playing for dancing

Subject: playing for dancing
From: stevethesqueeze
Date: 03 May 07 - 04:41 AM

Here is your chance to influence a course we are planning for the autumn here in South Wales.

We will be starting a course for musicians who want to learn how best to play traditional british country dance music in a dance band setting for dancers. The musicians will be beginers or intermediate students who can play at a reasonable level.

What advice would you give to musicians who want to learn how to do this?

Any advice or suggestions will be considered very seriously.

stevethesqueeze

Subject: RE: playing for dancing
From: Mo the caller
Date: 03 May 07 - 05:08 AM

All the obvious stuff about keeping the rythm steady (unless deliberately speeding up), no jerky changes in a medley and letting the dancers know when to start.

But also, if you are a band playing ONS (one night stands) at weddings etc. remember that you are THE ENTERTAINMENT, whether or not people want to get up and dance. So be prepared to play a tune between dances, if the caller asks, without a ten minute discussion ("aren't you going to call a dance? what shall we do then?)

It helps to have a leader who can decide which set of tunes best matches what the caller wants, and can tell the others the page number (or tunes/keys I suppose) and be ready to play the tune through if the dancers are slow to get up - much better than silence, and the callers nagging voice - gives the idea that something is happening.

Subject: RE: playing for dancing
From: Mitch the Bass
Date: 03 May 07 - 05:40 AM

Steve,

There are a number of facets to this.
e.g.
Setting the speed (and sticking to it), getting the rhythm right for each type of dance, having sufficient and appropriate repertoire, having specific tunes that the caller may require, having the skills to play English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, American, French tunes as required or specialising in a particular genre - ECeilidh, Contra etc., Playing together as a group, starting and finishing sets, getting the road map right (numbers of As and Bs and tune sequences)being practiced and professional (no twiddling or learning the tune during the walk through), using sound sytems effectively, giving value for money, specific instrument techniques - staccato playing for accordions, appropriate ornamentation for fiddlers.

There are specific skills and expectations when playing for weddings, children, ceilidhs (English, Irish or Scottish), Irish set dances, formal Scottish dances, contra (do you know how to start with 4 potatoes?), period English dances etc.

I'm teaching soon at the Stafford Music Day which is an annual event for musicians, mostly aimed at playing for dancing. The workshops this year include -

Accordion Technique
Playing for Contra dances
Tunes for the inexperienced musician
Playing in a band
Melodic variations and accompaniments
Tunes from the Village Music Project
Inspiring the Dancers!
Ragtime
Session tunes
Apted tunes
Lyrical Tunes


We usually get about 50 people for the day and include an exercise putting together a set for a dance in small groups in addition to the specific workshops.

PM me if you want to discuss.

Howard Mitchell
http://www.hgmitchell.co.uk

Subject: RE: playing for dancing
From: Fidjit
Date: 03 May 07 - 06:16 AM

Howards the man, Steve.
He helped me find a tune for a dance.
We ended up breaking up an, AA-BB to an, A-BB to suit.

It works really well.

Chas

Subject: RE: playing for dancing
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 May 07 - 06:22 AM

firstly watch the dancers.
secondly practise at home with a metronome.
the following approximate speeds116 for Jigs.208 Reels210[104-105]IRISH Polkas142,slides144, solo hornpipes and strip the willow146 -148.fast hornpipes for irish sets160.single jigs 104.st patricks day set dance 96.

Subject: RE: playing for dancing
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 May 07 - 06:27 AM

slipjigs 112.
remember it may be necessary to change your speed,slow down ,if the dancers are struggling,that is why watching the dancers is so important.

Subject: RE: playing for dancing
From: stevethesqueeze
Date: 03 May 07 - 08:03 AM

many thanks my friends.

keep all the tips, hints and suggestions flowing

stevethesquueze

Subject: RE: playing for dancing
From: Wolfhound person
Date: 03 May 07 - 08:23 AM

Bring in some other experienced musicians, and spend the first two sessions making your participants dance a variety of rhythms so they know what they're aiming for.

Paws

Subject: RE: playing for dancing
From: Splott Man
Date: 03 May 07 - 08:29 AM

Mudcatter Mr Red has a comprehensive website here with lots of useful stuff for dancing.

He's in Gloucestershire and often makes it down to the Heath Ceilidh in Cardiff.

Should be a good contact for you.

Mike Greenwood (Penarth) is both a player and a dancer, so he might be of use too.

