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A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
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Subject: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: GUEST,Dave Date: 11 May 07 - 08:29 AM A plea to all you fiddle, accordion, whistle and flute players out there – please have pity on the humble singer-guitarists who attempt to pick up some of the crumbs of time you drop during your endless diddly-dee sessions at festivals around the country. A piece of advice too – the beauty of music often can be expressed perfectly on the basis of a "Less is More" philosophy. At the Moor and Coast festival at Whitby last weekend we witnessed the demolition of a number of beautiful songs by over-bearing metronomically-perfect playing by the sessionists, over the top (round, through and underneath) of the singers. The voice is THE LEAD INSTRUMENT FOLKS – listen to it, and if you wish to add something to it then please try to do it sympathetically (and at least in the same timing as the singer). Now we do understand that you are familiar with 99% of all the songs and tunes written since the 5th century, but there can be (or at least there would be, given chance) different interpretations of some of them, and a singer might even wish to vary the pace (God forbid) of one or two, just for the creative interesting hell of it. One other piece of advice – during your "Three Times in D; Six times in G; Thirty seven times in A" musical extravaganza, just take time to lift your heads long enough to see the number of jaws on the floor. Have a little sympathy for members of your audience – and maybe we won't get so many requests from them along the lines of "For F***'S sake – sing something – QUICK!!!" |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Ella who is Sooze Date: 11 May 07 - 08:35 AM Blimey! |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: GUEST,PMB Date: 11 May 07 - 08:41 AM Just vary the pace and phrasing a bit, leave unexpected pauses between phrases, and drop them off. Leave them looking like the insensitive charlies they can sometimes be. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Sttaw Legend Date: 11 May 07 - 08:42 AM "Less is More" I have been saying that for years. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: GUEST Date: 11 May 07 - 08:48 AM We call it "Musical Masturbation". |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Stu Date: 11 May 07 - 08:48 AM So everybody's got to stop playing and listen intently whilst you sing - why not just go to another session then? Mind you, I'm crap so my opinion's worth squat. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Richard Bridge Date: 11 May 07 - 08:49 AM You left out the worst offenders - banjo players, sometimes from Faversham. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: LesB Date: 11 May 07 - 08:49 AM Which is why, as a rule, musicians are in one pub & singers in another. (Which one i'm in depends on which hat i've got on). Cheers Les |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Richard Bridge Date: 11 May 07 - 08:49 AM And it applies to humpties as well as diddlies. We know Nellie the Elephant by now. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: skipy Date: 11 May 07 - 08:53 AM (Which one i'm in depends on which hat i've got on) Or in my case - dress! Skipy |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 11 May 07 - 08:56 AM "A plea to all you fiddle, accordion, whistle and flute players out there – please have pity on the humble singer-guitarists who attempt to pick up some of the crumbs of time you drop during your endless diddly-dee sessions at festivals around the country" Actually, even though I have one, haven't got around to learning the 'violin' yet - but I do play the other two, and have mucked about with flutes too. On behalf of all good players of the two instruments in particular (note how I cleverly have not automatically included myself!) and also 'good scrapers and puffers', let say to you that you have been overwhelmed by far too poor players of these instruments! Far too many bad drivers on the roads - just imagine what happens when that sort of mentality with cloth ears gets hold of an instrument! As my father told me when I was still single digits of age after I had been playing the piano for a couple of years and showed him just how fast and loud I could play - "Any inexperienced fool can easily play loud and fast - it takes sensitivity, training and talent, as well as much experience to be able to play slow and softly". The he picked up his violin and placed the bow on the string at the frog end and drew it gently and very slowly all the was to the tip and back - and produced a clear, resonant unwavering pure tone on an open string. You have experienced far too many non-musos, mate! :-) |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Big Al Whittle Date: 11 May 07 - 08:58 AM there are positives - you can have a chat, while they are diddly dee-ing, which isn't so easy when someone is singing. personally I don't go to many of those places where they get up to that sort of stuff. they are obviously enjoying themselves and they aren't actually doing anyone any harm. you've got to live and let live. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Jack Campin Date: 11 May 07 - 09:04 AM "QUICK!!!" is something a hell of a lot of singers have real problems with. Why do so many singers take longer to get started (fumble through lyrics book, retune, explain they haven't sung this one in years, tell you where they first heard it, start in the wrong key, forget words on the first chorus, finally get under way) than an instrumentalist takes to do their complete set? When it looks like your instrument is going to go out of tune or get covered in spiderwebs before the singer gets moving, the obvious thing to do is just play something. