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BS: Justice For England, English protest songs

GUEST,Heed 27 Apr 07 - 04:29 AM
The Borchester Echo 27 Apr 07 - 04:47 AM
GUEST,heed 27 Apr 07 - 05:02 AM
GUEST,heed 27 Apr 07 - 05:07 AM
The Borchester Echo 27 Apr 07 - 05:20 AM
The Barden of England 27 Apr 07 - 05:26 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Apr 07 - 05:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Apr 07 - 05:33 AM
The Borchester Echo 27 Apr 07 - 05:36 AM
GUEST 27 Apr 07 - 05:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Apr 07 - 05:39 AM
The Borchester Echo 27 Apr 07 - 05:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Apr 07 - 05:42 AM
The Borchester Echo 27 Apr 07 - 05:44 AM
GUEST 27 Apr 07 - 05:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Apr 07 - 05:58 AM
The Borchester Echo 27 Apr 07 - 06:23 AM
GUEST 27 Apr 07 - 06:37 AM
Grab 27 Apr 07 - 06:41 AM
The Barden of England 27 Apr 07 - 06:44 AM
GUEST 27 Apr 07 - 06:44 AM
Richard Bridge 27 Apr 07 - 07:11 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Apr 07 - 07:28 AM
GUEST,Terry McDonald 27 Apr 07 - 07:30 AM
The Borchester Echo 27 Apr 07 - 07:44 AM
GUEST,heed 27 Apr 07 - 08:02 AM
GUEST,heed 27 Apr 07 - 08:05 AM
GUEST,Terry McDonald 27 Apr 07 - 08:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Apr 07 - 08:32 AM
Richard Bridge 27 Apr 07 - 08:44 AM
Richard Bridge 27 Apr 07 - 08:45 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Apr 07 - 08:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Apr 07 - 09:01 AM
The Borchester Echo 27 Apr 07 - 09:13 AM
Stu 27 Apr 07 - 09:39 AM
The Borchester Echo 27 Apr 07 - 10:14 AM
GUEST,Terry McDonald 27 Apr 07 - 10:19 AM
GUEST,heed 27 Apr 07 - 10:38 AM
Ruth Archer 27 Apr 07 - 11:05 AM
GUEST,heed 27 Apr 07 - 11:44 AM
GUEST,Terry McDonald 27 Apr 07 - 11:55 AM
GUEST 27 Apr 07 - 11:58 AM
Stu 27 Apr 07 - 12:02 PM
The Borchester Echo 27 Apr 07 - 12:03 PM
Mr Fox 27 Apr 07 - 12:18 PM
Jack Campin 27 Apr 07 - 12:24 PM
GUEST,heed 27 Apr 07 - 12:28 PM
GUEST,heed 27 Apr 07 - 12:34 PM
Richard Bridge 27 Apr 07 - 12:35 PM
The Borchester Echo 27 Apr 07 - 12:44 PM

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Subject: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Heed
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:29 AM

There is a demonstration that is taking place in Central London on May the 1st that is of striking significance in England. A group of English men and women have got together to protest against the union of Britain. Their discontent covers many issues, but they are an outward display of the simmering discontent from more and more English people over this government and it's perceived disregard of the English. I firstly want to shamelessly plug this demonstration and wonder whether there are any sympathisers here (or not for that matter), and, perhaps more relevantly, ask whether this discontent is beginning to appear in the folk songs of England, whether you agree with it or not. Is anybody writing about any of the following?

- West Lothian question (aka denying democracy and self determination to the English, but allowing it for the other home nations).
- Cancer drugs being denied the English.
- The Barnett formula.
- English having to pay for prescription charges.
- English students having to pay for student top up fees.
- English schools having to teach Britishness lessons, when other nations schools do not.
- England being split up into regions.
- A Scottish constituency soon-to-be pm that decides English only legislation, but can't decide Scottish policy because it is handled by the Scottish parliament.
- Ditto for ministries like health and education.
- Being told that the English don't exist as a nation.

If you are interested in the demonstration taking place then you can view more details here:

http://www.justiceforengland.com/may_march.htm

Thank you.


