BS: Justice For England, English protest songs

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 08:13 AM

I posted this originally on 1st March this year on the thread that ended up below the line and had its title changed to "Show of Hands (Recipes)".

"I suspect that Show of Hands may find Lizzie's continued over-enthusiasm for Roots somewhat less disturbing than the political associations of some of their new supporters. Someone has posted a link to www.justiceforengland.com on their official message board. The aspirations of justiceforengland look rather innocent until you see that its website in turn is linked to the likes of The Freedom Association, who when I last checked used to be run by people who thought Margaret Thatcher was a bit too wet for their tastes.

There is however some light comedy there too. There is also a link on justiceforengland to a site called "We Are The English", complete with a picture of Winston Churchill. I don't think anyone has told "We Are The English" that Winnie was only half-English and that his other half was just a bit American. They are going to be just so disappointed when the penny finally drops. On the other hand, they've only had a century and a bit to find that out so perhaps they never will. Funnily enough, the minor stumbling block of his transatlantic parentage aside, I thought Winston won the BBC poll for "Greatest Ever Briton" not "Greatest Ever Englishperson", so I'm not quite sure why "We The English" have cyber-napped him".

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 08:05 AM

Quote from OP "ask whether this discontent is beginning to appear in the folk songs of England, whether you agree with it or not. Is anybody writing about any of the following?"

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 07:42 AM

Look at the site, mate and see who's involved.
As not just me but others above have already done.
Thanks John Barden, Dick Miles and anyone else who's bothered to look into it.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: sapper82
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 07:37 AM

Countess,
Why do you persist in referring to the Justice For England movement as Fascist?

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 07:26 AM

There is no reason why the English should not have protest songs

Who said they shouldn't?
And who is it that's accepting complaints about the English?
Are you feeling OK, Mr Bridge? I'm getting just a tiny bit concerned . . .

Yes, there ARE a lot of posts by me here. It's because I have to keep ON coming back and explaining that the only reason why I entered this thread was to say that ads from fascists are not acceptable on a music forum.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 07:20 AM

A clear danger is posed by those who slide from objection to loony right-wingers into the acceptance of all complaints about the English but none by the English.

There is no reason why the English should not have protest songs.

As for who's Shambling, just count the posts and watch the ranting.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 06:43 AM

It is not interesting, indeed it is boring in the extreme, how some labororiously pick out the odd word or two without regard for the syntactical context in which they are employed, then mindlessly sloganise their random prejudices.

It is blindingly clear to me (and always has been) what the agenda of those behind this website is, and it is for this reason that I believe their ad should have been erased. Others are free (at the moment) to take a different view, believing apparently that anyone should be at liberty to say what they want, however abhorrent. No-one has called THEM fascists but merely emphasised the loony, far-right tosser provenance of what they appear to be upholding, and invited them to look further. It is cheering that some have.

The aspect of what the far right has been, and still is, attempting to do with our traditional music is a separate one which even the OP has conceded ought to have been addressed separately.

Juxtaposing 'the dangers of the left' and 'the lessons of the Soviet Union' in one vague sentence is bizarre and misleading. If anyone (with experience of the role of folk arts both in former socialist countries and in the so-called 'West') wants to debate (offlist) the various implications of what occurred, please feel free.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: sapper82
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 06:23 AM

Interesting how some people still fail to recognise the dangers of the left by ignoring the lessons of the Soviet Union whilst simultainiously screaming "FASCIST" at anyone who dare to contradict them!.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 05:18 AM

no fascists,are generally xenophobic,they blame social inequality upon the fault of some other race,rather than the fault of the capitalist system,or the mismanagement of capitalism.
Mosley blamed the jews,Colin Jordan blamed the Blacks,Hitler blamed the Jews.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 05:15 AM

Sigh.
Muddled Thinking Department Shows No Sign Of Shrinking.
DO go and sort out your knickers, 'sapper82'.
READ the list of distasteful tossers involved in this vile venture and in particular, if you can't be arsed to actually read what I have to say, take note of the observations of Captain Birdseye and others passim who actually realise the dangers we are up against.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: sapper82
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 05:08 AM

A definition is required here;
Fascist = Someone who disagrees with Countess Richard.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 04:55 AM

Hey, and I got #100!