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: John MacKenzie Date: 11 May 07 - 09:05 AM It's called Diddley diddley Dave. They can be a pain though can't they? Giok |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 11 May 07 - 09:07 AM Just heard on an Woodsongs Old Time Radio Hour Show recording - "This was a wonderful show with very great artists, and very great music. I have one big concern - that YOU don't get intimidated by what you see and hear on this show - Don't let these artists who have practised and worked, stop YOU because you think that you are not good enough. You never ever ever set your personal musical goal by what you hear of somebody else. You do what's best for YOU. And because you do it imperfectly, means that you're doing it just like them. So never ever give up your music cause you don't think that you're good enough" |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Sorcha Date: 11 May 07 - 09:18 AM Yea....if it's an instrumental musicians SESSION, it's not a CONCERT. Sessioners are playing for ourselves, because we are having fun. The 'audience' is under NO obligation to listen, applaud, boo, or even be there. Concerts with paid seating, OK, I'll give you that. If you aren't enjoying an instrumental session, go elsewhere. If you want a sing around session, go start one somewhere. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Trevor Date: 11 May 07 - 09:23 AM "Which is why, as a rule, musicians are in one pub & singers in another." Erm....'scuse me......am I not a musician if I 'only' sing? |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: jacqui.c Date: 11 May 07 - 09:24 AM I agree with the original poster. Problem is, what starts as a singaround can get hijacked by the musos - seen it happen a number of times. I have occasionally got pissed off with someone coming in with their interpretation of a tune the I am singing when it doesn't match what I'm doing. I'm doing it for MY enjoyment as well, so I think that there should be some respect from others. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Alice Date: 11 May 07 - 09:26 AM Trevor, I noticed that remark, too. Singers ARE musicians. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Sugwash Date: 11 May 07 - 09:28 AM Looking on the bright side, you're obviously singing well enough for the other musicians to want to join in. It's always tough at sessions for singers to make themselves heard above the enthusiastic accompaniment; I've got a foot in both camps. I find that a gentle word asking for a more sympathetic approach to accompaniment sometimes works. Of course this isn't always the case, I was plagued by an harmonica player once (I love a good harmonica player...sadly, this one wasn't). Every attempt to fox him by creative use of a capo just resulted in him delving deeper into his commodious bag to find a harp of exotic key. So try talking to the musicians, it might just work. If it doesn't — go buy the loudest bodrahn you an find and get even! |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 11 May 07 - 09:29 AM ""Which is why, as a rule, musicians are in one pub & singers in another."" Which is why, as a rule, |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: wysiwyg Date: 11 May 07 - 09:33 AM I admit I didn't read all the posts-- but it seems a bit odd to blame fiddlers for diddly-deeing when guitarists are known notorious noodlers who have eaten the clock and the ears at many a jam or otherwise happy musical experience! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Alice Date: 11 May 07 - 09:38 AM I guess I'm lucky that our session has always been respectful of people who join in whether with song or instrument, and many sing and play both. We've been meeting since about 1994 and have successfully kept the core group of people involved with many great experiences of people who join in over the years. There is no formal club, no leader, no written rules, no member/non-member status, no nazi controls. We'll move from tunes to songs and everyone seems to have a good time, whether solos, group tunes, solo songs or group songs. It's all about enjoying making music. It is kept mostly to Irish or Scottish music, but if someone adds in an American or English or Canadian or French or Welsh or Australian tune or song, it is respected and enjoyed. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: GUEST,Russ Date: 11 May 07 - 09:52 AM Singers are from ______ Instrumentalists are from _____ Russ (Permanent GUEST, banjo player and singer) |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: GUEST,Terry McDonald Date: 11 May 07 - 09:54 AM Yes, we've got one of those harmonica players at our club - even singing/playing in F# doesn't stop him. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: mandotim Date: 11 May 07 - 09:55 AM I sing and play, which gets me funny looks at some sessions if I have the temerity to attempt them both at once. Strikes me there are two sides to this issue, as always. Not all singers are musicians, just like not all instrumentalists are musicians. A musician is more than someone who can knock a tune out of an instrument, be it a fiddle, flute, guitar or voice. A musician has a sense of the music itself, and is sensitive to the surroundings, the needs of the audience (if any) and of the other players. When I'm accompanying someone, I try to do just that; my job is to make the singer and the song sound as good as possible, and to fit what I am playing to the singer. (I don't always succeed, but I try) My job is not to show how cleverly I can play, or how fast. If I'm the lead instrument, it's the other way around; really successful sessions seem to 'get' this idea. The real trick is communication, and most of this is down to listening and watching carefully, giving at least as much attention to listening as to playing. I suppose the last thing is about appreciation of differences. Not everyone plays the same way, or to the same level; but in the words of the old proverb 'If only the best bird sang, the forest would be a very quiet place'. Tim |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Barry Finn Date: 11 May 07 - 10:02 AM It used to be (30 yrs ago) that I'd go to a sessions & dancers would be called on to dance, singers would be called on to sing & some would be called on for a poem or a resertation, all this intermixed with the instrumentalists still playing tunes (ok, not while the others are carring on). At sessions these days it's seldom that a song is sung & hardly a dancer is seen & almost never a spoken word. I certinaly miss the mix. The excuses above about the singers is not so, most good ones have gone elsewhere. There used to be many singers that could silence a pub as soon as they started to sing