Tech: Which Laptop to buy????

Subject: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: Pseudolus
Date: 16 May 07 - 01:06 PM

My daughter is going to College next year and for her high school graduation we are going to get her a laptop. I've been searching and shopping for weeks and here's what I've narrowed it down to. I'd like to get her a laptop with an AMD Turion 64 X2 processor but I'm gonna spend more money than if I settle for an Intel Pentium Core Duo processor. Is the AMD Turion that much better? Most of the web sites I've found seem to think so and the reason is longevity as more and more software will be coming out as 64 bit software. Also, the scholl has recommended HP over Dell or Toshiba. Anybody have any thoughts or experience????

Thanks
Frank

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: Pseudolus
Date: 16 May 07 - 01:07 PM

Oops, should this be in the BS section? Please feel free to move it if it should...

Frank

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 May 07 - 01:14 PM

In UK , Dell has not got a very good reputation for After Sales . Other than that , as a 'puter illiterate I cant help you .

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 16 May 07 - 01:29 PM

Oh anything but Dell..we have had the most awful experience with them at work...beyond belief....and people I have known with them at home have also had bad luck. What I have read about Toshibas sounds good but I am no expert. But I am an expert on how bad Dells are and one of my missions in life is to spread the word. mg

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: pyewacket
Date: 16 May 07 - 02:08 PM

Dear Pseudolus:
   I have a good friend who has a computer repair and build business. Earlier this year I decide to buy a laptop through him for my wife. His recomendations were as follows: IBM or Lenovo which builds for IBM but now sells also under their own name, Toshiba, and Acer. I bought the Acer because I procrastinated and missed a Toshiba that I liked. He claims that all three are excellent machines and my wife very much likes her Acer.
   He has repaired a lot of Dell machines and is very disappointed in the longevity of hard drives and other components. Some parts are proprietary and can only be purchased from Dell. He finds their service and their technical assistance to be unsatisfactory.

Hope this may help.

pyewacket.

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 07 - 02:13 PM

I've never used anything but Macs and can't recommend them enough. Mac users groups plus applecare bring far more support and help than you'll get for any PC; Macs are also virtually virus proof. OS X is very stable and saves your work if a programme crashes--essential for essay and project crises. They can also now trade documents with PCs perfectly now. Check out Apple;s edicational discount. (No, apple doesnt opay me or give me a commission, but I've been a mac user since 1986 and the times I've had to use a PC at work it'sconvinced me that it'snot just a matter of style but substance.

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 16 May 07 - 02:15 PM

Laptops are pretty much a commodity item these days, not really expected to live more than a couple of years, and obsolesce by then anyway. Most laptops will only accept proprietary parts (unless you go for PCMCIA or USB add-ons, in which case the platform itself machts nichts). We use Thinkpads at work, they're fine & dandy, if pricy. My only experience with Toshibas is from a long time ago, and they were crap. My kids both have Dells and have had no problems with them (son is finishing his Sophomore year so has had his Laptop 2 years, daughter's had hers one year). We've had HP desktops for them in the house and I've been less than highly impressed with them, but they're old now anyway. Depending on how much faith you have in the university's "computer store" - and what kind of service they offer, what arrangements they have with manufacturers, etc. it might not hurt to go with their notions. On the other hand, they may be recommending a particular brand because they get the best margin on it. Hard to say for sure.

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: Mooh
Date: 16 May 07 - 02:49 PM

Good idea. I chose an Acer for myself and my kid who's just finished second year at the U of Ottawa. So far she's thrilled with hers as I am with mine. AMD Turion 64x2 (1.6 GHz, 2x256KB L2 cache)

Get the best and most applicable you can afford. Like cars, they're obsolete before the bank accepts the cheque, but the student needs good, not adequate.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 May 07 - 03:15 PM

Lenovo T61 has high reviews. They seem to have a bit of a sale on now from their website.
This is the one I would go for, but my daughter says no one can beat MAC. Not all Windows programs can be run on MAC; her husband uses the 'Gates' because some programs used by businesses he consults with can't be run on MAC.
It is a simple matter to contact the college to find out if all their programs and information are compatable with MAC.