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 04:54 AM

If anybody's doing any Shambling it's Richard Bridge.
Good old Roger would scream 'no censorship' and I'd mostly agree.
Not over blatant ads by Tory tossers who seek white supremacy, control and power over our lives, though.
In this case, it's still 'No Platform For Racists And Fascists'.
If Richard want them to have one, I'd like to know how he proposes to deal with the consequences.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Barden of England
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 04:49 AM

Thanks to countess richard I've revisited the site, and having clicked some of the links (something which I didn't do before) I must say she has a valid point. Some of those sites don't reflect what is being said on the first site. If the purpose of the site is to get you to go to the others then I must agree wholeheartedly with countess richard - and I thank her for pointing it out.
John Barden

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 04:40 AM

Grammar! That is unlike you, Countess.

I regret to say that I am starting to get the feeling that this thread is being somewhat Shambled, if I may coin that verb.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 04:12 AM

Hello Richard, my knickers are untwisted and I'm not the one with the comprehension problem.
Where have I complained about the performance of any song or piece of music?
What I called for was the removal of an ad for an event organised by the loony right as I don't believe that it is the role of a music forum to give a platform to racists and fascists. Nor for them to attempt to hijack English music for their own vile aims.
If this convoluted discussion has:
(a) opened some eyes to the nasty activities of The Freedom Association and its Tebbit-like henchpersons and
(b) to the diversity and non-exclusivity of trad music and English culture in general,
this is a Good Thing.
Now will you all go away and sort out your knicker drawers and play a few ever so multicultural Playford tunes as you do it? Mine are fine.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Apr 07 - 03:58 AM

no, anything that is linked to the freedom association,has got to be scrutinised carefully.
TheFreedom association are supporters of the conservative party,they clearly believe that an English parliament will result in a conservative victory,if this happens you can forget about pensioners getting an increase,English students being treated fairly.
O and since until quite recently they were the Conservative and unionist party,their policies on ulster need to be looked at carefully.
SOME supporters of this may be genuine PATRIOTS[and not xenophobes] and not HAVE ULTERIOR MOTIVES,but the freedom association is a strange bedfellow to be working with.,you may also find your movenment gets infiltrated by the British Nationalist party.,and the freedom association.
the new party back in the 1930 s,was eventuallytaken over by Sir Oswald Mosley,and became aFASCIST PARTY.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 07:25 PM

English folk song will tell of the vicissitudes of the groups in which the folk song arose. Thus any particular folk song may be, as we would call it to day, left-wing or right-wing. So I think, Countess, that you are rather getting your knickers in a twist.

Would you not be better off complaining about the modern performance of folk songs that glorify the killing of the English? - If mirror images of them were performed by the English about other ethnic groups, the said English would be at risk of being charged with inciting racial hatred (compare the time when a re-enactment group sang the English words to "Die Lindenbaum" in the presence of a fairly obviously Jewish accordian player, who was most offended).

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 06:59 PM

I don't want an English parliament. It's only be as London-centric as the rest of the political infrastructure - totally useless. I'd like a parliament for the East Midlands, thank you very much.

Anyone else feeling under-represented? How bout a parliament for Shropshire? Hull? Freedom for Tooting?

'"Justice for England is rather emotive and stirs up the wrong sort of sentiment". Why should it be like that? It's the dreaded E word isn't it? England = nasty?'

ummm...no. It's the fact that "Justice for England" reminds me of the kind of Daily Mail headlines which whip up paranoia and resentment about all of these fundamental rights which are supposedly being eroded by immigration and such.

England is great. English culture is fab. Let's do everything we can to support it. But we don't need to do so by setting it up in opposition to other people and cultures. That's playing into the hands of the fascists.

"but someone has to defend and seek to preserve the English and their heritage."

Defend it from what? This is exactly the kind of thing I mean...

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 06:32 PM

"I think Countess Richard,is probably right."

I'm sorry but you are wrong. The cep is one of the groups attending. Please consider this article by them ( http://thecep.org.uk/news/ViewItem.asp?Entry=1485 ), in particular the issue entitled "Civic Nationalism . English Identity . Multiculturalism".

