A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 May 07 - 02:27 PM

I think this discussion may be highlighting a notable difference between customs on either side of "the pond."

For one thing, unaccompanied singing is a proud traditon in Ireland and the UK but almost completely unknown in the US. I engage in a bit of unaccompanied group singing with a bunch of shanty enthusiasts, which itself is pretty rare hereabouts ~ unaccompanied solo vocalization is even more unheard of. The upshot: we Americans don't have singing-only events, and the corollary is that instrumental-only sessions are pretty rare, too, since so many people who play instruments are singing self-accompanyists.

Good singers are musicians, and musicianly instrumentalists should be able to provide sensitive accompaniment to singing. And if a session or jam or whatever is truly going to accomodate a mixture of singers and non-singing pickers, there has to be an agreed-upon plan or "schedule" for alternating sung verses with intrumental breaks.

I think bluegrassers generally know how to cooperate in this manner.

My experience of participating in this kind of group activity, even when things are generally pretty well worked-out, is that the singers (even including those who strum while singing) tend to prefer running through a few quick repetitions and then starting yet another new song, while instrumentalists much prefer to repeat round after round for a much longer time, giving each instrument plenty of opportunity to stretch out and explore the tune, etc.

Finding a happy medium to accommodate both tendencies shouldn't be that difficult, and indeed is not always that difficult, but you have to understand the potential conflict in order to defuse it.

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 May 07 - 01:39 PM

I gain most of my pleasure in mixed sessions.

I am primarily a singer who has learned enough musicianship to accompany my voice without actually disgracing myself, and I find that mixed sessions actually increase and improve my performance.

I would never dream of picking up my guitar to add a lumpen, inadequate, accompaniment to a fine violin solo. I would much prefer to sit enthralled and listen to a master performing.

By the same token, I would be most grateful if the same master were to refrain from "improving" the arrangement of a song that I have slaved to produce, by taking over, and changing, melody and tempo regardless of what he is hearing from me.

I worked hard to produce my interpretation, and now nobody can hear it.

This is why I am such a fan of the mixed sessions at The Bedford, during Sidmouth Folk Festival. They are run by John Barden and, as is the case with all his sessions, you hardly notice his hand upon the tiller. But overstep the mark and it becomes very apparent.

In every session I have attended, run by him, musos and singers operate amicably side by side. Anyone interested in how to run music and song together should seek out one of thse and watch a master at work. Those who are not interested can always run things their way at their sessions, and wonder why folk is in decline (maybe they'll figure it out one day).

Don T.

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 May 07 - 12:54 PM

Tune your guitar a semitone out, that really f**k* them. Hee hee.
Giok

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: banksie
Date: 11 May 07 - 12:35 PM

Don't forget that, if the instrumentalists can join in, then you are singing in a key they can play, most likely C, D, G, or Em.

Learn to sing in a really odd key, that's fox 'em.

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: Bill D
Date: 11 May 07 - 12:13 PM

Some folks are missing the point in order to defend their specific interests. The original post refers primarily to times when there is a mixed group of people making music...not to times when naughty singers try to inject songs into a fine **session** of instrumentalists.

   Of course singers should know their material and practice and have some idea of proper key before they start....and of course they should not sing, then begin talking while folks are trying to play a tune......but it IS the case that instrumentalists who like to accompany singers also need to, as suggested, be aware of how the song is being presented and *follow* the singer, not try to force tempo and phrasing changes.....and to even consider whether the song might be best NOT accompanied.

I know offenders of both types...and I know fine, consummate musicians who can usually provide competant accompaniment to most songs. I do not know what to say to those who cannot keep their hands off their instruments when someone starts to sing...except, "Please...if you don't know the tune and timing I'm using, don't play"

This is about enjoyment, not oneupmanship... all participants in a musical gathering, especially when the skill levels are mixed, should try to be civil & supportive....or else try to find a corner where you can do it YOUR way without having to deal with 'those folks' *grin*.

At the FSGW Getaway last fall, there were well-known musicians (singers and instrumentalists, and some who could do both) who sat and happily and politely shared music with anyone who came by! They took their turn in general singrounds...and then later got together in smaller groups and 'raised the standard'....making music that not everyone could follow.
There's room for all....but it takes some patience and thoughtfulness BY all.

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 May 07 - 11:56 AM

Depends how heavy the ornaments and how accurate the thrower.

