Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9]


BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film

DigiTrad:
BACK HOME IN DERRY
JOE MCDONNEL
THE WOMAN CRIED
THERE WERE ROSES
YOUR DAUGHTERS AND YOUR SONS


Related threads:
Chords Req: O'Hara, Hughes, McCreesh and Sands (10)
folk radio - Colum Sands (11)
ADD: Whatever You Say, Say Nothing (Colum Sands) (41)
Lyr Req: songs by Tommy Sands (67)
Add: Don't Call Me Early in the Morning (TSands?) (6)
Lyr Req: Let the Circle Be Wide (Tommy Sands) (12)
ADD Come Lay Your Bundle Down (Tommy Sands) (8)
Lyr Req/Add: County Down (Tommy Sands) (17)
2018 Obit: Rosaleen Sands (Ireland) (3)
Lyr Add: Almost Every Circumstance (Colum Sands) (53)
Chords: Your Daughters and Your Sons (6)
Bobby Sands (130)
Chords:Down Among the Bushes of Jerusalem-T.Sands (11)
Bobby Sands, IRA and The Sands Family (26)
Lyr ADD: The Note That Lingers On (Colum Sands) (5)
Lyr/Chords Req: Shadow of O'Casey (Tommy Sands) (17)
Lyr Add: The Music of Healing (Tommy Sands) (4)
Lyr Req: One of These Days (Colum Sands) (3)
(origins) Origins: Back Home In Derry (5)
Colum Sands - Gigs in UK ? (8)
Lyr ADD: Goodbye John Joe (Ben Sands) (9)
Sands Family (5)
Lyr Req: heart's a wonder? / Music of Healing (14)
Who was Bobby Sands? (86)
Tune Req: Farewell to the Town (Ben Sands) (3)
Lyr ADD: Directions (Colum Sands) (5)
Announce: Colum Sands (6)
Colum Sands at The Cricketers (4)
Where's Tommy Sands? (8)
Celtic Colours - Tommy Sands (11)
Lyr Req: The Marching Song (Colum Sands) (15)
Lyr Req: Lookin' the Loan of a Spade (Colum Sands) (9)
Sands Family (6)
Lyr ADD: Last House on Our Street (Colum Sands) (6)
Lyr req: seven days are in the week (answered) (6) (closed)
Lyr Add: McIlhatton (Bobby Sands) (2)
Lyr/Chords ADD: The Man with the Cap (Colum Sands) (7)
Lyr Req: All the Little Children (Sands Family) (4)


Big Mick 19 May 07 - 02:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 May 07 - 03:13 PM
InOBU 19 May 07 - 10:14 PM
InOBU 19 May 07 - 10:24 PM
InOBU 19 May 07 - 10:29 PM
guitar 20 May 07 - 03:50 AM
guitar 20 May 07 - 04:18 AM
guitar 20 May 07 - 06:25 AM
guitar 20 May 07 - 06:27 AM
InOBU 20 May 07 - 07:25 AM
guitar 20 May 07 - 07:31 AM
guitar 20 May 07 - 07:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 May 07 - 07:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 May 07 - 08:12 AM
GUEST,An Irishman 20 May 07 - 05:25 PM
Jean(eanjay) 20 May 07 - 05:50 PM
InOBU 20 May 07 - 08:26 PM
GUEST 21 May 07 - 03:12 AM
GUEST,devonshireee 21 May 07 - 03:16 AM
Declan 21 May 07 - 03:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 May 07 - 03:57 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 May 07 - 05:37 AM
InOBU 21 May 07 - 08:14 AM
GUEST,scurvy 21 May 07 - 08:56 AM
Folk Form # 1 21 May 07 - 08:56 AM
GUEST,ib48 21 May 07 - 09:00 AM
Shaneo 21 May 07 - 09:30 AM
GUEST 21 May 07 - 10:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 May 07 - 11:19 AM
GUEST,ib48 21 May 07 - 11:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 May 07 - 11:23 AM
GUEST,ib48 21 May 07 - 11:28 AM
GUEST,sinky 21 May 07 - 11:31 AM
Shaneo 21 May 07 - 11:35 AM
GUEST,ib48 21 May 07 - 11:49 AM
Teribus 21 May 07 - 11:52 AM
InOBU 21 May 07 - 01:42 PM
InOBU 21 May 07 - 01:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 May 07 - 04:24 PM
Teribus 21 May 07 - 05:15 PM
InOBU 21 May 07 - 05:22 PM
InOBU 21 May 07 - 05:46 PM
Teribus 22 May 07 - 01:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 May 07 - 02:09 AM
InOBU 22 May 07 - 06:58 AM
GUEST 22 May 07 - 08:27 AM
GUEST 22 May 07 - 10:03 AM
Big Mick 22 May 07 - 10:09 AM
InOBU 22 May 07 - 10:24 AM
Teribus 22 May 07 - 10:38 AM

Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum Child
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 May 07 - 02:34 PM

Keith, the point is that scorekeeping isn't appropriate right now. Each side is steeped in their convictions, each can pull out stories of the horrendous behaviour of the other. The parties have decided to go the appropriate route. Did you ever, in your entire lifetime, think you would see Paisley and McGuinness together? Now is the time to stop the stories and let the politics work thier cure.

Mick


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 May 07 - 03:13 PM

We can agree on that Mick.
Let's hope for better times.
Keith.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: InOBU
Date: 19 May 07 - 10:14 PM

Well, friends, I will tell you why I think this is an important time for such a film. The US and Britain are once again using torture in prisons in order to spark what they hoped would be a controllable war, as they did in Ireland, for reasons about which they are telling untruths.

The war in Ireland was to keep NATO forces on the soil of a non aligned nation, and as soon as the USSR broke up, and Ireland put aside neutrality in the first gulf war, suddenly, Britain found they could negotiate with the IRA.

Bobby Sands was not political, until he was dragged from his job, when his Protestant fellow workers found he was Catholic, and knifed him. He went to the police and was told, you should not have worked in a Protestant's job.

Bobby Sands was no terrorist. In fact, every time the British government tried to make the point in a neutral court, in Geneva or the US, they failed. We toss about the term terrorist so that the world can fight wars designed by sociopaths the like of George Bush and Paul Wolfowitz.

The hunger strike came about because the conditions in British jails in Ireland made Abu Greb look civilized. You toss terms around like ignorant and insults. Well, friends if you had seen the inside of the Maidstone and the Maze, well, few of you would have called those who opposed such inhumanity ignorant, unless you were driven by the same prejudice which guided so many in Ireland. Don't ask me, seek out members of the Troops Out movement, British soldiers who saw too much, ask Frank Holroid... well, it is whistling in the wind ... there is little one can say to the patriot, who will follow the guns into a gave for the benefit of a government who in the end, laughs at him all the way to the bank.

