BS: Ft. Dix plot

Subject: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 07 - 10:00 AM

'Islamic radicals' arrested in plot to kill Fort Dix soldiers
POSTED: 9:57 a.m. EDT, May 8, 2007

Story Highlights• NEW: Those arrested are "Islamic radicals," U.S. Attorney's Office says
• News conference scheduled for 2:30 p.m. ET
• Sources say six men were planning to shoot soldiers at Army base
• Informant played key role in investigation, sources say

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Six "Islamic radicals" involved in a plot to kill U.S. soldiers at Fort Dix in New Jersey were arrested Monday night, the U.S. Attorney's Office in New Jersey said Tuesday.

One of the suspects was born in Jordan, another in Turkey, the U.S. Attorney's Office said. The rest are believed to be Yugoslavian, "either U.S. citizens or living illegally in the United States," the office said in a statement.

"Their alleged intention was to conduct an armed assault on the army base and to kill as many soldiers as possible," according to the statement.

The six are expected to appear in U.S. District Court in Camden on Tuesday afternoon, the U.S. Attorney's Office said in a statement.

The district attorney scheduled a news conference at 2:30 p.m. ET to discuss the case.

The men were planning to use automatic weapons to shoot soldiers at the Army post, according to a federal law enforcement source and a senior government source.

The men, some of whom were related to each other, had been doing surveillance and planning "for a while," and they trained in the Poconos Mountains in northeastern Pennsylvania, according to the federal law enforcement source.

They played paintball and test-fired weapons, a law enforcement source said.

New Jersey state troopers and the FBI were involved in investigating and arresting the suspects. An informant played a key role in the investigation, the sources said.

One of the sources said there is a video and an audiotape of the planning.

The Newark Star-Ledger reported on its Web site that the men took a videotape of their practice sessions to a store to have it burned to a DVD, and that a store employee contacted the FBI because of the video's contents.

Sources told the Star-Ledger the men were lured to a meeting with an FBI informant posing as an arms dealer. The newspaper's sources requested anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the case.

While authorities are glad to have arrested them, the individuals are "hardly hard core terrorists," one law enforcement source said.

Another source said that while the allegations are "troubling," they are "not the type that made the hair on the back of your neck stand up."

Fort Dix is an Army installation that trains and mobilizes reserves, National Guard and active soldiers going to war.

It was used in 1999 to house ethnic Albanian refugees from Kosovo, according to the Defense Department Web site.

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Mickey191
Date: 08 May 07 - 11:31 AM

Thank Heavens they were unable to carry out the plan. Last night's news showed children being "entertained" by a Mickey Mouse like character who is preaching murder & mayhem to these 7 & 8 year old kids. The stated aim: "kill Americans."

The worst is yet to come!

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 May 07 - 11:51 AM

It's not as easy as some think to obtain fully automatic weapons in the US. Sure, it can be done, but you can't just walk into your local gun store and say, "Hey, gimme a coupla Uzis, an HK MP5, and a couple of M60s, would ya?" Licensed dealers, even those who might be licensed to sell such things, will look at you askance and, if they think you're serious, call the cops.

However, I do expect attacks of this sort using available weapons. The shooter at VT, the shooter at Trolley Square, the Columbine shooters, were all just as much terrorists as a guy in Bagdad with a truck bomb.

From what I've read of THESE particular guys, well, they weren't very bright.

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 May 07 - 10:05 PM

Do we believe it in the first place? *sigh* hate to be so cynical, but by now...

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Bobert
Date: 08 May 07 - 10:20 PM

Another bunch of "Three Stooges" are caught by the DHS... Hooray...

(Yawn...)

These are the same kinda guys who would have been caught when I was in high school some 40 years ago...

Give me a break....

Billion$$$$ and billions$$$$ of tax dollars going into interuptin' terrorist plots and this is as good as it gets at stopping terrorist attacks in the US???

Give this ol' hillbilly a break... Even bin Laden would be embarassed to have these stooges claim to be part of his gang...

