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BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film

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BACK HOME IN DERRY
JOE MCDONNEL
THE WOMAN CRIED
THERE WERE ROSES
YOUR DAUGHTERS AND YOUR SONS


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Keith A of Hertford 02 May 09 - 05:46 AM
GUEST,jjjjjjem 14 Dec 08 - 04:52 PM
GUEST,fredbert 28 Oct 08 - 05:46 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Oct 08 - 04:13 PM
Jean(eanjay) 28 Oct 08 - 01:32 PM
Den 16 Oct 08 - 03:54 PM
Jean(eanjay) 29 Sep 08 - 01:03 PM
goatfell 27 Sep 08 - 08:41 AM
GUEST,Cannes the can 26 Sep 08 - 04:06 PM
GUEST,Cannes the can 26 Sep 08 - 02:48 PM
Jean(eanjay) 02 Sep 08 - 10:03 AM
Jean(eanjay) 19 Jun 08 - 04:04 AM
RobbieWilson 18 Jun 08 - 06:24 PM
Jean(eanjay) 18 Jun 08 - 09:11 AM
Jean(eanjay) 18 Jun 08 - 08:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 08 - 08:27 AM
GUEST,Giveitarest 18 Jun 08 - 07:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 08 - 07:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 08 - 07:36 AM
GUEST,Observer 18 Jun 08 - 07:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 08 - 07:06 AM
GUEST,Observer 18 Jun 08 - 06:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Jun 08 - 04:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 08 - 08:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Jun 08 - 08:01 AM
GUEST,Observer 17 Jun 08 - 07:38 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Jun 08 - 04:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 08 - 04:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 08 - 02:28 PM
Big Al Whittle 16 Jun 08 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,Observer 16 Jun 08 - 01:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 08 - 08:02 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Jun 08 - 07:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Jun 08 - 03:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Jun 08 - 02:48 AM
GUEST,Mike S. 15 Jun 08 - 05:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Jun 08 - 05:05 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Jun 08 - 04:04 PM
ard mhacha 15 Jun 08 - 02:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 08 - 07:25 AM
GUEST,Observer 14 Jun 08 - 07:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Jun 08 - 01:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jun 08 - 06:46 PM
Big Al Whittle 13 Jun 08 - 02:41 PM
Stu 13 Jun 08 - 12:20 PM
Big Al Whittle 13 Jun 08 - 10:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 08 - 10:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jun 08 - 10:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Jun 08 - 09:38 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Jun 08 - 08:50 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 09 - 05:46 AM

A new film about the troubles may be of interest.
5o Dead Men Walking about Martin McCartland.
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/film/article5982359.ece


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,jjjjjjem
Date: 14 Dec 08 - 04:52 PM

i saw that movie a few days ago, it was the most boring load of crap i have ever seen. bobby sands got what he deserved, a slow and painfull death


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,fredbert
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 05:46 PM

Bobby Sands died to perpetuate murder, he committed suicide by starving in the belief that others would come onto the streets of N.Ireland and carry on his terrorists organisation murders.

His brother in-law has been named as the leader of the RIRA, who insistently try to murder people in Ireland, that is the legacy of Sands,he was really committed in his quest for death.

The film was pure propaganda and I say that using the dictionary definition, that is    1. Information that is spread for the purpose of promoting some cause.

When we see the prison officer being brutally murdered in front of innocent people including his mother who was covered in her sons blood, there was no pause for thought for the victim or the bystanders.

When Gandhi went on hunger strike he did so to end violence Sands done it to perpetuate it. Hardly a hero figure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 04:13 PM

Welcome back to thread Den.
You were saying....
(me)
What are your sources for that Den?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Den - PM
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:16 AM

Fear is a great motivator. Sources? Brian Nelson? You're kidding right? Just google Brian Nelson British agent, should be enlightening. Or Force Reconnaissance Unit, Gordon Kerr. In fact there was a great Panorama programme about this not too long ago. Did you see it? I didn't unfortunately but I have the transcript, made for some very depressing reading.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Den - PM
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:24 AM

Gotta get back to work here will check back this evening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 06 Jun 08 - 09:34 AM

I will try that Den.
And if there is nothing about targetting individual voters, you will retract right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 01:32 PM

I haven't seen it yet but am still determined although I will find the brutality hard to watch. It has 7 nominations at the British Independent Film Awards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Den
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 03:54 PM

I watched the film the other night. I felt that it fit very well with my perceptions of the Maize/Long Kesh at the time. As for the boredom comment. Isn't that really a moot point. I think that's what McQueen was trying to get across. Can you imagine what it was like trapped in a 4 x 6 concrete room for 24 hours a day? The brutality portrayed in the movie was very much in keeping with what I'd heard from people who had actually been there. Anyway check it out at the end of the month. It opens in Belfast this weekend...that should be interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:03 PM

The film is due for release on 31 October. There is a link to the trailer here .