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: Goose Gander
Date: 11 May 07 - 11:27 AM

I take it you don't like ornamentation.

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 May 07 - 11:24 AM

GUEST,Dave
>the demolition of a number of beautiful songs by over-bearing metronomically-perfect playing by the sessionists, over the top (round, through and underneath) of the singers.<

Speaking as an instrumentalist and (I hope) musician, where does this happen? I want to be able to avoid it. It would never occur to me to join in uninvited instrumentally with a singer. I've never heard it happen around here (Sussex).

weelittledrummer
>there are positives - you can have a chat, while they are diddly dee-ing, which isn't so easy when someone is singing.<

And don't they just. Singers will listen with rapt attention to the most mediocre vocalist but will cheerfully talk over any instrumentalist no matter how good generally talking louder to be heard over the "noise". Show US a little respect too please.

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: stallion
Date: 11 May 07 - 10:55 AM

I think I have contributed to a similar thread to this before. of the "singaround", "Instruments" and "Mixed" sessions I much prefer the mixed sessions, there is much more variety. However some of the guys with instruments (as i am sure I have said somewhere before) have to be trained like puppies, sometimes physical abuse has to be hinted at to stop the back to back tune fiddlers, but when it works it is great.

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: LesB
Date: 11 May 07 - 10:50 AM

Another view on this instumentalists/singers theme is that if you are not a brilliant player, but you want to join in & learn to be better at playing along. You can do so quietly, & if you hit the odd bum note no one notices. If you stand up (or sit), & sing all eyes are on you, there is nowhere to hide & you feel you are being judged by everyone. This is one reason I prefer to play at a session & not sing in a singaround. Although I am perfectly happy to sing on a singers night at a folk club. Funny thing nerves.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: GUEST,gan ainm
Date: 11 May 07 - 10:49 AM

If you - as a singer - find yourself in a "diddley-dee" session, you're obviously in the wrong session. Why did you go there in the first place ? Go start one of your own. Problem solved. In fact I'll make a deal with you. I solemnly swear never to play a note in your singing session if you promise never to sing a note in mine.

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 May 07 - 10:06 AM

"A musician has a sense of the music itself, and is sensitive to the surroundings, the needs of the audience (if any) and of the other players. "

I studied theatre. One of my early problems was that I was 'too sensitive' to what was going on around me! I had to LEARN how to not pick up the emotions of the other actors around me if I was supposed to be doing something contrasting! A good skill, and it also taught me what switches needed to be thrown (internally, emotionally) to become sensitive, or aloof in the appropriate circumstances. :-)

there are two types of people, those who look out, and those who look in. A good muso need to have a bit of both - one to fit in with what is going on externally, and the other to control and shape the music coming form inside and being channelled outwards.

Far too many 'players' (of those of whom you complain!) have only the second, and very little of the first, Dave!

Dave, you have been a victim of another "Attack of the B-Graders"!!! :-)

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 May 07 - 10:02 AM

It used to be (30 yrs ago) that I'd go to a sessions & dancers would be called on to dance, singers would be called on to sing & some would be called on for a poem or a resertation, all this intermixed with the instrumentalists still playing tunes (ok, not while the others are carring on). At sessions these days it's
seldom that a song is sung & hardly a dancer is seen & almost never a spoken word. I certinaly miss the mix.
The excuses above about the singers is not so, most good ones have gone elsewhere. There used to be many singers that could silence a pub as soon as they started to sing but they've been pushed out the door & made to feel unwelcome at many sessions these days (at least from what I've seen) with few exceptions, that's the reason so many singers clubs have started up. There's no reason why there needs to be seperate sessions unless one has driven out the others. I do love to play all night but I also miss the many voices & songs that I hardly hear anymore. (I make special exception to the Press Room in Portsmouth, the Starry Plough in San Francisco & the Green Briar in Boston. I don't know how it is elsewhere)

Barry

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: mandotim
Date: 11 May 07 - 09:55 AM