I had the great honnor of knowing Bobby Sands' cell mate, Tony O'Hara, whose brother died on hunger strike as well. Sands was a remarkable young man, and a loss to the formation of Ireland's future. Those who ask why he had guns, might well ask, why your government brought the guns your tax money bought into Ireland?

Is mise, le meas,
Lorcan Otway


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: InOBU
Date: 19 May 07 - 10:24 PM

PS If you wonder why Member of Parliament Robert Sands had guns in his house, I could tell you about 800 years of Irish history, I could tell you about Bloody Sunday, I could tell you even about Jillianwalla Bahd... but instead, watch the scene in Casablanca when the nazis are singing in Rick's place, and everyone begins to sing the La Marseillaise

Let's go children of the fatherland,
The day of glory has arrived!
Against us tyranny's
Bloody flag is raised! (repeat)
In the countryside, do you hear
The roaring of these fierce soldiers?
They come right to our arms
To slit the throats of our sons, our friends!
Refrain

Grab your weapons, citizens!
Form your batallions!
Let us march! Let us march!
May impure blood
Water our fields!
          
        
This horde of slaves, traitors, plotting kings,
What do they want?
For whom these vile shackles,
These long-prepared irons? (repeat)

Frenchmen, for us, oh! what an insult!
What emotions that must excite!
It is us that they dare to consider 
Returning to ancient slavery!What!
These foreign troops
Would make laws in our home!
What! These mercenary phalanxes
Would bring down our proud warriors! (repeat)
Good Lord! By chained hands
Our brows would bend beneath the yoke!
Vile despots would become
The masters of our fate! Tremble, tyrants!
and you, traitors,
The disgrace of all groups,
Tremble! Your parricidal plans
Will finally pay the price! (repeat)

Everyone is a soldier to fight you,
If they fall, our young heros,
France will make more,
Ready to battle you!Frenchmen, as magnanimous warriors,
Bear or hold back your blows!
Spare these sad victims,
Regretfully arming against us. (repeat)
But not these bloodthirsty despots,
But not these accomplices of Bouillé,
All of these animals who, without pity,
Tear their mother's breast to pieces!
Sacred love of France,
Lead, support our avenging arms!

Liberty, beloved Liberty,
Fight with your defenders! (repeat)
Under our flags, let victory
Hasten to your manly tones!
May your dying enemies
See your triumph and our glory!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: InOBU
Date: 19 May 07 - 10:29 PM

PPS I might add, what Robert Sands M.P. fought for, was fought for for quite awhile... here is another anthem for you...

A Soldier's Song

Soldiers are we,
whose lives are pledged to Ireland
Some have come from a land beyond the wave,
Sworn to be free,
no more our ancient sireland
Shall shelter the despot or the slave;
tonight we man the Bearna Baoghal
In Erin's cause.
come woe or weal;
'Mid cannon's roar and rifle's peal
We'll chant a soldier's song.


We'll sing a song, a soldier's song
With cheering, rousing chorus
As round our blazing fires we thong,
The starry heavens o'er us;
Impatient for the coming fight,
And as we wait the mornings light
here in the silence of the night
We'll sing a soldier's song


CHORUS

In valley green or towering crag
Our fathers fought before us,
And conquered 'neath the same old flag
That's floating o'er us,
We're children of a fighting race
That never yet has known disgrace,
And as we march the foe to face,
We'll sing a soldier's song


CHORUS

Sons of the Gael! Men of the Pale!
The Long watched day is breaking;
The serried ranks of Innisfail
Shall set the tyrant quaking.
Our camp fires now are burning low;
See in the east a silvery glow,
Out yonder waits the saxon foe,
So sing a soldier's song.


Hmmm... Saxon foe... not a lot new in Sands' day.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: guitar
Date: 20 May 07 - 03:50 AM

Oh by the way did you know that Ian Paisley doesn't like loylist or republican terrorist


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: guitar
Date: 20 May 07 - 04:18 AM

you still haven't answered the question WHY DID BOBBY SANDS HAVE GUNS IN HIS HOUSE IF HE WASN'T GOING TO USE THEM? but as I said you lot don't want to give the answer, you're like just politictions (spelling) they don't tell the truth either. but hey why get into a fight, anyway let bygones be bygone and lets live in peace


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: guitar
Date: 20 May 07 - 06:25 AM

here's another song by Eric Bogle

it's called 'my youngest son'

My youngest son came home today
his friends marched with him all the way
the pipes and drums beat out the time as in his box of polished pine
like dead meat on a butcher's tray
my youngest son came home to stay

my youngest son was a fine young man with a wife a daughter and two sons
a man he could of lived a died till by a bullet's sign to fight
now he's a saint or so they say
they brought their saint home today

above the narrow Belfast streets an Irish sky looks down and weeps
as children blood in gutter spilled in dreams of freedom unfilled
as part of freedom's price to pay my youngest son came home to stay

My youngest son came home today
his friends marched with him all the way
the pipes and drums beat out the time as in his box of polished pine
like dead meat on a butcher's tray
my youngest son came home to stay
and this time he's home to stay

That is for all the terrorist groups out there in the world


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: guitar
Date: 20 May 07 - 06:27 AM

But as i said let bygones be bygones and hope that there is real peace in Northern ireland this time now that Ian and Martin are in control of your country,


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: InOBU
Date: 20 May 07 - 07:25 AM

Hi Guitar

I actually did answer your question. He had guns in his house because the British government invaded his country, and has committed murder of civilians to maintain that invasion in every generation until it did not serve their political ends to so do.

I covered the war in Ireland, in the late seventies as a photo journalist and found that I, as an Anglo Irish Protestant had nothing to fear from Republican forces. Rather, both Loyalist and Crown armed forces where intent on killing people to keep the truth of the politics and prejudice being brought to the rest of the world. Another photo journalist, as an example, that year was shot at by crown forces, she was the daughter of the governor of New York, Mario Cuomo.

What I found interesting is that the so called terrorists wanted the world to see, deep into their actions and communities, while England had remarkably aggressive censorship laws concerning what was being done in Ireland. In fact, you might read the Stalker Affair, by Manchester police commissioner John Stalker, about what happened to a loyal subject when trying to honestly investigate the murder of Irish civilians by the British army.