I quote:

"An English parliament would create an English franchise resulting in every individual in England, regardless of ethnic or religious identity, becoming a 'stakeholder' in England. This would be the single greatest rebuttal to those who delimit the boundaries and scope of Englishness and what it means to be English "

The march has very specific goals. I think some people see what they want to see but disregard the rest.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 02:58 PM

Thanks Dick - you are quite right (not wing of course!) I just don't understand why wanting to celebrate anything English is automaticaly considered 'right wing'. I really hate in when a word, thought or idea is changed so much that it no longer has any vestige of the original concept left.

I must go now though. I am going to have a gay time with my queer friends in the pub...


:D

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 02:40 PM

Oh, and before I fuck off myself out of this morass of misunderstanding about the nature of fascism, I must ask this danensis person just what s/he imagines is the provenance of the incredible diversity of music played in our islands (or even just in England). Mazurkas, waltzes, polskas, bourrées, gigues, polkas all have 'Made in Birmingham' stamped on them, do they? And melodeons, violins, bouzoukis and djembes were all made there too?
I expect The Freedom Association would ban them all.

That what you want?

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 02:31 PM

since there is a link to the Freedom Association.I think Countess Richard,is probably right.
The English do have a right to their own heritage,and to their own parliament.,and to their own anthem[instead of god save the Queen]. I would suggest the world turned upside down,by Leon Rosselson.
but there are certain phrases that make me suspicious of far right involvement[ I dont think Dave Polshaw is of that political leaning].

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 02:27 PM

Blimey, so I did.
Though I'm NOT a 'contessa'.
Child #68, mate.
Now, fuck off all you fascists . . .

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: danensis
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 02:26 PM

I realise that getting a thread back on track goes rather against the spirit of this place, but I'm interested to know why the BBC spends so much money broadcasting music by French, Italian, German and other nationals, and so little by English (and indeed Welsh, Scottish or Irish) composers.

As for indepenence for England, I think we should stop sending electricity generated with Yorkshire coal, down to the soft south-east.

And if nuclear power stations are so safe, why don't they build one near to London where most of the electricity is consumed?

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,John
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 02:22 PM

Contessa, you forgot to add 'fuck off'.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 02:12 PM

No, no, no, not a 'contessa'. Absolutely nothing Italian about Child #68. But why waste breath/finger power on explaining Young Hunting? Look it up yourself.
This thread began with someone posting details of a march organised by extremely dubious right-wing sources which I would have liked to see removed on the grounds of decency.
Everyone who has looked at the links is now aware of the disgusting Freedom Association/Tebbit connections.
'No platform for racists and fascists', remember that from the 70s?
Those who haven't given the site more than a cursory glance appear afflicted with a literary deficiency which equates the appearance of the word 'fascist' leaping from the page as a reference to them.
This may, of course, be a case of 'if the cap fits' . . . who knows?
So, no, it is not 'only one vote against this particular march'.
Anyone concerned for the diversity of our society and indeed of 'English' music is opposed to this sort of threat to it and other civil liberties, and many have said so here.
Not only is the post from 'JohnB' above lamentably inaccurate but it gives rise to serious concern about just where he is coming from.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 02:02 PM

countess:
re: "Whether an indeterminately defined ethnic grouping occupying a specific geographical space should or should not have self-determination in the guise of its own parliament has no bearing whatsoever (unless someone writes a song about it) on the musics played by its citizens.
"
I agree. My point about an english parliament is that it is for all the people in england, whatever their race or ethnic grouping.

"Music and musicians travel, co-operate and share, uniting peoples and cultures."
I certainly hope so. Though it depends on what the subject matter is and how it is performed. I remember reading about British Council representatives in Armenia causing offence by the staging of a dance that had a performer dancing on the Armenian flag! The Armenians were not very happy though apparently no offence was intended by the British. Though why they didn't see that one coming i don't know.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Tam
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 01:41 PM

Jo, is there any way you can curb that foul mouthed contess richards?
I happened to look at another thread 'Roots' and she uses the F word quite gratuitously.
Poor show, I think.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: JohnB
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 12:26 PM

