BS: Justice For England, English protest songs

Subject: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Heed
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:29 AM

There is a demonstration that is taking place in Central London on May the 1st that is of striking significance in England. A group of English men and women have got together to protest against the union of Britain. Their discontent covers many issues, but they are an outward display of the simmering discontent from more and more English people over this government and it's perceived disregard of the English. I firstly want to shamelessly plug this demonstration and wonder whether there are any sympathisers here (or not for that matter), and, perhaps more relevantly, ask whether this discontent is beginning to appear in the folk songs of England, whether you agree with it or not. Is anybody writing about any of the following?

- West Lothian question (aka denying democracy and self determination to the English, but allowing it for the other home nations).
- Cancer drugs being denied the English.
- The Barnett formula.
- English having to pay for prescription charges.
- English students having to pay for student top up fees.
- English schools having to teach Britishness lessons, when other nations schools do not.
- England being split up into regions.
- A Scottish constituency soon-to-be pm that decides English only legislation, but can't decide Scottish policy because it is handled by the Scottish parliament.
- Ditto for ministries like health and education.
- Being told that the English don't exist as a nation.

If you are interested in the demonstration taking place then you can view more details here:

http://www.justiceforengland.com/may_march.htm

Thank you.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:47 AM

What a whingeing, divisive, xenophobic, site.
Scant surprise then that it's supported by that bunch of right-wing nutters, The 'Freedom' Association.
Personally, I resent strongly this latest attempt to hijack English traditional music for such low-down, divide-and-rule purposes.
Can some Joe clone please close the thread now before any benighted reader actually believes it?

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:02 AM

I'm afraid it's not a site for a bunch of right-wing nutters. I as a member of the Campaign for an English Parlaiment am going to the march purely to ask for the same rights as scotland: a parlaiment! I suggest you read a bit more deeply. I'm not a member of the freedom association, but was a memebr of the labour party. Sadly you attitude is just what many of us at the Campaign for an English Parliamnet loath: People who see those campaigning for the the same right as Scotland as xenophobic. This subject has received much more considered attention from the national press. Many of who see the benefits for a national paliament for england . Like i said do your research more thouroughly and don't give in in to knee jerk reactions. before you replay perhaps you had better reseach the barnett formula and the west lothian question. They were even mentioned on the bbc news last night!

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:07 AM

from the campaign for an english parlaiments web site:

"The people of England include everyone for whom England is both their home and future, irrespective of ethnic origin, religion and culture. For our nation our own parliament is our constitutional right"

re: http://www.thecep.org.uk/

still think we're "right wing"?

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:20 AM

If Guest: heed is so very concerned about 'England', perhaps s/he might pay more attention to its language, orthography and syntax.
I am sure most Mudcat posters are fully aware of the implications of the West Lothian question but fail to see any possible relevance to music.
German traditional music, used by the Nazis for such vile purposes, has yet to recover and re-emerge from university music departments.
This is no more than yet another attempt to draw in English trad into a narrow, fascist cesspit.
Don't let it. Music is universal and national descriptions are purely geographical, not an excuse for division on nationalistic lines.
This thread has no place in a music forum.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Barden of England
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:26 AM

I see that Countess Richard is guilty of the thing she constantly accuses others of not doing. I just hope she takes her own advice and actually reads the wording on the site. I can see nothing xenophobic in there, just asking for the same rights as others in the United Kingdon have. I wish we had the same laws as Scotland regarding live music for example. And before you go off on one Countess Richard I'm not xenophobic (I lived abroad happily for 4 years, and not in some British enclave), have no prejudice regarding race, creed or colour, and see legal immigrants to this country as a welcome addition. I hate the BNP and all it stands for, and as has been said before 'It's my flag and I want it back'. The Scots, Irish and Welsh proudly wave theirs, so why shouldn't I, especially on St. Georges day.
John Barden

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:27 AM

I don't see anything wrong with the site or the idea but I am prepared to be educated. What is wrong with a little bit of English 'nationalism' or national pride as long as it isn't exclusionist? The Irish, Scots and Welsh all have there own identity and governance - why not the English? Can anyone address the issues brought up by heed in the first post with sensible arguments as to why the English people are being treated differently to the other members of the union? And before I am accused of being a right wing xenophobic nutter I can assure you that nothing is further from the truth! Well, maybe the nutter bit. No-one who wants to introduce Morris dancing as a national pastime can be quite right in the head...

Cheers

Dave.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:33 AM

Oh - and I would recommend Show of Hands "Roots" for an anthem but I suspect the Countess will have something to say about that as well. But to try and get this online as a music thread here are the words anyway:-P

All away boys, let them go,
All in the wind and the rain and snow.
We've lost more than we'll ever know,
On the rocky shores of England.

Now it's been 25 years or more,
I've roamed this land from shore to shore.
From Tyne to Tame, or Severn to Thames,
From Moor to Vale, from Peak to Fen.
Played in cafes, and pubs and bars,
I've stood in the street with my own guitar.
But I'd be richer than all the rest,
If I had a pound for each request,
For "Duelling Banjos", "American Pie" -- it's enough to make you cry.
"Rule Britannia", or "Swing Lo",
Are they the only songs we English know?

Seed, bud, flower, fruit,
They're never gonna grow without their roots.
Branch, stem, shoots.
They need roots!

All away boys, let them go,
On the rocky shores of England.

After the speeches when the cake's been cut, the disco's over and the bar is shut.
At Christening, Birthday, Wedding or Wake,
What can we sing until the morning breaks?
When the Indian-Asians, Afro-Kelts -- it's in their blood below the belt.
They're playing and dancing all night long,
So what've they got right that we've got wrong?

Seed, bud, flower, fruit,
Never gonna grow without their roots.
Branch, stem, shoots.
We need roots!

And all away boys, let them go,
All in the wind and the rain and snow.
We've lost more than we'll ever know,
On the rocky shores of England.

All away boys, let them go,
All in the wind and the rain and snow.
We've lost more than we'll ever know,
On the rocky shores of England.

We need roots!

And the minister said his vision of hell is 3 folk singers in a pub near Wells.
Well I've got a vision of urban sprawl.
It's pubs where no one ever sings at all.
And everyone stares at a great big screen,
Overpaid soccer stars, prancing teens,
Australian soap, American rap, Estuary English, baseball caps.
And we learn to be ashamed before we walk,
Of the way we look and the way we talk.
Without our stories, or our songs,
How will we know where we come from?
I've lost St George in the Union Jack,
It's my flag too and I want it back!

Seed, bud, flower, fruit,
Never gonna grow without their roots.
Branch, stem, shoots.
We need roots!

And all away boys, let them go,
All in the wind and the rain and snow.
We've lost more than we'll ever know,
On the rocky shores of England.

All away boys, let them go,
All in the wind and the rain and snow.
We've lost more than we'll ever know,
On the rocky shores of England.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:36 AM

still think we're "right wing"?

Yes.
And I think that this forum is no place to try and advertise it.
John Barden, you're being taken in bigtime.
No, there's nothing at all wrong with loving your country but why stop at the borders and resent those who live across them?
I'm for the preservation and extension of democratic rights to everyone on Both Sides Of The Tweed, actually.
And totally against the hijacking of English trad as a symbol of racial superiority.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:37 AM

"heed is so very concerned about 'England', perhaps s/he might pay more attention to its language, orthography and syntax."

Would love to, but sadly i'm a product of thatcher's britain. And if my english skills are poor, why of earth does that not qualify from commenting on cetian issues? I see! You are arguing that because my english may be poor i'm not qualified to talk about "england". That sound liks facism to me. You nasty facist you! ;0)

On a more serious note, i agree that English trad (and any folk music) can be in danger of being mis appropriated by the far right. But surely it can be used for political protest songs. Didn't the proclaimers write a protest song about being ruled by england? is that okay? Or is that fascist? Didn't Chumbawamba cover english protest songs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Rebel_Songs_1381-1984 .Why can't they be used to question the west lothion question?

Look, maybe i'm being a little niave, and maybe i should have separated the two subjects of the demo and the music. I appologise for this. But the question remains. Are such issues as the west lothina question, barnett formula, coming into folk music? And i suppose we should extend that by saying are they relevant subjects?

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:39 AM

but why stop at the borders and resent those who live across them?


Has anyone remotely suggested that there is any resentment for other Btitons? I think not. I am more than happy for the other nations to get free prescriptions, higher education etc. and good luck to them. All I need to see is a decent valid argument as to why the English should not benefit as well.

Dave

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:40 AM

Omigod, fucking SoH again.
Roots is a socially divisive rant and it was quite amusing when Mr Knighley struggled to defend his derorgatory reference to 'estuary English' on Radio Essex.
Outta here.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:42 AM

Good:-)

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:44 AM

Apologies for the typo in 'derogatory'.
Fascist loonies make my hands shake.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:47 AM

"Fascist loonies make my hands shake. "
Well that's not me. But you certainly make my head shake in wonder.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:58 AM

I suppose it must be me then, heed. Brought up by a father who left Poland in WW2 to escape the German right wing and Russian left wing facists and a part Welsh, part English Mother who hated anything to do with political interference. I must be the typical Nazi - betrayed by the fact that I regulary visit my Jewish, Moslem and Hindu friends and have been asked to arrange some 'typicaly English' folk acts at the local West Indian community centre.

Don't worry about it, heed. Facist is an oft used term here. Usualy applied to someone who disagrees with the viewpoints of some members.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 06:23 AM

'Fascist' is a term which is, and will continue to be, used by me towards right-wing, narrow-minded little Englanders who stir up hatred against anyone who is 'different' or who has or appears to have something they want. Divide and rule: we want it and you can't have it. Whether you call it a flag, a house, a job or whatever, it comes down to one thing: power. The tragic (or maybe it's not) point is that it doesn't end up empowering them but those who pull the strings.