I agree, let by gones be by gones. In fact, if you are ever in New York, I'd be the first one to show you around and buy you a pint. However, if you don't understand and study your history you are bound to repeat it and repeat it the US and Britain are doing in Iraq.

Slan agus beannacht
lor

PS I am very fond of Eric Bogle's music... the flaw in this song is that it presents the events as if Britain has no role in the war in the northern counties of Ireland, not one of his best songs, I am afraid.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: guitar
Date: 20 May 07 - 07:31 AM

OK.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: guitar
Date: 20 May 07 - 07:35 AM

peace


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 May 07 - 07:58 AM

inOBU,
Why do you say that our prisons were worse than Abu Greb?
I think that they compared favorably with US jails.
The hunger strike was not about prison conditions, but the loss of political status for paramilitary prisoners.
(I disagree with everything else as well.)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 07 - 08:12 AM

Peace in Ireland thread - Just over 40 posts.

This thread? Gone over 60 and still counting. Look at who is posting on both threads as well.

I am not saying that some posters here are not interseted in Peace, only in fighting, arguing and keeping the hatred going but the figures do make you think don't they.

Yours, sadly,

Dave


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,An Irishman
Date: 20 May 07 - 05:25 PM

Rest in peace, Bobby Sands. You made the ultimate sacrifice for your country.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 20 May 07 - 05:50 PM

I remember that some of the hunger strikers asked their families to promise that they would not intervene once they went into a coma. I kept hoping that they would intervene and that somehow it would all get resolved - and I'm British.

Very sad.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: InOBU
Date: 20 May 07 - 08:26 PM

Dear Keith:
Conditions were in fact worse. The prisoners, as they did not get trials, and were held as POWs demanded not to do prison work, or wear prison clothes, rights guaranteed under the Geneva Convention. So, if they were not wearing prison clothes they were not allowed clothes at all. They were not allowed to empty the buckets in which they defecated unless they put on prison clothes. So, they found that the only way to cut down on the stench was to smear the feces on the walls of their cells so it would dry faster. They beds, and all furniture were taken out of the cells, and so they had to sleep naked on concrete floors in their own filth. Now, it is true, that once they had been "convicted" there was less torture, but there still was a lot of beatings and brutality. I am not saying this to keep the past alive, but in order to understand what our nations are doing today, we need to understand what we did in the not to distant past.
I know many former prisoners of the British army, many are still suffering from the effects of torture and beatings. We might find that Abu Greb is worse then so far has been reported, and it is not important to say which was in fact worse, both are horrific and a stain on our national reputations.
Peace
lor


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:12 AM

SOLDIER
(Harvey Andrews)

In a station in the city a British soldier stood
Talking to the people there if the people would
Some just stared in hatred, and others turned in pain
And the lonely British soldier wished he was back home again

Come join the British Army! said the posters in his town
See the world and have your fun come serve before the Crown
The jobs were hard to come by and he could not face the dole
So he took his country's shilling and enlisted on the roll

For there was no fear of fighting, the Empire long was lost
Just ten years in the army getting paid for being bossed
Then leave a man experienced a man who's made the grade
A medal and a pension some mem'ries and a trade

Then came the call for Ireland as the call had come before
Another bloody chapter in an endless civil war
The priests they stood on both sides the priests they stood behind
Another fight in Jesus's name the blind against the blind

The soldier stood between them between the whistling stones
And then the broken bottles that led to broken bones
The petrol bombs that burnt his hands the nails that pierced his skin
And wished that he had stayed at home surrounded by his kin

The station filled with people the soldier soon was bored
But better in the station than where the people warred
The room filled up with mothers with daughters and with sons
Who stared with itchy fingers at the soldier and his gun

A yell of fear a screech of brakes the shattering of glass
The window of the station broke to let the package pass
A scream came from the mothers as they ran towards the door
Dragging their children crying from the bomb upon the floor

The soldier stood and could not move his gun he could not use
He knew the bomb had seconds and not minutes on the fuse
He could not run and pick it up and throw it in the street
There were far too many people there too many running feet

Take cover! yelled the soldier, Take cover for your lives
And the Irishmen threw down their young and stood before their wives
They turned towards the soldier their eyes alive with fear
For God's sake save our children or they'll end their short lives here

The soldier moved towards the bomb his stomach like a stone
Why was this his battle God why was he alone
He lay down on the package and he murmured one farewell
To those at home in England to those he loved so well

He saw the sights of summer felt the wind upon his brow
The young girls in the city parks how precious were they now
The soaring of the swallow the beauty of the swan
The music of the turning world so soon would it be gone

A muffled soft explosion and the room began to quake
The soldier blown across the floor his blood a crimson lake
There was no time to cry or shout there was no time to moan
And they turned their children's faces from the blood and from the bones

The crowd outside soon gathered and the ambulances came
To carry off the body of a pawn lost in the game
And the crowd they clapped and cheered and they sang their rebel song
One soldier less to interfere where he did not belong

And will the children growing up learn at their mothers' knees
The story of the soldier who bought their liberty
Who used his youthful body as a means towards an end
Who gave his life to those who called him murderer not friend

[1972:] If you can con an ordinary man into protecting your interests, he gets done when the crisis comes, not you. Many soldiers are not professional killers, they're kids who couldn't get a job, and as unemployment has soared, recruiting for the army has increased by over 60% in three years. The average soldier is unimportant in the final analysis, it's the ones who shelter behind him that count [...] and they always seem to survive! (Notes Harvey Andrews, 'Writer of Songs')

[1973:] Written from newspaper clippings. (Forces Folk 11/73, p 10)

[1979:] His next major song, however, inadvertently created a controversy which, for a while, clearly damaged Andrews' standing and viability. 'Soldier', in spite of an unambiguous sleevenote, was widely interpreted as a pro-establishment glorification of military heroism and, therefore, by left-wing logical extension, of authoritarian violence; whereas in fact it was a simple (if lyrically somewhat overwritten) story of a young man caught in an impossible situation. The song was neither for the British authorities nor against the Irish rebels; it was about the senselessness of violence, applied on a personal level. [...] Harvey Andrews' Belfast song ('Soldier') was not a lasting success (though it remains popular, for obvious reasons, with army audiences in Ulster and Germany). (Woods, Revival 115f)