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 May 07 - 03:40 PM

I have had a Dell laptop for about 3 years (and am on my third Dell desktop). I've had no major problems with the laptop, other than a user-interface issue...and it worked fine after the wine in the keyboard dried out.

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: GUEST,Qtwf
Date: 16 May 07 - 04:30 PM

Hiya,

It's probably not appropriate, but I have done lots of corporate AV work which involves plugging other peoples laptops into our projectors and hoping they play nice!

Toshibas have always been really good at this, Compaq - now HP - good but weird if you need to change settings, Sony good but often overpriced.

Having said that, I'm on my third Sony Vaio laptop, and I love them, although you need to open them up and blow the dust out every so often, or I do in the building site I live in!

Cheers,

Qtwf

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 May 07 - 04:40 PM

Just curious--does anyone have a Toshiba Libretto that they're interested in selling?

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: astro
Date: 16 May 07 - 05:01 PM

It really depends upon the type of work she is going to do in college...is it graphical, analysis, or just word processing and email?

I've had both pc based laptops (dell) and apples...I like the apples well above the dells...though get the extended warranty. They occasionally have trouble with power supplies...with the warranty they replace everything affected...

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 May 07 - 05:14 PM

If the school makes a recommendation, it usually is a good idea to give a lot of weight to what they say you should get. I'm not terribly impressed with HP, especially since the merge/mangle with Compaq; but it will be critical that a student laptop be 100% compatible with the school network.

If the Prof/Dean who manages the net happens to use and like something weird, everybody needs to live with the weird. Many university networks rely on "homebrew" programs that may be written by the prof in charge of a class, and some of these "interfaces" can have peculiar compatibility problems. It's probably less common at larger universities; but it still happens that an individual class requires you to conform to the prof - not to universally accepted cross-platform IT practices.

Mac laptops are good, but it is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE that they're "invulnerable to viruses." They're less bothered since they're not prevalent enough¹ to be very interesting to virus creators; but the patches MAC has issued covertly and without publicity are almost exactly the same in kind as ones Windows machines have been installing for years. It is also "not quite true" that documents can be ported back and forth 100% between Mac and Win machines. There are a few differences between the Windows fonts and Mac same-named fonts that can produce individual character dropouts, and there are some formatting devices used in wordprocessors for both that DO NOT transport well. Compatibility is good, but 100% is little too much to claim.

¹ There's also the tendency for Mac users to be professionals who don't do "student type" file downloads and internet yakfests, so a fairly large percentage of Macs have been less exposed to virus attacks, leaving a very small pool of "vulnerable" Mac users - not worth the bother except to a fellow student with a Mac.

The AMD laptop processors have had a power level advantage over recent Intel ones, but the newest laptop versions of the Core 2 Duo chip may have reversed that. Intel Centrino gives one of the most recent Intel brags.

While 64-bit processing is - maybe - the coming thing, it's unlikely that a laptop purchased now or in the next few months will benefit from it now or will last long enough ever to make much use of it. Both WinXP and Vista 64-bit versions, and the programs available for them, lack features that will be a benefit for most users, and are considered suitable only for servers. Available 64-bit software is "stripped" of user features in order to emphasize server performance. A good multi-processor (Core 2 etc.) machine probably is a better choice for a new student; but if you're really concerned about this, I'd say ask the university before you allow it to make a big impact on your decision.

