01:47 AM

Pete, I guess I was reacting strictly from emotion when I said that education is a waste of time. I suppose even slowing down the inevitable is noble work. We don't know what will happen a week from now, but perhaps if we put effort into it we can have an effect on what happens tomorrow. The old "one day at a time" thing. I have sung a 1000 political songs at an equal number of rallies benefits and picket lines, and what I notice mostly is the distinct ageing of the same old caring activist folks who marched for Cesar Chavez's grape boycott a lot of years ago.

Just this week, a huge convention of far right fundamentalists converged on Toronto. Many of the people involved may not be directly linked to hate groups, but their silence most definitely gives tacit approval to those organisations. Not ONE city official has spoken out about this...and to think I was stupid enough to believe once that Canadians wanted no part of this kind of thing. Like Catspaw, I often resort to humour, one liners, puns, and occasionally misunderstood irony to cover how frustrated I feel about the behaviour of my species.

Other than that, I'm happy as a clam, love Heather and the cats, want to buy more old weird instruments, and truly appreciate the wisdom found on the Mudcat.

Rick

Subject: ADD: Seasons of Peace - Robert Beers
From:
Date: 09 Apr 99 - 10:26 PM

The Seasons of Peace
by Robert H. Beers

Peace is the child of spring,
Spring is the mother of May
May is the sister of love, Who
Wakes at the dawning of June,
Summer's the father of all,
Fall is the rustle of leaves,
Leaves and the colors of joy,
That grow in the seasons of Peace,

Snow is the blanket of hope,
Tending the cradle of peace,
For peace is the blessing of love
That sleeps on the bosom of spring,

Soft is the coming of love,
That walks with the mother of May,
Tender the moment in June,
When peace is the child of spring,

False are the bickering reigns of honor,
homeland in strife,
That nourish the torrents of hate,
and flow through the valleys of death,
Cold are the patriot winds
that scatter the bittering weed,
Strong are the seedlings of truth
that grow in the seasons of peace.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Apr 99 - 11:17 PM

Forgive my ignorance, but who is Beers and who posted this poem? It left me breathless with its beauty and clarity. Thank you!

katlaughing

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 09 Apr 99 - 11:23 PM

Robert Beers was knwn as Fiddler Beers and the founder of The Fox Hollow Folk Festival. he diedin a car accident on the Northway in NY 20 + years ago.

The two cents is mine.

Don

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Wotcha
Date: 09 Apr 99 - 11:26 PM

Another DT song springs to mind ... now that the Russians have allegedly retargeted their warheads on NATO countries ... A.L. Lloyd's Seamen's Hymn:

"...pray that the wars/And the tumult shall cease/For the greatest of gifts/Is a sweet lasting peace ...May the Lord put an end/To these cruel old wars/And bring peace and contentment/To all our brave tars."

Time for debate is over. Time to make peace with your Lord and pray for our lads who have to do our dirty work. Just don't spit on them when they come home this time.

Cheers, Brian

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Tom
Date: 10 Apr 99 - 01:49 PM

I was born in 1948, the son of two returning veterans, my mom and dad. Two years later we entered the Korean war. We're still there and the problem still unresolved. My childhood was spent growing in fear of the awful Russians and Chinese. One of my teachers lamented in front of our entire class that none of her students would live to their 21st birthday. Then came the cuban missle crisis. Castro is still there. Then Viet Nam. I was lucky, I didn't have to go to that land but was sent to Germany instead. Still I gave four years of my life to my country while others stayed home to start careers or meander in college. While stationed in San Francisco I was brow beat by activist even though I hated that stupid war too, and as a driver for a local post I did indeed see soldiers spit on at the airport. Other wars have followed as have crisis. Grenada, Somilia, Iran, Iraq, Bosnia now Kosovo. Tell me. To what end is this to sacrafice my three military aged sons for a war with no clear objective or planning? We are building future hatreds to involve my newly born grandson? The world is at a peak of prosperity, why is this godforsaken war necessary? I don't honestly know if there are conspiracies that involve oil companies or fringe lunatics taking over the western states. I do know I could see one of my children come home in one of those awful gray military coffins because a man sits in our White House trying to hide from the fact he thinks with what's behind his zipper. If the Albanians and the Serbs are hell bent on hate lets all load up some C141's with our surplus M16's, Ak47's and other fun things and let them shoot it out. Leave me and Mine alone. I have made many friends around the world on this net, and I have found wonderful people everywhere. That includes Russia, China, Yugoslavia too folks. To answer the original question that started all this...yes, I am scared, but there should be no reason for this fear if we would try to resolve these petty conflicts. The net is the start.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 04:39 PM