Whatever, such nasty propaganda has no place on a music forum except when it's a matter of music being hijacked for the aims of the far right. You haven't heard of this? Go and research those artists who have had to fight to get their work or any mention of it wrested from the publicity machines of such filthy outfits. Then go figure.

Really gone.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 06:37 AM

whoops pressed wrong button there.
My great grandmother was a gypsy! Not saying which one though! Grandmother that is, not what gypsy she was.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Grab
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 06:41 AM

English schools having to teach Britishness lessons, when other nations schools do not.

Check out Wales. What else do you think compulsory Welsh lessons are for? As far as "Britishness lessons" goes, those are a measure of immigrant numbers - Wales and Scotland are notably short on immigrants compared to English cities.

England being split up into regions.

It's a big place, with a lot of people. Where I live in Cambridge has a lot in common with London and Kent economy-wise. Where I lived before in Stafford is a very different place. And Lancashire (where I was brought up) is different again.

- English having to pay for prescription charges.
- English students having to pay for student top up fees.

Each area has a limited pot of money, and it depends on how they choose to spend it. Both of those come at a cost of other services.

FWIW, the Scots also have a legitimate grievance in that North Sea oil and gas is *Scottish* not English. Scotland is supporting England in that respect, not vice versa.

Being told that the English don't exist as a nation.

Are we? Certainly the papers like to try it, but that's usually as a straw man to push the argument the other way.

Graham.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Barden of England
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 06:44 AM

I don't believe I'm being taken in Countess Richard, but I'm with you all the way regarding democratic rights to everyone on Both Sides Of The Tweed, something which unfortunately we really don't have, also regarding the hijacking of English trad for the loathsome few who preach racial superiority. I do worry however that whenever I want to celebrate my English heritage (although of course with a surname like mine you can also see my Irish Heritage, and my mother being a Brown, my Scottish heritage) by showing George's flag, I am perceived as being racially abusive. Some do abuse it, but there is a vast majority who shouldn't be painted with that same brush. I just want to celebrate in the same manner as the Scots, Welsh and Irish do.

Finally, I also agree that this should be below the line.
John Barden

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 06:44 AM

so to ask the question again, and to ignore the issue of the march

"Are such issues as the west lothian question, barnett formula, coming into folk music? And i suppose we should extend that by saying are they relevant subjects?"

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 07:11 AM

Funny, I often agree with you Countess, but this time I think it is you who is displaying the prejudice.

Incidentally, are you the same Countess Richard as the Countess Richard on myspace? My "friend" request (please do NOT out my identity there here) made on that assumption is unanswered.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 07:28 AM

I am really puzzled now. I read the site quoted and could find no "Narrow-minded little Englanders" stiring up hatred against anything or anyone. So I read it again, more carefully, and still can see none. Nor can I find any evidence of facism, right wing or otherwise, in there. Just where is the "nasty propaganda" or evidence of "filthy outfits". Can anyone find me examples of anything malicious on the quoted site or even anything that can be vaguely construes as racist? If so I will happily steer clear but until such a time as they are proven guilty I don't see how I can consider them anything other than innocent.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 07:30 AM

It's people like the Countess who have made me reluctant to sign up as a Mudcat memeber - her first response to something she doesn't agree with is to ask for it to be removed.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 07:44 AM

Don't you people know who The 'Freedom' Association are?

I think such a blatant, non-music-related plug ought to be removed because it has nothing to do with music except obliquely, as a threat to hijack English music by the nasty right.

And we would be spared even more idiotic outpourings of Roots.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 08:02 AM

I don't know who the freedon association are, and i'm going on the march. Perhaps i should have found out. However, i am a member of the campaign for an english parliament, who are a single issue cause group. I can repreat what i said earlier about it campaigning for an english parlaiment for all the people of england, even you countess. I have been a bit cheeky by combining the two issue, the demo and whether the issues of such protests will appear in protest songs. Perhaps i should have separated them into separate threads. Sorry for that. But I am genuinily interested to know whether the constitutional irregulities and unfainess that is the result of devolution will appear in protest songs. Put like that then maybe not, because if appears dry and boring. But when explained as the english being denied the right to self determination, fairness and democracy, which in my opionion we clearly are, then i would suggest that the are quite legitimate and very now! incidently i do not blame the scots or welsh for this, i blame this government and their power crazy tendencies.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 08:05 AM

It seems the march organisers and some of the people going on the march have similar concers as you. to quote from the site:

"Some people have expressed concern about far right groups infiltrating our rally to further their own agendas.
- First and foremost, this is a peaceful, non-political rally that will be supported by families, children, pensioners and the infirm. Although we would obviously like to see as many people as possible there, it must not be at the expense of the
integrity of the majority."

re: http://www.justiceforengland.com/may_march.htm

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 08:07 AM

Anyone know the difference between the nasty right and the nasty left? They've always struck me as being pretty similar.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 08:32 AM

I don't know who the freedom association are either but this is NOT their site anyway. There is a link to their site, along with a link to Connexus web hosting and the Englsh music festival. Are all these nasty right wing organisations?

I followed the link by the way. All I could see was an association founded in 1975 by a guy who has won a VC and the McWhirter twins (Of Guiness book of records fame). It must have been shortly after it's formation that Ross McWhirter was shot by the IRA although I don't know if that is in any way significant. The organisation now seems primarily concerned with getting the UK out of the EU. There is no sign, as far as I can see, of any hidden facist agenda.

I say the UK specificaly above to answer the question someone raised about who was suggesting that England does not exist. Well, try the EU. Scotland and Wales are both countries in their own rights according to the EU because they have their own governments or assemblies. England is not classed as a country because it does not have a government. I am in no way suggesting that anything should change for the other British countries. I am not decrying anything they have done. All I am asking for is the same treatment for England.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 08:44 AM

The McWhirters' Freedom Association was indeed a nasty right wing union bashing organisation, and I would much rather not be in bed with them (or the IRA). But baby, bathwater, you know?

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 08:45 AM

And I rather like "Roots" the song, and I strongly dislike estuarine English.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 08:48 AM

Eeeek. Don't remember them but I was not politicaly motivated at all in the 70's. Looking at their website now it seems that they have a different agenda.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 09:01 AM

As to the union bashing - Not my scene at all but right wing union bashers were a direct backlash to the envisaged control that left wing unions had on the country. Whether it was real or imagined is accademic now but without one we would not have had the other. As to who started it - who knows or cares now? In either case it has very little to do with the Justice for England campaign but as usual red herrings have been thrown in the way of some very sensible ideas.

At the end of the day there is little point in discussing it. There will be peple who will never agree and they are as entitled to their opinions as anyone else. I do wish however that the politicaly correct, better than everyone else, brigade would stop labeling all of us who disagree with their narrow viewpoints as right wing facists.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 09:13 AM

At the press launch of the National Association For Freedom (as it was in 1975), Norris McWhirter appeared alone, his twin brother Ross having been killed a day or two earlier. Their agenda then was somewhat different from now as it consisted of crushing Asian workers' struggle for union recognition and getting Thatcher elected. Nowadays of course Grunwick-stylee working conditions are the norm and they look for different ways to divide society. 'Englishness' will do but it's still fascism. Nick Griffin on The World At One (BBC Radio News programme) was only a few minutes ago expanding on how the BNP was moving into English market towns with very low levels of immigration, canvassing votes from those whom its adherants were convincing to vote for them and 'keep the East Europeans out'.

None of which, of course, has anything to do with music . . . except that in Another Place only yesterday I read an anti-Polish 'joke' from a resident racist who has hitherto specialised in describing African music as 'bonga-bonga'.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Stu
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 09:39 AM

The McWhirters were rabid right-wingers and not really very nice people IMHO, and The Freedom Association seem to have carried on their tradition of small-minded tory tosserdom into the 21st Century. Any organisation that has Norman Tebbit as a member strikes me as being deeply suspect.

But Countess Richard often flings in words like 'Xenophobic' and 'facist' whenever any discussion on the subject of English national identity cames up (and avoids debate - slagging off people's spelling and grammar is not a good debating skill - it's a poor attempt to belittle the other person involved in the discourse). I suppose she thinks Billy Bragg, Coope Boyes and Simpson, Mike Harding and Tom Robinson are all right-wing facist bigots for supporting 'Roots' as a manifesto for English culture in popular culture.

Anyway, I feel ambivalent towards the idea of an English Parliament (preferring regional assemblies, which would allow the various regions to be more independent of any power base in the South East of the country). The West Lothian question needs addressing in some way whatever happens.

One thing I would agree with the countess on though is the appropriation of traditional music by any political organisation is to be thundered against. However, the role of individual political activism in folk music (especially during the revival) can't be denied, and has provided us with some fine music over the years.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 10:14 AM

No I don't. I EMPLOY words like 'xenophobic' and 'fascist' because I know how to spell them and because, in the context of English national identity they are apposite. And I don't criticise poor grammar and spelling as a substitute for debate but to emphasise that those who cannot be arsed to use the language correctly make it extremely difficult (as in this case) to determine just what (if anything) they are on about. Thatcher is to blame for many things but I hardly think a person's inadequacy of expression is anything but their own fault.

And you suppose wrongly that I think anything of the sort about those to whom you ascribe an opinion about a Knightley song. Most people know that musically, I myself consider Roots mediocre and lyrically, socially divisive bordering on racist. I don't actually know what any of the people you list (with the exception of Mike Harding, ha!) think about it, nor am I bothered. (Though I'm pretty damn sure Mr Bragg doesn't prefer it to his own song . . . )

In fact you miss the point entirely (why doesn't that surprise me in a forum where actually reading the thread is an option rarely exercised?) I am objecting to the publicising of a reactionary demonstration on Mayday of all days in an inappropriate forum. Though since it IS here (and apparently here to stay, I'm taking the opportunity to warn against the danger of the misappropriation of English music by those unfit to touch it.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 10:19 AM

'I, myself.......?'