I sing and play, which gets me funny looks at some sessions if I have the temerity to attempt them both at once. Strikes me there are two sides to this issue, as always. Not all singers are musicians, just like not all instrumentalists are musicians. A musician is more than someone who can knock a tune out of an instrument, be it a fiddle, flute, guitar or voice. A musician has a sense of the music itself, and is sensitive to the surroundings, the needs of the audience (if any) and of the other players. When I'm accompanying someone, I try to do just that; my job is to make the singer and the song sound as good as possible, and to fit what I am playing to the singer. (I don't always succeed, but I try) My job is not to show how cleverly I can play, or how fast. If I'm the lead instrument, it's the other way around; really successful sessions seem to 'get' this idea. The real trick is communication, and most of this is down to listening and watching carefully, giving at least as much attention to listening as to playing.
I suppose the last thing is about appreciation of differences. Not everyone plays the same way, or to the same level; but in the words of the old proverb 'If only the best bird sang, the forest would be a very quiet place'.
Tim

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 11 May 07 - 09:54 AM

Yes, we've got one of those harmonica players at our club - even singing/playing in F# doesn't stop him.

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 11 May 07 - 09:52 AM

Singers are from ______
Instrumentalists are from _____
Russ (Permanent GUEST, banjo player and singer)

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: Alice
Date: 11 May 07 - 09:38 AM

I guess I'm lucky that our session has always been respectful of people who join in whether with song or instrument, and many sing and play both. We've been meeting since about 1994 and have successfully kept the core group of people involved with many great experiences of people who join in over the years. There is no formal club, no leader, no written rules, no member/non-member status, no nazi controls. We'll move from tunes to songs and everyone seems to have a good time, whether solos, group tunes, solo songs or group songs. It's all about enjoying making music. It is kept mostly to Irish or Scottish music, but if someone adds in an American or English or Canadian or French or Welsh or Australian tune or song, it is respected and enjoyed.

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 May 07 - 09:33 AM

I admit I didn't read all the posts-- but it seems a bit odd to blame fiddlers for diddly-deeing when guitarists are known notorious noodlers who have eaten the clock and the ears at many a jam or otherwise happy musical experience!

~S~

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 May 07 - 09:29 AM

""Which is why, as a rule, musicians are in one pub & singers in another.""

Which is why, as a rule, musicians 'instrumentalists only' are in one pub & singers in another.

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: Sugwash
Date: 11 May 07 - 09:28 AM

Looking on the bright side, you're obviously singing well enough for the other musicians to want to join in. It's always tough at sessions for singers to make themselves heard above the enthusiastic accompaniment; I've got a foot in both camps. I find that a gentle word asking for a more sympathetic approach to accompaniment sometimes works. Of course this isn't always the case, I was plagued by an harmonica player once (I love a good harmonica player...sadly, this one wasn't). Every attempt to fox him by creative use of a capo just resulted in him delving deeper into his commodious bag to find a harp of exotic key.

So try talking to the musicians, it might just work. If it doesn't — go buy the loudest bodrahn you an find and get even!

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: Alice
Date: 11 May 07 - 09:26 AM

Trevor, I noticed that remark, too. Singers ARE musicians.

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 11 May 07 - 09:24 AM

I agree with the original poster. Problem is, what starts as a singaround can get hijacked by the musos - seen it happen a number of times.

I have occasionally got pissed off with someone coming in with their interpretation of a tune the I am singing when it doesn't match what I'm doing. I'm doing it for MY enjoyment as well, so I think that there should be some respect from others.

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: Trevor
Date: 11 May 07 - 09:23 AM

"Which is why, as a rule, musicians are in one pub & singers in another."

Erm....'scuse me......am I not a musician if I 'only' sing?

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 May 07 - 09:18 AM

Yea....if it's an instrumental musicians SESSION, it's not a CONCERT. Sessioners are playing for ourselves, because we are having fun. The 'audience' is under NO obligation to listen, applaud, boo, or even be there. Concerts with paid seating, OK, I'll give you that.

If you aren't enjoying an instrumental session, go elsewhere. If you want a sing around session, go start one somewhere.

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 May 07 - 09:07 AM

Just heard on an Woodsongs Old Time Radio Hour Show recording -

"This was a wonderful show with very great artists, and very great music. I have one big concern - that YOU don't get intimidated by what you see and hear on this show - Don't let these artists who have practised and worked, stop YOU because you think that you are not good enough. You never ever ever set your personal musical goal by what you hear of somebody else. You do what's best for YOU. And because you do it imperfectly, means that you're doing it just like them. So never ever give up your music cause you don't think that you're good enough"

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 May 07 - 09:05 AM

It's called Diddley diddley Dave.
They can be a pain though can't they?
Giok

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 May 07 - 09:04 AM

"QUICK!!!" is something a hell of a lot of singers have real problems with.