I note that this evening that the BBC is referring now to, 'The Balkan war'.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Penny
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 04:43 PM

I noticed that they mentioned Serbia was seeking an alliance with Russia and Belorussia.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 05:08 PM

I heard on NPR, people in the know, speculating about it possibly lasting five to ten years in a comparison with Vietnam discussion. Someone also said there should be more efforts to capture and try Milosevic before we put in ground troops, while still others said we've stalled long enough, send in ground troops and get it over with.

Read a really interesting editorial today (originally printed in the April 4th edition of the L.A. Times), by Bill Press, of CNN's Crossfire, about how, in 1992, George Bush failed to back Milan Panic, a Serb/American who with Bush's permission, accepted the position of Prime Minister in Yugoslavia (offered by Milisevic)on the condition that Milo step down. Milo did thinking Panic would be putty in his hands. Once Panic was in Belgrade, Milo reneged.

Panic ran in the election against Milosevic and lost mostly because of really blatant campaign fraud, state-controlled media which refused to air his campaign ads, and because the majority of people who were going to vote for Panic were university students who were told go home to vote and lose all education bennies or stay at school and keep your grants and housing. In addition tens of thousands were turned away from the polls and many mre found their names were removed from voting lists.

According to the editorial, Panic lost out on two important lines of support: when he appealed to the Bush administration for support and willingness to work with him, after the election, to lift sanctions and support a democratic economy, Bush remained silent for fear of alienating Milosevic. And, the Albanians in Kosovo boycotted the election, instead of backing someone who would have tried to bring democracy to the country, even after Milo had stripped them of their autonomy in 1989.

Anyway, the day after the election, an international team reported massive fraud and asked for a rematch, which Milo absolutely ignored. Press believes if the US had pitched in to help elect a democratic alternative, we might not be where we are over there now. BTW, Press worked for abrief time, over there, on Panic's election team.

Word from my niece in Aviano, Italy is it is tense, but they are all watching out for each other's safety. They had a birthday party for "bet's" 3 yr old grandson there, yesterday. Almost made it to his grandma's birthday!

A Plea for World Peace, indeed.

katlaughing

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: AlistairUK
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 05:52 PM

Just as I said somewhere down the thread there. NATO is breast beating and saying how awful Milosovic is, but when they had the chance to do something they never did. Instead prevaracating just in case they lose someone who could be their lacky in the Balkans. Just another example on the ineptitude of the World Government. Shambles...frightening...really frightening bit of new if the BBC are now calling it a war. Makes me glad that I now live on the other side of the world...coward that I am.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Pete M
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 07:29 PM

I think you are being a bit unfair on NATO Alistair, don't forget it's a military alliance, and as such its purpose is to fight not negotiate.

I do agree in principle as I said above, that the Western governments had the chance to prevent this situation but did nothing as you note. Supporting Panic was not the only option, if they, and unfortunately we are talking principally about the US, had put money and support into the Yugoslavian economy, or even made it easy for Yugoslavia to export to the US, there would not have been the undercurrent of resentment for Milosovic to exploit. I still believe we will have to do this in the end if we are to stabilise the area politically, so how much better it would have been to have done it first and avoided any bloodshed.

Personally I am far more inclined to the "cock up" theory of history rather than "conspiricy", but it is undeniable that the foreign policy of any government is dictated by the political realities of their electorate, and I do believe that the lobbying of the industrial military complex in the US and the need to maintain a "growing" economy took precedent over a more reasoned view of what would be the long term effects of abandoning the area to its own devices.

Pete M

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: ddw in windsor
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 09:12 PM

Hi everybody,

I've been away for a few days and was delighted when I came back to find such a stimulating thread on the go. Wish I'd been here earlier to stick in a point or two, but have found most of my thoughts echoed in previous postings from one person or another.

One thing I didn't find, however, is a question that's been bugging me from the git-go on this thing.

How would most 'Catters feel if a group from outside your area (Alistair, think of the French, U.S. 'Catters think of, say, Mexicans) and, after living there for a while without really being assimilated, decided they wanted to take a whole section of England/U.S. back into France/Mexico?

