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Is anyone else as scared as I am?
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: The Shambles Date: 17 Apr 99 - 05:38 AM Hint taken. There is a new thread CLICK HERE |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: Ethan Mitchell Date: 16 Apr 99 - 04:00 PM OK. I'm off the topic. And I find it divisive and disingenuous to compare the legitimate sufferings of one people with the legitimate sufferings of another people. But here I am doing it anyway. During World War II, roughly 10 million were killed in cold blood, and another 40 million were killed during combat. During the US slave trade, it is estimated that 30 million Africans died during forced marches or shipping. The *lowest* figure I have seen for the death toll of the Native Americans is some 100 million. Yes, a great deal of that was involuntary infection. However, the intention and capability on the part of the Europeans was very clear, and in fact there is good evidence that here in the Northeast some of the spread of smallpox *was* intentional: the first biological warfare. Bartolome De Las Casas: 'Afterwards the Spaniards resolved to go and hunt the Indians who were in the mountains, where they perpetrated marvellous massacres. Thus they ruined and depopulated all this island...' Please, please, please, I am not interested in playing whose-is-bigger with anybody's grief. But I do not think the oppression of the (few) survivors of the Indian Wars is over, and I do not think we who are living on their land are in a position to say 'OK, let's put that behind us and move on.' And I think that it is precisely this kind of moral low-ground which allows America to carpet-bomb civilians in the name of democracy without feeling any dissonance. Bye, Bseed....I think I'll check out of here, too. It is getting hard to load... |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: LEJ Date: 16 Apr 99 - 03:05 PM I know these comments will open another can of worms, but I felt I had to respond to the statement by Ethan that the "Indian Wars were without question the largest and most successful act of genocide in history." First of all, much of the decline of the eastern tribes was due to disease introduced by the white settlers. I suppose that could be called involuntary genocide if you have a tendency toward political correctness. Initial disputes between white settlers and native american tribes were compounded by the over wielding sanctity of property rights as practiced in white society, and the tradition of raiding and theft as a legitimate means of acquisition by the Indian. Another contributing factor was the bribery and use as mercenaries of tribes during the French and Indian Wars, and through the early 1800's. Scalping, which was a traditional means of gaining medicine from the victim by the slayer, became a means of paying bounties for the killing of enemy soldiers and settlers. Such a grim and violent behavior invited like behavior in return, and atrocities were continued by both white and indian. Absorption became the rule for indian people who refused to be moved west by the settlers' expansion. I inherited Cherokee blood from my Great-Grandmother, whose family farmed alongside my Scots-Irish Great-Grandfather in Kentucky.But perhaps this absorption was also genocide. As American expansion reached the Great Plains, conflict became inevitable between settlers, many of whom were scandinavian, German, Irish etc, and the tribes who claimed the vast territory as hunting ground. Violence ran particularly high between warlike tribes such as the Sioux,Cheyenne, Shoshone and Apache and these settlers. Acts of slaughter and dismemberment, which were common among warring tribes, created fear, horror and hate in the settlers and their Army protectors. Inexcusable acts of brutality were an outgrowth of this- Sand Creek and The Battle of the Washita as examples. Little Bighorn was another. In a bitter war of attrition, slaughter was carried out on both sides. We still carry a legacy of prejudice and misunderstanding in America that stems from these events. Numerous treaty violations by the US government have done their part to perpetuate the mistrust. But today, American tribes find themselves powerful in terms of resource rights and land holdings, and with a great deal of political leverage as well. One of our two senators from Colorado is a full blooded Ute. These are the historical facts of the history of white man and Indian in our country. Before comparisons are made with the gross extermination of millions of people in Europe in the 1940's are made, perhaps some attention should be paid to these facts. LEJ |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: Ross Date: 16 Apr 99 - 02:37 PM What the heck... I've often wondered how the world watched 6 million Jews be killed, before stopping it. I'm not a fan of Clinton & his policies, & I don't know what we of the world "should" be doing, but I'm glad that at least something is being tried to stop it. As for the Indians, as far as I can tell, "my people" didn't do much to them. I think some bad things happened to them, & they did some bad things. Regardless there is no way that no one else would have come here by 1999 if the English/French/Germans hadn't. It would have been China, Japan, or Russia by now, so let's all move on. |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 16 Apr 99 - 01:33 PM I'd like to apologize to the 'cat for again letting Gargoyle get my goat; I'll try to revive my New Year's resolution to resist the temptation. More important, I would like to express my appreciation for the new members who have added so much to this thread, and others--Cara and Ethan, who despite their youth seem to have a lifetime of passion and wisdom, Tucker--a bit older and with first-hand experience of a nasty war; some with a bit longer tenure on the threads, notably the beautiful Katlaughing and Skarpi and Alistair and Night Owl the music therapist and Margarita; old friends like Frank of the Swamps and the Shambles and Rick and Don and Art the Thieme and Lonesome and Murray and Sandy and McMusic. There are lots more who added much to this discussion, but I've gotta stop sometime... --seed |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: The Shambles Date: 16 Apr 99 - 12:46 PM Pete You are probably right with the semantics. It's just that these words are thought up to make the un-thinkable appear respectable. If we called a spade a