Popcorn and matchsticks for the eyelids for this one.

Love it, made me smile but it won't put me off watching :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: goatfell
Date: 27 Sep 08 - 08:41 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,Cannes the can
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 04:06 PM

Even dialogue ! Sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,Cannes the can
Date: 26 Sep 08 - 02:48 PM

If you're eager to see the film "Hunger" which tells the story of Bobby Sands and the 1981 Hunger-strike your in for something of a disappointment. Although the level of acting is excellent, the film lacks dialect and the long spells of silence is boring (five minutes spent watching a spider walking around the actors finger).

Popcorn and matchsticks for the eyelids for this one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:03 AM

Gucci Group award


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 19 Jun 08 - 04:04 AM

I haven't, but it is going to be shown on channel 4 later this year so I'll watch it then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:24 PM

437 posts. Has anyone here seen the film yet?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 09:11 AM

Perhaps I should have indicated that it was the Sydney Film Festival's first international competition that the film won last night just in case people don't want to be bothered with the link.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:36 AM

another festival prize win

Taken from the above link:

His winning film is a visually striking drama about the intense conflict between guards and IRA prisoners, which led to the death of a hunger striker, Bobby Sands, in 1981.


A jury headed by the Australian director Gillian Armstrong chose Hunger as winner of the 12-film competition that has run at the festival over the past 12 days.

The film's producer, Laura Hastings-Smith, accepted the trophy, which is affectionately dubbed the Blue Pavlova.

Armstrong said the jury's decision was unanimous.

"Hunger was selected for its controlled clarity of vision, its extraordinary detail and bravery, the dedication of its cast and the power and resonance of its humanity," she said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 08:27 AM

Consider also the Republican group, Belfast Citizen's Defence Committee.
They had 50,000 people sign a "call for peace", and hoped that the Provisionals would respect the wishes of the people and stop bombing and shooting. (1972)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,Giveitarest
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:46 AM

At least there's one thing you do have in common.......You're a pair of bollocks!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:44 AM

They were just ordinary, flawed folk who found themselves caught up in events.
They never asked for it, and in the end were overwhelmed by it all.
As I said, their arguments had huge support from the Nationalist people.
You should say why those thousands of people were wrong, and why they should have followed the likes of you instead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:36 AM

You should try to counter the ARGUMENT, not smear the person.
You have done the same with my arguments throughout.
Ignored them and tried to discredit me instead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:22 AM

Williams and Corrigan resigned their positions in the peace movement two years after they formed it.There is still a lot of anger at the fact they both received a healthy handshake with their award. They promised they would put ALL the money into their Communities (it never happened, neither community they came from received a brass penny from either women). By 1980 they had become estranged,slagging eachother off in public. In 1982 Williams divorced her husband of many years after a string of affairs and married a wealthy younger man and moved to Florida in the United States.She said she would never return to Ireland (a lot wished she would).

Fine examples Keith A. You really know how to source your facts !


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:06 AM

I do not, and never have defended it.
Just adding perspective.
I would not even go as far as Mairead Corrigan and Betty Williams, who said,"We do not equate the vicious and determined terrorism of the republican and loyalist paramilitary organisations with the occasional instances when members of the security forces may have stepped beyond the rule of law."
(Nationalist founders of the Peace movement. 20,000 demonstrating in support in Belfast and same in Dublin even before protestants began to join.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 06:52 AM

Defence of British army murder of the innocent in the North of Ireland courtesy of one eyed Keith A.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Jun 08 - 04:15 AM

This post shows the army to be responsible for the deaths of less than 80 people who were non combatant or not engaged in crime, irrespective of religeon.
thread.cfm?threadid=91818&messages=457#1754202
Scroll up from the post to see the impeccable source of the data.

Republican paramilitaries were therefor responsible for the deaths of more than FIVE TIMES as many innocent Catholic men, women and children.

But, there were about 20 soldiers to every one volunteer.
So,the average volunteer was ONE HUNDRED TIMES as guilty as the average soldier.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 08:14 AM

Sorry if the table is not very clear.
In brief.
Catholics killed by army 258
Catholics killed by Republican paramilitaries 395


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 08:01 AM

Organisation Total Killings Protestant Catholic Not from NI
IRA          1696 (49%)       790       338      568

British Army 299 (9%)         32       258       9


INLA         110 (3%)          55       33         22


Official IRA 51                7          24         20

The British Army's "murderous campaign against the nationalist people." killed fewer Catholics than your lot did.
And most of those killed by the army were activists.
Most killed by your lot were uninvolved civillians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 07:38 AM

No I don´t vote Sinn Fein,I am a member of Republican Sinn Fein.