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:47 AM

What a whingeing, divisive, xenophobic, site.
Scant surprise then that it's supported by that bunch of right-wing nutters, The 'Freedom' Association.
Personally, I resent strongly this latest attempt to hijack English traditional music for such low-down, divide-and-rule purposes.
Can some Joe clone please close the thread now before any benighted reader actually believes it?


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:02 AM

I'm afraid it's not a site for a bunch of right-wing nutters. I as a member of the Campaign for an English Parlaiment am going to the march purely to ask for the same rights as scotland: a parlaiment! I suggest you read a bit more deeply. I'm not a member of the freedom association, but was a memebr of the labour party. Sadly you attitude is just what many of us at the Campaign for an English Parliamnet loath: People who see those campaigning for the the same right as Scotland as xenophobic. This subject has received much more considered attention from the national press. Many of who see the benefits for a national paliament for england . Like i said do your research more thouroughly and don't give in in to knee jerk reactions. before you replay perhaps you had better reseach the barnett formula and the west lothian question. They were even mentioned on the bbc news last night!


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:07 AM

from the campaign for an english parlaiments web site:

"The people of England include everyone for whom England is both their home and future, irrespective of ethnic origin, religion and culture. For our nation our own parliament is our constitutional right"

re: http://www.thecep.org.uk/

still think we're "right wing"?


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:20 AM

If Guest: heed is so very concerned about 'England', perhaps s/he might pay more attention to its language, orthography and syntax.
I am sure most Mudcat posters are fully aware of the implications of the West Lothian question but fail to see any possible relevance to music.
German traditional music, used by the Nazis for such vile purposes, has yet to recover and re-emerge from university music departments.
This is no more than yet another attempt to draw in English trad into a narrow, fascist cesspit.
Don't let it. Music is universal and national descriptions are purely geographical, not an excuse for division on nationalistic lines.
This thread has no place in a music forum.


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Barden of England
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:26 AM

I see that Countess Richard is guilty of the thing she constantly accuses others of not doing. I just hope she takes her own advice and actually reads the wording on the site. I can see nothing xenophobic in there, just asking for the same rights as others in the United Kingdon have. I wish we had the same laws as Scotland regarding live music for example. And before you go off on one Countess Richard I'm not xenophobic (I lived abroad happily for 4 years, and not in some British enclave), have no prejudice regarding race, creed or colour, and see legal immigrants to this country as a welcome addition. I hate the BNP and all it stands for, and as has been said before 'It's my flag and I want it back'. The Scots, Irish and Welsh proudly wave theirs, so why shouldn't I, especially on St. Georges day.
John Barden


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:27 AM

I don't see anything wrong with the site or the idea but I am prepared to be educated. What is wrong with a little bit of English 'nationalism' or national pride as long as it isn't exclusionist? The Irish, Scots and Welsh all have there own identity and governance - why not the English? Can anyone address the issues brought up by heed in the first post with sensible arguments as to why the English people are being treated differently to the other members of the union? And before I am accused of being a right wing xenophobic nutter I can assure you that nothing is further from the truth! Well, maybe the nutter bit. No-one who wants to introduce Morris dancing as a national pastime can be quite right in the head...

Cheers

Dave.


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:33 AM

Oh - and I would recommend Show of Hands "Roots" for an anthem but I suspect the Countess will have something to say about that as well. But to try and get this online as a music thread here are the words anyway:-P

All away boys, let them go,
All in the wind and the rain and snow.
We've lost more than we'll ever know,
On the rocky shores of England.

Now it's been 25 years or more,
I've roamed this land from shore to shore.
From Tyne to Tame, or Severn to Thames,
From Moor to Vale, from Peak to Fen.
Played in cafes, and pubs and bars,
I've stood in the street with my own guitar.
But I'd be richer than all the rest,
If I had a pound for each request,
For "Duelling Banjos", "American Pie" -- it's enough to make you cry.
"Rule Britannia", or "Swing Lo",
Are they the only songs we English know?

Seed, bud, flower, fruit,
They're never gonna grow without their roots.
Branch, stem, shoots.
They need roots!

All away boys, let them go,
On the rocky shores of England.