What a joke...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: GUEST,doubtful
Date: 08 May 07 - 10:27 PM

This situation reminds me of one a year ago, when the FBI "busted" some "al Qeada" in Florida:

Even as Justice Department officials trumpeted the arrests of seven Florida men accused of planning to wage a 'full ground war against the United States,' they acknowledged the group did not have the means to carry out the plan," reports Knight Ridder. "The Justice Department unveiled the arrests with an orchestrated series of news conferences in two cities, but the severity of the charges compared with the seemingly amateurish nature of the group raised concerns among civil libertarians," who noted that the group had "no weapons, no explosives" and yet the government considers the arrests and case a "major announcement."

If not for the "confidential government informant" inserted in their midst, who convinced them to pledge allegiance to the cartoonish "al-Qaeda," there would be no case.

After "sweeps of various locations in Miami, government agents found no explosives or weapons. Investigators also did not document any direct links to al-Qaeda." But this complete lack of evidence did not stop the FBI. "This group was more aspirational than operational," said John Pistole, the FBI's deputy director. In other words, merely thinking about "al-Qaeda," even if such a thought is planted by an agent provocateur, is illegal, a crime against the state....

http://www.uruknet.info/?colonna=m&p=24226

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 May 07 - 10:48 PM

History of Fort Dix here: http://www.dix.army.mil/history/history.htm
Fort Dix

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 May 07 - 10:50 PM

Interestingly, Tom Paxton did Basic Training at good ol' Ft. Dix.

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Donuel
Date: 08 May 07 - 11:16 PM

Why did the FBI give them their initial non automatic weapons?

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Peace
Date: 08 May 07 - 11:32 PM

More to the point, why not let some folks at Ft Dix know they were coming and let nature take its course? (I am aware that SWAT snipers are awfully close to committing murder when they take their shots. But the old adage has some truth to it: If you are going to grab a tiger by the balls you'd better have a plan in place to deal with its claws.)

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Donuel
Date: 08 May 07 - 11:38 PM

At least these patsy's had their own boots, unlike the Florida crew the FBI supplied money to and busted in a reverse sting.

How hard is it to find ignorant haters nowadays and get them excited?

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Peace
Date: 09 May 07 - 12:23 AM

By the looks of it, not too, Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Peace
Date: 09 May 07 - 12:26 AM

The thing I have difficulty with is the whole game that gets played. Next there will be a very expensive trial, jail terms and eventual release for these folks. So the American people will pay millions, money that could be better invested to help alleviate poverty. Sorry, but I have reached a point where I think, "Hey, fuck the bad guys!"

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 09 May 07 - 08:39 AM

Six guys are going to storm Fort Dix, is that right? Six guys. The scheme is so hare-brained that it's just another Bush administration ruse. "We caught another one! See how we're keeping you safe??" I mean, I would have let them carry out their plan because they would have died 2 seconds into it.

Just another lie. Why does anybody believe this administration anymore? Dub claims he's keeping the country safe and to prove it starts describing scenarios that never happened--like that LA debacle--or it's some scheme so poorly planned that it would never have worked even if they were allowed to carry it out. Then there was the liquid explosives lie that has forever changed airport security and there was never a shred of evidence produced that it was being planned much less carried out. It would be a joke were the whole thing not such a tragic travesty.

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 May 07 - 09:05 AM

Not to mention that attacking a military target is a legitimate act of war, not an illigitemate act of terrorism. But it would be, or would have been, the first act of war on US soil in, I don't know, how long - since the Civil War? The was or 1812?

I also put the attack on the USS Cole outside of the realm of terrorism, that was a sneak attack on a military target in foreign waters.