A fairly recent market survey reported that HP, Dell and Toshiba are NOT the leading laptop makers, but are the leading laptop sellers. All available laptops are actually made by a small group of "ODM" (Original Device Manufacturer?) makers who paste the sellers' logos on. Any seller can change ODM suppliers, for a new model or within the run of an existing one. It is thus nearly impossible to tell who built the one you buy, and any two competing OEM products may actually be made by the same ODM builder. The support provided by an OEM seller can be important, but can vary a lot with where you're located and what means of contact are available.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 07 - 08:57 PM

Dell

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 16 May 07 - 09:48 PM

Why the preference for a laptop?
The unfriendly ergonomic design of any laptop computer makes them the best friend of the osteopath or chiropractor. Much of my business as an osteopath comes from users of laptop machines.
The keyboards are too small and are placed in the wrong position for typing, which is what a student will do most. They are placed inboard of the touchpad or mouse-mover, which means that wrists have to be held too far away from the body, leading to repetetive strain injury.
Also the screens are too low, causing the head to be lowered to look down. This causes strain to the neck and shoulder muscles. The screen on any computer shopuld be at eye level.
Considering that the student is most unlikely to need to use the computer in any place other than his/her accommodation then a deasktop would be more than adequate, cheaper and, should the occasion arise, more easily repaired.

Colyn.

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 16 May 07 - 09:48 PM

Recently I was about to purchase a Dell laptop (in Canada)
I was asked by the call centre sales person if I had any intention of "taking the computer out of the country?" I asked why she considered that to be "any of her business? " I was told that Dell computers could not be taken to certain countries such as Cuba because they could be used to make "weapons of mass destruction." She said that the question was a legal requirement. I asked her where she was located and was told Ottawa. I said that there is no such law in Canada and that she should consult her supervisor, because I would not answer her question. Her supervisor told her that if I did not answer they would not sell to me. I stated that I was much more concerned about an idiot like Bush having such weapons than I was about Castro.
I bought a Toshiba instead but I found it insulting that Dell would try to enforce USA trading with the enemy garbage in a soverign country.

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 May 07 - 10:01 PM

Both my wife and I have HP Pavilion zv5000s. AMD Athlon 64 processors, 1GB RAM, 80GB hard drives, with both CD/DVD player/burners and floppy drives, and they're both set up for wireless, which is how we access the internet. We've had them for over two years now and never had a problem that involved the hardware. They've both proven to be solid and reliable. I don't think this particular model is still available, but similar ones are.

This model might be a bit hefty for packing around a campus. It was a 15.4" screen (great for watching movies on DVD), and it runs about 9 lbs. But HP has other, more portable laptops. Also, and this was a big factor for us, once you pick a basic model, you can customize it. Lots of options.

We bought them on-line, HERE

Good hunting!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 07 - 04:52 AM

As a university teacher, I don't think my students are usually massively advantaged or disadvantaged by just how tip-top their computer is--having one, though, is obviously a big plus. Students' own initiative, hard work and curiosity count a lot!

For a lap top there are some additional considerations you might want to weigh up for effectiveness and peace of mind.
These other considerations would be:
insurance policy, keeping dorm locked, a good back up hard disk or capacity to back up work onto a university system and awareness of the importance of doing this regularly--I can't stress this enough, especially for long projects; compatibility with local printing facilities and network.wifi, guarantee and a service contract to minimize stress and expense of repairs...extra battery pack? good safe carrying bag? surge-protected extension cord? A clear plastic keyboard cover in case of coffee spills?.... Printing at times of high demand can be difficult if a campus has limited printing facilities or rations student print accounts, so perhaps you might want to consider whether to get a printer too and then which--the cost of cartridges and paper is the ongoing expense there. Then ergonomics and avoiding RSI--a good stand or an extra keyboard larger that the laptop is nice too.So maybe plan the whole package of what will work well and be convenient and and trouble free with all those extras factored in.
   Recreational uses of computers can overtake practical ones--that's just life. So music and photo programs.....

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: Pseudolus
Date: 17 May 07 - 02:42 PM

Thanks a lot for all the comments and advice. I'm leaning towards the HP Pavillion with the AMD Turion processor. The MAC doesn't seem to be an option at school, at least not without jumoing through hoops to make it work. A desktop isn't an option either because she will easily be able to come home on weekends so the flexibility to bring it home with her is a big plus. So we have found a pretty good deal on the HP including a 3 year "even if I drop it" warranty. We're also getting her a printer/scanner/copier to save her from having to go to the computer center to get printouts or copies. I forget who's post suggested that but thanks! I can't believe she's already going to College! It feels like we were just bringing her home from the hospital in a snow suit twice her size!!! Time flies!!