Good luck

Splott Man

Subject: RE: playing for dancing
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 03 May 07 - 09:05 AM

That was a very good reply, Howard, having done a bit of everything dance-wise that you mentioned plus a bit of Balkan & Scandinian for good measure.

'Captain Birdseye' I think hits the nail on the head too, when he mentions musicians watching the dancers' feet, very important!

Subject: RE: playing for dancing
From: leeneia
Date: 03 May 07 - 09:17 AM

For me, the hard part is how fast dance music goes. I think that for your students, "get it up to speed" will not be a metaphor.

Subject: RE: playing for dancing
From: Bernard
Date: 03 May 07 - 09:28 AM

It's important to understand what is meant by '32 bar jigs', '48 bar reels', etc., and why it is significant!

Whilst there are some 48 bar tunes (usually AA BB CC), any 32 bar can be adapted either by AB AB AB (tedious!), or AA BB AB (challenging!).

Watching the dancers' feet is paramount!

When playing for beginners/intermediates, a good solid 'tick tock' accompaniment is far more useful than clever tricks. Playing for an audience is very different from playing for dancers.

Bass players and drummers are the worst culprits...! ;o)

Whilst I'm up here on my high horse, the 'modern trend' for playing a tune until the band gets fed up then playing another tune is not very helpful to the dancers - or the caller. Yes, I know playing one tune is often appropriate for Morris (I'm a Morris musician, too), but 'social dancing' is different.

Playing one tune for the first set of figures, and a different tune for the second time through, reverting to the first tune for the third time (etc.) takes more thinking, but is far more structured. I played in a dance band from the early 1970s until around 1990, and that was what we usually did - unless a specific dance had different requirements. Unfortunately, the tendency these days is to dance despite  the music, rather than be guided by it. All too often the band is back to the start of the tune but the dancers haven't completed the set of figures, so everything is out of sync...

We used to start and end on a chord, too (Scottish dancing style) - all too often the 'introduction' is so vague that not even the caller knows when the dance has started.

Nowadays I only play occasionally when a band needs a temporary musician (I play accordion, guitar or bass as required).

Subject: RE: playing for dancing
From: concertina ceol
Date: 03 May 07 - 12:29 PM

I agree with wolfman. Get the musicians to dance to a variety of rythms and dances first with some experienced musicians providing the music.

Subject: RE: playing for dancing
From: stevethesqueeze
Date: 08 May 07 - 03:49 AM

thank you everyone for your tips and hints on how to play for dancing. i assure they will all be used. Don't hesitate to send me any ideas or pm me if you would prefer. stevethesqueeze

Subject: RE: playing for dancing
From: treewind
Date: 08 May 07 - 10:29 AM

"the 'modern trend' for playing a tune until the band gets fed up then playing another tune is not very helpful to the dancers - or the caller. Yes, I know playing one tune is often appropriate for Morris ... but 'social dancing' is different."

For an alternative view, see Medley Mania (John Kirkpatrick). Probably where this "modern trend" came from.
We rarely use more than two tunes for a dance.

"all too often the 'introduction' is so vague that not even the caller knows when the dance has started."
The remedy for that is to fix the introduction. By definition a good intro should not have that effect - the band (or leader) isn't playing it right.

Anahata

Subject: RE: playing for dancing
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 08 May 07 - 12:00 PM

Be aware that Captain Birdseye's tempos are appropriate for some sorts of dancing (stepdancing, in particular?) but not all.

Watch and/or understand the dance to know where extra emphasis might be appropriate.

I'll chime in again on this one, because not enough musicians take it to heart: dance! -- obviously, it relates back to that "understand the dance" concept; also, if you've danced a lot, then you should be able to feel the appropriate tempo and not require it be given you, or need to know how many bpm that is.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: playing for dancing
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 May 07 - 12:26 PM

I'm not a fiddler so it amazes me that good dance fiddlers have the ability to switch tunes seamlessly. The fiddler knows beforehand that the tunes 'go together', and knows also that if the effort to switch fails (been known to happen!) he or she can fall back into the previous tune. But it is a real skill.

As a guitar player I learned to keep the rhythm going even when I don't yet know the chords that will be required in the new tune. The dancers respond to the rhythm and as long as the beat keeps going there is no problem.

But I'm still amazed at the fidder's skill; who says the brain can't think of two things at the same time!