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 10:38 AM

countess
I will add that you do seem to have a tendency to dismiss people's ability/intelligence if you disagree strongly with their opinion. You dismiss my opinion because of my grasp of english (subtext: i'm stupid). You then do it again because i can't be "arsed" (subtext: i'm lazy). Then you dismiss other people for not reading the thread (subtext: stupid and lazy). Give people a bit of credit please.

You are right about my english. It's not the best is it? Me and my reliance on a spell checker is probably to blame, but it's not that i can't be arsed. It's just that i don't have your quality of english, at least in terms of the language, not necessarily about the issues of english identity.

Anyway, i'm off to read "eats, roots and leaves". I think it's about an irate folkie who gets so angry with the show of hands song that he has to consume every copy of it. But i might be wrong.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 11:05 AM

I have to say, I think the title "Justice for England" is rather emotive and stirs up the wrong sort of sentiment. But if you want people to assume your politics are of the Daily Mail variety, it's a perfectly good title to use...

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 11:44 AM

"Justice for England is rather emotive and stirs up the wrong sort of sentiment". Why should it be like that? It's the dreaded E word isn't it? England = nasty? The aims of the march and particularly benign, and non - treatening. It is really about issues such as an English parliament (or lack of it), the Barnett formula etc...

I believe the union is on its last legs. SNP winning the election in Scotland, and English only legislation being decided by a Scottish constituency mp (Gordon Brown will effectively be first minister of England) will bring these issues more to the fore. They can't be ignored but they can be dealt with reasonably.

ref: civic english nationalism
re: http://www.thecep.org.uk/news/ViewItem.asp?Entry=731

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 11:55 AM

Do I detect a subtext from the antis here? An English parliament would produce (whisper it...............) a Tory government and that's more than some contributors to this thread could countenance. Mind you, given ten years of Tony Blair, would they be able to tell the difference?

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 11:58 AM

An english parliament wouldn't necessarily produce a tory gov, if elected by pr. More likely a lib-lab pact.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Stu
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:02 PM

"In fact you miss the point entirely"

Perhaps I did, probably because the point was poorly argued and obscured by polemic and vitriol. This tirade against people's ability to spell and write reeks of snobbishness and intolerance.

The assumption Messrs Bragg et al support the sentiment of Roots isn't unreasonable as they sang on it. Harding seems to play it on a weekly basis (and had Knightly on the show this week defending himself against the very criticism you level at him). Whether it's better or worse than anything Billy Bragg has done is utterly irrelevant - and subjective.

Are words like 'xenophobic' and 'facist' apposite to the issue English cutural identity? They are if they are the only aspects of the subject that are discussed. Whilst the perceived right-wing overtones of English nationalism are well-known, the idea that English identity has to forever associated with them is tantamount to capitulating to this unpalatable and disturbing doctrine.

Truth is, there is a movement to reclaiming an inclusive, multicultural English identity similar to the one's enjoyed by the Irish, Scottish and Welsh. When the English football team plays, flags appear everywhere in a show of support and are flown and waved without people feeling racist, right-wing or self-conscious. It removes the feeling of partialness that is at the core of English self-doubt about their roots and place in the world, even if only for a short time.

Most people don't have any exposure or interest in traditional English music or dance - this is a cultural reference that is lost on them and in some ways many folk musicians are happy to keep it that way - you sense the disdain shown for popular culture from the holier-than-thou brigade when you read some of the posts here on Mudcat and other forums where the presence of the general public can be seen as a positive infringement on the work of these 'carriers of the tradition'.

This discontent heed talks about in his original post is now seeping into folk music, but has been there in many ways too for years. Beer and Knightly's song can been seen as vulgar and trashy by the folk bourgeoisie, but the fact is it reflects the zeitgeist of the present and lots of people who don't normally listen to folk music are taking notice. It's true that some undesirable elements are attracted to it due their misreading of the sentiment, but that problem is not exclusive to just right-wing nutters.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:03 PM

I was not at all initially 'dismissing' the author of this rather more than distastefully entitled thread's 'ability/intelligence' (even though s/he claims never to have heard of The Freedom Association. Gulp). Merely having difficulty in grasping what s/he was on about and thus giving rather more benefit of the doubt than is clearly deserved.

But is 'heed' really going to eat up every SoH song? This is good. Very good. Just don't spit out any bits.

'I, myself.......?'

Indeed, yes. A rhetorical device to emphasise that it is merely my opinion. Not that anyone else who doesn't share it isn't wrong. Oh no.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Mr Fox
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:18 PM

Not ANOTHER attempt by the far right to hijack English folk music.

WE'RE NOT INTERESTED. SOD OFF AND DIE!

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:24 PM

I would bet that anybody who sees the Barnett formula as a problem

(a) doesn't see a problem with the allocation of Scotland's oil resources
(b) sees the idea of allocating any resources at all to even poorer countries further away from England as even more reprehensible.

That is, Polshaw appears to want us all to sing in praise of thieving selfish hypocrites.

Lobster magazine has the real scoop on the Freedom Association. Look up their archives.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:28 PM

Well the creator of the Barnett formula thought it a problem. To quote lord Barnett.

'It was never meant to last this long but it has gone on and on and it has become increasingly unfair to England. I didn't create this formula to give Scotland an advantage over the rest of Britain when it comes to public funding ... It is a great embarrassment to have my name attached to so unfair a system.'

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:34 PM

well it's controverial and difficult to understand, but here are a few snippets of news about the barnett formula (pros and cons etc..) to get you thinking, if you "can be arsed"

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=51&id=34822004

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/05/10/nelec310.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/05/10/ixnewstop.html

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:35 PM

The march does seem to have some toads attached to it - but someone has to defend and seek to preserve the English and their heritage.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:44 PM

Not wishing to cast aspersions on the herpetological genus (some of which are very nice), but surely we can preserve the English cultural heritage without this dubious 'help'.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:48 PM

I came to know of the demo from the campaign for an english parliament of which i am a member. I know that there are other groups associated with it, some are pension groups, students, and other patient groups. It's a broad church i think, from different areas of the polictial spectrum. But it is not far right.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Stu
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:51 PM

Well, I'm inclined to agree with that CR, and looking through some of the sites I noticed bragging about previous victories over some of our island neighbours - not too constructive.

However, don't dismiss everyone who wants an English parliament as a bigoted facist - that tars a lot of concerned people with the wrong brush. Except the Freedom Association which is made up of bigots, merchant bankers and tory twats.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Jim McLean
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 01:39 PM

I think England should have its own parliament. A Confederation of our island nations should be able to work. I wrote lots of protest song for Scotland in my day and was branded fascist by the very people who later claimed victory when our present parish council of a parliament was achieved. I find more fascism apparent at football games and most of the supporters are Labour/Tory/Liberal. The SNP has its bigots like any party but parity with Ireland, Lithuania, Latvia, Luxembourg ..... in Europe is not a bad thing. Remember the maxim ' A nation which supresses another cannot itself be free'. We can then develop our national music without blaming other cultures for smothering it. Scotland has blamed England for too long and some of its population are frightened to go it alone. But in a Confederation we can work together.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Big Mick
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 01:42 PM

Very well said, Jim.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Barden of England
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 02:11 PM

Here, here JMcL.
John Barden

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: JohnB
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 02:42 PM

Having just read the whole thread, which I probably would not have done had it been "below the line"
I, myself believe it would have been a lot more interesting and less time consuming if the submissions had all been more like those of Jim McLean than those of countess richard, who would have closed the thread before anyone else had chance to contribute to it and has been "Outta here" and "Really gone".
Having lived in Canada since 1977 I don't think I should try/have much, to contribute anything to the discussion. What I read and hear though does make me shake my head and wonder.
Long live "the Diggers"
JohnB

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 03:05 PM

I called for the thread to be removed because I don't believe ads for fascist marches should be allowed in a music forum. I said originally that I was getting out because I didn't like the company. As the thread remained, I took the opportunity to deplore the use of it by disgusting apologists to try and hijack English music for their own vile purposes.

Now some Canadian comes along who does at least admit that he has nothing to contribute. Yeah, right. Keep out of it and don't mention the Diggers if you know nothing about the land ownership struggle. Or that of musicians in England to preserve and continue our traditions and cultural heritage.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 03:11 PM

So, what's your thoughts on what Jim McLean said

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 03:26 PM

If you're talking to me, Guest, I might deign to discuss what Jim McLean had to say on a politics forum, not a music one.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Jim McLean
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 03:40 PM

Countess richard, folk song has been political for centuries, or rather it has been used thus. If we think on the anti Union (1707) songs, the Jacobite songs, the Highland Clearance songs, the anti Polaris and republican songs right up to the present day then you must accept that these songs have a place in a music thread. I think it's time England put its opinion forward and I'm sure all 'us' non English inhabitants of this island would welcome it. But make them good songs.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 03:40 PM

The problem with opposing pride in being English and the preservation of the English cultural heritage simply because some unpleasant people seek such pride and preservation (Hmm, novel title in there somewhere) is that someone needs to do it.

Condemn the "fascists" if you wish, Countess, but how much have you done for the admirable objectives?

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 03:48 PM

<>

"some Canadian......keep out of it....don't talk about (insert appropriate topic here)

sounds xenophobic to me, "Countess".

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 03:50 PM

"Justice for England" ! ? ?
You're kidding, right?
Be careful, what you wish for!

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 03:54 PM

What 'admirable objectives' do you have in mind, Richard?

Jim McLean, I am not (obviously) objecting to folk song being political, but that those with evil, far-right aspirations should attempt to hijack it. I fail to see how I could be more clear.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:02 PM

From Guest, Guest:

"some Canadian......keep out of it....don't talk about (insert appropriate topic here)

sounds xenophobic to me, "Countess"

Not at all.
Do keep up AND READ THE THREAD
The person (JohnB) said he had nothing to contribute.