[1990:] In Northern Ireland, this song written in 1972 by a professional songwriter, Harvey Andrews, has become very widely known among soldiers, and at the same time divorced in classic folk-song style from its author. (Palmer, Lovely War 18)
In 1971 in Belfast a soldier called Sergeant Willis cleared a room of civilians because of a bomb. As he went to close the door afterwards, the charge exploded, and he was killed. [...] Harvey Andrews, was so struck by the incident that he wrote the song to make the point that soldiers, too, are human. (The incident of the soldier's embracing the bomb was poetic licence.) Broadcasts of Andrews' record were banned for some time by the BBC lest feelings be exacerbated in the nationalist community of Northern Ireland. The Ministry of Defence advised (and still advises) soldiers not to sing the song in pubs where it might cause trouble. Some have interpreted this as a ban. Nevertheless, they sing it 'all the time', according to one source, on military transport and in messes and canteens. It has been said that some units require newcomers to learn to sing or recite the song before they become fully accepted. Andrews' authorship is not widely known, and many different stories about the song's origin circulate. [...]
The text has appeared in the 'Soldier', the 'Methodist' magazine, and the 'Manchester Evening News' (where in 1988 it won a poetry competition for a youth who sent it in over his own name). (Palmer, Lovely War 199)

Some years ago I asked Harvey about this song, and he told me: "Someone told me my song was banned in the army, so I thought the ones to know would be the Ministry of Defence, and asked them. They even had it in their files that the song was 'written by Harvey Andrews, who'd been in 2nd Para'. I never was in the army in my life!" Harvey is a nice guy, and always ready to talk to you, and I love many of his songs. But I'd agree with Woods this one is somewhat overwritten. Try 'Hello Hans' instead! ^^


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,devonshireee
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:16 AM

Yes I agree, I think it is sad that when a prisoner dies, even for his country it is a shame.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Declan
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:42 AM

Whatever you think about Bobby Sands and his organisation (of which I was not a supporter), the line being taken by a number of people here - "A crime is a crime is a crime" - "No negotiation with Terrorists" is remarkably similar to the response of Thatcher and her Government to the hunger strikes. By refusing to address the issues which gave rise to the hunger strikes, she handed a massive propaganda victory to the IRA - one which ultimately lead to Sinn Fein now being in Government in Northern Ireland.

I don't understand why people think we need another movie about the hunger strikes at this point. Maybe if it is a reflective and balanced film looking back over something that 26 years on, and is now a part of history, it will be a good thing.

If people were constrained from making films about war and killing and crime and criminals and freedom fighters and terrorists (you choose the labels) the volume of movies made each year would be considerably reduced.

Just a note to the clones, This thread is about Bobby Sands. The links above refer to Tommy Sands. While I think they might actually be related (distant cousins maybe) there is a world of difference between the two in terms of there approach to life and politics. I think it is not appropriate to have the Tommy Sands links in this thread, although posters on both sides of this argument would do well to listen to Tommy's songs.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:57 AM

INobu,
Hi Larry,
All the hunger strikers had been tried and convicted.

For the record, I am not saying BS was a criminal, end of discussion.
I am just clarifying errors of fact.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:37 AM

I find it a little odd that the guest who took the trouble to read my last post and point out where the different posters were from had his post deleted. I am awaiting the same treatment of the posting of Harveys wonderful song. Surely there is no pro-republican bias amongst our American moderators is there? Maybe Roger Gall had it right...

Cheers

Dave


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: InOBU
Date: 21 May 07 - 08:14 AM

Kieth, dear friend (truly)
I would not agree that the hungerstrikers were "tried and convicted" They were convicted without trial by most civil standards. The Diplock courts are hardly courts. My friend Tony O'Hara was given five years for driving a car in a bank robbery. At the time (and possibly presently, I have to ask him next time we speak) he never learned to drive. At the time of his "conviction," he did not know how to drive, after the beatings while being tortured by the British government's police and soldiers, the resulting brain damage made it impossible for him to drive. This brain damage was diagnosed in the United States in the late 1980s, and was typical of victims of torture who came to the US for treatment.

The Diplock courts accepted "evidence" gained under torture, from tortured defendants, or from "super grasses" who often after torture were paid large sums to inform on others. The "judiciary" in the northern counties of Ireland went on strike when it was suggested that the hearings would be more fair if three magistrates sat on each case. There were no juries, nor was there a right to a jury trial. In the case of Tony O'Hara, in small letters over his "confession" after weeks of torture, he wrote in small letters "This was signed under duress." Tony pointed this out to the magistrate, in hopes that even in a jury court, there would be some way of exposing the torture to which he had been subjected. Besides sleep deprivation and constant beatings to the head, Tony was placed by the Army in a helicopter, blindfolded. The helicopter took off at a high rate of speed, so he could feel the acceleration, and knew they had lifted off. It eased down to a few feet over the ground, where questions continued to be shouted out him. He was then thrown from the copter. The effect of this experience, such as guns being dry fired, or fired near to the head, has been seen to cause long term damage, sometimes life long damage.

To call this a conviction after trial is an obscenity. I agree with the earlier comment on the state of American prisons and jails. I would hold my juris doctorate very cheep indeed, if I did not say that the state of American justice is abominable and needs systemic change. However, that happened in Ireland is a different kind of wrong. At least, in spite of the assaults on basic rights here, such as Habeas Corpus, there is a right to see a jury, though of late this administration has eroded that by setting up island in our legal system where law does not apply ... not only in Cuba, but in the secret detention centers in other countries, and the acceptence of secret evidence withheld from defendants. This does not justify the support of the systemic use of torture and "courts" without due process in the northern counties of Ireland. And in that, I stand by my comments, that if well done, this is an important film, as we live in times when the basic concepts of rights and justice are in danger of being lost forever.

All the best
lor


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,scurvy
Date: 21 May 07 - 08:56 AM

bobby sands was an arse,


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 21 May 07 - 08:56 AM

Be grateful that it is not being made by Mel Gibson. Oh JESUS, just imagine. A load of shit like Braveheart or the Patriot.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,ib48
Date: 21 May 07 - 09:00 AM

all ultra religious nuts and militant disruptive gits can all starve to death as far as i am concerned.Will i watch the film,i would rather watch a replay of the cup final


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Shaneo
Date: 21 May 07 - 09:30 AM

To the cowards above who are afraid to log in and instead use the Guest label.
If you put yourself forward for election in whatever country you live in , who many people would vote for you ? not many is the answer.
Say what you will about Bobby Sands ,he will go down in history as a patriot , at least in Ireland.
How many poems or songs or books have you written ? sweet feck all I would say.
Babby Sands has written at least three fine songs which are still being played today by ballad singers throughout the world.
'Back Home In Derry' ,which was originally called 'The Voyage ' ,McIlhatton' and 'Sad Song For Susan' with the help of Brendan McFarlane.
Christy Moore thought so much about the songs that he includes them at most of his gigs.
Also Guest ,God forbid ,but if you were to die today how many would attend your funeral ? 80,000 attended the burial of Bobby Sands , that's how much respect the man han here in Ireland.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 07 - 10:21 AM