Subject: RE: playing for dancing
From: GUEST,Sharon G
Date: 08 May 07 - 08:13 PM

Steve, I understand your question to be about group dancing, (not something like solo step dancing). Here are a few thoughts:

I play regularly for contra dancing and Irish ceili and step dancing, have a little experience with Scottish country dancing and Irish set dancing, and just a passing acquaintence with English country dancing....

Having a regular rhythm is more important than getting in every little note for those kinds of dancing. So newer players should simplify tunes rather than try to ornament them or play every little intricate passage. Playing at a regular, consistent tempo is equally important.   If the dance is "called" then the caller can always give cues to speed up or slow down the tempo if necessary. Listen to other players to hear what gives lift to the dancers. Accompaniment instruments should emphasize the downbeat, help give emphasis to moves like a balance and swing, etc.

Knowing what kind of tune is required for the dance is very helpful.    For contra dancing reels or jigs are usually all that apply, but for some dances a jig might work better than a reel, or vice versa. Ceili dancing usually specifies a jig or reel, and a few dances require a specific tune.

For Scottish dancing, the requirements are stricter, and often particular sets of tunes are needed, and the tunes are switched in a certain order (8 x 32 reel, for example, means play reels 8x through, but they are often played in a special sequence- four reels played 12342341 or three reels 12312321.   Sometimes the dance specifies a particular tune.

I'm sure there are more experienced musicians when it comes to English Country Dancing, but I think that the dances often go with a specific tune.

Tempos- for contra and ceili dancing are usually around 116-120 bpm, but it varies, and again, the caller is a good source of input if the music is too slow or too fast.

Learning how to put together medleys is another topic. For contra dancing, having a key change in the set often energizes dancers.   There are no hard and fast rules for medleys, but if there are instruments that need to move capos or retune, that affectst the medley. Matching tunes to their relative minors (G- Em, D-Bm etc) works well, as does changing in fifths- like moving from G to D to A adds energy too.   These rules probably work for ceili or set dancing as well.

Less experienced musicians benefit greatly from sitting in with experienced dance musicians. It is very helpful to have 1 or 2 core players to provide guidance and communicate with the caller or dance organizer, then offer leadership to select tunes, set tempos, etc.

Learn to watch the dancers. Some tunes don't work with some dances- the emphasis falls in the wrong place for the figures.

I might have more ideas but that's a start
Sharon

Subject: RE: playing for dancing
From: Mitch the Bass
Date: 09 May 07 - 06:14 AM

Sharon G said "I'm sure there are more experienced musicians when it comes to English Country Dancing, but I think that the dances often go with a specific tune."

There's a hidden divide here between usage of the term English Country Dancing in England and in the USA.

In the US it means almost exclusively dances published in the 17th and 18th century and modern dances in the same style. In England we might call these Playford Dances, acknowledging that this includes dances from other publishers such as Thompson and Kynaston and similar modern dances.

In England, English Country Dance encompasses traditional dance and period dance and also includes contra and some square dances and is not averse to including some European dances which other might term "International Folk Dance". There might be a nodding acknowledgement in the States of Traditional dances or Village dances, particularly those involving steps but this is rare.

The point being that "Playford Dances" have their own tune 95% of the time but traditional and village dances, which form the staple for English Ceilidhs and barn dances are mostly done to polkas, jigs, reeels, waltzes etc. with some exceptions.

In England we are often asked to provide specific tunes for some dances and "some jigs and reels" of our own choice.

I am heartened to be playing for a dance workshop at Chippenham entitled "Chippenham Step This Way" which includes traditional (or similar) dances Pins and Needles, Royal Albert, Margaret's Waltz, Double Lead Through, Corn Rigs, Rifleman, Morpeth Rant, Kenwyn Hornpipe, Dorset Four–Hand Reel, Winster Galop and Wiltshire Tempest. Dances which seem to have lost favour over the last few years.

Mitch

Subject: RE: playing for dancing
From: GUEST,doc.tom
Date: 09 May 07 - 07:05 AM

First, get the musicians to learn to dance!
Get them, to understand that playing for a dance is not just keeping a steady rhythm - one experiment I've used in workshops before(but you need dancers as well as learning musicians)is to use one tune for three of four different dances - and get them to play FOR THE DANCE i.e. for the figures: - if they don't get the differences, they shouldn't be pretending to play for dancing - they're just beoing musicians that some people dance to.
If you're going to change tune during a dance, make sure that the change 'lifts' the dance and the dancers - this can be done through tempo, key, or just tune.