Why do so many singers take longer to get started (fumble through lyrics book, retune, explain they haven't sung this one in years, tell you where they first heard it, start in the wrong key, forget words on the first chorus, finally get under way) than an instrumentalist takes to do their complete set?

When it looks like your instrument is going to go out of tune or get covered in spiderwebs before the singer gets moving, the obvious thing to do is just play something.

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 May 07 - 08:58 AM

there are positives - you can have a chat, while they are diddly dee-ing, which isn't so easy when someone is singing.

personally I don't go to many of those places where they get up to that sort of stuff. they are obviously enjoying themselves and they aren't actually doing anyone any harm. you've got to live and let live.

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 May 07 - 08:56 AM

"A plea to all you fiddle, accordion, whistle and flute players out there – please have pity on the humble singer-guitarists who attempt to pick up some of the crumbs of time you drop during your endless diddly-dee sessions at festivals around the country"

Actually, even though I have one, haven't got around to learning the 'violin' yet - but I do play the other two, and have mucked about with flutes too.

On behalf of all good players of the two instruments in particular (note how I cleverly have not automatically included myself!) and also 'good scrapers and puffers', let say to you that you have been overwhelmed by far too poor players of these instruments!

Far too many bad drivers on the roads - just imagine what happens when that sort of mentality with cloth ears gets hold of an instrument!

As my father told me when I was still single digits of age after I had been playing the piano for a couple of years and showed him just how fast and loud I could play - "Any inexperienced fool can easily play loud and fast - it takes sensitivity, training and talent, as well as much experience to be able to play slow and softly". The he picked up his violin and placed the bow on the string at the frog end and drew it gently and very slowly all the was to the tip and back - and produced a clear, resonant unwavering pure tone on an open string.

You have experienced far too many non-musos, mate!

:-)

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: skipy
Date: 11 May 07 - 08:53 AM

(Which one i'm in depends on which hat i've got on)
Or in my case - dress!
Skipy

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 May 07 - 08:49 AM

And it applies to humpties as well as diddlies. We know Nellie the Elephant by now.

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: LesB
Date: 11 May 07 - 08:49 AM

Which is why, as a rule, musicians are in one pub & singers in another. (Which one i'm in depends on which hat i've got on).
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 May 07 - 08:49 AM

You left out the worst offenders - banjo players, sometimes from Faversham.

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: Stu
Date: 11 May 07 - 08:48 AM

So everybody's got to stop playing and listen intently whilst you sing - why not just go to another session then?

Mind you, I'm crap so my opinion's worth squat.

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 07 - 08:48 AM

We call it "Musical Masturbation".

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 11 May 07 - 08:42 AM

"Less is More"
I have been saying that for years.

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 11 May 07 - 08:41 AM

Just vary the pace and phrasing a bit, leave unexpected pauses between phrases, and drop them off. Leave them looking like the insensitive charlies they can sometimes be.

Subject: RE: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 11 May 07 - 08:35 AM

Blimey!

Subject: A PLEA - Diddly-Dee - GIVE IT A REST!
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 11 May 07 - 08:29 AM

A plea to all you fiddle, accordion, whistle and flute players out there – please have pity on the humble singer-guitarists who attempt to pick up some of the crumbs of time you drop during your endless diddly-dee sessions at festivals around the country. A piece of advice too – the beauty of music often can be expressed perfectly on the basis of a "Less is More" philosophy. At the Moor and Coast festival at Whitby last weekend we witnessed the demolition of a number of beautiful songs by over-bearing metronomically-perfect playing by the sessionists, over the top (round, through and underneath) of the singers.

The voice is THE LEAD INSTRUMENT FOLKS – listen to it, and if you wish to add something to it then please try to do it sympathetically (and at least in the same timing as the singer). Now we do understand that you are familiar with 99% of all the songs and tunes written since the 5th century, but there can be (or at least there would be, given chance) different interpretations of some of them, and a singer might even wish to vary the pace (God forbid) of one or two, just for the creative interesting hell of it.

One other piece of advice – during your "Three Times in D; Six times in G; Thirty seven times in A" musical extravaganza, just take time to lift your heads long enough to see the number of jaws on the floor. Have a little sympathy for members of your audience – and maybe we won't get so many requests from them along the lines of "For F***'S sake – sing something – QUICK!!!"