After the speeches when the cake's been cut, the disco's over and the bar is shut.
At Christening, Birthday, Wedding or Wake,
What can we sing until the morning breaks?
When the Indian-Asians, Afro-Kelts -- it's in their blood below the belt.
They're playing and dancing all night long,
So what've they got right that we've got wrong?

Seed, bud, flower, fruit,
Never gonna grow without their roots.
Branch, stem, shoots.
We need roots!

And all away boys, let them go,
All in the wind and the rain and snow.
We've lost more than we'll ever know,
On the rocky shores of England.

All away boys, let them go,
All in the wind and the rain and snow.
We've lost more than we'll ever know,
On the rocky shores of England.

We need roots!

And the minister said his vision of hell is 3 folk singers in a pub near Wells.
Well I've got a vision of urban sprawl.
It's pubs where no one ever sings at all.
And everyone stares at a great big screen,
Overpaid soccer stars, prancing teens,
Australian soap, American rap, Estuary English, baseball caps.
And we learn to be ashamed before we walk,
Of the way we look and the way we talk.
Without our stories, or our songs,
How will we know where we come from?
I've lost St George in the Union Jack,
It's my flag too and I want it back!

Seed, bud, flower, fruit,
Never gonna grow without their roots.
Branch, stem, shoots.
We need roots!

And all away boys, let them go,
All in the wind and the rain and snow.
We've lost more than we'll ever know,
On the rocky shores of England.

All away boys, let them go,
All in the wind and the rain and snow.
We've lost more than we'll ever know,
On the rocky shores of England.

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:36 AM

still think we're "right wing"?

Yes.
And I think that this forum is no place to try and advertise it.
John Barden, you're being taken in bigtime.
No, there's nothing at all wrong with loving your country but why stop at the borders and resent those who live across them?
I'm for the preservation and extension of democratic rights to everyone on Both Sides Of The Tweed, actually.
And totally against the hijacking of English trad as a symbol of racial superiority.


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:37 AM

"heed is so very concerned about 'England', perhaps s/he might pay more attention to its language, orthography and syntax."

Would love to, but sadly i'm a product of thatcher's britain. And if my english skills are poor, why of earth does that not qualify from commenting on cetian issues? I see! You are arguing that because my english may be poor i'm not qualified to talk about "england". That sound liks facism to me. You nasty facist you! ;0)

On a more serious note, i agree that English trad (and any folk music) can be in danger of being mis appropriated by the far right. But surely it can be used for political protest songs. Didn't the proclaimers write a protest song about being ruled by england? is that okay? Or is that fascist? Didn't Chumbawamba cover english protest songs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Rebel_Songs_1381-1984 .Why can't they be used to question the west lothion question?

Look, maybe i'm being a little niave, and maybe i should have separated the two subjects of the demo and the music. I appologise for this. But the question remains. Are such issues as the west lothina question, barnett formula, coming into folk music? And i suppose we should extend that by saying are they relevant subjects?


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:39 AM

but why stop at the borders and resent those who live across them?


Has anyone remotely suggested that there is any resentment for other Btitons? I think not. I am more than happy for the other nations to get free prescriptions, higher education etc. and good luck to them. All I need to see is a decent valid argument as to why the English should not benefit as well.

Dave


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:40 AM

Omigod, fucking SoH again.
Roots is a socially divisive rant and it was quite amusing when Mr Knighley struggled to defend his derorgatory reference to 'estuary English' on Radio Essex.
Outta here.


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:42 AM

Good:-)


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:44 AM

Apologies for the typo in 'derogatory'.
Fascist loonies make my hands shake.


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:47 AM

"Fascist loonies make my hands shake. "
Well that's not me. But you certainly make my head shake in wonder.


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:58 AM

I suppose it must be me then, heed. Brought up by a father who left Poland in WW2 to escape the German right wing and Russian left wing facists and a part Welsh, part English Mother who hated anything to do with political interference. I must be the typical Nazi - betrayed by the fact that I regulary visit my Jewish, Moslem and Hindu friends and have been asked to arrange some 'typicaly English' folk acts at the local West Indian community centre.