I'm still debating on the evil/opportunism of Milosevich, but I don't think it really matters in the long run. He used the age-old ploy of gaining political power by creating an enemy, pushing it (the KLA) to REALLY want out, and then pointing at it as a REALLY SERIOUS ENEMY. Sure way to win support, by unethical if not outright evil.

I have no solutions to all this, except to acknowledge that bombing without ground troops is never going to solve anything.

cheers

ddw

PS -- I'm scared too.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Pete M
Date: 12 Apr 99 - 09:20 PM

Good point ddw, I seem to recall it was tried in the US in the 1860's with much the same response as now. Not a direct parallel I grant you, but close enough to make me think we never learn.

Pete M

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: hank
Date: 13 Apr 99 - 09:13 AM

I hate to bring this back, but Kat, I currently know people who belive Nixon was a great guy who never did anything wrong. Sound stupid today? maybe... Remember the facts, Nixon has never been (creditably) accused of knowing about the breakins until after they happened. I don't beleive he should have stayed president, but his crimes were less serious then the ones Clinton admited to. Nixon was never under oath, Clinton was. Both are accused of obstruction of justice. think it over, do you really want to remember a lier? (Now maybe it isn't the level that he should be removed from office, but the constitution says specificly that the house should impeach him, and let the senate decide. looks like that is what happened) Those who think to target the opposition on this issue, from either side, are misguided. The core base (20% of the voters will vote republicans no matter what, 20% will vote democrate no matter what, 10% other parties. That leaves 25% of the voters that you need to sway to your side, and part of them are already inclined to beleive your side.) of each party beleives their party did the right thing, the democrat voters belive (been fooled) that this was only about sex, the republicans belive that truth and justice stood in the balance. The rest of the country is divided as well, but since Clinton is not up for relection they won't be voting on this issue. I can agree to disagree with anyone. I do wish they were operating on the same facts, and are not hypicritical in supporting those who think like us, but not the opposition in the same situation. I will not agree with the majority of the people reading this, but we do share a love for music. I am scared to death about Yugosolvia.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 13 Apr 99 - 10:24 AM

As I've noted several times in other threads, Bobby Kennedy is reputed to have said, "30% of the people are against (or for)everything all the time."

The strange and very sad irony of this is when the chaos factor introduces it's ever lurking and quite natural head into any of this. Then, all restraint goes out the window and WE are all caught up in the events and the fallout. Events and their own tumbling momentum seem to take over then. Control seems to be, and is, lost. That can be pretty scary, ie. this thread.

Good luck to us all!

Art

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 13 Apr 99 - 11:04 AM

History is full of situations where IF we had only done something, much MIGHT'VE been different. You all know about hindsight... If only we had stopped Hitler by getting into the Spanish Civil War in '37---Hitler never would"ve risen to power. If only Nevil Chamberlain hadn't swapped Czeck freedom for "peace in our time". What goes down, guys, is all that goes down. Pick history apart 'til the cows come home and we never learn from it. Yeah, it's sad. Yeah, I'm a pessimist. We all need to lean toward peace, but the beast is slouching toward Bethlehem as we speak---always is. Our choice? Whether or not to find the strength to toss Tolkien's "ring of power" into the searing heat of the Crack Of Doom, and in so doing, unmake it. Luck or prayer or fate or yin & yang--whatever it be---let's hope it takes root and grows strong and healthy--in our favor and not in "theirs".

Art

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 13 Apr 99 - 11:39 AM

The BBC have just reported that the Serbs have crossed into Albania, and are burning villages. Can somebody post the words to 'Pack up your Troubles'?
Scared? My heart is doing 140...

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: AlistairUK
Date: 13 Apr 99 - 11:51 AM

The problem with this coulda done something is, as Art says, common and often unstoppable. The difference in this case is that it was predicted, not too long ago, that this was coming. The UN and NATO were told by their own advisers what the situation would be and what type of man Milosovic is. What the serbs were capable of and what the ramifications of yugoslav seperatism would be. But nobody took a blind bit of notice!! As they say, Nobody learns from the past, or takes a blind bit of notice.