but they've been pushed out the door & made to feel unwelcome at many sessions these days (at least from what I've seen) with few exceptions, that's the reason so many singers clubs have started up. There's no reason why there needs to be seperate sessions unless one has driven out the others. I do love to play all night but I also miss the many voices & songs that I hardly hear anymore. (I make special exception to the Press Room in Portsmouth, the Starry Plough in San Francisco & the Green Briar in Boston. I don't know how it is elsewhere) Barry |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 11 May 07 - 10:06 AM "A musician has a sense of the music itself, and is sensitive to the surroundings, the needs of the audience (if any) and of the other players. " I studied theatre. One of my early problems was that I was 'too sensitive' to what was going on around me! I had to LEARN how to not pick up the emotions of the other actors around me if I was supposed to be doing something contrasting! A good skill, and it also taught me what switches needed to be thrown (internally, emotionally) to become sensitive, or aloof in the appropriate circumstances. :-) there are two types of people, those who look out, and those who look in. A good muso need to have a bit of both - one to fit in with what is going on externally, and the other to control and shape the music coming form inside and being channelled outwards. Far too many 'players' (of those of whom you complain!) have only the second, and very little of the first, Dave! Dave, you have been a victim of another "Attack of the B-Graders"!!! :-) |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: GUEST,gan ainm Date: 11 May 07 - 10:49 AM If you - as a singer - find yourself in a "diddley-dee" session, you're obviously in the wrong session. Why did you go there in the first place ? Go start one of your own. Problem solved. In fact I'll make a deal with you. I solemnly swear never to play a note in your singing session if you promise never to sing a note in mine. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: LesB Date: 11 May 07 - 10:50 AM Another view on this instumentalists/singers theme is that if you are not a brilliant player, but you want to join in & learn to be better at playing along. You can do so quietly, & if you hit the odd bum note no one notices. If you stand up (or sit), & sing all eyes are on you, there is nowhere to hide & you feel you are being judged by everyone. This is one reason I prefer to play at a session & not sing in a singaround. Although I am perfectly happy to sing on a singers night at a folk club. Funny thing nerves. Cheers Les |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: stallion Date: 11 May 07 - 10:55 AM I think I have contributed to a similar thread to this before. of the "singaround", "Instruments" and "Mixed" sessions I much prefer the mixed sessions, there is much more variety. However some of the guys with instruments (as i am sure I have said somewhere before) have to be trained like puppies, sometimes physical abuse has to be hinted at to stop the back to back tune fiddlers, but when it works it is great. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: TheSnail Date: 11 May 07 - 11:24 AM GUEST,Dave >the demolition of a number of beautiful songs by over-bearing metronomically-perfect playing by the sessionists, over the top (round, through and underneath) of the singers.< Speaking as an instrumentalist and (I hope) musician, where does this happen? I want to be able to avoid it. It would never occur to me to join in uninvited instrumentally with a singer. I've never heard it happen around here (Sussex). weelittledrummer >there are positives - you can have a chat, while they are diddly dee-ing, which isn't so easy when someone is singing.< And don't they just. Singers will listen with rapt attention to the most mediocre vocalist but will cheerfully talk over any instrumentalist no matter how good generally talking louder to be heard over the "noise". Show US a little respect too please. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Goose Gander Date: 11 May 07 - 11:27 AM I take it you don't like ornamentation. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: TheSnail Date: 11 May 07 - 11:56 AM Depends how heavy the ornaments and how accurate the thrower. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Bill D Date: 11 May 07 - 12:13 PM Some folks are missing the point in order to defend their specific interests. The original post refers primarily to times when there is a mixed group of people making music...not to times when naughty singers try to inject songs into a fine **session** of instrumentalists. Of course singers should know their material and practice and have some idea of proper key before they start....and of course they should not sing, then begin talking while folks are trying to play a tune......but it IS the case that instrumentalists who like to accompany singers also need to, as suggested, be aware of how the song is being presented and *follow* the singer, not try to force tempo and phrasing changes.....and to even consider whether the song might be best NOT accompanied. I know offenders of both types...and I know fine, consummate musicians who can usually provide competant accompaniment to most songs. I do not know what to say to those who cannot keep their hands off their instruments when someone starts to sing...except, "Please...if you don't know the tune and timing I'm using, don't play" This is about enjoyment, not oneupmanship... all participants in a musical gathering, especially when the skill levels are mixed, should try to be civil & supportive....or else try to find a corner where you can do it YOUR way without having to deal with 'those folks' *grin*. At the FSGW Getaway last fall, there were well-known musicians (singers and instrumentalists, and some who could do both) who sat and happily and politely shared music with anyone who came by! They took their turn in general singrounds...and then later got together in smaller groups and 'raised the standard'....making music that not everyone could follow. There's room for all....but it takes some patience and thoughtfulness BY all. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: banksie Date: 11 May 07 - 12:35 PM Don't forget that, if the instrumentalists can join in, then you are singing in a key they can play, most likely C, D, G, or Em. Learn to sing in a really odd key, that's fox 'em. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: John MacKenzie Date: 11 May 07 - 12:54 PM Tune your guitar a semitone out, that really f**k* them. Hee hee. Giok |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 11 May 07 - 01:39 PM I gain most of my pleasure in mixed sessions. I am primarily a singer who has learned enough musicianship to accompany my voice without actually disgracing myself, and I find that mixed sessions actually increase and improve my performance. I would never dream of picking up my guitar to add a lumpen, inadequate, accompaniment to a fine violin solo. I would much prefer to sit enthralled and listen to a master performing. By the same token, I would be most grateful if the same master were to refrain from "improving" the arrangement of a song that I have slaved to produce, by taking over, and changing, melody and tempo regardless of what he is hearing from me. I worked hard to produce my interpretation, and now nobody can hear it. This is why I am such a fan of the mixed sessions at The Bedford, during Sidmouth Folk Festival. They are run by John Barden and, as is the case with all his sessions, you hardly notice his hand upon the tiller. But overstep the mark and it becomes very apparent. In every session I have attended, run by him, musos and singers operate amicably side by side. Anyone interested in how to run music and song together should seek out one of thse and watch a master at work. Those who are not interested can always run things their way at their sessions, and wonder why folk is in decline (maybe they'll figure it out one day). Don T. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: PoppaGator Date: 11 May 07 - 02:27 PM I think this discussion may be highlighting a notable difference between customs on either side of "the pond." For one thing, unaccompanied singing is a proud traditon in Ireland and the UK but almost completely unknown in the US. I engage in a bit of unaccompanied group singing with a bunch of shanty enthusiasts, which itself is pretty rare hereabouts ~ unaccompanied solo vocalization is even more unheard of. The upshot: we Americans don't have singing-only events, and the corollary is that instrumental-only sessions are pretty rare, too, since so many people who play instruments are singing self-accompanyists. Good singers are musicians, and musicianly instrumentalists should be able to provide sensitive accompaniment to singing. And if a session or jam or whatever is truly going to accomodate a mixture of singers and non-singing pickers, there has to be an agreed-upon plan or "schedule" for alternating sung verses with intrumental breaks. I think bluegrassers generally know how to cooperate in this manner. My experience of participating in this kind of group activity, even when things are generally pretty well worked-out, is that the singers (even including those who strum while singing) tend to prefer running through a few quick repetitions and then starting yet another new song, while instrumentalists much prefer to repeat round after round for a much longer time, giving each instrument plenty of opportunity to stretch out and explore the tune, etc. Finding a happy medium to accommodate both tendencies shouldn't be that difficult, and indeed is not always that difficult, but you have to understand the potential conflict in order to defuse it. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: GUEST,Scoville Date: 11 May 07 - 02:40 PM I know plenty of Americans who will happily listen to unaccompanied singers when they find them. Granted, there are probably fewer instances of unaccompanied singing by individuals overall except possibly in Appalachia and in African-American communities. We've got a larger proportion of landlocked area; shanties aren't that big a sell. I always though the division was that some people are jerks and some are not, and some jerks happen to play instruments. There are also jerks who sing along loudly enough to interfere with the performer, so it's not strictly an instrumentalist problem. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Alice Date: 11 May 07 - 02:51 PM Good one, Scoville. I'm glad to live where there is a session of non-jerks. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Stewart Date: 11 May 07 - 04:03 PM A bit of good advice I was once given: "If you don't like the sessions going on around you, start your own." It may be hard to do, but once you do, it's the way to go. I now host a monthly session at my home. It is by invitation, but newcomers invited by regulars are always welcome. We have some very good instrumentalists who also are good singers. So we mix it all together. The instrumentalists are very sensitive to the singers and only play if they can enhance the singing. And the singers enjoy letting an instrumentalist play a break. And the singers are instrumentalists who also enjoy good tunes. We've had some very magical moments of great ensemble playing and singing that often happen spontaneously. And since we play together a lot, we know each others musical styles. So that's just my take on the subject. You don't have to put up with the jerks. Cheers, S. in Seattle |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Bill D Date: 11 May 07 - 05:22 PM "...unaccompanied singing is a proud traditon in Ireland and the UK but almost completely unknown in the US." *grin*...well, you need to come to the Getaway, PoppaGator. There may not be thousands of acapella singers around, but we have bunches of 'em in the groups I attend, and the Getaway has many ballad sessions and other things...including shanties. I am lucky to live on the East coast, where the singing tradition is still pretty viable. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: jacqui.c Date: 11 May 07 - 05:54 PM Or come to the Press Room in NH or SINSULL's song circles in Maine. Lots of unaccompanied singing at both |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Banjo-Flower Date: 11 May 07 - 06:51 PM keep it up folks,you're all doing a grand job responding to a troll(where's guest dave after his initial post) Gerry |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: TheSnail Date: 11 May 07 - 07:25 PM Troll or not, it has raised valuable points. I love mixed vocal/instrumental sessions. I promise not to try and accompany your singing without being invited (and that has happened) if you promise not to discuss what happened in Desperate Housewives last night with the person on the opposite side of me while I'm playing. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Azizi Date: 11 May 07 - 07:29 PM Banjo Flower, guest dave might be a troll, but I'm not sure of that. In my opinion, even if a troll writes his or her post to stir up trouble, if the resulting conversation isn't argumentative, and if folks consider that topic worthy of discussion, than it's nothing wrong with folks responding to that post. I don't get the sense that the initial post of this thread has resulted in folks arguing or even disagreeing. That said, I'm trying to understand what guest dave meant by the phrase "diddly-dee" and also what he meant by the sentence "One other piece of advice – during your "Three Times in D; Six times in G; Thirty seven times in A" musical extravaganza, just take time to lift your heads long enough to see the number of jaws on the floor." Where does "diddly-dee" come from? And what exactly does "Three Times in D; Six times in G; Thirty seven times in A" mean? I think that guest dave is saying that during these sessions the instrumentalists play too much and don't leave time for the singers, thus turing off their audiences. Is this what he is saying? |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Banjo-Flower Date: 11 May 07 - 07:44 PM Yes that's what he's saying "diddly-dee" derogative slang for instrumental Irish Music "Three Times in D; Six times in G; Thirty seven times in A" = Sarcasm Gerry |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Azizi Date: 11 May 07 - 07:53 PM Okay, thanks Gerry. It just occurred to me that D, G, and A are musical notes. Duh! Sorta in my defense, sometimes English-and musical terminology-really is a foreign language. But, thanks to Mudcat, I'm learning. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Banjo-Flower Date: 11 May 07 - 08:00 PM "It just occurred to me that D, G, and A are musical notes" they're also key signatures Gerry |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Azizi Date: 11 May 07 - 08:19 PM "they're also key signatures" ??? Could there be other non-musicians and vocalists on Mudcat besides me? If so, this info may also be for you: I googled "musical key signatures" and then clicked on this website: http://www.empire.k12.ca.us/capistrano/Mike/capmusic/Key%20Signatures/key_signatures.htm Here's an excerpt from that website: "What Are Key Signatures? A key signature tells us what key we're in. Key signatures are made up of sharps and flats and naturals. They appear at the beginning of the music, but can also appear in other parts of the music. You can see key signatures between the clef sign and the time signature" etc. -snip- I appreciate y'll putting up with these somewhat off topic postings. Now back to the discussion of the rightness or wrongness of diddly-dee... |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: michaelr Date: 11 May 07 - 09:16 PM "Diddley-dee" is definitely a derogatory term for Irish trad dance music. It's used a lot by "modern" Irish people who think their traditional music is quaint and outmoded. As in: "We're a modern country now. Would you diddley-dee people stop making us look like feckin' eejits!" Which makes the speaker look like a feckin' eejit. Cheers, Michael |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: GUEST,Scoville at Dad's Date: 11 May 07 - 09:19 PM Ditto, Azizi--I think so far this has been a pretty civil thread. It's even apparently gotten more civil as it got longer. That's got to be a first. And confused non-musicians can always PM me if they're afraid they'll get teased on public posts. I don't know everything but I'll do my best. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Big Al Whittle Date: 12 May 07 - 12:44 AM When I've heard Irish musicians use the term - its usually applied to the more hackneyed part of the Irish trad repertoire, which is nevertheless their bread and butter in some venues. And TheSnail:- 'weelittledrummer >there are positives - you can have a chat, while they are diddly dee-ing, which isn't so easy when someone is singing.< And don't they just. Singers will listen with rapt attention to the most mediocre vocalist but will cheerfully talk over any instrumentalist no matter how good generally talking louder to be heard over the "noise". Show US a little respect too please.' In answer, I can only say I'm not a super talented musician, but I work hard at what I do. Even so, whilst in practice the variations on a theme is someting I may practice endlessly in private - I endeavour to save the more interesting bits for when I'm in public. I have and show respect for all other musicians. What we are talking about here is the chap who is intoxicated with his ability to stagger through the piece one time - so he plays it twenty times. Also the player who does his practicing in public, and occasionally the player who 'doesn't believe in tuners'. In such cases ones attention is inclined to wander, particularly when they get played on the radio. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: John MacKenzie Date: 12 May 07 - 04:32 AM It is also applied to Scottish trad music, and to my mind it denotes a preponderance of fiddles. Mind you fiddles outnumber bodhrans by quite a bit in my end of the world, and I'm almost certain that fiddle players are being quietly [sic], cloned in some secret workshop. Somewhere around Perth is my best guess! Giok Is it a 'scrape' of fiddles BTW? |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Declan Date: 12 May 07 - 04:53 AM I could write a book about sessions. In fact maybe I'll try to do so one of these days. For anyone interested in such a book, I recommend "Last Night's Fun" by Kieran Carson. An idiosyncratic take on life and Irish Traditional music. Now to address this thread. Guest, Dave doesn't seem to like Traditional Dance Music. I've no idea what sort of music was being played in the sessions he's talked about, but as has been said the term Diddly-Dee is usually used in terms of Irish (or sometimes Scottish) Music. By the way WLD the fact that