Keith A. supported the role of the British army in the North of Ireland and in doing so supported their murderous campaign against the nationalist people.

go maith go mbeidh deacrachtaí romhainn ins an obair seo ar fad agus glacaimid na cúraimí seo orainn le dóchas go mbeidh muintir na hÉireann fial lena gcúnamh mar a bhí i gcónaí.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jun 08 - 04:32 AM

I must say, Observer, that I do tend to agree with Keith on this one. Just saying that something is shite does not make it true. I have not spotted anything particularly anti-republican in Keiths posts on this thread. Anti war, yes. Anti violence, yes. Anti republican, Hmmm? Not convinced. Are there any such examples?

As to the other question. Can I hazzard a guess that Sinn Fein want a united Ireland? Maybe that answers the question as to why they are not well supported in the South? Who in their right minds would want to take on the hot potato that is currently Northern Ireland?

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:20 PM

Observer, here is a positive contribution you can make.
You say you live in the Republic.
Presumably you vote Sinn Fein.
Why do the rest of your countrymen refuse to?
Why is every election in the Republic a disaster for Sinn Fein?
Give us your observations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:28 PM

Observer,
you can not specify any particular shite,
or say why it is shite,
or correct the shite.
What is the point of your "contribution" Observer?
Just shite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:21 PM

takes one to know one, they say........


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 01:25 PM

During the war up North the British media poured out anti republican shite on a daily basis. Seems Keith A carries on their tradition here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 08:02 AM

There would be no point discussing if we all agreed with each other.
Reading the strongly held views of others challenges us to question our own beliefs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 07:14 AM

well maybe the time has come to accept that these blokes disagree with you, keith. Nothing much you can do about it. they disagree. You got your opinion - they got theirs.

Obviously the facts bear a different interpretation - because they have interpreted them differently.

i really don't think this comes down to them being unacquainted with the facts. they just see them differently.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 03:34 AM

I took the view earlier that this discussion was about Bobby Sands and the cause he devoted and gave his life for.
How does the subject of collusion impact on that discussion?
He said and wrote much, but I find no mention of it.
I have argued that the IRA campaign was unnecessary and counter productive the the Nationalists' aims and aspirations.
I would argue that collusion was just another of the evils that flowed in its wake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 02:48 AM

What's poor old Norman done to deserve that?

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,Mike S.
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:51 PM

Someone clever once said that the first casualty in any war is the truth.

Anyway, I blame the Normans for it all..

Mike


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 05:05 PM

There is also evidence of collusion between IRA and Gardai.
Any and all collusion between authorities and paramilitaries was very wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 04:04 PM

And does the collusion of British Intelligence in these bombings make the bombings, by all parties, in which there was no such collusion any better, Ard Mhacha? Does it bring any of the victims back? Does it make anyone feel any better?

Just wondering.

Dave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Jun 08 - 02:18 PM

Worth a read Keith, Magill, September 2002:

The Truth Trickles Out

Mystery has always surrounded the 1974 Dublin and Monaghan bombings. An independent inquiry has been set up to look at the events surrounding the attacks, and the bombing of Dundalk the following year. Donall O Maolfabhail reports on its likely findings.

Earlier this summer, a BBC Panorama programme produced new evidence suggesting that British military intelligence colluded with loyalist paramilitaries in murdering a significant number of people in Northern Ireland. Over the last three years, an independent inquiry established by the Irish government has been investigating whether British military intelligence colluded in the murder of citizens of this state also. This inquiry - headed by Judge Barron - is expected to publish its report later this autumn. The findings of Barron's report are likely to put the government under intense pressure to set up a full judicial inquiry, similar to the Saville inquiry into Bloody Sunday, to ascertain the whole truth about these matters.

There has long been a suspicion that British military intelligence, as part of its war against the IRA, either directly engaged in carrying out a number of bombings and assassinations in the Republic of Ireland, or at least colluded with loyalists in so doing. According to this analysis, the assassinations were aimed at eliminating key republican figures, while the bombings were psychological operations aimed at putting pressure on the southern establishment to adopt more repressive measures.