If it comes to it, there's always a place at my gaff here in BRAZIL if you want to get away from armageddon.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Ethan Mitchell
Date: 13 Apr 99 - 01:42 PM

I am actually somewhat encouraged by the recent reactions to Kosovo. I mean, violent US imperialism is sort of a given, and the tch-tch reactions on the left (eg here) is also sort of a given. Perhaps we are seeing even less reaction from the far left right now than I would expect...which is disappointing. But... I am impressed by the level of ambivalence which the US media and the US public is showing towards this war. OK, I'm like 22 years old, my experience of wartime patriotism is limited. But I have a pretty strong sense that this is new. The media has all their usual pro-US bias; without it the newscasters would probably all have coronaries. But they sound dubious about the whole thing, and they sound even more dubious about a ground war. They are critical of our tactics, not our ethics, but what it ammounts to is an improvement: the big boys throw a war and the little boys aren't sure they want to go. This is of enormous importance for the national psyche.

Alistair, I would love to drop by. But please...Brazil? Armageddon? Get away from? Huh? -Ethan

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Apr 99 - 06:46 AM

I have reached an age where the only thing I know for sure, is that I know nothing for sure.

The following song says what I think..............It would appear to me, more likely that we have created God in our image, rather than the other way round. We ALL seem capable of the most wonderful acts of kindness, bravery and charity and the same time, capable of the most unspeakable acts of stupidity, greed and cruelty. However most of us know how we SHOULD behave. It is the ones in power who, for their own ends, give us permission to act on those fears and prejudices and by doing so make them respectable, who should be held responsible. We must find a way of doing this, before they 'loose the tiger', in all of us.

Spare a thought for the ordinary young men in Serbia, struggling to hold on to the better side of their nature, faced with making choices I hope I do not ever have to make.

Can we at least agree to throw the term 'ethnic cleansing' to the dustbin of history, the word is GENOCIDE.

SUCH IS THE GOD

The rose and the thorn, fine fruit and the poison,

The soldier's warning, just a young man afraid.

Through the eyes of the uncertain and the cries of believers,

Such is the God, in who's image we're made

The body of man, the heart of a woman,

Songs of bright morning and the cool evening shade.

Through the eyes of the poets and lies of deceivers,

Such is the God, in who's image we're made.

You will find in the finest of gardens,

Some small place where the wild flowers grow.

You can't train children like a gardener trains roses,

You can't thin out you just reap what you sow.

Inquisitions and witch hunts and Final Solutions,

Moral pollution that defeats it's own ends.

The obvious answer, is it always the best one?

It's wise to question both your foe and your friend.

The rose and the thorn, fine fruit and the poison,

The soldier's warning, just a young man afraid.

Through the eyes of the uncertain and the cries of believers,

Such is the God, in who's image we're made

The body of man, the heart of a woman,

Songs of bright morning and the cool evening shade.

Through the eyes of the poets and lies of deceivers,

Such is the God, in who's image we're made.

Do you join in the song that everyone's singing?

Do you follow the path just because it's well trod?

Is faith just a way to avoid hard decisions?

Religions are man-made, not made by God.

Roger Gall 1996.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Cara
Date: 15 Apr 99 - 11:36 AM

I read this morning that NATO has admitted to accidentally bombing a mixed military/civilian convoy that contained refugees headed for the border. But, they hasten to add that the fault for the situation that caused this unfortunate incident lies with Milosevic. I suppose that's true, but the horror for those refugees...and then, there are reports that the Serbs used the attack as a cover to attack surviving refugees. There is so much evil in this situation. I'm usually so opinionated, and I cannot begin to imagine what a solution to this problem might be.

Reading Ethan's post above made me realize that my obsession with this situation might be influenced by my youth. It's the first major conflict that I have paid attention to with any sort of sophistication. I remember feeling panicky during the Gulf War, but not at this level. What can you do when the good guys aren't that great? It's U.S. sanctions that are creating starving displaced people in Iraq. I know it's part of some utilitarian foreign policy-the greatest good for the greatest number-but I think that Milosevic may be having similar thoughts, that his actions are for the greater good of his people. I understand the difference between using economic sanctions to try to stop another kind of evil, and what Milosevic is doing for some manifest destiny or whatever, but where does it end?

The more I learn about this the more horrified I become. How can the encroachment of evil be stopped, when you can't find a thing that isn't touched with it to hold up as a counterexample? I may not be making much sense, but I feel like the people in my day-to-day life aren't taking this all that seriously, and that only increases my alarm. I am certainly as scared as anyone. Is there even a best case scenario here?