Irish musicians sometimes use the phrase doesn't mean it can't be a pejorative term – it's a bit like young African American's using the n-word to describe themselves or each other, its usually an ironic thing. Not knowing the circumstances which gave rise to Dave's rant, it hard to comment, but if my assumption that he doesn't like the music is correct, then it begs the question, what was he doing in a room full of fiddle, accordion, flute and whistle players in the first place. If there was a session of songs going on and the tunes players hijacked it that was very rude of them. If he joined the session with those instruments there did he really think they were going to sit there quietly and listen to him all afternoon. I do agree that people shouldn't join in to accompany a singer unless they are asked to. But if they're not allowed to either join in or play their own choice of tunes, it doesn't seem that they have much opportunity to join the session at all. The assertion that the voice is THE LEAD INSTRUMENT is nonsense to me. It is if you are only allowing songs and no tunes, but if instrumentals are allowed then the voice is best left silent to give the players a chance. To me the voice is not an instrument, but this doesn't mean that I don't recognize that singing is an important form of musical expression and works best when the singer has learned their craft, much in the way that other musicians learn their instrument. Sessions are made up of people, and like people each one has its unique character. If you don't like the character of the session you find yourself in, there is usually the option of going to a different one. I both sing and play (that is accompany) tunes on the guitar. I enjoy doing both. In some ways I therefore have a foot on both sides of the singing/tunes debate. Mixed sessions are great when they work, but they require people with open minds, prepared to give and take if they are going to work properly. I don't get the impression we are dealing with an open-minded person here, but maybe I'm wrong. Where mixed sessions aren't working, separate sessions are an obvious answer. In many cases where the sessions are split between singing sessions and tunes sessions, Dave would not be very welcome in the singing session either, unless he kept his guitar case closed – but that's another topic. Finally, can I just say that it is a very rewarding thing to try to get to know and understand the dance music and the tunes. I've been doing so for 30 years and have only scratched the surface. If you're not interested fine – its your loss. But if you did start listening to the tunes you might find that that tune played over and over again in different keys was in fact a medley of tunes, each one unique in its own way and worth listening to. But sometimes good musicians do like to play the same tune many times to explore different variations of the melody, and if it's a good tune there's no harm in that in my book. Of course if you think that the time when people are playing tunes is an opportunity for a chat, you're unlikely to notice that. It's very difficult to listen properly to anything with your mouth open. Or it may be that you came across a group of rude people or bad musicians. In which case I repeat the question, what were you doing there? Life's too short to waste your time with something you're not enjoying. Find somewhere else and start your own session. Apologies if I've gone on a bit, but I found this thread both provocative and thought provoking. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Azizi Date: 12 May 07 - 05:21 AM Daughters should read songs too or do you want daughters to only play songs by ear? ;o} |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Azizi Date: 12 May 07 - 05:25 AM Consider me off tune if my last post doesn't make any sense. It did make sense when I wrote it. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Declan Date: 12 May 07 - 05:30 AM Azizi, It made perfect sense to me when I read it. And very funny too. However my self correction, to which it referred seems to have disappeared. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Azizi Date: 12 May 07 - 06:01 AM If you know American children's songs you may get this referent to what you wrote in your last post: "Here today. Goon tomorrow." [Hint-it's from the story/song "Little Bunnie Foo Foo"] And since I hate it when I don't get the punch line of a joke, maybe I should broadly hint that that sexist Declan had left out a 'g' and then posted that "sons read songs" I guessed that "read" meant "means" but I just felt like having fun playing with words. I was only joshing when I said that Declan is a sexist. I didn't mean what I said and I certainly didn't mean to be mean. Have a good day! Azizi |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: GUEST,Dave (The TROLL) Date: 12 May 07 - 06:48 AM Hi There Mudcatters! I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my opening shot, but I have a provocative habit of being a tad controversial to get a lively debate going. This is a lively debate, and I've enjoyed watching the comments filter through. In answer to some criticisms: 1. I am not the singer of the "beautiful songs" to which I referred. I just felt very sorry for those singers who battled bravely under difficult circumstances. 2. I admire and envy the fiddle, accordion, whistle and flute etc. sessionists and their ability to learn so many tunes and get it on together in such an informal way. I love their music too, can accompany it on guitar but choose not to in most cases because there are usually enough players without my input. 3. The "sessions" were all-come-ye mixed bags of tunes, songs, verse or whatever. I love the variety, and the noise and laughter, but have to strain my ears to hear the singers. I have no problem hearing those instruments that are well able to cut through the mix. 4. The "VOICE IS THE LEAD INSTRUMENT" – I defend that assertion on the grounds that I think the singer and the song is the centre-piece of the music, and any instruments then provide the ornamentation to enhance it's presentation. That's what I try to do, and if I don't feel my playing will contribute positively then I just listen. 