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Donuel
Date: 09 May 07 - 09:20 AM

The initial reports from the local police said that "these guys are far from being a clear and present danger"

yet with each retelling of these bearded bozo boys paintball training and attempt to buy real guns, they become the epitomy of jihad living RIGHT NEXT DOOR

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Donuel
Date: 09 May 07 - 09:26 AM

The FBI had TWO agents living with these guys for SIXTEEN MONTHS !

what more do you need to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Donuel
Date: 09 May 07 - 09:40 AM

the message here is

become a Hero informer like the video store clerk
Support they endless surge.
and be afraid

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 May 07 - 09:41 AM

The US was last invaded in WW2 -- and I don't mean attacked, I mean invaded by a foriegn army -- when the Japanese attacked and held (for a while) Attu and Kiska in the Aleutian Islands. The US mainland was also shelled by a Japanese submarine, and ballons were used to carry incendiaries from Japan to the Pacific Northwest (with the intent of setting forest fires but, other than a couple of civilian deaths, not much other results).

As for these yahoos -- six guys are going to attack a military installation? Apparently they were going to stand at the fence and shoot from there -- yessir, that's a plan alright....

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: robomatic
Date: 09 May 07 - 10:00 AM

I guess we'll just have to sit on our hands until another big civilian target gits blowed up. Then we'll have a ligitimit rite to be p. o.'d providin' all our PC ducks 're in a roe.

And if'n Mrrzy is suggestin' sneak attacks on military targits are okay, I got a list of 'em to set the navy and air farce agin'

Say g'bye t'yer grits ragamuffins!

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Peace
Date: 09 May 07 - 10:14 AM

They coulda done some serious damage to people's colour schemes. Imagine . . . and an attack on Martha Stewart's place with red, brown, pink and chartreuse paintballs. In the words of someone, "HOW GAUCHE!"

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Peace
Date: 09 May 07 - 10:16 AM

BTW, is chartreuse a member of the beige family?

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 May 07 - 12:17 PM

No, it's a sort of yellow-green. Kinda like the color you'd get mixing creme de menthe and pee.

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Greg B
Date: 09 May 07 - 01:22 PM

Mrrrzy I was wondering the same thing--- "how is this 'terrorism?'"

They apparently had multiple potential targets, all military
installations. Or is anybody who doesn't play by 'our rules'
a 'terrorist?'

Agreed, these guys were idiots of the highest degree. They
seemed to be somewhat principled idiots, I guess.

But sending it to a video store?

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 May 07 - 01:56 PM

There hasn't as yet been a trial, and no one has been convicted. It's a bit premature, taking everything that emerges from these unnamed sources as all that reliable. There've been plenty of instances over the last few years where widely published allegations have turned out to be total rubbish.

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 May 07 - 01:56 PM

Of course, many of the people who work on Ft. Dix are civilians, the guards on the gates are civilians, and the spouses and children of the military members that are stationed there (as opposed to those who are there for training) are civilians...but they all have a military connection so that makes them legitimate targets, right? I will admit that Bushy, by calling this entire fiasco a "War" rather than going after the perpetrators as the vicious criminals that they are, has opened wide this particular door.

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Greg B
Date: 09 May 07 - 02:38 PM

Yes, by the accepted rules of war civilians living and working on
military installations expose themselves to risks of war during the
time they are on site. Just as munitions factories which use civilian
labor are not exempt from aerial bombardment while engaged in
activities on a target which directly supports the war effort.

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 May 07 - 03:50 PM

282, you wrote

"Then there was the liquid explosives lie that has forever changed airport security and there was never a shred of evidence produced that it was being planned much less carried out. It would be a joke were the whole thing not such a tragic travesty."
This gang have been charged and are awaiting trial. That does not happen here now without very strong evidence.

Also
"Six guys are going to storm Fort Dix, is that right? Six guys. The scheme is so hare-brained that it's just another Bush administration ruse. "
I do not know Dix, but I was at Fort Knox about 10 years ago.
The post was not fenced and anyone could drive in and out. I was not aware of any live armed sentries. A regular site was sqauds of unarmed soldiers marching, running or training.
They would be easy pickings for a gunman who did not expect to survive.
I would dispach the gunmen each to an accomodation hut late at night. At Knox these were open and unguarded. Even with a semi automatic each man would wipe out most of the sleepers.