Since I posted yesterday, there have been 26 more postings on this thread, 12 of them by the contessa. Yes the same one who didn't want the thread to start with, I don't have time to count the remaining posts.
Anyhow, I never said I was Canadian, I moved to Canada from England in 1977. I don't have a lot to contribute to this thread, as I have not specifically kept up with UK politics.
I shake my head that living in Canada, I appear to have far more rights and freedom to play and sing English music in Pubs or Morris Dance on the streets than the English have in England. That is based somewhat on what I have read on different Mudcat threads.
If this is an acceptable state of affairs, it bodes very sadly for anyone who considers themselves to be Englishand can't do anything about it without being labelled a fascist.
Sorry I won't have time to post anything again until tomorrow, I was busy doing sound at a concert last night and have concerts myself tonight and tomorrow, we have to wark harder to maintain our Englishness in the Colonies.
Having read all the posts, I think there has been only one vote against this particular march. The one to cancel the thread to start with, does this smack of facism? or is it something worse?
JohnB

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 10:42 AM

Wordy, who called you a fascist?
Unless you are something to do with the motley bunch of far-right loonies organising this march, you are, as far as I know, not one.
If you like Roots just go ahead and listen. I've heard it a million times over the past year or so (is it more or does it just seem like it?) After the first demo play which was dire, it got marginally better though not much.
It's a song, that's all.
As Ms Tabor said, just don't ask me to listen . . .
A song alone can achieve nothing, and there are many better ones.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 10:32 AM

Countess, I really object to being called a fascist for feeling that the English are getting a raw deal due to the devolution this govt has inititated.
Yes, I know the BNP and their ilk would love to get hold of the music as did Hitler's mob, however, just because they exist does not mean I have to change my opinion as to the need for the English to establish a seperate identity as the Scots and Welsh are doing.
I never wanted the Union to break up, but the break up is happening beyond a shadow of a doubt and we English must address the issue and fight our own corner.
If our music can help in this then that's all to the good.
p.s. I like the lyrics of "Roots"
Wordy. Woody Guthrie and Phil Ochs fan

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 09:54 AM

Ah yes, well I suppose I ought to have written 'the (imposed) British Crown'. Apologies,
This was not, at the time of the flight of Charles Edward Stuart from Culloden, the view of Flora MacDonald who thought he was the legitimate heir (though I'm sure she swiftly changed her mind about he 'who ran like a rabbit through the glen leaving better folk than him to be butchered'). There are those in Scotland who still drink a silent toast to him over the water by passing their wine glass over a glass of water.

All I know about Scottish history comes from June Tabor who, when a history student, recommended the John Prebble trilogy. If I have anything else wrong, blame her.

Do Westminster and the Crown belong to England? Well, that is where they are situated. As is the Stone of Scone I think once more unless some thieving Scots have nicked it yet again. I don't keep up cos it's not actually the important issue, is it?

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Sam
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 09:37 AM

But countess richards, there was no English crown. As far as I know from history the crowns of Scotland and England were united in 1603 and at the time of Flora MacDonald there was a Great Britain, parliament and crown. You appear to be very ill informed of your own history so maybe the English need a parliament of their own to prevent people like you thinking Westminster and the Crown belongs to England. Very sad.
PS My mother is a MacDonald so it appears I know a bit more than you do, even although I was born and bred in the USA.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 08:56 AM

Uncle Sam, my argument has flown nowhere.
It is quite simply that:
(a) this music forum is no place to advertise the activities of a bunch of looney fascists and
(b) attempts at hijacking English music by the far right are despicable.

Flora MacDonald's politics don't come into it. After rescuing the Young Pretender and dumping him on Skye, the Crown forced her into exile. Yet her husband was compelled, ironically, to fight for the English Crown in the Americas.

Whether or not the English have a Parliament is a hareng saur. A Parliament House doth not a democracy make. It is who is elected to it and how they legislate. Spare us from Norman Tebbit and his ilk.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Sam
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 08:39 AM

Ma'am, I'm a Democrat and I also agree with Tom Paine but your arguments are flying all over the place. What's Flora MacDonald's politics got to do with the English wanting a Parliament?

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 07:10 AM

Why am I being accused of wanting to sing the praises of thieving selfish hypocrites or whetever the term was, Jack. I do prefer to use first names than surnames by the way - so much frinedlier don't you think? Anyway, why do automaticaly assume that because I have a modicum, and that is all it is, of national pride that I want to praise anything other than the good things about England. Or do you really believe that ALL the English are thieving selfish hypocrites?