This is the problem with 'Guests' who barge in, knowing nowt and with fuck all to contribute.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Big Mick
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:09 PM

So then your opinion is you wouldn't be opposed to banning songs of the Orange Order that are built on older trad tunes? Or would you prefer to ban Irish rebel songs built on older trad songs?

Actually, countess richard, I admire your disdain for the far right folks that attempt to hijack the trad music for their xenophobic purposes. The neo nazi bigots tried and continue to try, to do that with "Celtic" music. But it appears to me that you want to throw the baby out with the bath water. It seems to me to be admirable to want to retain and revive ones heritage. It seems to me that GB needs to come to grips with its future. If the Scots have their own parliament, why not the English? I admit to being a Yank and not intimately familiar with the issues, but that is what it appears to me. Seems to me that the idea of a Confederation is a sound one. I stand prepared to hear the thoughts of my friends from the other side of the pond on the issue. I imagine it will continue to be an interesting thread.

As to the song, it expresses a point of view. It does it in a catchy way, and is enjoyable to listen to. Despite the fact that xenophobes are trying to hijack it, it isn't of itself, a song that appears to project that point of view.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:29 PM

No, Mick I'm not seeking to ban any songs. There are after all many examples, particularly in Ireland, which belong to what you might wish to call opposing traditions. Star Of The County Down and Londonderry Air/Danny Boy spring instantly to mind. And turning to the Balkans, good grief, who would be so foolish as to try and sort out the tunes geographically and politically? And I've already said (somewhere or other) what a jolly good tune the Horst Wessel-Lied is. (And several moments of Wagner if you forget about the dreadful quarters of an hour).

My point is what you correctly state: 'disdain for the far-right folk who attempt to hijack trad music'. I haven't said a word about whether or not England should have a separate parliament. I could, but not here in a music forum.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:37 PM

I have just taken on the distasteful task of reading through this whole thread. Admittedly, I scanned through mos of the "Long-Winded" submissions & can find no relevance to folk music what-so-ever!
I have little use for the BS threads and this is where this one belongs.
Please tell me; What exactly am I learning about Folk Music, here?

As for the title? A blatant abuse of our trust. Just like the telemarketers, you lost my support the instant that you misrepresented yourself.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:53 PM

The thread is relevant to trad music only in that this 'campaign' is yet another far-right attempt to hijack it.
Which is precisely why I asked in #2 for it to be closed.
The only 'long-winded submission' is someone taking the liberty of yet another reposting of the tedious Roots, which I have to agree has little relevance to f*lk music'.
I don't however agree that the thread should be in BS.
I think the original vile advert should have been thrown off in the same way as any other fascist shit.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:10 PM

Countess Richard:
                Our host has voiced support for freedom of speech, on several occasions. That being said, you have voiced your concerns and am sure that Mudcat has reviewed this thread. Ultimately, they will decide or have already done so.
I'll not make any friends with my politics here nor am I too interested in airing them.
Others have tripped on this thread and finding themselves in unfamiliar territory, have been harshly treated by those who love a good scrap.
Rather than make the same mistake, I'll go and practice MUSIC.
I'm really, really gone!
Jim

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 06:19 PM

Well, I posted he thread to cover two themes. One the aspect of the rise of the contemporary english protest movement and it's manifestation in the justice for english march, and secondly whether this movement has any expression in contemporary music, whether you agree with it or not. I made it clear at the start that it was about those two themes, and admitted that it may be a litle cheeky to combine the two. I should have put them in separate threads and for that i am sorry.

The issue of the the expression of english identity is not going to go away. If any thing it will only get louder. I believe that on the whole the issues that are raised by the justice for england march are fair and just. The suggestion that it is related to facism is utterly rubbish. Some people on this thread have used the concept of facism so as to cheapen it's actual meaning. This is counter - productive in my opinion as it blinds us to the real dangers of facism, and denys people from expresing moderate opionions for fear of being branded a fascist.

I have some sympathy with people who want to guard against folk music being used by some political groups. There is a danger that it can be a powerful tool for the far right and this needs to be challenged. Although i find countess quite dificult, i think he/she is right in warning against it. I only wish he/she would open his/her mind a bit more to the fact that folk music can and has been a legitimate expression for many other political groups or indviduals whether you agree with them or not.

I though the coments by jim maclean was fair, and speaking as an englishman i think that it shows that we can be good neighbours, rather that surly roommates. This is th future of our countries in my opinion. But i may be wrong. i often am.

I hope i haven't caused too much offence with the contents of my post and I am sorry for breaking any conventions for the use of the mudcat forum.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 04:59 AM

DIFFICULT

Difficult?
Good grief, I haven't even started.
Freedom of speech is one thing, and informed discussion of the roots and origins of fascism is important, and an understanding of its etymology would result not least in spelling it correctly.
Providing a platform for racists and fascists, and the resulting injustice, inequality and oppression, is quite something else and is always wrong and will always be opposed.
This is why, in my view, such a vile ad has no place in a music forum.
In common with Woody Guthrie, I'd have my guitar inscribed with 'This machine kills fascists' if I didn't fear it would fall apart.
Whether an indeterminately defined ethnic grouping occupying a specific geographical space should or should not have self-determination in the guise of its own parliament has no bearing whatsoever (unless someone writes a song about it) on the musics played by its citizens.
Music and musicians travel, co-operate and share, uniting peoples and cultures.
And this is the very antithesis of what such a collection of loony far-right tossers want.
Trad music belongs to those who play it with whoever they want and wherever they are, not to those who aspire to a restrictive, coercive state which says 'you will be this colour, live in this way and do what we want'.
I prefer to stay free to play (and think and say) whatever I damn well like (thank you Pete Seeger).
I somehow think I'll be getting rather more universal support over this from US members with their recent cultural experiences than from woolly-minded apologists here in the UK (or should I say, England) . . .

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Sam
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 05:11 AM

And I guess when we fought King Georg's troops over the battle of Independence from Britain you, countess richard, would have called us a bunch of murdering fascists, disloyal to the Mother Country? We set up a free nation and are your main ally in the Western world. That's why Pete Seegar and Woody Guthrie can sing about the Land of the Free and be proud of their independence.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 05:25 AM

I was, as always, on the side of Tom Paine.
As an almost total diversion, the husband of Flora MacDonald, exiled to the Carolinas, fought on the Royalist side. Ironic, innit?
btw Guest Sam (hey, you're not THE Sam in Canada, are you?), do you actually KNOW about the persecution and injustice both SeegEr and Guthrie faced and opposed in the 'Land Of The Free'?
When I cited 'recent cultural experiences' I actually meant Senator McCarthy, Hear of him?

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 05:40 AM

I meant to type: HEARD of him?
(Joe McCarthy, that is).
These fascists make my hands shake so.

Ah, Guest Sam, I see who you are:

We set up a free nation and are your main ally in the Western world

You're George Bush, aren't you?

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 07:10 AM

Why am I being accused of wanting to sing the praises of thieving selfish hypocrites or whetever the term was, Jack. I do prefer to use first names than surnames by the way - so much frinedlier don't you think? Anyway, why do automaticaly assume that because I have a modicum, and that is all it is, of national pride that I want to praise anything other than the good things about England. Or do you really believe that ALL the English are thieving selfish hypocrites?

If I remember correctly one of the aspects of facism, so often quoted here, is the firm belief that one is in someway superior to everyone else. I don't think any of the arguments for the 'justice for England' campaign or those supporting the SoH song have shown any such trait. I do not want anything more than the rest of the union gets. I do not want to be thought of in any way superior to anyone. But then again I don't think it right to be treated as an inferior either. Do you?

Mr Fox - "Not ANOTHER attempt by the far right to hijack English folk music." Yes, you are quite right. It isn't.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Sam
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 08:39 AM

Ma'am, I'm a Democrat and I also agree with Tom Paine but your arguments are flying all over the place. What's Flora MacDonald's politics got to do with the English wanting a Parliament?

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 08:56 AM

Uncle Sam, my argument has flown nowhere.
It is quite simply that:
(a) this music forum is no place to advertise the activities of a bunch of looney fascists and
(b) attempts at hijacking English music by the far right are despicable.

Flora MacDonald's politics don't come into it. After rescuing the Young Pretender and dumping him on Skye, the Crown forced her into exile. Yet her husband was compelled, ironically, to fight for the English Crown in the Americas.

Whether or not the English have a Parliament is a hareng saur. A Parliament House doth not a democracy make. It is who is elected to it and how they legislate. Spare us from Norman Tebbit and his ilk.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Sam
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 09:37 AM

But countess richards, there was no English crown. As far as I know from history the crowns of Scotland and England were united in 1603 and at the time of Flora MacDonald there was a Great Britain, parliament and crown. You appear to be very ill informed of your own history so maybe the English need a parliament of their own to prevent people like you thinking Westminster and the Crown belongs to England. Very sad.
PS My mother is a MacDonald so it appears I know a bit more than you do, even although I was born and bred in the USA.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 09:54 AM

Ah yes, well I suppose I ought to have written 'the (imposed) British Crown'. Apologies,
This was not, at the time of the flight of Charles Edward Stuart from Culloden, the view of Flora MacDonald who thought he was the legitimate heir (though I'm sure she swiftly changed her mind about he 'who ran like a rabbit through the glen leaving better folk than him to be butchered'). There are those in Scotland who still drink a silent toast to him over the water by passing their wine glass over a glass of water.

All I know about Scottish history comes from June Tabor who, when a history student, recommended the John Prebble trilogy. If I have anything else wrong, blame her.

Do Westminster and the Crown belong to England? Well, that is where they are situated. As is the Stone of Scone I think once more unless some thieving Scots have nicked it yet again. I don't keep up cos it's not actually the important issue, is it?