spade may be we wouldn't have to use them so often to bury our dead? |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: Tucker Date: 16 Apr 99 - 11:19 AM Ethan I really can't disagree with your point, and it is well taken. Just as children born after the war to German parents I had nothing to do with the genecide that happened to the Indians ( by the way, in addition to being a Scot/Irish transplant I have two cherokee great grandmothers, one of who I had the pleasure to know for a brief while). Although I served when called in the Viet Nam war, I hated it and protested it. Hell, I hate all war. Efforts to influnence American Policy are hard by a single person although I try hard at it. I write my representatives and the President and yes I vote. I feel it a futile effort anymore but I go through the process just the same. I wish all well and of course I respect everyones views here. I also agree with Bseeds last posting. |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: katlaughing Date: 16 Apr 99 - 09:25 AM Thanks,guys. |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: Ethan Mitchell Date: 16 Apr 99 - 09:15 AM I second the nomination. Way to go, katlaughing. I said something like this on a different thread, but I'll say it again: talking about how awful everything is and how doomed we all are is only useful if it motivates us into overcoming that situation. We all love to kick our own ass about the world situation, but if we overdo it and despair at our ability to help anything, then all our concern and emotional is equivalent to doing nothing at all. Tucker--I don't think Ory was saying that all Americans are thoughtless, or even that Americans in general are thoughtless (although it is certainly an arguable point). I *think* the point is that US policy is incredibly arrogant and self-righteous. The Indian Wars were without question the largest and most succesful act of genocide in history, and I think Ory's comparison of that kind of policy-making to this current kind of policy-making is entirely accurate. |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: Date: 16 Apr 99 - 02:41 AM Nomination for the intro to the mudcat book...."By our connection with music..." Night Owl |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 16 Apr 99 - 01:15 AM Gargoyle, I don't suppose you read through the ninety messages before yours before posting your notes, but I think there are a lot of people who feel that the Mudcat is a community which transcends its putative subject matter. Politics is a frequent subject on threads; politics is a frequent subject of the music we love. If I had a song on the subject, I might have posted it to start just to satisfy you, or at least give you no thin little excuse to pick at me. If you are offended by my messages, you have my permission to ignore them. Just scroll on by. We'll both feel better. Anyway, I talk politics with my friends, and I think I have a few of them here; at least I feel friendly toward them. If we can have a thread on Mudcat condoms, I don't think politics is too far over the line, and it seems a few score others feel the same. --seed |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: katlaughing Date: 15 Apr 99 - 11:48 PM Gargoyle, dearest, BSeed is not the only one who is relieving angst! I, for one, am glad he started this thread! Now, I will warn you, that you will probably NOT want to go any further in this posting, because I doubt that you will approve.*smile* I was writing it while you were posting. Anyway, here goes: Shambles: thank you for the posting of the song. It is so true and very eloquent. Anguished in Scotland: your heart is in the right place, gawd love ya'.
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: gargoyle Date: 15 Apr 99 - 10:54 PM My dearest.... Most respected and honorably, gracious Mr. Seed
May I suggest that you relieve your angst by composing a song and posting their lyrics to the DT..... |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: gargoyle Date: 15 Apr 99 - 10:45 PM I'M SCARED
That this topic is posted in the DT and not on: |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: Anguished from Scotland Date: 15 Apr 99 - 10:22 PM Yes. Is the simple answer. Scared for the whole damned lot of us. Because we are too stupid to realise we only have one bite at this dear cherry we choose to call life. And to waste it killing our neighbours is so inane. There is, of course, no solution to any of the conflicts anywhere. One man's "victory" is another's suppression- regardless. I weep every time I see any of these disposessed and humiliated people on every news bullitin. |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: Tucker Date: 15 Apr 99 - 10:05 PM Ory, I beg to differ with you. I dare say most of the letters here were written by americans. I don't want us involved in this mess either and like most americans I feel the indians got the shaft too. |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: Pete M Date: 15 Apr 99 - 07:33 PM If anyone has any illusions about there being "Good guys" and "Bad Guys" in this conflict they should read General Rose (one time head of UNPROFOR in Bosnia). The blatant exploitation and misuse of UN "Safe havens" by all factions to descredit the other side or to gain military or political advantage is incredible. Nor were/are any of the factions above firing on their own civilians and blaming it in some one else. I think there is now a general consensus in NATO that the air action has facilitated the "Ethnic cleansing" of Kosovo rather than halted it. But the longer this policy is continued, the harder it is for the polititians to admit they were wrong and change. Incidentally, Shambles, purely at the level of semantics, I'm not sure I agree with you about ethnic cleansing. To me there is a lot of difference between clearing all of group X out of an given area, even by force, and the deliberate attempt to exterminate all members of Group X. Of course the former may lead to the latter, but that doesn't alter the difference in intent. Pete M |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: ory conner Date: 15 Apr 99 - 05:15 PM if you really want to know what the u.s.a.`s REAL(not the official) reason for the war in yuogolsavia(or any war we get in),just look at how they treated the indians!They think they`re the only only one`s who know best,the only one`s that matter,and if you have something they want its ok to do anything possible to take it from you.