If I remember correctly one of the aspects of facism, so often quoted here, is the firm belief that one is in someway superior to everyone else. I don't think any of the arguments for the 'justice for England' campaign or those supporting the SoH song have shown any such trait. I do not want anything more than the rest of the union gets. I do not want to be thought of in any way superior to anyone. But then again I don't think it right to be treated as an inferior either. Do you?

Mr Fox - "Not ANOTHER attempt by the far right to hijack English folk music." Yes, you are quite right. It isn't.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 05:40 AM

I meant to type: HEARD of him?
(Joe McCarthy, that is).
These fascists make my hands shake so.

Ah, Guest Sam, I see who you are:

We set up a free nation and are your main ally in the Western world

You're George Bush, aren't you?

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 05:25 AM

I was, as always, on the side of Tom Paine.
As an almost total diversion, the husband of Flora MacDonald, exiled to the Carolinas, fought on the Royalist side. Ironic, innit?
btw Guest Sam (hey, you're not THE Sam in Canada, are you?), do you actually KNOW about the persecution and injustice both SeegEr and Guthrie faced and opposed in the 'Land Of The Free'?
When I cited 'recent cultural experiences' I actually meant Senator McCarthy, Hear of him?

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,Sam
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 05:11 AM

And I guess when we fought King Georg's troops over the battle of Independence from Britain you, countess richard, would have called us a bunch of murdering fascists, disloyal to the Mother Country? We set up a free nation and are your main ally in the Western world. That's why Pete Seegar and Woody Guthrie can sing about the Land of the Free and be proud of their independence.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Apr 07 - 04:59 AM

DIFFICULT

Difficult?
Good grief, I haven't even started.
Freedom of speech is one thing, and informed discussion of the roots and origins of fascism is important, and an understanding of its etymology would result not least in spelling it correctly.
Providing a platform for racists and fascists, and the resulting injustice, inequality and oppression, is quite something else and is always wrong and will always be opposed.
This is why, in my view, such a vile ad has no place in a music forum.
In common with Woody Guthrie, I'd have my guitar inscribed with 'This machine kills fascists' if I didn't fear it would fall apart.
Whether an indeterminately defined ethnic grouping occupying a specific geographical space should or should not have self-determination in the guise of its own parliament has no bearing whatsoever (unless someone writes a song about it) on the musics played by its citizens.
Music and musicians travel, co-operate and share, uniting peoples and cultures.
And this is the very antithesis of what such a collection of loony far-right tossers want.
Trad music belongs to those who play it with whoever they want and wherever they are, not to those who aspire to a restrictive, coercive state which says 'you will be this colour, live in this way and do what we want'.
I prefer to stay free to play (and think and say) whatever I damn well like (thank you Pete Seeger).
I somehow think I'll be getting rather more universal support over this from US members with their recent cultural experiences than from woolly-minded apologists here in the UK (or should I say, England) . . .

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: GUEST,heed
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 06:19 PM

Well, I posted he thread to cover two themes. One the aspect of the rise of the contemporary english protest movement and it's manifestation in the justice for english march, and secondly whether this movement has any expression in contemporary music, whether you agree with it or not. I made it clear at the start that it was about those two themes, and admitted that it may be a litle cheeky to combine the two. I should have put them in separate threads and for that i am sorry.

The issue of the the expression of english identity is not going to go away. If any thing it will only get louder. I believe that on the whole the issues that are raised by the justice for england march are fair and just. The suggestion that it is related to facism is utterly rubbish. Some people on this thread have used the concept of facism so as to cheapen it's actual meaning. This is counter - productive in my opinion as it blinds us to the real dangers of facism, and denys people from expresing moderate opionions for fear of being branded a fascist.

I have some sympathy with people who want to guard against folk music being used by some political groups. There is a danger that it can be a powerful tool for the far right and this needs to be challenged. Although i find countess quite dificult, i think he/she is right in warning against it. I only wish he/she would open his/her mind a bit more to the fact that folk music can and has been a legitimate expression for many other political groups or indviduals whether you agree with them or not.