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 10:32 AM

Countess, I really object to being called a fascist for feeling that the English are getting a raw deal due to the devolution this govt has inititated.
Yes, I know the BNP and their ilk would love to get hold of the music as did Hitler's mob, however, just because they exist does not mean I have to change my opinion as to the need for the English to establish a seperate identity as the Scots and Welsh are doing.
I never wanted the Union to break up, but the break up is happening beyond a shadow of a doubt and we English must address the issue and fight our own corner.
If our music can help in this then that's all to the good.
p.s. I like the lyrics of "Roots"
Wordy. Woody Guthrie and Phil Ochs fan

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 10:42 AM

Wordy, who called you a fascist?
Unless you are something to do with the motley bunch of far-right loonies organising this march, you are, as far as I know, not one.
If you like Roots just go ahead and listen. I've heard it a million times over the past year or so (is it more or does it just seem like it?) After the first demo play which was dire, it got marginally better though not much.
It's a song, that's all.
As Ms Tabor said, just don't ask me to listen . . .
A song alone can achieve nothing, and there are many better ones.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: JohnB
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 12:26 PM

Since I posted yesterday, there have been 26 more postings on this thread, 12 of them by the contessa. Yes the same one who didn't want the thread to start with, I don't have time to count the remaining posts.
Anyhow, I never said I was Canadian, I moved to Canada from England in 1977. I don't have a lot to contribute to this thread, as I have not specifically kept up with UK politics.
I shake my head that living in Canada, I appear to have far more rights and freedom to play and sing English music in Pubs or Morris Dance on the streets than the English have in England. That is based somewhat on what I have read on different Mudcat threads.
If this is an acceptable state of affairs, it bodes very sadly for anyone who considers themselves to be Englishand can't do anything about it without being labelled a fascist.
Sorry I won't have time to post anything again until tomorrow, I was busy doing sound at a concert last night and have concerts myself tonight and tomorrow, we have to wark harder to maintain our Englishness in the Colonies.
Having read all the posts, I think there has been only one vote against this particular march. The one to cancel the thread to start with, does this smack of facism? or is it something worse?
JohnB

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Tam
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 01:41 PM

Jo, is there any way you can curb that foul mouthed contess richards?
I happened to look at another thread 'Roots' and she uses the F word quite gratuitously.
Poor show, I think.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 02:02 PM

countess:
re: "Whether an indeterminately defined ethnic grouping occupying a specific geographical space should or should not have self-determination in the guise of its own parliament has no bearing whatsoever (unless someone writes a song about it) on the musics played by its citizens.
"
I agree. My point about an english parliament is that it is for all the people in england, whatever their race or ethnic grouping.

"Music and musicians travel, co-operate and share, uniting peoples and cultures."
I certainly hope so. Though it depends on what the subject matter is and how it is performed. I remember reading about British Council representatives in Armenia causing offence by the staging of a dance that had a performer dancing on the Armenian flag! The Armenians were not very happy though apparently no offence was intended by the British. Though why they didn't see that one coming i don't know.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 02:12 PM

No, no, no, not a 'contessa'. Absolutely nothing Italian about Child #68. But why waste breath/finger power on explaining Young Hunting? Look it up yourself.
This thread began with someone posting details of a march organised by extremely dubious right-wing sources which I would have liked to see removed on the grounds of decency.
Everyone who has looked at the links is now aware of the disgusting Freedom Association/Tebbit connections.
'No platform for racists and fascists', remember that from the 70s?
Those who haven't given the site more than a cursory glance appear afflicted with a literary deficiency which equates the appearance of the word 'fascist' leaping from the page as a reference to them.
This may, of course, be a case of 'if the cap fits' . . . who knows?
So, no, it is not 'only one vote against this particular march'.
Anyone concerned for the diversity of our society and indeed of 'English' music is opposed to this sort of threat to it and other civil liberties, and many have said so here.
Not only is the post from 'JohnB' above lamentably inaccurate but it gives rise to serious concern about just where he is coming from.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,John
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 02:22 PM

Contessa, you forgot to add 'fuck off'.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: danensis
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 02:26 PM

I realise that getting a thread back on track goes rather against the spirit of this place, but I'm interested to know why the BBC spends so much money broadcasting music by French, Italian, German and other nationals, and so little by English (and indeed Welsh, Scottish or Irish) composers.

As for indepenence for England, I think we should stop sending electricity generated with Yorkshire coal, down to the soft south-east.

And if nuclear power stations are so safe, why don't they build one near to London where most of the electricity is consumed?

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 02:27 PM

Blimey, so I did.
Though I'm NOT a 'contessa'.
Child #68, mate.
Now, fuck off all you fascists . . .

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 02:31 PM

since there is a link to the Freedom Association.I think Countess Richard,is probably right.
The English do have a right to their own heritage,and to their own parliament.,and to their own anthem[instead of god save the Queen]. I would suggest the world turned upside down,by Leon Rosselson.
but there are certain phrases that make me suspicious of far right involvement[ I dont think Dave Polshaw is of that political leaning].

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 02:40 PM

Oh, and before I fuck off myself out of this morass of misunderstanding about the nature of fascism, I must ask this danensis person just what s/he imagines is the provenance of the incredible diversity of music played in our islands (or even just in England). Mazurkas, waltzes, polskas, bourrées, gigues, polkas all have 'Made in Birmingham' stamped on them, do they? And melodeons, violins, bouzoukis and djembes were all made there too?
I expect The Freedom Association would ban them all.

That what you want?

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 02:58 PM

Thanks Dick - you are quite right (not wing of course!) I just don't understand why wanting to celebrate anything English is automaticaly considered 'right wing'. I really hate in when a word, thought or idea is changed so much that it no longer has any vestige of the original concept left.

I must go now though. I am going to have a gay time with my queer friends in the pub...


:D

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 06:32 PM

"I think Countess Richard,is probably right."

I'm sorry but you are wrong. The cep is one of the groups attending. Please consider this article by them ( http://thecep.org.uk/news/ViewItem.asp?Entry=1485 ), in particular the issue entitled "Civic Nationalism . English Identity . Multiculturalism".

I quote:

"An English parliament would create an English franchise resulting in every individual in England, regardless of ethnic or religious identity, becoming a 'stakeholder' in England. This would be the single greatest rebuttal to those who delimit the boundaries and scope of Englishness and what it means to be English "

The march has very specific goals. I think some people see what they want to see but disregard the rest.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 06:59 PM

I don't want an English parliament. It's only be as London-centric as the rest of the political infrastructure - totally useless. I'd like a parliament for the East Midlands, thank you very much.

Anyone else feeling under-represented? How bout a parliament for Shropshire? Hull? Freedom for Tooting?

'"Justice for England is rather emotive and stirs up the wrong sort of sentiment". Why should it be like that? It's the dreaded E word isn't it? England = nasty?'

ummm...no. It's the fact that "Justice for England" reminds me of the kind of Daily Mail headlines which whip up paranoia and resentment about all of these fundamental rights which are supposedly being eroded by immigration and such.

England is great. English culture is fab. Let's do everything we can to support it. But we don't need to do so by setting it up in opposition to other people and cultures. That's playing into the hands of the fascists.

"but someone has to defend and seek to preserve the English and their heritage."

Defend it from what? This is exactly the kind of thing I mean...

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 07:25 PM

English folk song will tell of the vicissitudes of the groups in which the folk song arose. Thus any particular folk song may be, as we would call it to day, left-wing or right-wing. So I think, Countess, that you are rather getting your knickers in a twist.

Would you not be better off complaining about the modern performance of folk songs that glorify the killing of the English? - If mirror images of them were performed by the English about other ethnic groups, the said English would be at risk of being charged with inciting racial hatred (compare the time when a re-enactment group sang the English words to "Die Lindenbaum" in the presence of a fairly obviously Jewish accordian player, who was most offended).

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 03:58 AM

no, anything that is linked to the freedom association,has got to be scrutinised carefully.
TheFreedom association are supporters of the conservative party,they clearly believe that an English parliament will result in a conservative victory,if this happens you can forget about pensioners getting an increase,English students being treated fairly.
O and since until quite recently they were the Conservative and unionist party,their policies on ulster need to be looked at carefully.
SOME supporters of this may be genuine PATRIOTS[and not xenophobes] and not HAVE ULTERIOR MOTIVES,but the freedom association is a strange bedfellow to be working with.,you may also find your movenment gets infiltrated by the British Nationalist party.,and the freedom association.
the new party back in the 1930 s,was eventuallytaken over by Sir Oswald Mosley,and became aFASCIST PARTY.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 04:12 AM

Hello Richard, my knickers are untwisted and I'm not the one with the comprehension problem.
Where have I complained about the performance of any song or piece of music?
What I called for was the removal of an ad for an event organised by the loony right as I don't believe that it is the role of a music forum to give a platform to racists and fascists. Nor for them to attempt to hijack English music for their own vile aims.
If this convoluted discussion has:
(a) opened some eyes to the nasty activities of The Freedom Association and its Tebbit-like henchpersons and
(b) to the diversity and non-exclusivity of trad music and English culture in general,
this is a Good Thing.
Now will you all go away and sort out your knicker drawers and play a few ever so multicultural Playford tunes as you do it? Mine are fine.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 04:40 AM

Grammar! That is unlike you, Countess.