Frank

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: concertina ceol
Date: 17 May 07 - 03:20 PM

Just to speak up for DELL I have a AMD Turion 64 x 2 1.6GHz Laptop with 2GB RAM 80GB Hard Disk. Works brilliantly, battery lasts about 5 to 6 hours on a charge. Also have a HP laptop with an Intel processor supplied by work battery lasts about 90 minutes!

If Dell are so poor why do BBC News 24 use them?

But if you are happy with your choice go for it, as someone else said above - laptops have a short life span, 2 to 3 years max - it's not like buying an instrument where you might have it for life!

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 May 07 - 03:25 PM

Of course she may want to take her laptop to class for note taking, but the problem of being able to work during breaks might be easily solved by providing a backup space on one of your computers at home so that she could simply FTP her hard drive contents home and use one of your computers while there.

The university hookup almost certainly will support massive file transfers, although you own home hookup will need to support reasonable transfer rates, and you will want "strong passwords" to protect you home machinery.

That would, of course, mean a need to have any software she may use at the university duplicated on the at-home machine that she would use; however it's common for student versions of rather expensive programs to be available through the universities at very nominal cost.

You would, of course, NEVER be tempted to use "student software" at home for any other purposes ...

A "parental ploy" used by some has actually been to suggest that students attach "the recent/current-day's files" to their regular email home, with parents promising to save the attachments so that there will be a backup copy in case of "computer problems." Some parents even make the "we won't look at it" promise. Of course all students will believe that parents won't look, and the offer probably is redundant as it is well known that they typically are quite diligent at maintaining frequent correspondence¹ with those left at home.

¹ The "parental diligence-assurance rule" is sometimes paraphrased as "never send the kid more than a week's worth of cash."

[now removing tongue from cheek ... ]

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 May 07 - 03:27 PM

Having your own printer is almost a must. I can't visualize being without one. Very reasonable cost nowadays.

I have a mobile hard drive with everything backed on it. I would recommend this as well.

The HP should do just fine. All of them can have problems, so have good coverage. And again, a separate hard drive, kept in a separate safe place when not in use, gives peace of mind.

Oh, yes, that little pad for many people is hard to use; get a good mouse (I like a wireless).

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 17 May 07 - 10:56 PM

Lighter is better and longer battery life matters. She'll be hauling around and may have to take notes several classes between recharges. I travel with a small Toshiba laptop that is considerably lighter than our company-supplied HPs and runs about twice as long on battery.

Get a good bag. She'll use it every day. Get a mouse. Consider a USB TV tuner.
- Phil

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 May 07 - 10:58 PM

HP are now advertising some new kind of "portable pack" large storage portable plug in thingie for desktops here in Aus. Dunno what it is.

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 May 07 - 11:14 PM

BTW, consider an external full size keyboard for use on desk in her room or at home - I used an early "2-ton portable" as my desktop net connector machine for a while as a system admin (the best stuff had to go to the "users"!!!) and the external keyboard made it usable.

You can get "funky" 'roll-up' ones and all sort of other junk - just a 'plug' would be cheap (if the slots are there) but some sort of remote would do - i;d suggest a decent mouse of any size that is comfortable is desirable too.

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 May 07 - 11:57 PM

If you use an external keyboard (which I recommend whenever portability requirements don't prevent it) and want a "real mouse," on some older laptops the external keyboard and external mouse use the same port, even if there are separate connectors. I don't know whether that's still the case for newer ones. If you find that to be true, you may want to substitute a USB mouse.

The "nuisance" touch pad, that sends your cursor to a random place in the document any time you touch the pad while typing, can usually be turned off, but plugging in either an external "standard serial" mouse or external keyboard sometimes forces it to turn back on. (You add a mouse because you want to get rid of the touchpad but the serial mouse doesn't work unless the touchpad is turned on.) If yours works that way, adding a "standard" mouse may force you to use an external keyboard as well (unless you're willing to learn to type with your thumbs pointing at your nose to keep the thumbs off the touch pad while typing). You should be able to add a USB mouse with the touchpad turned off.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 May 07 - 12:08 AM

"on some older laptops the external keyboard and external mouse use the same port, even if there are separate connectors."