The Barron inquiry, formerly known as the Hamilton inquiry, was set up in 1999 at the behest of Justice for the Forgotten - the organisation which represents the families of the victims of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. On the day of the bombings in 1974, 33 people lost their lives and many more were injured. The bombing of Dundalk, which took place in December 1975, and in which two people were killed, was also added to Barron's terms of reference.

The powers of the Barron inquiry are quite limited, however. It does not have the power to subpoena and so is entirely dependent on voluntary co-operation. It appears that the judge has received co-operation from the Garda and the PSNI, with the exception of Special Branch. But on 24 April last, the Taoiseach stated that "the material [that] came from the British files, in actual fact, that was limited enough."

This situation has since improved to some degree, but the judge is still thought to be dissatisfied with the level of co-operation from the British security services. For all that, Magill understands that the inquiry has obtained strong new evidence that would indicate at least a willingness on the part of certain sections of the British military to engage in grave undercover actions.

A security memo for the British government in 1971 - now in the hands of the Barron inquiry - points out that the IRA is operating at a very high level of intensity and that the border is practically open. It states that in order for Britain to gain full control of the border, an additional 18 to 29 battalions would be required. This would mean withdrawing troops from other parts of the world, which would be embarrassing for Britain within NATO. The memo therefore outlines three other options as to how the British Army should proceed. The best of these is felt to be the final one - that existing restraints on the operations of British forces should be removed. This, the memo states, would include an intensification of border operations. Any cross-border actions would have come under the heading of border operations. The first car bomb south of the border that was attributed to loyalists exploded on 13 May 1972, six months later. There was one fatality. In fact, almost half of the fatal loyalist car bombs that occurred in the 70s happened between May 1972 and January 1973. It is worth noting that during the same period Chief of Staff Major General Thomas O'Carroll of the Irish Army sent a memo to the then Minister for Defence, Gerry Cronin, stating that dealing with the possibility of "incursions into the Republic by organised security forces or partisan (i.e. loyalist) elements from Northern Ireland.... would require an increase in military strength and more border patrols."

The bombs that went off in Dublin and Monaghan in 1974 were among the worst atrocities of the Troubles. Yet confusion has always reigned over who was responsible for them. David Ervine, one-time UVF member and now leader of the PUP, stated to BBC journalist Peter Taylor some years ago that the UVF was responsible for the bombings. Submissions made to the Barron inquiry by well-placed sources and seen by Magill would seem to confirm that both UVF and UDA members were involved.

However, Magill has also learned that a former senior member of the British Army, who was serving in Northern Ireland at the time, has told Judge Barron that he believes loyalists could not have carried out the Dublin and Monaghan bombings on their own. Rather, he believes it was a sophisticated effort by the British military.

The circumstances of the 1974 attack, and the bomb technology used, meant that allegations of collusion were made long before the Barron inquiry began its work. It is understood that a British soldier, who was on duty not far from the border on the night of the bombings, has told the Barron inquiry that his unit got no instructions to take any action that night. The normal course of action after such an incident would be that NI Army Command HQ would instruct all brigade headquarters to seal the border.

As far as technology goes, Captain Fred Holroyd, who was stationed in Portadown in 1974, has stated that "loyalists mainly used Double Diamond kegs, beer kegs filled with explosives with a black powder fuse. They were pretty primitive" Lieutenant Colonel George Styles, formerly head of the British Army's bomb disposal network worldwide, and who served in Northern Ireland from 1969-72, concurs with this view.

"I don't think they were at a level that would equate to the sort of techniques that were used here in Dublin." This view has also been supported by Commandant Patrick Trears, who in 1974 was the Irish Army's main bomb disposal expert, and by former Garda Commissioner Eamon Doherty.

Allegations of collusion have long hung over other incidents being investigated by Barron. In December 1972, two bombs exploded in Dublin. Two months later, it emerged that Garda Special Branch had information that connected two men who stayed in the Belgravia Hotel in Belfast with the bombings. Both men used false passports and are still wanted in the Republic in connection with the bombings.

There were other incidents where British military collusion was suspected.

On 1 May 1976, a Co Louth man, Seamus Ludlow, was found shot dead at Culmore, near Dundalk. Ludlow is understood to have resembled a senior republican living in the town. James Sharkey, a relative of Ludlow's, now claims he has been told by the RUC that two of his killers were UDR men, but since the crime happened in the Republic, it is up to the Garda to pursue them.