Don't worry about it, heed. Facist is an oft used term here. Usualy applied to someone who disagrees with the viewpoints of some members.

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 06:23 AM

'Fascist' is a term which is, and will continue to be, used by me towards right-wing, narrow-minded little Englanders who stir up hatred against anyone who is 'different' or who has or appears to have something they want. Divide and rule: we want it and you can't have it. Whether you call it a flag, a house, a job or whatever, it comes down to one thing: power. The tragic (or maybe it's not) point is that it doesn't end up empowering them but those who pull the strings.

Whatever, such nasty propaganda has no place on a music forum except when it's a matter of music being hijacked for the aims of the far right. You haven't heard of this? Go and research those artists who have had to fight to get their work or any mention of it wrested from the publicity machines of such filthy outfits. Then go figure.

Really gone.


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 06:37 AM

whoops pressed wrong button there.
My great grandmother was a gypsy! Not saying which one though! Grandmother that is, not what gypsy she was.


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Grab
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 06:41 AM

English schools having to teach Britishness lessons, when other nations schools do not.

Check out Wales. What else do you think compulsory Welsh lessons are for? As far as "Britishness lessons" goes, those are a measure of immigrant numbers - Wales and Scotland are notably short on immigrants compared to English cities.

England being split up into regions.

It's a big place, with a lot of people. Where I live in Cambridge has a lot in common with London and Kent economy-wise. Where I lived before in Stafford is a very different place. And Lancashire (where I was brought up) is different again.

- English having to pay for prescription charges.
- English students having to pay for student top up fees.


Each area has a limited pot of money, and it depends on how they choose to spend it. Both of those come at a cost of other services.

FWIW, the Scots also have a legitimate grievance in that North Sea oil and gas is *Scottish* not English. Scotland is supporting England in that respect, not vice versa.

Being told that the English don't exist as a nation.

Are we? Certainly the papers like to try it, but that's usually as a straw man to push the argument the other way.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Barden of England
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 06:44 AM

I don't believe I'm being taken in Countess Richard, but I'm with you all the way regarding democratic rights to everyone on Both Sides Of The Tweed, something which unfortunately we really don't have, also regarding the hijacking of English trad for the loathsome few who preach racial superiority. I do worry however that whenever I want to celebrate my English heritage (although of course with a surname like mine you can also see my Irish Heritage, and my mother being a Brown, my Scottish heritage) by showing George's flag, I am perceived as being racially abusive. Some do abuse it, but there is a vast majority who shouldn't be painted with that same brush. I just want to celebrate in the same manner as the Scots, Welsh and Irish do.

Finally, I also agree that this should be below the line.
John Barden


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 06:44 AM

so to ask the question again, and to ignore the issue of the march

"Are such issues as the west lothian question, barnett formula, coming into folk music? And i suppose we should extend that by saying are they relevant subjects?"


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 07:11 AM

Funny, I often agree with you Countess, but this time I think it is you who is displaying the prejudice.

Incidentally, are you the same Countess Richard as the Countess Richard on myspace? My "friend" request (please do NOT out my identity there here) made on that assumption is unanswered.


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 07:28 AM

I am really puzzled now. I read the site quoted and could find no "Narrow-minded little Englanders" stiring up hatred against anything or anyone. So I read it again, more carefully, and still can see none. Nor can I find any evidence of facism, right wing or otherwise, in there. Just where is the "nasty propaganda" or evidence of "filthy outfits". Can anyone find me examples of anything malicious on the quoted site or even anything that can be vaguely construes as racist? If so I will happily steer clear but until such a time as they are proven guilty I don't see how I can consider them anything other than innocent.

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 07:30 AM

It's people like the Countess who have made me reluctant to sign up as a Mudcat memeber - her first response to something she doesn't agree with is to ask for it to be removed.


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 07:44 AM

Don't you people know who The 'Freedom' Association are?

I think such a blatant, non-music-related plug ought to be removed because it has nothing to do with music except obliquely, as a threat to hijack English music by the nasty right.

And we would be spared even more idiotic outpourings of Roots.