They dont give a shit about anyone,any thing,or any place!They want total control of all,and they will not stop the killing untill they get it all!
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: Neil Lowe Date: 15 Apr 99 - 12:02 PM Ok. Enough of this. It should be obvious that the good ole' American solution to this whole mess is for the U.S. to claim neutrality, sell enough arms to both sides to annihilate the world a few times over (big economical boon on the horizon, buy stocks in anything that supplies weaponry to the U.S. military- you heard it here first)- no matter if they can't pay for them, float them a loan until a winner emerges and then rebuild their economy in exchange for the privilege of establishing a strategic military base or, failing that, the right to whatever raw materials they have in abundance, and then win their hearts and minds with Coca-Cola and Nike's. The profit potential for American (or other country's)companies here is enormous. I'm going to check and see how Boeing's and Raytheon's stocks are doing right now.... |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: Cara Date: 15 Apr 99 - 11:36 AM I read this morning that NATO has admitted to accidentally bombing a mixed military/civilian convoy that contained refugees headed for the border. But, they hasten to add that the fault for the situation that caused this unfortunate incident lies with Milosevic. I suppose that's true, but the horror for those refugees...and then, there are reports that the Serbs used the attack as a cover to attack surviving refugees. There is so much evil in this situation. I'm usually so opinionated, and I cannot begin to imagine what a solution to this problem might be. Reading Ethan's post above made me realize that my obsession with this situation might be influenced by my youth. It's the first major conflict that I have paid attention to with any sort of sophistication. I remember feeling panicky during the Gulf War, but not at this level. What can you do when the good guys aren't that great? It's U.S. sanctions that are creating starving displaced people in Iraq. I know it's part of some utilitarian foreign policy-the greatest good for the greatest number-but I think that Milosevic may be having similar thoughts, that his actions are for the greater good of his people. I understand the difference between using economic sanctions to try to stop another kind of evil, and what Milosevic is doing for some manifest destiny or whatever, but where does it end? The more I learn about this the more horrified I become. How can the encroachment of evil be stopped, when you can't find a thing that isn't touched with it to hold up as a counterexample? I may not be making much sense, but I feel like the people in my day-to-day life aren't taking this all that seriously, and that only increases my alarm. I am certainly as scared as anyone. Is there even a best case scenario here? |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: The Shambles Date: 15 Apr 99 - 06:46 AM I have reached an age where the only thing I know for sure, is that I know nothing for sure. The following song says what I think..............It would appear to me, more likely that we have created God in our image, rather than the other way round. We ALL seem capable of the most wonderful acts of kindness, bravery and charity and the same time, capable of the most unspeakable acts of stupidity, greed and cruelty. However most of us know how we SHOULD behave. It is the ones in power who, for their own ends, give us permission to act on those fears and prejudices and by doing so make them respectable, who should be held responsible. We must find a way of doing this, before they 'loose the tiger', in all of us. Spare a thought for the ordinary young men in Serbia, struggling to hold on to the better side of their nature, faced with making choices I hope I do not ever have to make.
Can we at least agree to throw the term 'ethnic cleansing' to the dustbin of history, the word is GENOCIDE.
SUCH IS THE GOD
The rose and the thorn, fine fruit and the poison,
The soldier's warning, just a young man afraid.
Through the eyes of the uncertain and the cries of believers,
Such is the God, in who's image we're made
The body of man, the heart of a woman,
Songs of bright morning and the cool evening shade.
Through the eyes of the poets and lies of deceivers,
Such is the God, in who's image we're made.
You will find in the finest of gardens,
Some small place where the wild flowers grow.
You can't train children like a gardener trains roses,
You can't thin out you just reap what you sow.
Inquisitions and witch hunts and Final Solutions,
Moral pollution that defeats it's own ends.
The obvious answer, is it always the best one?
It's wise to question both your foe and your friend.
The rose and the thorn, fine fruit and the poison,
The soldier's warning, just a young man afraid.
Through the eyes of the uncertain and the cries of believers,
Such is the God, in who's image we're made
The body of man, the heart of a woman,
Songs of bright morning and the cool evening shade.
Through the eyes of the poets and lies of deceivers,
Such is the God, in who's image we're made.
Do you join in the song that everyone's singing?
Do you follow the path just because it's well trod?
Is faith just a way to avoid hard decisions?