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Neil Lowe
Date: 15 Apr 99 - 12:02 PM

Ok. Enough of this. It should be obvious that the good ole' American solution to this whole mess is for the U.S. to claim neutrality, sell enough arms to both sides to annihilate the world a few times over (big economical boon on the horizon, buy stocks in anything that supplies weaponry to the U.S. military- you heard it here first)- no matter if they can't pay for them, float them a loan until a winner emerges and then rebuild their economy in exchange for the privilege of establishing a strategic military base or, failing that, the right to whatever raw materials they have in abundance, and then win their hearts and minds with Coca-Cola and Nike's. The profit potential for American (or other country's)companies here is enormous. I'm going to check and see how Boeing's and Raytheon's stocks are doing right now....

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: ory conner
Date: 15 Apr 99 - 05:15 PM

if you really want to know what the u.s.a.`s REAL(not the official) reason for the war in yuogolsavia(or any war we get in),just look at how they treated the indians!They think they`re the only only one`s who know best,the only one`s that matter,and if you have something they want its ok to do anything possible to take it from you.

They dont give a shit about anyone,any thing,or any place!They want total control of all,and they will not stop the killing untill they get it all!

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Pete M
Date: 15 Apr 99 - 07:33 PM

If anyone has any illusions about there being "Good guys" and "Bad Guys" in this conflict they should read General Rose (one time head of UNPROFOR in Bosnia). The blatant exploitation and misuse of UN "Safe havens" by all factions to descredit the other side or to gain military or political advantage is incredible. Nor were/are any of the factions above firing on their own civilians and blaming it in some one else.

I think there is now a general consensus in NATO that the air action has facilitated the "Ethnic cleansing" of Kosovo rather than halted it. But the longer this policy is continued, the harder it is for the polititians to admit they were wrong and change.

Incidentally, Shambles, purely at the level of semantics, I'm not sure I agree with you about ethnic cleansing. To me there is a lot of difference between clearing all of group X out of an given area, even by force, and the deliberate attempt to exterminate all members of Group X. Of course the former may lead to the latter, but that doesn't alter the difference in intent.

Pete M

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Tucker
Date: 15 Apr 99 - 10:05 PM

Ory, I beg to differ with you. I dare say most of the letters here were written by americans. I don't want us involved in this mess either and like most americans I feel the indians got the shaft too.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Anguished from Scotland
Date: 15 Apr 99 - 10:22 PM

Yes. Is the simple answer. Scared for the whole damned lot of us. Because we are too stupid to realise we only have one bite at this dear cherry we choose to call life. And to waste it killing our neighbours is so inane. There is, of course, no solution to any of the conflicts anywhere. One man's "victory" is another's suppression- regardless. I weep every time I see any of these disposessed and humiliated people on every news bullitin.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: gargoyle
Date: 15 Apr 99 - 10:45 PM

I'M SCARED

That this topic is posted in the DT and not on:

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: gargoyle
Date: 15 Apr 99 - 10:54 PM

My dearest....
Most respected
and honorably, gracious Mr. Seed

May I suggest that you relieve your angst by composing a song and posting their lyrics to the DT.....

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Apr 99 - 11:48 PM

Gargoyle, dearest, BSeed is not the only one who is relieving angst! I, for one, am glad he started this thread! Now, I will warn you, that you will probably NOT want to go any further in this posting, because I doubt that you will approve.*smile* I was writing it while you were posting. Anyway, here goes:

Shambles: thank you for the posting of the song. It is so true and very eloquent.

Anguished in Scotland: your heart is in the right place, gawd love ya'.

WARNING: SOME MAY CONSIDER THIS TOO SOPORIFIC OR POLLYANNA, IF SO...WALKAWAY..A'FORE IT GITS YA!*smile*

I believe in the power of positive thinking, from personal experience. I believe that humankind's consciousness can have a profound effect on our world and its environment. To that end, I have been listening to the BBC on NPR and other programs on there to obtain news about this war. I very rarely watch images on tv, as I do not want my mind to perpetuate those images through constant viewing. Yes, I do think we each can have a responsibility to one another to keep as positive of an image in our minds as possible.

When a negative thought comes to mind, I usually tell it no thanks and replace with one of a better nature. I just read an article about how surgery patients are now being taught this type of visualization to facilitate their healing, allay their fears, and ensure that they expect to make a full recovery. They are told to imagine themselves doing their favourite activity after surgery, thus setting up that expectation of wellness.