I regret to say that I am starting to get the feeling that this thread is being somewhat Shambled, if I may coin that verb.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Barden of England
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 04:49 AM

Thanks to countess richard I've revisited the site, and having clicked some of the links (something which I didn't do before) I must say she has a valid point. Some of those sites don't reflect what is being said on the first site. If the purpose of the site is to get you to go to the others then I must agree wholeheartedly with countess richard - and I thank her for pointing it out.
John Barden

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 04:54 AM

If anybody's doing any Shambling it's Richard Bridge.
Good old Roger would scream 'no censorship' and I'd mostly agree.
Not over blatant ads by Tory tossers who seek white supremacy, control and power over our lives, though.
In this case, it's still 'No Platform For Racists And Fascists'.
If Richard want them to have one, I'd like to know how he proposes to deal with the consequences.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 04:55 AM

Hey, and I got #100!

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: sapper82
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 05:08 AM

A definition is required here;
Fascist = Someone who disagrees with Countess Richard.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 05:15 AM

Sigh.
Muddled Thinking Department Shows No Sign Of Shrinking.
DO go and sort out your knickers, 'sapper82'.
READ the list of distasteful tossers involved in this vile venture and in particular, if you can't be arsed to actually read what I have to say, take note of the observations of Captain Birdseye and others passim who actually realise the dangers we are up against.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 05:18 AM

no fascists,are generally xenophobic,they blame social inequality upon the fault of some other race,rather than the fault of the capitalist system,or the mismanagement of capitalism.
Mosley blamed the jews,Colin Jordan blamed the Blacks,Hitler blamed the Jews.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: sapper82
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 06:23 AM

Interesting how some people still fail to recognise the dangers of the left by ignoring the lessons of the Soviet Union whilst simultainiously screaming "FASCIST" at anyone who dare to contradict them!.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 06:43 AM

It is not interesting, indeed it is boring in the extreme, how some labororiously pick out the odd word or two without regard for the syntactical context in which they are employed, then mindlessly sloganise their random prejudices.

It is blindingly clear to me (and always has been) what the agenda of those behind this website is, and it is for this reason that I believe their ad should have been erased. Others are free (at the moment) to take a different view, believing apparently that anyone should be at liberty to say what they want, however abhorrent. No-one has called THEM fascists but merely emphasised the loony, far-right tosser provenance of what they appear to be upholding, and invited them to look further. It is cheering that some have.

The aspect of what the far right has been, and still is, attempting to do with our traditional music is a separate one which even the OP has conceded ought to have been addressed separately.

Juxtaposing 'the dangers of the left' and 'the lessons of the Soviet Union' in one vague sentence is bizarre and misleading. If anyone (with experience of the role of folk arts both in former socialist countries and in the so-called 'West') wants to debate (offlist) the various implications of what occurred, please feel free.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 07:20 AM

A clear danger is posed by those who slide from objection to loony right-wingers into the acceptance of all complaints about the English but none by the English.

There is no reason why the English should not have protest songs.

As for who's Shambling, just count the posts and watch the ranting.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 07:26 AM

There is no reason why the English should not have protest songs

Who said they shouldn't?
And who is it that's accepting complaints about the English?
Are you feeling OK, Mr Bridge? I'm getting just a tiny bit concerned . . .

Yes, there ARE a lot of posts by me here. It's because I have to keep ON coming back and explaining that the only reason why I entered this thread was to say that ads from fascists are not acceptable on a music forum.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: sapper82
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 07:37 AM

Countess,
Why do you persist in referring to the Justice For England movement as Fascist?

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 07:42 AM

Look at the site, mate and see who's involved.
As not just me but others above have already done.
Thanks John Barden, Dick Miles and anyone else who's bothered to look into it.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 08:05 AM

Quote from OP "ask whether this discontent is beginning to appear in the folk songs of England, whether you agree with it or not. Is anybody writing about any of the following?"

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 08:13 AM

I posted this originally on 1st March this year on the thread that ended up below the line and had its title changed to "Show of Hands (Recipes)".

"I suspect that Show of Hands may find Lizzie's continued over-enthusiasm for Roots somewhat less disturbing than the political associations of some of their new supporters. Someone has posted a link to www.justiceforengland.com on their official message board. The aspirations of justiceforengland look rather innocent until you see that its website in turn is linked to the likes of The Freedom Association, who when I last checked used to be run by people who thought Margaret Thatcher was a bit too wet for their tastes.

There is however some light comedy there too. There is also a link on justiceforengland to a site called "We Are The English", complete with a picture of Winston Churchill. I don't think anyone has told "We Are The English" that Winnie was only half-English and that his other half was just a bit American. They are going to be just so disappointed when the penny finally drops. On the other hand, they've only had a century and a bit to find that out so perhaps they never will. Funnily enough, the minor stumbling block of his transatlantic parentage aside, I thought Winston won the BBC poll for "Greatest Ever Briton" not "Greatest Ever Englishperson", so I'm not quite sure why "We The English" have cyber-napped him".

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 09:07 AM

Oh dear.

Having finally looked at the Justice for England website, I find it makes for uncomfortable reading.

I repeat my earlier assertion: supporting Englishness does not mean having to set it up in opposition to other cultures. This whole notion that the English are somehow oppressed by multiculturalism and Scottish and Welsh nationalism, that their rights are being eroded, is not only ridiculous, but it's also the thin end of the wedge. I'm sorry, but these are the insidious tactics used by the far right to make their politics appear more acceptable.

No, there is nothing wrong with being proud to be English. There is nothing wrong with trying to enthuse other English people about their culture and traditions. But all this "Our way of life is threatened" stuff scares me. It's the politics of seige and paranoia, and a completely different kettle of fish to the notion of supporting English culture in positive, non-confrontational ways.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 09:47 AM

wellthis must be afirst.I agree with Ruth Archer.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 10:06 AM

Clearly the exception that proves the rule, Dick!

;0)

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 10:17 AM

there is nothing wrong with being proud to be English. There is nothing wrong with trying to enthuse other English people about their culture and traditions. But all this "Our way of life is threatened" stuff scares me. It's the politics of seige and paranoia, and a completely different kettle of fish to the notion of supporting English culture in positive, non-confrontational ways.

That is where I am too.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 01:47 PM

I apologise as well, countess. The more I look at the freedom association the less I like them - Pity that such a good idea as trying to gain some enthusiasm for English pride has been cuckolded by such dodgy bedfellows.

I do still maintain that the justice for England campain is a good idea. Remove a couple of the links and their site is fine. If your objections are just to the extemist hangers on I agree with you entirely.

Thanks for pointing out what was not so obvious and letting us know why you reacted like you did. It may be better in the future if you were to explain before shouting but I guess the difference in the way we work is what makes the world such and interesting place:-)

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 02:57 PM

Well y'know I thought it was all so obvious and was a little puzzled that some of you took a while to catch on and initially opposed me. A 'Justice For England' campaign may seem initially a good idea, given that there are constitutional issues that need to be addressed, though I fail to see how discrepancies in funding would necessarily be equalised, as such matters are decided regionally according to perceived need.

And disparate regionalism (cf Balkanisation) always attracts extremist hangers-on hiding behind a seemingly democratic front. As Ruth Archer said, 'these are the insidious tactics used by the far right to make their politics appear more acceptable'. Just a little reading between the lines is required, though not a lot. Hey ho, didn't think I ought to have spelled it out any more. Though on second thoughts, had there been rather more 'shouting' in the 1930s, Messrs Hitler and Mussolini might not have got to where they did . . .

A chilling thought.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 05:04 PM

Incidentaly - I am going to write to the justice for England campaign to ask for the removal of the link to the freedom association to see if they realy mean the bit about not wanting to have anything to do with right wing organisations. I will pst any reply here.

On to other English organisations. There were 2 I viewed. I will not post the links - you can find them for yourselves! The English democratic party has a site that is so unbelievably poor that I did not even get as far as investigation their politics. It was an afront to the senses! The English Democrats however have a very slick site and, as far as I can see, no aparant right wing ties. I guess there is an indirect link because they are also publicising the march being discussed above but aside from that are they pretty harmless? Anyone any views?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbins
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 05:07 PM

"Yes, there ARE a lot of posts by me here. It's because I have to keep ON coming back and explaining that the only reason why I entered this thread was to say that ads from fascists are not acceptable on a music forum."

ads from ANY extremists, political or otherwise, are not acceptable on a music forum.

Noe Be Thankful

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: melodeonboy
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 05:45 PM

Are we not finding people guilty by association?

There seems to be general agreement on this thread that certain unsavoury elements have associated themselves with the Justice for England movement. That does not necessarily mean that every person that seeks to change the constitution in the way suggested is a fascist.

Some of the Muslim groups that joined the protests against the war in Iraq were somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan. That didn't lead us to label all the other protesters fascists, nor did their presence appear to deter others from standing up for their beliefs.

And yes, this thread should be below the line.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 03:04 AM

Melodeonboy, I found the front page of the Justice for England website made me feel uncomfortable, for the reasons I outlined above. The links from their site just reinforced that feeling. If Justice for England are organising this march, I'm very, very suspicious of their motivations.

It's kind of like the Countryside Alliance, theoretically an organisation that came together to protect the rural way of life, jobs, homes, highlight rural poverty etc, when everyone knows it was only ever about hunting. This lot strike me as similarly disingenuous.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 03:49 AM

Just dropped back in to see if you've all shaved your heads yet.
Come on guys. We got hijacked. How much more time do you want to give this guy?

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 05:15 AM

Clearly, this thread is compelling, and quite enlightening, though I agree it should go below the line. It's enlightening for me for sure. I had never heard of the Freedom Association, and do not like what they may stand for. However, I am a member of the Campaign For an Enlgish Parliament a single issue cause group. This aim is just, and i think the aims of the march are fair in that they are quite specific and are simply campaigning for England for to be given an equal status with other nations of Britain. It seems that the march may be attracting many different types of groups. Students in debt, cancer patients argry at the drugs they need only being available in scotland, those campaigning for an english palriament... and those from the freedom association! It looks like a broad church to me. I broadly believe in the aims of the march and believe that England as a nation is being treated unfairly constitutionally. The march organisers have stressed that they are trying to prevent those from the far right highjacking the march. Therefore why should i not go?