Religions are man-made, not made by God. Roger Gall 1996. |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: Ethan Mitchell Date: 13 Apr 99 - 01:42 PM I am actually somewhat encouraged by the recent reactions to Kosovo. I mean, violent US imperialism is sort of a given, and the tch-tch reactions on the left (eg here) is also sort of a given. Perhaps we are seeing even less reaction from the far left right now than I would expect...which is disappointing. But... I am impressed by the level of ambivalence which the US media and the US public is showing towards this war. OK, I'm like 22 years old, my experience of wartime patriotism is limited. But I have a pretty strong sense that this is new. The media has all their usual pro-US bias; without it the newscasters would probably all have coronaries. But they sound dubious about the whole thing, and they sound even more dubious about a ground war. They are critical of our tactics, not our ethics, but what it ammounts to is an improvement: the big boys throw a war and the little boys aren't sure they want to go. This is of enormous importance for the national psyche. Alistair, I would love to drop by. But please...Brazil? Armageddon? Get away from? Huh? -Ethan |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: AlistairUK Date: 13 Apr 99 - 11:51 AM The problem with this coulda done something is, as Art says, common and often unstoppable. The difference in this case is that it was predicted, not too long ago, that this was coming. The UN and NATO were told by their own advisers what the situation would be and what type of man Milosovic is. What the serbs were capable of and what the ramifications of yugoslav seperatism would be. But nobody took a blind bit of notice!! As they say, Nobody learns from the past, or takes a blind bit of notice. If it comes to it, there's always a place at my gaff here in if you want to get away from armageddon. |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: The_one_and_only_Dai Date: 13 Apr 99 - 11:39 AM The BBC have just reported that the Serbs have crossed into Albania, and are burning villages. Can somebody post the words to 'Pack up your Troubles'? Scared? My heart is doing 140... |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: Art Thieme Date: 13 Apr 99 - 11:04 AM History is full of situations where IF we had only done something, much MIGHT'VE been different. You all know about hindsight... If only we had stopped Hitler by getting into the Spanish Civil War in '37---Hitler never would"ve risen to power. If only Nevil Chamberlain hadn't swapped Czeck freedom for "peace in our time". What goes down, guys, is all that goes down. Pick history apart 'til the cows come home and we never learn from it. Yeah, it's sad. Yeah, I'm a pessimist. We all need to lean toward peace, but the beast is slouching toward Bethlehem as we speak---always is. Our choice? Whether or not to find the strength to toss Tolkien's "ring of power" into the searing heat of the Crack Of Doom, and in so doing, unmake it. Luck or prayer or fate or yin & yang--whatever it be---let's hope it takes root and grows strong and healthy--in our favor and not in "theirs". Art |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: Art Thieme Date: 13 Apr 99 - 10:24 AM As I've noted several times in other threads, Bobby Kennedy is reputed to have said, "30% of the people are against (or for)everything all the time." The strange and very sad irony of this is when the chaos factor introduces it's ever lurking and quite natural head into any of this. Then, all restraint goes out the window and WE are all caught up in the events and the fallout. Events and their own tumbling momentum seem to take over then. Control seems to be, and is, lost. That can be pretty scary, ie. this thread. Good luck to us all! Art |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: hank Date: 13 Apr 99 - 09:13 AM I hate to bring this back, but Kat, I currently know people who belive Nixon was a great guy who never did anything wrong. Sound stupid today? maybe... Remember the facts, Nixon has never been (creditably) accused of knowing about the breakins until after they happened. I don't beleive he should have stayed president, but his crimes were less serious then the ones Clinton admited to. Nixon was never under oath, Clinton was. Both are accused of obstruction of justice. think it over, do you really want to remember a lier? (Now maybe it isn't the level that he should be removed from office, but the constitution says specificly that the house should impeach him, and let the senate decide. looks like that is what happened) Those who think to target the opposition on this issue, from either side, are misguided. The core base (20% of the voters will vote republicans no matter what, 20% will vote democrate no matter what, 10% other parties. That leaves 25% of the voters that you need to sway to your side, and part of them are already inclined to beleive your side.) of each party beleives their party did the right thing, the democrat voters belive (been fooled) that this was only about sex, the republicans belive that truth and justice stood in the balance. The rest of the country is divided as well, but since Clinton is not up for relection they won't be voting on this issue. I can agree to disagree with anyone. I do wish they were operating on the same facts, and are not hypicritical in supporting those who think like us, but not the opposition in the same situation. I will not agree with