In this and other threads, we have all proven we are intelligent, well-educated, and very caring, sensitive people. While it is good and neccesary to air our feelings and rant and rave, it is equally important and can be of more benefit, if we then fill our minds with a peaceful end to this conflict. Many of us doing this on a consistent basis can have an effect. Its like the old arrow trick in the old Westerns. One arrow can be broken easily, many arrows in a bundle are much harder, if not impossible to break. With all of the negative and fearful emotions let loose on the world through this war, we can be of service to others and ourselves by practising this peaceful and creative visualization, even if for just a few moments, once per day. It will have an effect.

By our connection with music, we do have a sense of higher consciousness which carries with it a responsibility in how we effect others, through performing, music therapy, our words and thoughts.

Okay, now we can go back to being "MudderPhoakers" (which is placed in the threads for the first time that I know of, for our newcomer, TonyB., who wondered if it was alright to call us "Mudder".)

Thanks for listening.

katlaughing, thinking about divinity school:-)

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 16 Apr 99 - 01:15 AM

Gargoyle, I don't suppose you read through the ninety messages before yours before posting your notes, but I think there are a lot of people who feel that the Mudcat is a community which transcends its putative subject matter. Politics is a frequent subject on threads; politics is a frequent subject of the music we love. If I had a song on the subject, I might have posted it to start just to satisfy you, or at least give you no thin little excuse to pick at me. If you are offended by my messages, you have my permission to ignore them. Just scroll on by. We'll both feel better.

Anyway, I talk politics with my friends, and I think I have a few of them here; at least I feel friendly toward them. If we can have a thread on Mudcat condoms, I don't think politics is too far over the line, and it seems a few score others feel the same. --seed

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From:
Date: 16 Apr 99 - 02:41 AM

Nomination for the intro to the mudcat book...."By our connection with music..." Night Owl

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Ethan Mitchell
Date: 16 Apr 99 - 09:15 AM

I second the nomination. Way to go, katlaughing. I said something like this on a different thread, but I'll say it again: talking about how awful everything is and how doomed we all are is only useful if it motivates us into overcoming that situation. We all love to kick our own ass about the world situation, but if we overdo it and despair at our ability to help anything, then all our concern and emotional is equivalent to doing nothing at all. Tucker--I don't think Ory was saying that all Americans are thoughtless, or even that Americans in general are thoughtless (although it is certainly an arguable point). I *think* the point is that US policy is incredibly arrogant and self-righteous. The Indian Wars were without question the largest and most succesful act of genocide in history, and I think Ory's comparison of that kind of policy-making to this current kind of policy-making is entirely accurate.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Apr 99 - 09:25 AM

Thanks,guys.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Tucker
Date: 16 Apr 99 - 11:19 AM

Ethan I really can't disagree with your point, and it is well taken. Just as children born after the war to German parents I had nothing to do with the genecide that happened to the Indians ( by the way, in addition to being a Scot/Irish transplant I have two cherokee great grandmothers, one of who I had the pleasure to know for a brief while). Although I served when called in the Viet Nam war, I hated it and protested it. Hell, I hate all war. Efforts to influnence American Policy are hard by a single person although I try hard at it. I write my representatives and the President and yes I vote. I feel it a futile effort anymore but I go through the process just the same. I wish all well and of course I respect everyones views here. I also agree with Bseeds last posting.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Apr 99 - 12:46 PM

Pete

You are probably right with the semantics. It's just that these words are thought up to make the un-thinkable appear respectable.

If we called a spade a spade may be we wouldn't have to use them so often to bury our dead?

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 16 Apr 99 - 01:33 PM

I'd like to apologize to the 'cat for again letting Gargoyle get my goat; I'll try to revive my New Year's resolution to resist the temptation.