I come from Scotland and I liked braveheart, as a matter of fact durning our parliment elctions their was a candidate called Braveheart


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 07 - 11:19 AM

Shaneo, I am not disputing the stature of the man, but I do question the view taken by old friend InOBU.
The Diplock Courts had to be instigated because no juror dared find an IRA man guilty.
BS's judge fairly refused to convict him of the bombing and shooting, though few would doubt his involvement.
All the hunger strikers were open about being IRA activists and so accepted involvement in bombings and shootings.
They did not dispute the justification of their imprisonment, just the lack of political status.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,ib48
Date: 21 May 07 - 11:23 AM

SHANEO,what absolute bullshit,are you a bigot? Just forgive and forget and live in bloody peace for gods sake,if there is one.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 07 - 11:23 AM

I meant to add that I share your disgust at the mistreatment of prisoners.
Do you share my disgust that IRA tortured most and murdered all of their prisoners?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,ib48
Date: 21 May 07 - 11:28 AM

Are you all sure that there is a god,cos if there isnt you have all wasted your precious time hating for no reason.What a waste


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,sinky
Date: 21 May 07 - 11:31 AM

does I R A stand for ignorant religious arse?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Shaneo
Date: 21 May 07 - 11:35 AM

I have moved on alright and I fully support the peace process , there is no denying the talent the man had.
As for there being a God. I believe , but if I choose not to believe then I would be admitting that my ancestors were monkeys.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST,ib48
Date: 21 May 07 - 11:49 AM

Okay shaneo,i hope we can all live in peace.I wish ireland peace and prosperity,its a beautiful place


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Teribus
Date: 21 May 07 - 11:52 AM

"The war in Ireland was to keep NATO forces on the soil of a non aligned nation, and as soon as the USSR broke up, and Ireland put aside neutrality in the first gulf war, suddenly, Britain found they could negotiate with the IRA." - InOBU, 19 May 07 - 10:14 PM

On the above -

Point 1.
NATO forces have never been stationed in the Republic of Ireland

Point 2.
I cannot recall Eire putting aside it's neutrality during the first gulf war. It did honour it's long standing bi-lateral agreement with the United States of America with regard to staging transport flights through Shannon Airport

Point 3.
On the three occasions throughout the "Troubles" when the Provisional IRA approached the UK Government with regard to the possibility of arranging a "ceasefire" the UK Government has always talked to them. On all three occasions the PIRA broke the "ceasefire". The "Downing Street Declaration" was made in response to an offer made by the PIRA, that ultimately lead to the signing of the GFA, it then took the PIRA 10 years to decommission its weapons and abandon the "armed struggle".

All of the above had absolutely sweet FA to do with the break-up of the Soviet Union.

"He had guns in his house because the British government invaded his country, and has committed murder of civilians to maintain that invasion in every generation until it did not serve their political ends to so do." - InOBU, 20 May 07 - 07:25 AM

Point 1.
Under the laws pertinent to Northern Ireland at the time he should not have had any firearms in his possession. The guns he was in possession of were examined forensically and proved to have been guns used in attacks upon the police.

Point 2.
Bobby Sands was born in Abbots Cross, Newtownabbey, County Antrim, Northern Ireland, on 9 March 1954. He was therefore born in the United Kingdom. Perhaps InOBU can explain how it would therefore be possible for the British Government to invade it's own territory?

Point 3.
Perhaps InOBU can provide some evidence regarding the murder of civilians perpetrated by the Government of the United Kingdom to - "maintain that invasion in every generation until it did not serve their political ends to so do." Please don't count periods of armed civil unrest or rebellion. Now on the other hand looking at "The Troubles", financed so willingly by the "plastic Paddies" of the USA, perhaps InOBU or his good friend can explain why in their so-called role of protecting the Catholic/Nationalist community of Northern Ireland they managed to be responsible for 2/3rds of the fatalities and a far higher percentage of those maimed and injured.

"I know many former prisoners of the British army, many are still suffering from the effects of torture and beatings." - InOBU, 20 May 07 - 08:26 PM

There are far, far many more victims of paramilitary violence who did not get the benefit of NORAID money to go to the US for treatment and councilling - probably because they would spread the word as to who was responsible for their injuries - not good publicity, not good for the fund raising' round those "Boston Bars".

Point from the same post, they were not held as POW's, that was their principal demand - to be treated as POW's.

With regard to InOBU's post of 21 May 07 - 08:14 AM.

Non-Jury Trials and Internment could hardly have come as a surprise to the "bold IRA". They had been subjected to both before in Eire in 1938 on the orders of DeValera, who at the time was shit scared the clowns of the IRA were going to drag Ireland into the Second World War. The reason for the Non-Jury Trials was the same in both instances. To have a trial by jury you must first have a jury. Juries and their families are notoriously vulnerable, particularly to the type of threats that could be carried out by paramilitary groups. Rules of evidence however were never compromised.

I would rather hope in the interests of balance and justice that Mr. MacQueen comes out with a film about Mrs Jean McConville and that as someone interested in justice that InOBU would support such a project.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: InOBU
Date: 21 May 07 - 01:42 PM

Well, hello, dear friendTeribus:

In spite of the use of insults, which I don't think add to your points, you do approach this from a stand point which is informed and well put. It makes for a good way to organize a response, and thank you. I'd have another point of view on most, but as me da used to say, "that's what makes for horse racing," which is a better way to deal with all this than war ... but I will start with the last point first.

I would hope to see a film about Mrs. Jean McConville, well researched and with input from all sides. I think the only way forward is a truth and reconciliation process that begins with talk. A short aside, I was being interviewed on a radio station, on some subject or another, not Ireland, in fact ... and just before me there was a member of a loyalist paramilitary group, so we were in the greenroom together. No one would go over to him, so I brought him a cup of tea, and we sat down together. He and I chatted about the weather and New York, and he told me that he felt in a place that was not very friendly, as the radio station was progressive and he had no one there who felt as he did, and he was glad to meet an Irish Protestant to make him feel at home. I explained that he and I had very different politics, but welcome anyway. He was rather surprised and asked why I came over to welcome him, and I told him peace has to start with a cup of tea together, at least.