5. In pub sessions I LOVE to hear others join in when I'm singing. I'm even quite happy to have what I do partly wrecked by the contributions too! - as long as the net effect is everybody enjoying the experience. Singing in a folk club is different though, and I'm very grateful to be able to get ample helpings of both dishes (off to the Holmfirth festival this afternoon for another injection). All I'm trying to say is give some time and attention to the singer and the song, and listen carefully in order to appreciate what the singer is attempting to do. It's not difficult for a fiddle, accordion or whistle/flute player to be heard above the background noise in a pub environment. It is very difficult for a singer, unless there is sympathy, empathy and support of the right kind. The audience do appreciate the variety, so some attention to time-sharing does not come amiss! Bless you all - keep music live! Dave |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: TheSnail Date: 12 May 07 - 07:11 AM weelittledrummer >What we are talking about here is the chap who is intoxicated with his ability to stagger through the piece one time - so he plays it twenty times.< I'm not. I'm talking about spending hours praticing my latest masterpiece and then getting treated as musical wallpaper; an opportunity to talk - loudly. >Also the player who does his practicing in public, and occasionally the player who 'doesn't believe in tuners'.< So all singers are word and note perfect before they start? I'm obviously not getting at you personally WLD since I don't know you (or do I?) but your first statement gave me the opportunity to air something that has been bugging me. A lot of people (including me) will sit in silent reverence to someone singing a 48 verse ballad flat with occasinal breaks to remember the words but break into animated conversation the moment the fiddler starts up. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Ron Davies Date: 12 May 07 - 07:24 AM I love instrumentalists to play on songs I sing--obviously not all--chanteys don't lend themselves to that approach. But there are lots of songs which do--and if a song is good, I like it to last--like any pleasurable activity. Many songs are just enriched by letting instrumentalists take breaks--and it's great to hear them. Of course it's essential for all concerned to keep a steady rhythm if there's accompaniment. Similarly, it's very possible to compliment a song in accompaniment--just don't double the melody---and don't overwhelm the song. And instrumentalists have to realize when a singer wants to be flexible in timing--and not chained to a steady rhythm. I will have to admit I'm more vocally oriented--and can get my fill rather soon of, say, a series of bluegrass instrumentals--with no vocals. And if that happens I will definitely go elsewhere. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Big Al Whittle Date: 12 May 07 - 07:31 AM I don't know if I know you - who are you? this is me http://bigalwhittle.co.uk/ |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: TheSnail Date: 12 May 07 - 07:55 AM Ooh! Foreign parts. Somewhere north of Ringmer. Bryan Creer. Member of Spare Parts concertina band, aspiring fiddler and resident of Lewes Arms Folk Club. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Dave Earl Date: 12 May 07 - 03:38 PM Bryan All is revealed and your cover is blown Dave Another resident of Lewes Arms Folk Club |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Big Al Whittle Date: 12 May 07 - 03:46 PM Pleased to meet you. Are you going to Weymouth folk festival? |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Leadfingers Date: 12 May 07 - 09:26 PM As a sort of singer and aspiring musician , I know exactly where Dave is coming from ! IF someone has started a song , it is not really good form to join in and play it the way you want to do it , any more than joining in a chorus and changing the tempo ! The first thing a musician should learn to do is LISTEN ! IF you can play in the key the singeris in , and it is NOT a traditional song NOT designed for a small Orchestra , DONT play - If the singer is accompanying himself , join in QUIETLY . And there IS a tendency for Instrumental sets to be played MUCH too fast to be danced to ! Its fine to 'entertain' an audience by doing a set of reels , each in a different key , and somewhat up tempo , but you CAN lose the feel of a melody if its played too fast ! So if we all step back a little , and listen to each other and try NOT to be either and ego tripper or prima donna , we can have good mixed sessions ! |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: GUEST Date: 13 May 07 - 02:08 AM The prats (diddlers) usualy know only one key and one mode i.e. G petatonoc and play variations all night - most singer/guitarists are far more versatile, playing in a variety of keys and styles. Diddly Dee is not derogatory it is a fact - thets what the fucking shit sounds like! |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Alan Day Date: 13 May 07 - 04:53 AM A point worth remembering is that Folk Festivals are supported by many musicians who only go for the sessions.They are the backbone of these events.They are the future artists people will pay to go and watch.These sessions are practice and breeding grounds for future star musicians,as are song sessions for singers.Most sessions do not have rules,they consist of players going there for fun. A singer going to a music session is in the minority and must expect to be treated as such,but at the same time should get the respect of the other musicians when he sings.Likewise for a musician (instrumentalist) turning up at a sing around when he plays. Al |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: TheSnail Date: 13 May 07 - 06:59 AM weelittledrummer >Are you going to Weymouth folk festival?< No. Spare Parts are running workshops at Chippenham, Wickham, Teignmouth and Tenterden. I'm going to Towersey as a paying punter. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: mandotim Date: 13 May 07 - 07:50 AM Dear Guest 0208 am; thank you so much for enlightening us with your musical knowlege, erudition and even-handedness. Perhaps you could return with further comments as soon as you have finished your education? Tim |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: mandotim Date: 13 May 07 - 03:00 PM Er...that should read 'knowledge'... Tim |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Snuffy Date: 14 May 07 - 09:41 AM I've found it's not the singers but the We used to have a good mixed session, but Gresham's Law means it's now mostly instrumental, plus a couple of singers who can accompany themselves and sing in G. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: TheSnail Date: 14 May 07 - 11:06 AM Different sessions, different problems. I think that any melodeon player round here who tried to accompany a singer would find that they quickly developed leaky bellows. I agree about the nuisance of noodlers but that's just as much of a problem to other musicians. We play a lot more than 12 tunes in Sussex. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: GUEST Date: 14 May 07 - 01:35 PM A few typos says that I am uneducated? Diddly dee is ok in small doses. It's the musical snoots that play it at a lot of session that make me sick! |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: mandotim Date: 14 May 07 - 01:51 PM Dear Guest 01.35pm; it wasn't so much the typos as the primary school level of argument employed and the unecessary resort to foul language. I agree with you about sessions where musicians play obscure (and often repetitive)tunes. It can get very wearing. The same goes for some seemingly everlasting bluegrass jams, and some shanty sessions where the roar of deep, well lubricated male voices all begins to sound the same after we've rounded the Horn for the eleventh time that evening. There are people who enjoy these events though; and they have as much right to their enjoyment as you or I. If this sort of thing makes you sick, don't go! Find a good mixed session, or start your own. Unless you enjoy having a rant about such things, of course. Respectfully, Tim |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: TheSnail Date: 14 May 07 - 02:58 PM Maybe the problem is the way sessions are organised. In this neck of the woods there is generally someone running the show who will call on individuals to sing a song or lead a tune or tell a story. Nobody gets the opportunity to dominate and the more shy and retiring can get their chance. Anybody is free to say "No, I'll just sing/play along." Sessions may be song only, instrumental only or mixed and this is generally known in advance. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Gulliver Date: 14 May 07 - 04:35 PM In most of the sessions I go to in Dublin we start off with tunes, maybe for 30/40 minutes, then have songs for about an hour or so, then more tunes--this gives those people who remained quiet during the singing to have a chat--then more songs. This seems to keep most people happy (though there is sometimes heated discussion about presence, or lack of, of guitars, bodhráns, etc., but that's normal in a lively session!) |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Richard Bridge Date: 14 May 07 - 05:13 PM Good plan Snail. Then you get the Fnurds who go deep 6 about how boring it is to have to wait their turn and they would rather jump in. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Cool Beans Date: 14 May 07 - 05:44 PM It's hard enough to be playing and singing folk music in a hip-hop world. Can't we all just get along? That said, I confess that during the concurrence of Cajun Week and Guitar Week at Augusta (West Virginia) a couple years ago how sorely I was tempted to say to the Cajun doy-diddy players, "Very nice tune. Now play the other one." But I held my tongue. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: TheSnail Date: 14 May 07 - 05:57 PM "then more tunes--this gives those people who remained quiet during the singing to have a chat" I rest my case. Actually that's not so much of a problem. It's when you're trying to show off your new party piece or maybe a couple of you have worked out an arrangement that you'd like people to listen to. The Pavlovian response switches in. Tunes! Talk! As for Fnurds, if there is an accepted right way of doing things, they'll get the message eventually. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: GUEST,Scoville Date: 14 May 07 - 10:24 PM Spent Saturday night at a Slaid Cleaves show and half the audience talked through the performance. Now, I could sort of see talking at a Wednesday-night session, but I, personally, never pay a $15 cover charge for the privilege of talking over a musician. I can do that at home with my CD player for free. |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 14 May 07 - 10:54 PM Are Fnurds related to Fnords? :-) |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 15 May 07 - 12:03 AM Sorry, for those in on the joke, that should really have been Are Fnurds related to Fnords? |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: Dave the Gnome Date: 15 May 07 - 11:26 AM I went to a concert in Brussels of all places where an Irish band (can't remember which) were playing. A family of Americans or Canadians (excuse my ignorance) were sat at the same table as me and chatted loudly all the time. I pointed out that I had not paid my 15 Euros or whetever to hear about their family holiday. I asked 'Dad' if he was happy paying 60 euros to do what he could do free at home and at least managed to get him thinking before I left to sit elsewere:-) BTW - In context shouldn't it be G-nurds... :D |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: GUEST Date: 15 May 07 - 06:50 PM PM them and ask for your money back ! |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: GUEST,Ted in bed Date: 16 May 07 - 03:26 AM Tune session tonight at The Tiger in Beverley. Mostly Northumbrian in F and a bit, G and D. Pork pies served at 9.32pm(approx) Be there or be square! 25mm wearing course, the true path! |
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Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST! From: GUEST,A guest but not for long. Date: 16 May 07 - 01:55 PM Got dragged to a session at Sweeps and carefully hid flute away from human sight. The problem was that the singers were so far up their own and the other singers' bums that I freely partook of the beer in preference. Fred Wedlock's bit about forgetting verse 298 so I substituted 45 and no one noticed came to mind. Going with the side bearing melodeon next year and keeping clear of the anal retentive. |
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