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 08:02 AM

I don't know who the freedon association are, and i'm going on the march. Perhaps i should have found out. However, i am a member of the campaign for an english parliament, who are a single issue cause group. I can repreat what i said earlier about it campaigning for an english parlaiment for all the people of england, even you countess. I have been a bit cheeky by combining the two issue, the demo and whether the issues of such protests will appear in protest songs. Perhaps i should have separated them into separate threads. Sorry for that. But I am genuinily interested to know whether the constitutional irregulities and unfainess that is the result of devolution will appear in protest songs. Put like that then maybe not, because if appears dry and boring. But when explained as the english being denied the right to self determination, fairness and democracy, which in my opionion we clearly are, then i would suggest that the are quite legitimate and very now! incidently i do not blame the scots or welsh for this, i blame this government and their power crazy tendencies.


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 08:05 AM

It seems the march organisers and some of the people going on the march have similar concers as you. to quote from the site:

"Some people have expressed concern about far right groups infiltrating our rally to further their own agendas.
- First and foremost, this is a peaceful, non-political rally that will be supported by families, children, pensioners and the infirm. Although we would obviously like to see as many people as possible there, it must not be at the expense of the
integrity of the majority."

re: http://www.justiceforengland.com/may_march.htm


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 08:07 AM

Anyone know the difference between the nasty right and the nasty left? They've always struck me as being pretty similar.


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 08:32 AM

I don't know who the freedom association are either but this is NOT their site anyway. There is a link to their site, along with a link to Connexus web hosting and the Englsh music festival. Are all these nasty right wing organisations?

I followed the link by the way. All I could see was an association founded in 1975 by a guy who has won a VC and the McWhirter twins (Of Guiness book of records fame). It must have been shortly after it's formation that Ross McWhirter was shot by the IRA although I don't know if that is in any way significant. The organisation now seems primarily concerned with getting the UK out of the EU. There is no sign, as far as I can see, of any hidden facist agenda.

I say the UK specificaly above to answer the question someone raised about who was suggesting that England does not exist. Well, try the EU. Scotland and Wales are both countries in their own rights according to the EU because they have their own governments or assemblies. England is not classed as a country because it does not have a government. I am in no way suggesting that anything should change for the other British countries. I am not decrying anything they have done. All I am asking for is the same treatment for England.

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 08:44 AM

The McWhirters' Freedom Association was indeed a nasty right wing union bashing organisation, and I would much rather not be in bed with them (or the IRA). But baby, bathwater, you know?


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 08:45 AM

And I rather like "Roots" the song, and I strongly dislike estuarine English.


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 08:48 AM

Eeeek. Don't remember them but I was not politicaly motivated at all in the 70's. Looking at their website now it seems that they have a different agenda.


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 09:01 AM

As to the union bashing - Not my scene at all but right wing union bashers were a direct backlash to the envisaged control that left wing unions had on the country. Whether it was real or imagined is accademic now but without one we would not have had the other. As to who started it - who knows or cares now? In either case it has very little to do with the Justice for England campaign but as usual red herrings have been thrown in the way of some very sensible ideas.

At the end of the day there is little point in discussing it. There will be peple who will never agree and they are as entitled to their opinions as anyone else. I do wish however that the politicaly correct, better than everyone else, brigade would stop labeling all of us who disagree with their narrow viewpoints as right wing facists.

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 09:13 AM

At the press launch of the National Association For Freedom (as it was in 1975), Norris McWhirter appeared alone, his twin brother Ross having been killed a day or two earlier. Their agenda then was somewhat different from now as it consisted of crushing Asian workers' struggle for union recognition and getting Thatcher elected. Nowadays of course Grunwick-stylee working conditions are the norm and they look for different ways to divide society. 'Englishness' will do but it's still fascism. Nick Griffin on The World At One (BBC Radio News programme) was only a few minutes ago expanding on how the BNP was moving into English market towns with very low levels of immigration, canvassing votes from those whom its adherants were convincing to vote for them and 'keep the East Europeans out'.

None of which, of course, has anything to do with music . . . except that in Another Place only yesterday I read an anti-Polish 'joke' from a resident racist who has hitherto specialised in describing African music as 'bonga-bonga'.