To speak to your points:
Point One and Two:

The laws of the northern counties of Ireland of which you speak, were in violation of the Irish constitution at the time Robert Sands was alive. The constitution of Ireland came about due to a war resulting from the 1911 election, and did not recognize six of the nine counties of Ulster, as by the treaty with Britain, which ended the 1919 Anglo Irish war, after two years, the occupation of any part of Ireland by Britain was illegal. In short, in the treaty ended that war, Britain was to withdraw from the six northern counties in two years, and did not. Sands was a member of an insurgent group with an unbroken chain of command to that war which established the Irish Republic. Even after the 1922 civil war, the Irish Republic continued to recognize the northern counties as legally a part of Ireland, and Sands could have held an Irish passport.

Point Three:

There has been armed resistance to British occupation of Ireland in every generation since Strongbow, and so to exclude times of "armed civil unrest or rebellion" would be impossible, there has never been peace in Ireland. So, to not include the murder, by Arthur Chitchester of hundreds of men woman and children around Dungannon during the Nine Years War, or the murder of Carol Ann Kelly during the 1980s, would give a distorted view of Irish history. Every generation has watched British soldiers kill Irish people to maintain control in Ireland.
The period from the nineteen sixties to the nineteen eighties has been carefully examined in the United States, not in the "bars of Boston," but in the federal courts of the United States. I would have you read the trial record of the case of Joseph Patrick Doherty. In that case, the Executive Branch of the US government, and the government of Great Britain, with virtually unlimited resources sought the extradition of Doherty, on the claim that he was a terrorist who had committed murder in the death of Captain Westmacott of the SAS. Joe Dohert'y legal representation had almost no resources, and in the end the fight bankrupted the small firm. What they had on their side was the evidence.
Pay records of the IRA where presented as well as witnesses to Irish history, IRA training manuals, and newspaper accounts. The US courts, who were bias against Doherty, but where, in fact, neutral, in the end found that the IRA did not target civilians as a primary target of war, but that loyalists and the British army did. In the end, the executive branch of the US government changed the laws governing extradition to Britain, to deny the ability to respondents to extradition to put British actions on trial. It should be noted that this change in the ability to access courts was done, not because anyone was threatened, but because our two nations wished to keep certain truths under wraps.

Point four (the numeration systems ends here) ?

Tony O'Hara got no benefit from NORAID, which only served the PIRA, Tony was a member of the INLA, which had its roots separately in the OIRA. But, yes, you are right, NORAID did not aid all victims of violence in the war. I agree it would be a good thing if there was such an organization, as part of a truth and reconciliation process, as all victims of violence need a lot of support.

Point Five (ish)

I'm not sure of your point about DeValera. As you say, he carried neutrality to the point of the ridiculous, when he sent condolences to the German government at the death of hitler. Where I believe in expressing human sympathy for the death of the worst of us, he did not do so with an even hand. During the Civil War, there were terrible atrocities on both sides, the Free State forces, for example, tied a number of republicans to a land mine in Balliseedy, in Kerry and detonated it, killing most. I believe the civil war could have, and should have been avoided, but there was a complex political dynamic, not free of involvement by British pressure in that event.

In the US, when there is a trial where there is a threat, even a hint of a threat to the jury, in Mob trials and now in political trials, the identities of the jury are held secrete. It would not have been impossible to have juries behind a screen, and brought from secrete locations to insure justice. But, as I said, the magistrates in the northern counties would not even agree to three judge panels. As to, "Rules of evidence however were never compromised,"
that is simply not the case. Evidence taken under torture is the most untrustworthy of any evidence and one could be convicted on the unsupported testimony of a single police officer. Most civil jurisdictions would say, that in such a case, rules of evidence where nonexistent in the diplock courts.        

All the best, slan,
Is mise, le meas
lor


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: InOBU
Date: 21 May 07 - 01:59 PM

PS
Continued from directly above....

Hello, again... I thought there were points missing... I see there is a first half with numbered points ... so let's see...

Point one (upper half...)

        
NATO forces where stationed in the occupied counties of the Irish Republic, recognized as part of the nation by both the 1922 treaty ending the Anglo Irish War, and the constitution of the Republic of Ireland at the time Robert Sands was alive.

Point Two:

Many people in Ireland felt this agreement violated the neutrality provision of the Irish Constitution, hence the cartoon in the Irish Times which showed a child and mother watching the US planes taking off for Iraq. The kid says, "Let me understand this neutrality thing, if Sadam wants to bomb New York, he can land here too?" Further evidence of the feelings of the Irish people was witnessed in the sentencing of (was it Mary)? Kelly, who took an ax to a US plane inflicting millions of dollars in damage. The US wanted her put away for life, she was found guilty and given no jail time. A small victory for neutrality.

Point Three

At any number of times, when there was forward motion for peace in Ireland British military intelligence committed or sponsored sectarian killings in order to keep the war alive. You may wish to find anything written by Fred (or is it Frank) Holroyed, who left Military Intelligence over his disgust at the use of loyalist paramilitaries to commit murder for the organization in which he served. He has lectured about, for example, the Icarus plan, the plan to use Irish airbases if the USSR had moved on western Germany. I will try and find you the spelling of his name. I sponsored a talk by him at NYU law school many years ago, he was one of the sources for the film, Hidden Agenda, which, after it won an award in Cannes, was banned in Britain until the cease fire. The IRA, at the outset of the present troubles sought peace talks, but the secret negotiations began the year of the break up of the Soviet Union, and at that point, there is a perceivable change in attitude towards loyalists by the British government.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 07 - 04:24 PM

The film Hidden Agenda was released in Britain. It was never banned, but a screening on Channel 4 TV was pulled because it was in the immediate aftermath of an IRA bomb on an English shopping centre that injured 50 people and killed a 3 year old boy who was buying a Mothers Day card.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Teribus
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:15 PM

"NATO forces where stationed in the occupied counties of the Irish Republic, recognized as part of the nation by both the 1922 treaty ending the Anglo Irish War, and the constitution of the Republic of Ireland at the time Robert Sands was alive." - InOBU

Ah! "..the occupied counties of the Irish Republic,.." By this fantasy I take it you mean the physical and political entity known throughout the world as Northern Ireland. Internationally recognised as being part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Unfortunately for the Republicans in 1922, having just fought an extremely bloody civil war of their own in order to establish Eire, nobody really had the stomach to fight an even bloodier civil war to "conquer" the North against the will of the people who lived there - InOBU all your talk of recognition and mentions in Constitutions amount to aspirations not fact.