There is an emerging English Nationalist movement. This is inevitable, and it is growing quickly. One issue with it is how is it going to manifest itself? Right wing and racist, or consitutional, democratic and inclusive? The Freedom Association may be the former, the Campaign for an English Parliament the latter. I want to be in a position to make it an inclusive and positive movement. Therefore, I am going on that march. Perhaps i shall be in a better position to know more after the march and maybe i 'll come back here and let you know my conclusions.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 08:25 AM

You know, you only have to look at the national press at the moment to see them raising the same issues as the demo. The following articles from the independent,Sky News, and the Financial Times,(all respected media organisations) do this. Are they fascists?

Tartan takeover: The rise of the Scotocracy
quote: 'English nationalism is the dog that hasn't barked yet," Mr Stenhouse warned. "If we have this extraordinary situation where a Scot is prime minister, and the SNP is running Scotland, then I think the dog will start barking very loudly.'

Exploring The North South Divide
quote: "differences in public spending in Scotland and England mean a family could be thousands of pounds out of pocket just because the live the wrong side of the River Tweed ... The so-called Barnett formula is blamed for the inequality in public spending, and even its creator has called for it to be reformed. "

Union blues
"Victory for the SNP would also have a major impact on England – fuelling English nationalism and intensifying demands that the people who form the majority within the UK should also contemplate breaking away from their neighbours. ... the UK parliament gives the Scottish minority a far more generous financial settlement than it does to the English. Scottish university students pay no tuition fees. The elderly in Scotland get free long-term care. So south of the border the question is increasingly asked: what's in it for us?"


Do you still think all of us are fascists? Anti-unionists may be a more accurate description.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 10:47 AM

I got an answer!

"Dear Dave

Thanks for your note, you are right, we are non-political and not
associated to anyone group. The Freedom Assoication requested a link to us and we linked with them as we have linked with many other groups and organisations regardless of views.

We reach out to all who live in England whatever their political views
accept groups from the Far Right and Far Left. We will consider removing them if you tell us how they are associated with the Far / Extreme Right.

I do hope that you will support our campaign as if you live in England
then what we are figthing for effects you just as much as me."


What do you think? Sounds reasonable to me but I am easily pleased...

:D

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 11:24 AM

PS - I have written back. Keep you posted.

D.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim McLean
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 01:00 PM

We already have a Scottish PM. Tony Blair was born in Scotland, had a Scottish father and was educated there. It's pure racism to suggest that only an Englishman could be head of a UK parliament.
What WOULD be unusual if a Scot had a Scottish constituency and was PM and wasn't allowed to vote on English matters.
I think this shows the need for an English parliament.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 01:20 PM

personally of all the available candidates including Blair,Gordon Brown is the best of a bad bunch,I dont care if he doesnt smile at the cameras very much,he has done a reasonably good job as chancellor of the exchequer,and possibly will do a slightly better job than anybody else.,apart from me.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 02:26 PM

Jim McLean: Interesting that his wife is Catholic, he is not and he goes to Mass with her every Sunday. Has the law changed yet to allow Catholics to become Prime Minister? Let me know if it has and if so, when? Then we cant talk about racism/segregation.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 03:57 PM

Read This From Wikipedia:
          The Catholic Relief Act 1829 (10 Geo IV c.7) was passed by the Parliament of the United Kingdom on 24 March 1829, and received the Royal Assent on 13 April. It was the culmination of the process of Catholic Emancipation in the United Kingdom, and in Ireland it repealed the last of the Penal Laws. Its passage followed a campaign on the issue by Irish lawyer and newly elected Member of Parliament Daniel O'Connell.

The act allowed Catholics to have a seat in parliament. This condition was crucial as Daniel O'Connell had won a seat in a by-election in County Clare but under British law he was forbidden (because of his religion) to take his seat in Westminster. Sir Robert Peel, who had for all of his career opposed emancipation (and had, in 1815, challenged O'Connell to a duel) was forced to conclude: "though emancipation was a great danger, civil strife was a greater danger." Fearing a revolution in Ireland, Peel drew up the Catholic Relief Bill and guided it through the House of Commons. To overcome the opposition of both the House of Lords and King George IV, the Duke of Wellington worked to ensure passage in the House of Lords, and threatened to resign as Prime Minister if the King did not give Royal Assent.

The Catholic Relief Act was a compromise, however, and effectively disenfranchised the Catholic peasants of Ireland, the so-called Forty Shilling Freeholders. The act raised fivefold the economic qualifications for voting. Starting in 1793, any man renting or owning land worth at least forty shillings (the equivalent of two Pounds Sterling), had been permitted to vote. Under the Catholic Relief Act, this was raised to ten pounds.[citation needed]

The act also makes it illegal for a Catholic to directly or indirectly advise the British Sovereign on appointments in the Church of England.[citation needed] There has not yet been a Catholic Prime Minister to date, since the act's passing. The Prime Minister usually advises the Sovereign on appointment of Bishops in the Church, although today, the Prime Minister's role is somewhat of a formality, channelling information from the Church authorities to the Sovereign. The current Prime Minister, Tony Blair, whilst married to a Catholic, is not one himself.

Now please take this thread somewhere else.
This is all about politics and nothing to do with music.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Barden of England
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 05:24 PM

That must have made it awkward for Disraeli then!
John Barden

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 05:45 PM

Not so much as being Catholic would be. Take a look at the introduction to any old King James Bible if you have one.
Jews were/are not the enemy.
The whole point is: There are still laws in existence today, which allow unfair advantage to some. Protest if you want but those crying foul have more than a couple of aces up their sleeves.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Barden of England
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 06:37 PM

No wonder the Turks are insisting that the state should be secular. Me, I'm baptised Church of England, from a Catholic family (don't ask, I don't understand it either) who was eductated in an East End of London grammar school that was predominantley jewish. Is it any wonder I'm so mixed up!
John Barden

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim McLean
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 06:55 PM

Jim Lad, why did you bring religion into the discussion? I merely responded to the racist statement that Scot could not be the PM of the UK.
I agree that this thread should be 'below the line' but it was headed 'protest songs'.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 30 Apr 07 - 07:02 PM

Because you ridiculed the idea that the establishment could be swayed by bigotry. At least, that's how I saw it.
You're a decent man, Jim. Let's not get caught up in the tangled logic of some radical or well meaning activist of whom we know nothing.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 01 May 07 - 03:05 AM

You have to remember how much the Catholic/CofE issue had divided the country to understand why such seemingly draconian measures came into being. The fanaticism of Mary Tudor didn't help, for a start. Later, the Catholicism of Charles I's French queen, Henrietta Maria, was hugely divisive. She was operating her own Catholic court in a notionally Protestant country historically divided by religion, and this was one of the (many) causes of the civil war. Her son James II was removed from his throne because he swung the country back into Catholicism after the Protestant court of his brother Charles II. It was only with the joint reign of William and Mary that some stability was introduced, and the "no Catholics on the throne" laws were intended to maintain that stability.

Catholicism wasn't just a religion: it represented Ireland, of course, but also Spain and France, both of whom were keen to rule over England. Legislating against Catholics governing the country effectively removed this threat.

I don't think it was bigotry as we understand that term today. I think there were some pretty understandable arguments which led to that situation evolving, in a very particular socio-political climate.

I should add that I speak as a convent school girl.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 01 May 07 - 03:49 AM

The point is that the Government is entirely capable of basing it's decisions on any kind of bias. Why does the law still exist?
As for your reasoning ... that would be a long, heated debate.
Now; Give us a song, will you?

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 May 07 - 05:50 AM

I usually disagree with the countess on the subject of celebrating Englishness; I am of the Richard Bridge persuasion - babies and bathwater and all that. But I do sympathise very much with the countess' fear of extremism invading such initiatives, and I can understand why she wants to stay clear of them.

Celebration and separation are two very different things, and the problem is how to stop one short of the second. Take the old Yugoslavia - conceived by powers around a table rather than along ethinc lines, and in ignorance of the underlying issues, it took someone like Tito to make it viable. But viable it had become - until with Tito gone petty nationalism reared its head, and fed by the world's powers again (with Germany first in recognising Slovenia and Croatia, now, why did that not surprise me), they unravelled the whole jumper into its constituent threads, only much more crumpled and pitiful now, giving opportunity for atrocities like Srebrenica to take place.

I can imagine a similar scenario for the UK. When the Scottish Assembly was established, even as I was pleased for the Scots, I couldn't help seeing its necessity as a tacit admission of failure on the part of the country to manage all its constituents equitably. No Tito here, just the institution of monarchy (itself beginning to creak) to keep the thing together. How long will it take for the four nations to become truly separate, I wonder - and will they be better off for doing so (I have my doubts).

And yet... I like to see people celebrating their nationality, and their differences and their culture - enough to want to preserve them, but not to want to impose them or exclude others. Such a hard balance to maintain, but such a prize to be gained from its achievement!

Please, beware of balkanising the UK. So, for once, on this particular subject, I come down on the countess' side. This march is too tainted, this bathwater too dirty and there's a lot more than the baby in it...

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 01 May 07 - 08:21 AM

That must have made it awkward for Disraeli then!

Benjamin Disraeli although of Jewish extraction was a Member of the Church of England. But, Michael Howard's religion would have been no barrier either. It is only Catholics that are discimininated against both by The Cathloc Relief Act and the Act of Settlement. Indeed it will be OK for Princes William or Harry to marry anyone of any religion whatsoever EXCEPT a Catholoc and still keep their place in the succession.