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Stu
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 09:39 AM

The McWhirters were rabid right-wingers and not really very nice people IMHO, and The Freedom Association seem to have carried on their tradition of small-minded tory tosserdom into the 21st Century. Any organisation that has Norman Tebbit as a member strikes me as being deeply suspect.

But Countess Richard often flings in words like 'Xenophobic' and 'facist' whenever any discussion on the subject of English national identity cames up (and avoids debate - slagging off people's spelling and grammar is not a good debating skill - it's a poor attempt to belittle the other person involved in the discourse). I suppose she thinks Billy Bragg, Coope Boyes and Simpson, Mike Harding and Tom Robinson are all right-wing facist bigots for supporting 'Roots' as a manifesto for English culture in popular culture.

Anyway, I feel ambivalent towards the idea of an English Parliament (preferring regional assemblies, which would allow the various regions to be more independent of any power base in the South East of the country). The West Lothian question needs addressing in some way whatever happens.

One thing I would agree with the countess on though is the appropriation of traditional music by any political organisation is to be thundered against. However, the role of individual political activism in folk music (especially during the revival) can't be denied, and has provided us with some fine music over the years.


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 10:14 AM

No I don't. I EMPLOY words like 'xenophobic' and 'fascist' because I know how to spell them and because, in the context of English national identity they are apposite. And I don't criticise poor grammar and spelling as a substitute for debate but to emphasise that those who cannot be arsed to use the language correctly make it extremely difficult (as in this case) to determine just what (if anything) they are on about. Thatcher is to blame for many things but I hardly think a person's inadequacy of expression is anything but their own fault.

And you suppose wrongly that I think anything of the sort about those to whom you ascribe an opinion about a Knightley song. Most people know that musically, I myself consider Roots mediocre and lyrically, socially divisive bordering on racist. I don't actually know what any of the people you list (with the exception of Mike Harding, ha!) think about it, nor am I bothered. (Though I'm pretty damn sure Mr Bragg doesn't prefer it to his own song . . . )

In fact you miss the point entirely (why doesn't that surprise me in a forum where actually reading the thread is an option rarely exercised?) I am objecting to the publicising of a reactionary demonstration on Mayday of all days in an inappropriate forum. Though since it IS here (and apparently here to stay, I'm taking the opportunity to warn against the danger of the misappropriation of English music by those unfit to touch it.


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 10:19 AM

'I, myself.......?'


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 10:38 AM

countess
I will add that you do seem to have a tendency to dismiss people's ability/intelligence if you disagree strongly with their opinion. You dismiss my opinion because of my grasp of english (subtext: i'm stupid). You then do it again because i can't be "arsed" (subtext: i'm lazy). Then you dismiss other people for not reading the thread (subtext: stupid and lazy). Give people a bit of credit please.

You are right about my english. It's not the best is it? Me and my reliance on a spell checker is probably to blame, but it's not that i can't be arsed. It's just that i don't have your quality of english, at least in terms of the language, not necessarily about the issues of english identity.

Anyway, i'm off to read "eats, roots and leaves". I think it's about an irate folkie who gets so angry with the show of hands song that he has to consume every copy of it. But i might be wrong.


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 11:05 AM

I have to say, I think the title "Justice for England" is rather emotive and stirs up the wrong sort of sentiment. But if you want people to assume your politics are of the Daily Mail variety, it's a perfectly good title to use...


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 11:44 AM

"Justice for England is rather emotive and stirs up the wrong sort of sentiment". Why should it be like that? It's the dreaded E word isn't it? England = nasty? The aims of the march and particularly benign, and non - treatening. It is really about issues such as an English parliament (or lack of it), the Barnett formula etc...

I believe the union is on its last legs. SNP winning the election in Scotland, and English only legislation being decided by a Scottish constituency mp (Gordon Brown will effectively be first minister of England) will bring these issues more to the fore. They can't be ignored but they can be dealt with reasonably.

ref: civic english nationalism
re: http://www.thecep.org.uk/news/ViewItem.asp?Entry=731


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 11:55 AM

Do I detect a subtext from the antis here? An English parliament would produce (whisper it...............) a Tory government and that's more than some contributors to this thread could countenance. Mind you, given ten years of Tony Blair, would they be able to tell the difference?