The actual facts are that Bobby Sands was born a British Subject in an integral part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The last poll held on the subject still records about 62% of the population wish it to remain so.

Even with all of that taken into account there have never been NATO forces stationed in Northern Ireland. NATO force deployments within Europe were:
- Iceland
- Greenland
- Norway (Northern Flank)
- Belgium (SHAPE HQ)
- Germany (Center)
- Spain
- Italy
- Malta
- Turkey (Southern Flank)

"The US courts, who were bias against Doherty, but where, in fact, neutral, in the end found that the IRA did not target civilians as a primary target of war, but that loyalists and the British army did." - InOBU.

You are behind the times InOBU even the PIRA has admitted that that is a load of horseshit and apologised for the civilian deaths they deliberately caused.

If you don't believe me InOBU, perhaps you can tell me please just who the Provisional IRA were targeting in Belfast city centre on the 21st July, 1972. Between 14:09hrs and 15:30hrs on that horrendous afternoon 22 bombs were detonated by the PIRA in a city centre packed with Irish shoppers. That equates to one bomb every 3 minutes 40 seconds InOBU - How do you reckon New York's finest would have coped? What would have been the result? How efficient do you think they would have been had they had to have coped with the added twist of hoax calls phoned in along with real ones? PIRA Commander in Belfast at the time was one Gerry Adams, same person that sanctioned the abduction, torture and murder of Mrs Jean McConville a completely innocent, widowed mother of ten.

Unlike you InOBU I have got absolutely no respect or admiration for any of the paramilitary groups that were active in Northern Ireland, or their supporters/apologists. By their actions they considered themselves to be above the law of the land, that is where they placed themselves, they should therefore not be surprised in the least when unorthodox means are used to curb their activities.

Oh, by the bye, InOBU the "butcher's bill" for "Bloody Friday" as it came to be known was nine dead, 130 injured. Those figures were as low as they were due to the magnificent work done by Belfast City's Emergency Services, the RUC and the British Army - Gerry Adams and the PIRA had a completely different scenario and outcome in mind.

INLA eh? Members of that organisation had more to fear from factions within their own organisation and PIRA than from the Security Forces, according to the statistics.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: InOBU
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:22 PM

Here is part of an interview with Ken Loach, which I think speaks to the value of films about folks such as Bobby Sands. Keith, you might be right, I think I was thinking of his film about the coal miners which was banned under Thatcher. There is a link to the whole interview.
All the best
lor

http://www.netribution.co.uk/2/content/view/632/267/

Both brothers, Damien and Teddy, would be labelled terrorists today, wouldn't they?

(PL) "This is a fascinating question when you think about it, isn't it? The notion of terrorists and how it's been defined and how it's been constructed, because if anyone took an objective view from a human rights point of view of how many innocent people have been killed, by far the majority have been killed by state terrorism. That shouldn't really be contentious but it's almost impossible to say. But look at Columbia just now, look what's happening in Iraq. All you have to do is look at the history of Latin America and Central America, which I had lived through and I had seen - it was actually financed by states. Now it's been defined as Bush's 'war on terror'.  It's really quite fascinating how they got away with it and I think it really shows a lack of critical thinking.

"But going back to your question in relation to the brothers, this is why we were very keen to place it just after that vital election in 1918. It was the last all Ireland, all British election; Sinn Fein won 72 out of 105 seats, they had a democratic mandate for complete independence from the British Empire, they set up a parliament in consequence of their mandate, Lord French banned that parliament, when they complained they were put in prison, when they wrote about it they banned their newspapers, so what do they do in those circumstances? All peaceful methods were actually barred to them. There was violence perpetrated against those people who tried to follow the democratic wishes. So out of that came the war of independence. But it's fascinating that the people who opposed the British state are always deemed to be the terrorists. I think it's worth unravelling and going back and examining that."

What is the human cost of violent revolution?

(KL) "Well you can count the cost in many ways. First of all trying to establish a peaceful independent country the cost was brutal oppression by the British. And then once that has happened, it is inevitable that people will resist, because they always do. So I guess the cost is the exposure of the hypocrisy of empires in this case. You can count it in all kinds of ways but it just exposes the hypocrisy of empires, in this case the British Empire, which claimed to be exporting civilisation and tolerance but was actually exporting violence, brutality and oppression."

There was a critic on British TV yesterday who said that while he really liked the film he felt we had to be careful not to glorify the IRA.

[Loach bursts into laughter] "Oh God preserve us! God preserve us! It is amazing! It is amazing!"

But do you differentiate between the IRA of the 1920s and the IRA who years later carried out bombing campaigns in London, Birmingham, and so on?

(KL) "I think this is an outrageous question and an outrageous point to make. The brutality is on record. We could have made a whole film of brutal acts and gone on for twenty-four hours. I mean just imagine it: they slit a man's throat, they tie him to a cart, they drag him for a mile and kill him. They beat a man's skull in. A woman comes to the door with a child in her arms, they shoot the mother. I mean how much brutality do you have to show for someone to actually take it and say, 'Yes, we did that', without trying to get a sort of dagger in underneath?

"The IRA of the 60s and 70s was a product of the despicable treaty that the British imposed at the point of a gun. If the British hadn't imposed partition, there would be no Provisional IRA. The entire responsibility lies with the British state. The entire responsibility. Everything that has emerged has been a protest, sometimes a violent protest, sometimes an aberrant protest, but nevertheless a protest, from the brutality of the British and the brutality of the British Empire embodied in bastards like Churchill, who not only sent the troops into Ireland, he sent the troops against Welsh miners in his own country when they wanted a decent wage. So I mean we should have no tolerance at all for these questions that try to indicate that somehow the resistance to British brutality is not acceptable."

Post-9/11 most resistance is now classified as terrorism, isn't it?

(PL) "Actually, it's funny how the language and the psychology hasn't changed very much. There was that great phrase by Churchill, talking about Ireland, 'We have terror by the throat'. It doesn't really change very much."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: InOBU
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:46 PM

Hello again, Teribus:

The problem with war, is that often folks accept the same facts and draw differing conclusions ... and then fight each other to convince the other, not of the facts but the conclusions ... so ... well, thank God for pubs, pints and computers ... much better ways to look at the conclusions. Your cultural context leads you to one set of conclusions from what you have read or saw, mine leads to another from what I lived through in the northern counties of Ireland in the seventies...