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: jacqui.c
Date: 09 May 07 - 04:05 PM

I just start wondering, whenever a news report like this surfaces, what sort of clampdown is going to be put in place this time.

Whether these incidents are manufactured or just used as an excuse it would not surprise me to hear that "Oh by the way, due to this problem we're going to....." It's a very easy way to restrict our freedom with very little protest.

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Donuel
Date: 09 May 07 - 04:39 PM

I guess we'll just have to sit on our hands until another big civilian target gits blowed up. Then we'll have a ligitimit rite to be p. o.'d providin' all our PC ducks 're in a roe.
quote robomatic


oooooooooooooooooo are you as reactionary as that sounds or are ya bein a parodymatic.


reporting these guys forever is like the color coded terror alerts.

Meanwhile the borders are just as they were 7 years ago.
The nuke plants have six guys with guns, snacks and TVs.
And our food supply is accidetly poisoned.

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 07 - 06:02 PM

Mrrzy: your post 5/09 around 9AM. Me thinks you think very strangely.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 May 07 - 06:58 PM

So, a jihadi can drive a truck bomb in and blow up the Ft. Dix Elementary School and it's a legitimate act of war? Sorry, but I'm out of here now.

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 09 May 07 - 07:23 PM

>>>282, you wrote

"Then there was the liquid explosives lie that has forever changed airport security and there was never a shred of evidence produced that it was being planned much less carried out. It would be a joke were the whole thing not such a tragic travesty."
This gang have been charged and are awaiting trial. That does not happen here now without very strong evidence.

Also
"Six guys are going to storm Fort Dix, is that right? Six guys. The scheme is so hare-brained that it's just another Bush administration ruse. "
I do not know Dix, but I was at Fort Knox about 10 years ago.
The post was not fenced and anyone could drive in and out. I was not aware of any live armed sentries. A regular site was sqauds of unarmed soldiers marching, running or training.
They would be easy pickings for a gunman who did not expect to survive.
I would dispach the gunmen each to an accomodation hut late at night. At Knox these were open and unguarded. Even with a semi automatic each man would wipe out most of the sleepers.<<<

Fort Dix is 31,000 acres and has a population of about 14,000 at any given time. At least that many more troops train there on weekends. It also functions as a major military prison. If you try to get on Fort Dix without proper authorization, you WILL be stopped.

Even with a depleted population due to deployments to Iraq, that's 31,000 acres for 6 guys to take control of. I really doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: fumblefingers
Date: 09 May 07 - 11:46 PM

Guest 282ra
"Even with a depleted population due to deployments to Iraq, that's 31,000 acres for 6 guys to take control of. I really doubt it."

The report I read said they intended to kill as many Americans as possible, not "take control" of the base.

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 07 - 11:32 AM

282RA and others suggest there is not really a serious Jihadist threat.
Who knows, but consider the British experience.
We have one gang awaiting trial for plotting to bring down transatlantic flghts with liquids, and another who tried to buy surface to air missiles.
Another gang is on trial for an attempted mutiple suicide bombing on our subway system (the detonators fired but mercifully the home made explosive failed).
We have just convicted another gang who had stored half a ton of fertiliser for mixing in to explosive.They were recorded discussing targets.

Would the Dix plot have succeeded?
Again,who knows?
This stuff from 6abc suggests that it had every chance.

"But there are numerous portions of the fort, including areas where soldiers train and gather for maneuvers, that are not protected by any barriers.

Main Street, the primary road through neighboring Cookstown, continues as a public road along the edge of the fort, accessible to anyone, and is regularly traveled by private cars and trucks.

On Tuesday, hours after the arrests and the plot were made public, at least two of the areas directly off the road were populated by dozens of soldiers conducting training exercises not more than 50 yards off the main road.