the majority of the people reading this, but we do share a love for music. I am scared to death about Yugosolvia. |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: Pete M Date: 12 Apr 99 - 09:20 PM Good point ddw, I seem to recall it was tried in the US in the 1860's with much the same response as now. Not a direct parallel I grant you, but close enough to make me think we never learn. Pete M |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: ddw in windsor Date: 12 Apr 99 - 09:12 PM Hi everybody, I've been away for a few days and was delighted when I came back to find such a stimulating thread on the go. Wish I'd been here earlier to stick in a point or two, but have found most of my thoughts echoed in previous postings from one person or another. One thing I didn't find, however, is a question that's been bugging me from the git-go on this thing. How would most 'Catters feel if a group from outside your area (Alistair, think of the French, U.S. 'Catters think of, say, Mexicans) and, after living there for a while without really being assimilated, decided they wanted to take a whole section of England/U.S. back into France/Mexico? I'm still debating on the evil/opportunism of Milosevich, but I don't think it really matters in the long run. He used the age-old ploy of gaining political power by creating an enemy, pushing it (the KLA) to REALLY want out, and then pointing at it as a REALLY SERIOUS ENEMY. Sure way to win support, by unethical if not outright evil. I have no solutions to all this, except to acknowledge that bombing without ground troops is never going to solve anything. cheers ddw PS -- I'm scared too. |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: Pete M Date: 12 Apr 99 - 07:29 PM I think you are being a bit unfair on NATO Alistair, don't forget it's a military alliance, and as such its purpose is to fight not negotiate. I do agree in principle as I said above, that the Western governments had the chance to prevent this situation but did nothing as you note. Supporting Panic was not the only option, if they, and unfortunately we are talking principally about the US, had put money and support into the Yugoslavian economy, or even made it easy for Yugoslavia to export to the US, there would not have been the undercurrent of resentment for Milosovic to exploit. I still believe we will have to do this in the end if we are to stabilise the area politically, so how much better it would have been to have done it first and avoided any bloodshed. Personally I am far more inclined to the "cock up" theory of history rather than "conspiricy", but it is undeniable that the foreign policy of any government is dictated by the political realities of their electorate, and I do believe that the lobbying of the industrial military complex in the US and the need to maintain a "growing" economy took precedent over a more reasoned view of what would be the long term effects of abandoning the area to its own devices. Pete M |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: AlistairUK Date: 12 Apr 99 - 05:52 PM Just as I said somewhere down the thread there. NATO is breast beating and saying how awful Milosovic is, but when they had the chance to do something they never did. Instead prevaracating just in case they lose someone who could be their lacky in the Balkans. Just another example on the ineptitude of the World Government. Shambles...frightening...really frightening bit of new if the BBC are now calling it a war. Makes me glad that I now live on the other side of the world...coward that I am. |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: katlaughing Date: 12 Apr 99 - 05:08 PM I heard on NPR, people in the know, speculating about it possibly lasting five to ten years in a comparison with Vietnam discussion. Someone also said there should be more efforts to capture and try Milosevic before we put in ground troops, while still others said we've stalled long enough, send in ground troops and get it over with. Read a really interesting editorial today (originally printed in the April 4th edition of the L.A. Times), by Bill Press, of CNN's Crossfire, about how, in 1992, George Bush failed to back Milan Panic, a Serb/American who with Bush's permission, accepted the position of Prime Minister in Yugoslavia (offered by Milisevic)on the condition that Milo step down. Milo did thinking Panic would be putty in his hands. Once Panic was in Belgrade, Milo reneged. Panic ran in the election against Milosevic and lost mostly because of really blatant campaign fraud, state-controlled media which refused to air his campaign ads, and because the majority of people who were going to vote for Panic were university students who were told go home to vote and lose all education bennies or stay at school and keep your grants and housing. In addition tens of thousands were turned away from the polls and many mre found their names were removed from voting lists. According to the editorial, Panic lost out on two important lines of support: when he appealed to the Bush administration for support and willingness to work with him, after the election, to lift sanctions and support a democratic economy, Bush remained silent for fear of alienating Milosevic. And, the Albanians in Kosovo boycotted the election, instead of backing someone who would have tried to bring democracy to the country, even after Milo had stripped them of their autonomy in 1989. Anyway, the day after the election, an international team reported massive