John Francis Greene, a top IRA commander from North Armagh, was killed on a farm outside Castleblaney in Co Monaghan on 10 January 1975. At the time the IRA was on ceasefire. Ruairi Ó Brádaigh, then leader of Sinn Fein, claims that this assassination had a huge bearing on the breakdown of that ceasefire six days later. Raymond Murray, author of The SAS in Ireland believes "that MI5 did not like this truce, as it thought the IRA was using it as a shield to regroup, and they arranged to kill Greene." It wasn't until two months later, on 18 March, that the UVF claimed responsibility for the murder. But in 1999, John Weir, a former RUC officer, named a member of the UDR along with loyalist paramilitaries including Robin 'The Jackal' Jackson as being behind the murder.

Speaking to the Dail on 24 April last, the Taoiseach stated that the Barron Report would, when completed, be submitted to the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights. It will be for the members of that committee to then determine whether a more comprehensive inquiry should be set up - the terms of reference of the Barron inquiry do not allow Judge Barron to recommend a public inquiry. Magill understands that the finished report will at least allude to the identities of the various loyalists suspected of involvement in the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. It is also expected to be fairly critical of both the Garda and the RUC. As for the final issue of a British military role in the bombings, Barron is unlikely to be conclusive.

However, according to the Taoiseach, the judge will "assess and comment in his report on the co-operation he has received from the various authorities with which he has been in contact." In the case of the so far limited co-operation received from the British, Judge Barron is expected not to shy away from drawing adverse inferences. Magill understands that his comments in this regard alone might well be enough to persuade the committee to support the setting-up of a full judicial inquiry.

If British military intelligence did collude in the murder of citizens of this state, one can rest assured that there are a significant number of people who will be anxious for the truth never to see the light of day. They may yet be disappointed


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:25 AM

"rubbish"
You have not quite got the hang of this debating thing have you.
My opinion is identical to that of NICRA and SDLP which, during the
armed campaign, had between them the support of an overwhelming majority of the Nationalist people of Northern Ireland.

Re cross border incursions, I remember one incident where an SAS team was arrested in the Republic.
They claimed to be lost.I agree that is suspicious.
I really am not aware of "many a military incursion into my country to murder and capture Northern republicans."
Please supply evidence.

IRA units from the Republic regularly and routinely carried out incursions into the North though didn't they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 07:08 AM

Keith A. Your government authorized many a military incursion into my country to murder and capture Northern republicans. They knew it would not trigger immediate military action and often said, "Opps sorry".

Do you not consider these incursions across the border were violating the sovereignty of another country and against international laws and treaties ?

As for your remarks that there was a better way to deal with the problem than an armed campaign, rubbish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:53 AM

It is just a discussion Dave.
Most people like to exchange views on important subjects.

Opponents, you have tried shouting me down and discrediting me.
Now try debating.
Notice how I put my case objectively, and supported it with quotes from an IRA commander, from NICRA, with voting statistics and, when challenged that I had never addressed an issue, with old posts to show I had.

It is as if you are not used to your beliefs being challenged.
Perhaps, where you come from, that was not a healthy thing to do.

Try something like this:
Keith, I think you are wrong because....
or: Keith, a major flaw in your argument is...
or: I believe that IRA was a force for good because...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 06:46 PM

Your right, WLD, and it that vindictiveness that I can't get my head round. The real protagonists stopped fighting years ago. Why are the armchair soldiers still doing it here? And I am part of the problem as well. I am attracted to the fight like people are to an RTA. I think I may be able to do some good but I should know better. I do hope I have given some people food for thought though.

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 02:41 PM

yes indeed people are a problem.. If there weren't any people, particularly those we disagreed with....why, there would be peace on earth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Stu
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 12:20 PM

"Oh, almost forgot Stigweard, care to give us your run down on what the result would have been if that British Army and the Emergency Services hadn't been there:"

Teribus - people like you are part of the problem.

I've had enough. No more Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:55 AM

with the best will in the world dave - its vindictive.

both sides referring to the others soldiers as low life thugs. both breaking out into abuse.

little is being said in the way of debate - its just a tedious duet of angry sneering and smearing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:33 AM

It is 3 days since I asked him to explain what makes me a "bigot".

No explanation is going to come Dave because, as you know, these are false accusations.
Lies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:29 AM

It's getting very close, Keith but I am still operating on the basis that a lot of things here are being said in anger. I don't think, as yet, that anything personaly vindictive has been used although if it was directed at me I may see it a different way. Let us see if any explanations are given.

Cheers

Dave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 09:38 AM

Good call Dave.

Looking back at your list, you include Observer among those who have not lost your respect.
Have you noticed that he has not, and presumably can not, challenge anything that I have ever said.
Instead he makes things up about me.
Is that respectable?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jun 08 - 08:50 AM

And I claim page 9!

:D


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