I suspect the Catholic Relief Act, the Act of Settlement and the Royal Marriages Act might all be challenged under The Human Rights Act in due course. They are all features of the UK constitution that need tidying up. The "West Lothian Question" is perhaps not the largest problem, even if Justice for England think so.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim McLean
Date: 01 May 07 - 10:46 AM

I'll be leaving this thread, now, and won't be looking in again.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 01 May 07 - 11:30 AM

I went to the j of e march until after the speeches were made. Here are my observations:

- The march attracted about 150 - 200 people, I sensed the organisers were disappointed about the number of people who turned up.
- It was mainly good natured. There was lots of hissing and booing outside Downing Street. The police weren't overly concerned with this or the march in general.
- The slogans mainly concentrated on the issues like the Barnett formula, an English parliament. Or general vague assessments like "justice for England", "equal rights for England" etc.
- There were numerous groups of people there. After chatting with many and making observations. I would classify them as follows:
a) Some kind of libertarian anti-Europeans. I was handed a leaflet at one stage from someone arguing about low taxation, Europe's influence etc. So clearly they were using the march as a means of distributing other political info. These might have been from the Freedom Association.
b) The Civic Nationalists ( campaigning for an English parliament, dealing with the West Lothian question, England given the same choices as Scotland etc)
c) Those directly affected by the constitutional settlement. There were students complying about student fees, and at least one cancer patient.
d) An "English left". These see England as being better off out of an "imperialist union". I sensed there weren't many of them.
e) No overtly racist or far right groups. The only thing that concerned me was a bloke wearing an "Anglo-Saxon kith and kin" t-shirt. I asked him about it, and whether he was some kind of racist. He said he was pissed off with "celticness". That's all he said to me. There were one or two anti-Scottish comments on this march but were few in my opinion.
- The speeches to their credit stressed how it was for all the people of England, not for a race or ethnic group
- There were very few there who could not be classed as "white". I saw two people in and around the campaign who were from ethnic minorities. One was draped in the George Cross.
- Many people I asked had not heard of the Freedom Association or related organisations.
- Speaking to some members of The Campaign for an English Parliament, they said they were happy to be a part of the movement for the moment, but are watching it and see how it develops and what, if any, political direction it takes.
- Traditional party allegiance varied. There were some who used to be labour party members (like myself), though more would describe themselves as conservatives than anything else.
- Some people spoke of their frustration as having been tarred as being racist for going on the march.
- The response by the general public was generally positive, if a little bemused. Some horns were blared in support; other people were curious and asked what it was about. I saw one person in a coach gesticulate at us.
- At one stage I was walking with a member of the C.E.P who was in his 70's who had served in the navy. As the above mentioned "Anglo-Saxon kith and kin t-shirt" made an anti-Scottish remark, my companion turned to me and said the "the last thing we need is people being anti anything. It doesn't do us any favours and I saw far too much of that kind of thing in Palestine". Possibly the best comment I heard all day.
- I didn't hear a single rendition of Roots, thank god.
- On the whole I thought it positive and non-threatening and I'm glad the issues like the west Lothian question have been raised in England. Other may take a different view and have other observations. It will be interesting to see how this organisation develops.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 01 May 07 - 05:24 PM

AND HOW WAS THE MUSIC?

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Gulliver
Date: 01 May 07 - 09:18 PM

Swing low, sweet chariot...

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,George
Date: 02 May 07 - 09:58 AM

So, are you going to apoligise countess richard? Your fascist march didn't materialise.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 02 May 07 - 10:22 AM

Don't be ridiculous 'George', I'm not going to 'apoligise' (nor even apologise) for flagging up the obvious threat of the nasty right latching on to anything they can that's 'English'. As most people here are now aware, this sort of campaign is backed by some vile characters who try to infiltrate anything they can for their own political ends. I still believe that here on a music forum is no place to allow ads for such an event. I am however impressed that so many have had their eyes opened to the dangers and will scrutinise the activities of rabidly undemocratic Tory tossers rather more carefully. In this sense it has served its purpose.

Now go and play with a dragon.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 02 May 07 - 11:24 AM

We only have Guest Heed's word for things and he already misrepresented himself with the title of this thread.
For once, the Countess has nothing to apologize for.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 02 May 07 - 12:00 PM

I don't think i misrepresented myself. Please view my original post. My problem was not understanding the conventions of the forums. I fully expected this subject to go "down south" due to content not title. I've apologised that for what it is worth. As for you only having my word for this, you are right. I've not seem much other media comment apart from this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/07/uk_enl_1178020672/html/1.stm

Here are a few other that might give you a bit of an insite into the march.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lmiatoque/480565735/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lmiatoque/480580369/in/photostream/


And i'm not suprised about the way this converstaion has gone. others are having a similar experience.

http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2007/04/problem-with-english-devolution.html

I've realised that this issue is much more complicated that a case of whether there is a legitimate sense of greviance on one hand, or whether those taking part are far right loons. I have this conversation to thank for that.

Now maybe this thread should be allowed to die a death. If i start another thread i'll make sure that i clarify my subject matter.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,anonymous for my own safety
Date: 09 May 07 - 08:15 AM

My goodness, do you not have moderators on this site?

I admit to being something of an ingenue when it comes to forums, chatrooms and the like, but never before have I seen such vitriol displayed alongside such thoughtfulness.

So far I only belong to one other forum, which is concerned with a TV programme. Normally, I would advertise it because it's a great site, but there are people on this thread I hope never to meet again and I don't want it ruined. My point is that on that other site are a number of moderators who (a) publicly warn flamers and ban them if they do not heed warnings, and (b) move posts and whole threads to more relevant places when appropriate. The result is a consistently high level of friendliness and intelligent comment, and a feeling of community.

I only discovered this site yesterday, while googling the Sweeps Festival, and I haven't yet managed to understand the structure of it, but if anyone can explain to me what below-the-line means in this context I would be grateful.

Thank you

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 May 07 - 08:54 AM

Bellow the line is simply 'BS' - A non music topic. I wouldn't go into what the moderators do or do not do - There has been too much discussion of that already:-(

Out of interest I never got a response from the Justice for England campaign about their links to right wing sites and, having just checked, I see they have not been removed.

Speaks for itself don't you think?

Dave.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 09 May 07 - 12:19 PM

Anonymous for my own safety: The threads, above the line, are reserved for musical topics. A guest usurped this field in order to promote some kind of protest march. Given the history of such marches being a cover for racially intolerant groups such as "The National Front", many of us were somewhat suspicious and made things pretty difficult for that individual.
I am encouraged by the fact that so many of us have no time for such groups and put their own reputations on the line.
I am extremely saddened that some were offended by my own submissions and know that I have some serious ground to make up because of it.
British politics is not for the faint hearted nor did this topic ever belong on the music threads.
The moderators are simply on the wrong side of the Atlantic to understand what a minefield this subject is although, I do think that they should have caught on as it evolved.
If you have any interest in folk music at all then I suggest you get a handle, keep it and join in.
I am curious however, as to how you found this particular thread and this is the only one you have contributed to.
There are many, many, worthwhile music threads to follow, without ever going back into the archives.
Good Morning All!
from the dull grey Highlands.
Jim

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 May 07 - 12:52 PM

So do I have 'serious ground' to make up too? Don't think so and if I 'offended' a few proto-fascists, so much the better. I asked for the thread to be pulled in the 2nd post. As it wasn't, I continued in it from the point of view that the last thing English music needed was to be hijacked by the far right.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 09 May 07 - 01:00 PM

I only spoke for myself, Countess.
I stand by my earlier quote...
"For once, the Countess has nothing to apologize for."
Sincerely.
Jim

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Puck
Date: 09 May 07 - 02:00 PM

To HEED - There's a shame - poor ol' hard done by England!!

Teeny Weeney cheeselumps.

P

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbins (no, not that one)
Date: 09 May 07 - 02:28 PM

'last thing English music needed was to be hijacked by the far right.'

or the far left....

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 09 May 07 - 02:57 PM

Let this one die & bury it where Heed will never find it again!

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 May 07 - 03:01 AM

Well, I can't say I see much music in this thread, now that I look at it. Plenty of vitriol, as stated in at least one message above, but sometimes I stink some vitriol can be healthy...

Below, you go.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Toobusybee
Date: 10 May 07 - 09:05 AM

Interesting? Thread, kept me amused in my lunch break

Just a couple of notes for Countess Richard - The Stone of Destiny (Stone of Scone) is now in Edinburgh Castle, has been since c1996

Telling John B (the assumed) Canadian poster to get out of the discussion if he knew nothing about the diggers - Why, because a person is not English (Scots, Irish, Welsh) assume that they don't know about this part of English (British)history? I studied history for my degree, including the English Civil War and the Century of Revolution and all my tutors were from the USA, and very good they were too.

Also (I know I'm on dodgy ground here)I would think that if Flora MacDonald's husband supported the Royalist cause in Scotland, just because it failed would not make him a republican, and therefore he'd rather have monarchist rule in America (just a thought). Don't forget, Cromwell never wanted to get rid of the monarchy, just Charles 1st.

Got to get back to work now.

Toobusybee

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Ned Quatermass
Date: 10 May 07 - 01:35 PM

now where were we?

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Toobusybee
Date: 11 May 07 - 06:56 AM

I wasn't being vitriolic, just interested as it covered a period which I had studied. Although my office is pretty chock full of history graduates we're all rather busy to have more than 5-10 minutes discussions of anything that is not work related - luckily we do work in HE (not a university)and we bring in scholars from the Commonwealth so it's interesting to discuss some of the scholars proposed research topics.

Toobusybee

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Heed
Date: 11 May 07 - 09:53 AM

I though this had died! A few points:
1) One of the organisers of the Justice for England March, Ed Abrahams, is jewish.
2) Should all "right wingers" to be despised? Including those of the centre right?
3) Is libertarianism right wing?

I'm confused?

Subject: RE: BS: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Paddy
Date: 11 May 07 - 12:20 PM

The Liberals in Scotland are denying the Scottish people the choice of a referendum on whether they want independence or not! Some Liberals!