More important, I would like to express my appreciation for the new members who have added so much to this thread, and others--Cara and Ethan, who despite their youth seem to have a lifetime of passion and wisdom, Tucker--a bit older and with first-hand experience of a nasty war; some with a bit longer tenure on the threads, notably the beautiful Katlaughing and Skarpi and Alistair and Night Owl the music therapist and Margarita; old friends like Frank of the Swamps and the Shambles and Rick and Don and Art the Thieme and Lonesome and Murray and Sandy and McMusic. There are lots more who added much to this discussion, but I've gotta stop sometime... --seed

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Ross
Date: 16 Apr 99 - 02:37 PM

What the heck... I've often wondered how the world watched 6 million Jews be killed, before stopping it. I'm not a fan of Clinton & his policies, & I don't know what we of the world "should" be doing, but I'm glad that at least something is being tried to stop it. As for the Indians, as far as I can tell, "my people" didn't do much to them. I think some bad things happened to them, & they did some bad things. Regardless there is no way that no one else would have come here by 1999 if the English/French/Germans hadn't. It would have been China, Japan, or Russia by now, so let's all move on.

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: LEJ
Date: 16 Apr 99 - 03:05 PM

I know these comments will open another can of worms, but I felt I had to respond to the statement by Ethan that the "Indian Wars were without question the largest and most successful act of genocide in history."

First of all, much of the decline of the eastern tribes was due to disease introduced by the white settlers. I suppose that could be called involuntary genocide if you have a tendency toward political correctness. Initial disputes between white settlers and native american tribes were compounded by the over wielding sanctity of property rights as practiced in white society, and the tradition of raiding and theft as a legitimate means of acquisition by the Indian. Another contributing factor was the bribery and use as mercenaries of tribes during the French and Indian Wars, and through the early 1800's. Scalping, which was a traditional means of gaining medicine from the victim by the slayer, became a means of paying bounties for the killing of enemy soldiers and settlers. Such a grim and violent behavior invited like behavior in return, and atrocities were continued by both white and indian.

Absorption became the rule for indian people who refused to be moved west by the settlers' expansion. I inherited Cherokee blood from my Great-Grandmother, whose family farmed alongside my Scots-Irish Great-Grandfather in Kentucky.But perhaps this absorption was also genocide.

As American expansion reached the Great Plains, conflict became inevitable between settlers, many of whom were scandinavian, German, Irish etc, and the tribes who claimed the vast territory as hunting ground. Violence ran particularly high between warlike tribes such as the Sioux,Cheyenne, Shoshone and Apache and these settlers. Acts of slaughter and dismemberment, which were common among warring tribes, created fear, horror and hate in the settlers and their Army protectors. Inexcusable acts of brutality were an outgrowth of this- Sand Creek and The Battle of the Washita as examples. Little Bighorn was another. In a bitter war of attrition, slaughter was carried out on both sides.

We still carry a legacy of prejudice and misunderstanding in America that stems from these events. Numerous treaty violations by the US government have done their part to perpetuate the mistrust. But today, American tribes find themselves powerful in terms of resource rights and land holdings, and with a great deal of political leverage as well. One of our two senators from Colorado is a full blooded Ute.

These are the historical facts of the history of white man and Indian in our country. Before comparisons are made with the gross extermination of millions of people in Europe in the 1940's are made, perhaps some attention should be paid to these facts.

LEJ

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: Ethan Mitchell
Date: 16 Apr 99 - 04:00 PM

OK. I'm off the topic. And I find it divisive and disingenuous to compare the legitimate sufferings of one people with the legitimate sufferings of another people. But here I am doing it anyway. During World War II, roughly 10 million were killed in cold blood, and another 40 million were killed during combat. During the US slave trade, it is estimated that 30 million Africans died during forced marches or shipping. The *lowest* figure I have seen for the death toll of the Native Americans is some 100 million. Yes, a great deal of that was involuntary infection. However, the intention and capability on the part of the Europeans was very clear, and in fact there is good evidence that here in the Northeast some of the spread of smallpox *was* intentional: the first biological warfare. Bartolome De Las Casas: 'Afterwards the Spaniards resolved to go and hunt the Indians who were in the mountains, where they perpetrated marvellous massacres. Thus they ruined and depopulated all this island...' Please, please, please, I am not interested in playing whose-is-bigger with anybody's grief. But I do not think the oppression of the (few) survivors of the Indian Wars is over, and I do not think we who are living on their land are in a position to say 'OK, let's put that behind us and move on.' And I think that it is precisely this kind of moral low-ground which allows America to carpet-bomb civilians in the name of democracy without feeling any dissonance. Bye, Bseed....I think I'll check out of here, too. It is getting hard to load...

Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am?
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Apr 99 - 05:38 AM

Hint taken. There is a new thread CLICK HERE