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 11:58 AM

An english parliament wouldn't necessarily produce a tory gov, if elected by pr. More likely a lib-lab pact.


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Stu
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:02 PM

"In fact you miss the point entirely"

Perhaps I did, probably because the point was poorly argued and obscured by polemic and vitriol. This tirade against people's ability to spell and write reeks of snobbishness and intolerance.

The assumption Messrs Bragg et al support the sentiment of Roots isn't unreasonable as they sang on it. Harding seems to play it on a weekly basis (and had Knightly on the show this week defending himself against the very criticism you level at him). Whether it's better or worse than anything Billy Bragg has done is utterly irrelevant - and subjective.

Are words like 'xenophobic' and 'facist' apposite to the issue English cutural identity? They are if they are the only aspects of the subject that are discussed. Whilst the perceived right-wing overtones of English nationalism are well-known, the idea that English identity has to forever associated with them is tantamount to capitulating to this unpalatable and disturbing doctrine.

Truth is, there is a movement to reclaiming an inclusive, multicultural English identity similar to the one's enjoyed by the Irish, Scottish and Welsh. When the English football team plays, flags appear everywhere in a show of support and are flown and waved without people feeling racist, right-wing or self-conscious. It removes the feeling of partialness that is at the core of English self-doubt about their roots and place in the world, even if only for a short time.

Most people don't have any exposure or interest in traditional English music or dance - this is a cultural reference that is lost on them and in some ways many folk musicians are happy to keep it that way - you sense the disdain shown for popular culture from the holier-than-thou brigade when you read some of the posts here on Mudcat and other forums where the presence of the general public can be seen as a positive infringement on the work of these 'carriers of the tradition'.

This discontent heed talks about in his original post is now seeping into folk music, but has been there in many ways too for years. Beer and Knightly's song can been seen as vulgar and trashy by the folk bourgeoisie, but the fact is it reflects the zeitgeist of the present and lots of people who don't normally listen to folk music are taking notice. It's true that some undesirable elements are attracted to it due their misreading of the sentiment, but that problem is not exclusive to just right-wing nutters.


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:03 PM

I was not at all initially 'dismissing' the author of this rather more than distastefully entitled thread's 'ability/intelligence' (even though s/he claims never to have heard of The Freedom Association. Gulp). Merely having difficulty in grasping what s/he was on about and thus giving rather more benefit of the doubt than is clearly deserved.

But is 'heed' really going to eat up every SoH song? This is good. Very good. Just don't spit out any bits.

'I, myself.......?'

Indeed, yes. A rhetorical device to emphasise that it is merely my opinion. Not that anyone else who doesn't share it isn't wrong. Oh no.


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Mr Fox
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:18 PM

Not ANOTHER attempt by the far right to hijack English folk music.

WE'RE NOT INTERESTED. SOD OFF AND DIE!


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:24 PM

I would bet that anybody who sees the Barnett formula as a problem

(a) doesn't see a problem with the allocation of Scotland's oil resources
(b) sees the idea of allocating any resources at all to even poorer countries further away from England as even more reprehensible.

That is, Polshaw appears to want us all to sing in praise of thieving selfish hypocrites.

Lobster magazine has the real scoop on the Freedom Association. Look up their archives.


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:28 PM

Well the creator of the Barnett formula thought it a problem. To quote lord Barnett.

'It was never meant to last this long but it has gone on and on and it has become increasingly unfair to England. I didn't create this formula to give Scotland an advantage over the rest of Britain when it comes to public funding ... It is a great embarrassment to have my name attached to so unfair a system.'


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:34 PM

well it's controverial and difficult to understand, but here are a few snippets of news about the barnett formula (pros and cons etc..) to get you thinking, if you "can be arsed"

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=51&id=34822004

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/05/10/nelec310.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/05/10/ixnewstop.html


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:35 PM

The march does seem to have some toads attached to it - but someone has to defend and seek to preserve the English and their heritage.


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Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 12:44 PM

Not wishing to cast aspersions on the herpetological genus (some of which are very nice), but surely we can preserve the English cultural heritage without this dubious 'help'.


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