fraud and asked for a rematch, which Milo absolutely ignored. Press believes if the US had pitched in to help elect a democratic alternative, we might not be where we are over there now. BTW, Press worked for abrief time, over there, on Panic's election team. Word from my niece in Aviano, Italy is it is tense, but they are all watching out for each other's safety. They had a birthday party for "bet's" 3 yr old grandson there, yesterday. Almost made it to his grandma's birthday! A Plea for World Peace, indeed. katlaughing |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: Penny Date: 12 Apr 99 - 04:43 PM I noticed that they mentioned Serbia was seeking an alliance with Russia and Belorussia. |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: The Shambles Date: 12 Apr 99 - 04:39 PM I note that this evening that the BBC is referring now to, 'The Balkan war'. |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: Tom Date: 10 Apr 99 - 01:49 PM I was born in 1948, the son of two returning veterans, my mom and dad. Two years later we entered the Korean war. We're still there and the problem still unresolved. My childhood was spent growing in fear of the awful Russians and Chinese. One of my teachers lamented in front of our entire class that none of her students would live to their 21st birthday. Then came the cuban missle crisis. Castro is still there. Then Viet Nam. I was lucky, I didn't have to go to that land but was sent to Germany instead. Still I gave four years of my life to my country while others stayed home to start careers or meander in college. While stationed in San Francisco I was brow beat by activist even though I hated that stupid war too, and as a driver for a local post I did indeed see soldiers spit on at the airport. Other wars have followed as have crisis. Grenada, Somilia, Iran, Iraq, Bosnia now Kosovo. Tell me. To what end is this to sacrafice my three military aged sons for a war with no clear objective or planning? We are building future hatreds to involve my newly born grandson? The world is at a peak of prosperity, why is this godforsaken war necessary? I don't honestly know if there are conspiracies that involve oil companies or fringe lunatics taking over the western states. I do know I could see one of my children come home in one of those awful gray military coffins because a man sits in our White House trying to hide from the fact he thinks with what's behind his zipper. If the Albanians and the Serbs are hell bent on hate lets all load up some C141's with our surplus M16's, Ak47's and other fun things and let them shoot it out. Leave me and Mine alone. I have made many friends around the world on this net, and I have found wonderful people everywhere. That includes Russia, China, Yugoslavia too folks. To answer the original question that started all this...yes, I am scared, but there should be no reason for this fear if we would try to resolve these petty conflicts. The net is the start. |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: Wotcha Date: 09 Apr 99 - 11:26 PM Another DT song springs to mind ... now that the Russians have allegedly retargeted their warheads on NATO countries ... A.L. Lloyd's Seamen's Hymn: "...pray that the wars/And the tumult shall cease/For the greatest of gifts/Is a sweet lasting peace ...May the Lord put an end/To these cruel old wars/And bring peace and contentment/To all our brave tars." Time for debate is over. Time to make peace with your Lord and pray for our lads who have to do our dirty work. Just don't spit on them when they come home this time. Cheers, Brian |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: DonMeixner Date: 09 Apr 99 - 11:23 PM Robert Beers was knwn as Fiddler Beers and the founder of The Fox Hollow Folk Festival. he diedin a car accident on the Northway in NY 20 + years ago. The two cents is mine. Don |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: katlaughing Date: 09 Apr 99 - 11:17 PM Forgive my ignorance, but who is Beers and who posted this poem? It left me breathless with its beauty and clarity. Thank you! katlaughing |
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Subject: ADD: Seasons of Peace - Robert Beers From: Date: 09 Apr 99 - 10:26 PM The Seasons of Peace by Robert H. Beers
Peace is the child of spring, |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: Rick Fielding Date: 09 Apr 99 - 01:47 AM Pete, I guess I was reacting strictly from emotion when I said that education is a waste of time. I suppose even slowing down the inevitable is noble work. We don't know what will happen a week from now, but perhaps if we put effort into it we can have an effect on what happens tomorrow. The old "one day at a time" thing. I have sung a 1000 political songs at an equal number of rallies benefits and picket lines, and what I notice mostly is the distinct ageing of the same old caring activist folks who marched for Cesar Chavez's grape boycott a lot of years ago.
Just this week, a huge convention of far right fundamentalists converged on Toronto. Many of the people involved may not be directly linked to hate groups, but their silence most definitely gives tacit approval to those organisations. Not ONE city official has spoken out about this...and to think I was stupid enough to believe once that Canadians wanted no part of this kind of thing. Like Catspaw, I often resort to humour, one liners, puns, and occasionally misunderstood irony to cover how frustrated I feel about the behaviour of my species.