On Wednesday morning, a dozen soldiers ate breakfast under a wooden canopy in an area of the fort known as Bastogne Range, about 30 yards from a road that carries civilian traffic."

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Greg B
Date: 10 May 07 - 11:39 AM

Red herring, Art. It appears to me (using Mapquest and
satellite images) that in spite of its name the school
is outside the gates of the military installation. As is
the 'base housing' for families.

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 May 07 - 11:41 AM

I am sure that the plotters would have been careful to only direct their fire into the actual military instalation...

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 May 07 - 12:03 PM

Sorry, GregB, but both the school and the housing areas are within the post perimeter.

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: 282RA
Date: 10 May 07 - 02:41 PM

From what I read, these guys were plotting to "storm" Dix. Why plot to merely kill as many Americans as possible?   They might kill 5 or 10 that way but that's it. Not really worth it.

In the end, I do not believe there was a plot. Bush is a habitual liar. Anything to up his ratings.

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Greg B
Date: 10 May 07 - 02:57 PM

One wonders if it wasn't so much a 'kill wish' as a 'death wish.'

There seems to be a common thread amongst these suicide attack
loonies that nothing matters so much as to go out in a blaze
of glory for Allah.

Art--- look at where the school is. Doesn't seem to likely
to get hurt by any events at the main facility. I doubt
that it's inside the perimeter fence or the gates. Again,
red herring.

That said, kids from military families that live in 'base
housing' and go to nearby schools ARE more exposed to all
kinds of risks. From 'terror' to toxins. That's the choice
their parents have made for them, out of convenience or
economic necessity.

One of the disadvantages to war (among the many) are that
civilians end up in harm's way, both from accident and from
people who don't play by the 'rules.'

A bit more reluctance to make war would perhaps lessen
that risk.

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Peace
Date: 10 May 07 - 03:16 PM

Too, in many countries civilians elect the governments which on their behalf decare the wars in which so many die. There is then nothing sacrosanct about being a civilian. Maybe people should take a good hard look at who they elect.

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 May 07 - 05:01 PM

GregB, the school is on the main post, on Juliustown Road. It is inside the fence. It is 500 feet inside the gate.

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: dianavan
Date: 11 May 07 - 02:25 AM

entrapment

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Greg B
Date: 11 May 07 - 09:21 PM

Dumb place for a school. Reflects the American sense of
invincibility. Perhaps they'll re-think it and turn the
school into administrative offices, and move the school
further afield. Certainly New Jersey school kids are used
to a bit of a bus ride.

When I was a kid, growing up in a military town where my
grandfather and uncles were civilian employees, I remember
regularly just sort of wandering around Port Hueneme and
Point Mugu Naval Weapons Station as well as Oxnard AFB.

We'd just go to look at stuff. Mugu was where the first
guided missiles were developed. We'd go to Hueneme to look
at the ships (and wander around dockside). And watch the
airplanes at Oxnard (right next to the bunkers with the
nukes). My grandfather's little bumper sticker got us
freedom to wander all those facilities; he was a machinist
and shop-planner at Mugu.

Best thing was going to visit 'Tuffy' the famous Navy dolphin,
the one who was trained to find and call attention to mines
attached to ship hulls, along with a bunch of other missions
in harm's way. He was pretty famous back in the 60's.

Hueneme is still open as a shared port facility, mostly
commercial. Mugu is a shadow of its former self--- no more
R&D (it's where GPS came from). Oxnard is a municipal airport,
and has the biggest Commemorative (Confederate) Air Force
installation outside Texas.

I realize now, the place I grew up was a nuclear epicenter.

Not any more, but back in the day, we were probably on the
'top ten' of Soviet targets.

War is bad for children and other living things...

Subject: RE: BS: Ft. Dix plot
From: Peace
Date: 12 May 07 - 12:58 AM

The days of trying to protect civilians from harm are over. ABC warfare doesn't discriminate. They are all equal-opportunity killers. If we really want to protect our children, we can best do so by ending war as a means of conflict resolution/settlement.