I though the coments by jim maclean was fair, and speaking as an englishman i think that it shows that we can be good neighbours, rather that surly roommates. This is th future of our countries in my opinion. But i may be wrong. i often am.

I hope i haven't caused too much offence with the contents of my post and I am sorry for breaking any conventions for the use of the mudcat forum.

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 05:10 PM

Countess Richard:
                Our host has voiced support for freedom of speech, on several occasions. That being said, you have voiced your concerns and am sure that Mudcat has reviewed this thread. Ultimately, they will decide or have already done so.
I'll not make any friends with my politics here nor am I too interested in airing them.
Others have tripped on this thread and finding themselves in unfamiliar territory, have been harshly treated by those who love a good scrap.
Rather than make the same mistake, I'll go and practice MUSIC.
I'm really, really gone!
Jim

Subject: RE: Justice For England, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:53 PM

The thread is relevant to trad music only in that this 'campaign' is yet another far-right attempt to hijack it.
Which is precisely why I asked in #2 for it to be closed.
The only 'long-winded submission' is someone taking the liberty of yet another reposting of the tedious Roots, which I have to agree has little relevance to f*lk music'.
I don't however agree that the thread should be in BS.
I think the original vile advert should have been thrown off in the same way as any other fascist shit.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:37 PM

I have just taken on the distasteful task of reading through this whole thread. Admittedly, I scanned through mos of the "Long-Winded" submissions & can find no relevance to folk music what-so-ever!
I have little use for the BS threads and this is where this one belongs.
Please tell me; What exactly am I learning about Folk Music, here?

As for the title? A blatant abuse of our trust. Just like the telemarketers, you lost my support the instant that you misrepresented yourself.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:29 PM

No, Mick I'm not seeking to ban any songs. There are after all many examples, particularly in Ireland, which belong to what you might wish to call opposing traditions. Star Of The County Down and Londonderry Air/Danny Boy spring instantly to mind. And turning to the Balkans, good grief, who would be so foolish as to try and sort out the tunes geographically and politically? And I've already said (somewhere or other) what a jolly good tune the Horst Wessel-Lied is. (And several moments of Wagner if you forget about the dreadful quarters of an hour).

My point is what you correctly state: 'disdain for the far-right folk who attempt to hijack trad music'. I haven't said a word about whether or not England should have a separate parliament. I could, but not here in a music forum.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Big Mick
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:09 PM

So then your opinion is you wouldn't be opposed to banning songs of the Orange Order that are built on older trad tunes? Or would you prefer to ban Irish rebel songs built on older trad songs?

Actually, countess richard, I admire your disdain for the far right folks that attempt to hijack the trad music for their xenophobic purposes. The neo nazi bigots tried and continue to try, to do that with "Celtic" music. But it appears to me that you want to throw the baby out with the bath water. It seems to me to be admirable to want to retain and revive ones heritage. It seems to me that GB needs to come to grips with its future. If the Scots have their own parliament, why not the English? I admit to being a Yank and not intimately familiar with the issues, but that is what it appears to me. Seems to me that the idea of a Confederation is a sound one. I stand prepared to hear the thoughts of my friends from the other side of the pond on the issue. I imagine it will continue to be an interesting thread.

As to the song, it expresses a point of view. It does it in a catchy way, and is enjoyable to listen to. Despite the fact that xenophobes are trying to hijack it, it isn't of itself, a song that appears to project that point of view.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 04:02 PM

From Guest, Guest:

"some Canadian......keep out of it....don't talk about (insert appropriate topic here)

sounds xenophobic to me, "Countess"

Not at all.
Do keep up AND READ THE THREAD
The person (JohnB) said he had nothing to contribute.

This is the problem with 'Guests' who barge in, knowing nowt and with fuck all to contribute.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 03:54 PM

What 'admirable objectives' do you have in mind, Richard?

Jim McLean, I am not (obviously) objecting to folk song being political, but that those with evil, far-right aspirations should attempt to hijack it. I fail to see how I could be more clear.

Subject: RE: JusticeForEngland, English protest songs
From: Jim Lad
Date: 27 Apr 07 - 03:50 PM

"Justice for England" ! ? ?
You're kidding, right?
Be careful, what you wish for!