Other than that, I'm happy as a clam, love Heather and the cats, want to buy more old weird instruments, and truly appreciate the wisdom found on the Mudcat. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: katlaughing Date: 08 Apr 99 - 08:26 PM You are right, Pete. Well put. Thank you, esp as to education. I'll have to read the book you mentioned, but I do know many so-called authorities have used the genetic/behavioural thing as a basis for their viewpoint. As to the goons in Kosovo, I don't know. I just heard on NPR that the Macedonians are mistreating the refugees and tension in that, between the ethnicities, is starting to ehat up. I really hope that this is not an omen of what this may escalate to. katl |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: Pete M Date: 08 Apr 99 - 06:50 PM Kat, I can't quote any research, so this must be taken as my personal opinion and possibly incorrect, but I have a sneaking suspicion that many people who want to ascribe the "white supremicist" style of behaviour to fear of the unkown do so because they do not want to believe or contemplate the alternatives. These alternatives of course range from the idea that some people love exercising power and for those unable to do it another way physical violence is a good option; to the idea that there is a provable gentic difference between races which justifes group A as defining themselves as superior. the latter is of course anathema to "liberal" organisations, but unfortuantely for them, there are distinct racial "tags" at the genetic level, and since any so called test of behavioural difference only measures what you want, it is easy to define one which demonstrates your viewpoint. For example see S. J. Gould's "The mismeasure of man". Personally I don't think there is any one reason which can be applied generically. Unlike Rick I don't think education is ever too late, but I do agree with him that it is not enough. Which brings us back to the same dilemma as the situation on Kosovo. How do you restrict the activities of these goons without causing greater harm to the general population? Pete M |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: Bud Sherman Date: 08 Apr 99 - 04:53 PM Alistair, thanks for your kind message. So much of this world's problems are caused by misinformation. A lesson that I learned the very hard way. Hopefully I am not only sadder, but wiser. (No bets on the latter viewpoint are being accepted.) |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: AlistairUK Date: 08 Apr 99 - 12:01 PM Well strike me down as being a flatworlder. I stand corrected. Like so many I get my information from the media...seing as no one actually cares too mauch about brazil, i go by what they say here. One news report stated that Brazil had signed the agreement that allowed the bombing runs to take place on Kosovo. What I mixed up was NATO and UN. I'm sorry Bud for being so ignorant, but I thank you once again for your gracious correction. I was just going to say Fuck you, but quite frankly I don't think you deserve that. Obviously you are a person that believes passionately in these ideals and I have no right to have such a knee-jerk reaction to how you have treated my (somewhat confused) comments. yours standing humbly corrected Alistair |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: BuD Sherman Date: 08 Apr 99 - 11:51 AM Apparently it is fine for Alistair to spread disinformation and it is wrong to point out that what he is saying does not match the truth. (See his statement on 4/6 about "Brazil being a normally neutral member of NATO," etc.) Anyone can look at an almanac and see that Brazil is not a member of NATO. Therefore the rest of his arguement about the economic pressures being brought on the Brazilian government are meaningless. Perhaps I am wrong in thinking that intellectual honesty is required to help us understand the world and ourselves any better. Perhaps this thread is more desinged for the "flatworlders" among us. |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: AlistairUK Date: 08 Apr 99 - 08:15 AM Seed: thanks for coming to my defense. I did put the information there as a courtesy to give some information, not to enhance any argument. I didn't like the response and didn't think that it deemed a reply so that's why I said nothing. Obviously I have erred. forgive me. |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: katlaughing Date: 08 Apr 99 - 02:54 AM Thanks, Rick. There are some incredibly good and informative documentaries on all this which we have in our orgs. library. For anyone interested I will get the list and post it here in the enxt day or two. Several have been shown on PBS, including "Not in Our Town" and Not in Our Town II". For those of you who saw the symbol a lot of us had in our windows and which was seen in CA and elsewhere, when Mathew Shephard, the gay college student,was killed, it was the "no" cicle with "hate" crossed out in the middle. Around the edge was "Wyoming - the Equality State". It was usually seen on yellow paper with black ink. I am proud to say I made that up on my computer and sent it out in about 400 emails to people who requested them from all over the US. We distributed thousands of them. It is still a constant struggle and I tire of it as the opposition seems so strong here in a state which has never caught up to the 20th century, let alone the 21st! On a more positive note I wrote several op/ed pieces about an organisation which started up when Ken Starr kept going like the energiser bunny, called MoveOn.org. It is cyber grassroots at its best. For those of you who are interested and won't be offended by a decidedly opinionated and liberal piece, here is the last one, which explains how people can harness the Internet for grassroots organising: "Congress Underestimates Resolve of the People" Throughout the entire impeachment fiasco of President Clinton, I quite often find myself shaking my head at the apparent lunacy of Republican members of Congress. It's as though they've all become megalomaniacs. They are not listening to the people who voted them in as well as those who voted in President Clinton twice. Through the influence of the far right, their party has adopted a "we know better than you" attitude of self-righteous morality which has knocked the underpinnings out from under ourgovernment, taking away its stability and separation of powers. The on-line, grassroots movement known as "Censure & MoveOn", along with People for the American Way, an organisation which works on fairness and justice issues, are not about to let Congress, particularly members of the House, forget their flagrantactions with regards to the will of the people, President Clinton and his impeachment. While they continue to pressure the Senate to "Censure and Move On", MoveOn.org also has started another simple pledge, "In the 2000 election, we will work to defeat Members of Congress who voted for impeachment or