I've seen "Y-connectors" for the "PS2-keyboard connector".

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: Rowan
Date: 18 May 07 - 12:53 AM

As a Mac user ever since CP/M was taken over I've rarely been disadvantaged by the turf wars between the platforms and, for years, I've noticed that 90% of the things that 90% of users want to do can be done on quite old versions of both hardware and software. Most of us (especially students) find it difficult to ignore the bells and whistles of endless possibilities though.

But there are some hardware and/or software items that, apparently, only work on things that aren't Macs; without wishing to start diversions into contrary examples, GPS and GIS things come to mind. I am told that the latest Macs, with their Intel Core 2 Duo chpis, are sold with Wondoze XP and can be set up so that Windows is either piggybacked on top of OSX (and able to run most Windows applications as well as the Mac ones) or installed separately with a 'Berlin Wall' between Windows and OSX, so that those Windows programs that do require direct access to the chip (like most GIS software) can run properly. Or you can install Windows in both configurations.

Never having done it or used such a setup, I'd be interested to know the ins and outs of such operations on a laptop.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 May 07 - 02:41 AM

One of the shortcomings of running multiplatforms on Macs, at least so far as I've seen, is that you can run only one OS at a time. If you have programs that you need in more than one platform, that can cause a lot of reboots to swap OSs to get to the other program. I've heard of work on a different setup, but it seems, for now, to be "vaporware."

There can be problems with programs in one OS being unable to read from the partitions containing (an)other OS; but I think there are workarounds for that.

On the other side of the fence, the new Vista can include the ability to create simultaneous Virtual Machines with a separate OS in each VM. Theoretically you can have multiple OSs running simultaneously in separate windows. This capability is included only in a couple of Vista versions, and is NOT in versions most people are likely to buy. It's also a "claimed but undemonstrated" thing as a practical capability so far as my Tech sources have reported.

In either case, you have to buy/license both OSs, and you can probably get a second machine with the "other" OS preinstalled for little more than what a separate OS purchase would cost.

If it's really necessary to get a capability that will make you a lot of money, it's worth considering perhaps.

If you just want something to impress the boys at the bar, go to the nearest discounter and buy a picture frame. Take the picture out and wrinkle it up a bit and tuck it into your pocket. Tell them it's your new arm candy. - Much more bang for the buck.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 May 07 - 10:34 AM

I have a friend who is a 'tech guru' - writing SW so that tractors can plough fields without needing human drivers, or something like that.... and he has Virtual Vista on Linux.

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 May 07 - 04:27 PM

Virtual Machine (VM) methods are one of the newer "buzz words" and lots of people are using them. VM methods are available on all the major platforms, including some of the specialty "Industrial Strength" ones that we mortal seldom hear of. Where there's a real requirement, and VM methods can be set up, tested, implemented, and professionally maintained, they're proving "useful" in quite a few places.

With Mac, so far as I've seen, you can run a VM to have Windows "runable" on the Mac machine; but it's closer to a multi-boot setup than to what the big boys talk about, since you can only have one OS at a time running. For the big boys, VM means running another OS in a VM within and at the same time as the "principal OS" that you're using.

I don't pay enough attention to 'Nix developments to know how common simultaneous virtualization may be, especially among individual users. Vista claims it, but "it's not in the version you bought so you need to $u$p$g$r$a$d4e$ to ...."

John

Subject: RE: Tech: Which Laptop to buy????
From: redsnapper
Date: 18 May 07 - 04:46 PM

I currently have an HP with 1 Giga RAM and AMD Sempron.

It has been returned under warrantee and I believe there is a problem with memory catching on the chipset which seems to be systemic.

No problems with the Dell Latitude I had before which is still going strong.

RS