removal." Through this effort, they are recording the monetary pledges of members who agree to provide those funds directly to candidates in the 2000 election who openly oppose those members of Congress who supported impeachment of the President. They are not soliciting funds through MoveOn.org, just pledges. Within one minute after Representatives voted to impeach, MoveOn.org notified its 450,000 petition drive members of this new effort. By the end of the next day, over 8,000 pledges were received with a total of over $5,000,000 in value. The "We will remember" pledge can be accessed at http://www.moveon.org. As Joan Blades, one of MoveOn.org's co-founders put it, "Politicians think the public has a short memory...we will remember that these representatives did not reflect our values and did not hear our voice." Indeed, with the ease of the Internet, MoveOn.org promises members a simple process of selecting candidates and donation recipients, via "a few mouse clicks". People for the American Way, a much older organisation, joined MoveOn.org, just before the impeachment process, with information on their website and coordination of toll-free phone lines through Working Assets Long Distance Company for citizens to call their Congresspeople. Phone lines were jammed. When I tried calling my representative's office, as well as those of key leaders in the House, I was put on hold; dumped out of the system; routed to answering machines which were unable to take anymore input; and one miraculous time, I actually spoke to a real live harried staffperson who clearly wished to be anywhere else but there. I never was able to use the PFAW toll-free number as it was constantly busy, which means a lot of Americans were tuning into the message of MoveOn.org and telling their representatives, in loud, clear and no uncertain terms to "Censure and Move On". Congresspeople, especially those arrogant, self-righteous Republicans, who keep declaring their sureness that by the 2000 election this (the impeachment) will all be forgotten by the people are fools. They underestimate the resolve of ordinary citizens who have at their fingertips, and know how to use, the Internet, the most powerful lobbying, voting, public information tool this world has ever known. When a thirty year old man started a business out of a garage in 1994, using the power of the Internet to sell goods and that man, at thirty-four is now worth an estimated $2 billion dollars, because his business, Amazon.com, has grown so much, it is hard to believe politicians can be so delusional or naive enough to believe, We, the People, can't use that power to remove them from office come the next election. It will be a great and good fortune for our country if democracy is finally protected and saved, brought back into balance, by the people, through use of what was originally a government tool. Here's to the Internet and People Power! © 12/30/98 OoBraughLoo Press all rights reserved |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: Rick Fielding Date: 08 Apr 99 - 12:59 AM Dear Kat, while driving home from the States two weeks ago I happened on a station that broadcasts programs called "Newswatch", which originate in Waxahatchee Texas. I am virtually unshockable and always welcome the opportunity to hear the odd "Rush", or Pat Buchanan, just to keep tabs on the folks who've turned hate into a virtue, and communicate so well that they almost make their arguments plausible. I was not prepared for the almost 2 hours worth of "Newswatch I heard. The vitriol absolutely defied description, and all nicely wrapped in pseudo-Christian theology. Part of the program dealt with the dragging death of the man in Texas, and part with the equally revolting death of the young gay man "crucified" by the two who are now on trial.
The good Reverend who plumbed depths I could hardly imagine, does NOT scare me. He is a sad and pathetic creature. The tens (hundreds) of thousands who listen to this station (reaching right across the States and into Canada) scare me a great deal. I wish I could say (like many others) that education is the answer, but I'm afraid that it's too little and MUCH too late. Sorry to be such a downer. Better get to a Kazoo thread! |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: katlaughing Date: 07 Apr 99 - 11:34 PM Yes, Pete, agree, I am not sure about fear being the real motivating factor. I hope the directors of the human rights orgs. aren't just being polyannas, but I do know they have studied this for more years than I have known about it and that's a lot, so I am sure there is some validity to their belief. But, as you pointed out, with such elements, how can one ever be sure of how rational they really are? I personally am cautious about assuming they are rational at all! Thanks for your wish of luck. They really are scary. Many of them hide behind a facade of fundamentalist religion; one even has a radio broadcast which reaches quite a bit of the world, esp. North and South America. Most Americans are not aware of them as an organised movement either. Most think it is isolated to a feww incidents like the white supremacists who held out on the farm in North Dakota a couple of years ago. Now, for the really intersting part! Which Margaret Atwood book did you have in mind? I love her books. Have you read Alias Grace? I lived in Northampton MA when Handmaid's Tale, the movie came out. Watched it in a tiny arts theatre full of lesbians and feminists. Quite popular there. katl |
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Subject: RE: Is anyone else as scared as I am? From: Pete M Date: 07 Apr 99 - 10:16 PM Hi Kat, now that is scary, its something I would never have known about if it wasn't for the 'Cat, sounds like someone has been reading Margaret Atwood and wants to try it. Lets just hope they don't get a leader as charismatic as JFK or Hitler. I understand why you want to distinguish between Clinton and Milosovic, but, I don't know, perhaps I'm just older and more cynical. From his background, I think Milosovic would support Albanians 100% against the Serbs if he thought there was more political milage in it; and everything I have seen and heard suggests to me that Clinton would change his spots as easily and quickly. That's not intended as an attack on Clinton, I think it is "normal" behaviour for the sort of person who seeks power. Just to get back to folk, the Vicar of Bray could have been either of them. As to your local goons, I wish you and your organisations luck, I agree education is the only way, but I'm not at all sure about the rationalisation that their behaviour (the goons that is) is based on fear. As I said somewhere else it is normal human behaviour to laugh at things you fear, or to to try and remove them from your area of influence, but I'm not at all sure it is valid to reverse the causal link in this way. Best of luck anyway. Pete M |
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