You write "By this fantasy I take it you mean the physical and political entity known throughout the world as Northern Ireland. Internationally recognised as being part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Unfortunately for the Republicans in 1922, having just fought an extremely bloody civil war of their own in order to establish Eire..."

That is one way to look at it. Many see the Irish Republic coming into existence after the elections of 1911. Or, if you will, international treaties are law. So, when Britain signed a treaty in 1921, which they reneged upon, then the occupation of the northern counties became illegal.

The civil war began, when Michael Collins negotiated a treaty with Britain, after the successful 1919-21 Anglo Irish war. From memory, I think it was Lloyd George, who threatened him with the "Orange Card" that is to say, if they did not accept a two year period of transition on the issue of the northern most counties of the nine counties of Ulster, then Britain would arm the loyalists. Collins saw this as a step towards an end to the struggle. Others felt, they had won a horrible struggle, where British troops such as the Essex Brigade who pretended to surrender to fire on the West Cork Brigade members under a flag of truce ... and felt they should not accept a conditional end to the struggle. Britain had a heavy hand in forcing the split which led to the civil war, and then armed the Free State helping to insure that the split would be violently decided. Frankly, it is a great shame that Ireland did not fall for the division Britain fostered, but, it is hard for people living at peace to judge the behavior of people who had been through a brutal war in their own villages and towns. The British atrocities in Ireland where extreme and led to extreme feelings and actions.

There is a difference between saying that civilians were a target of war, and that civilians were killed. The history of civilian deaths in the war in the North is very complex and Britain cannot be held innocent in weighing that process. wither or not you believe it was British policy to continue a war as a way of keeping a nonaligned nation destabilized ... well, I must leave for a committee meeting in a mo, and I do want to answer as much of your points as possible ... I will write more on this, perhaps tomorrow...

As to the low injuries during Bloody Sunday, due to the actions of the RUC, British Army etc... would there have been fewer still, if the army had not fired on unarmed demonstrators in the first place?

Must run, more latter

all the best

Lorcan


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Teribus
Date: 22 May 07 - 01:55 AM

"The IRA of the 60s and 70s was a product of the despicable treaty that the British imposed at the point of a gun. If the British hadn't imposed partition, there would be no Provisional IRA. The entire responsibility lies with the British state. The entire responsibility." - Ken Loach

Ireland was partitioned in 1921 under the terms of the Government of Ireland Act 1920. Six of the nine Ulster counties in the north-east formed Northern Ireland and the remaining three counties joined those of Leinster, Munster and Connacht to form Southern Ireland. Whilst the former came into being, the latter had only a momentary existence to ratify (in United Kingdom law) the Anglo-Irish Treaty that ended the Anglo-Irish War.

Under the Anglo-Irish Treaty, Northern Ireland was provisionally scheduled to be included in the Irish Free State, though it could opt out should the Parliament of Northern Ireland elect so to do. As expected, it did so immediately. Once that happened, as provided for, an Irish Boundary Commission came into being, to decide on the territorial boundaries between the Irish Free State and Northern Ireland. Though leaders in Dublin expected a substantial reduction in the territory of Northern Ireland, with nationalist areas like south Armagh, Tyrone, southern Londonderry and urban territories like Derry and Newry moving to the Free State, it appears that the Boundary Commission decided against this. The British and Irish governments agreed to leave the boundaries as they were defined in the 1920 Act. The Council of Ireland provided for in the Treaty, to link Northern Ireland and the Irish Free State, did not come into being.

The above from Wikipedia

It would appear that nothing was "imposed at the point of a gun" by anybody. If you take a look at British politics you will find that the Liberal Party had been trying to shake Ireland lose and give it Home Rule from the 1870's, contested within Parliament by the Conservatives and by the Lords, and resisted in Ulster by the Protestants, they (the Liberals) almost suceeded in 1914, unfortunately the First World War got in the way.

Maybe Mr. Loach did not research about the "provisional" scheduling of the North joining the South, or of the opt out clause granted to the Parliament of Northern Ireland and agreed to by both parties (British and Irish Governments). The Council of Ireland did not come into being because DeValera wanted no contact with Britain, It has been such a defacto Council of Ireland that has been guiding the Peace Process since the signing of the GFA in 1998.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 07 - 02:09 AM

The reference was to Bloody Friday, not Sunday.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: InOBU
Date: 22 May 07 - 06:58 AM

Hi Friends:

Doing a bit of back filling, there has been so much raised here, in a single thread trying to set out an understanding of at least seventy years of history, with emphasis on the past forty years...

Teribus' question about what the NYPD would have done if there was a bombing campaign in New York brings up a good point, and speaks to the value of a film about Bobby Sands. We had a bombing campain in New York, and other parts of the US for a number of decades which had the potential of becoming very like the situation in Ireland. A small number of communities during the seventies (Puerto Rican Nationalists, the American Indian Movement, SDS Weathermen, Black Panthers and a few others) were involved in violent response to the COINTELPRO policies of the Federal Government, which nearly drove the US into urban violent unrest, what was the difference?

Well, let us look at Puerto Rico. The history of Puerto Rico has a number of similarities to Ireland. In the light of growing political success in organizing to free the island from domination by the US, the US began a program of encouraging islanders to leave and come to mainland cities (resulting in Ned Valero, or Eamon DeValera being born in New York) while bringing large numbers of Cubans to change the voting patterns in Puerto Rico. During the Truman administration, in the 1950s, Puerto Rican nationalists shot at senators from the gallery of Congress. For the most part, the US underplayed the danger of the violent resistance, and as a result, it did not grow in violence, until, during the Nixon years, and the COINTELPRO days, the Federal government took offensive actions against a number of armed, but not very violent groups. Prior to this, for example, the Black Panthers were armed against police violence in their neighborhoods, but were there to observe arrests, start food programs, but the murder in their beds of the leadership of the Chicago Black Panther party sparked a huge escalation in violence in response. The same was true in FLAN and other Puerto Rican groups. Unlike the British response in the northern counties of Ireland, however, there was much less lethal violence against the peaceful protests against COINTELPRO. There was potential for that, however. When, at Kent State, the National Guard, opened fire on a student protest killing four students, there was both national outrage and increased sense that the Federal Government was at war with those calling for change in the US. But, the US had no interest in a war with progressives in the US and policies were changed. So, after these times gave rise to armored car robberies, bombings, without the Federal Government, or local police forces being provoked into arrest without warrant, roundups and torture for information, and all the other package of responses we saw in the six counties, the violence grew more sporadic and melted away.

So, without writing a book, what is the germ of the story about NATO and Ireland, and its relationship to the "controllable" war in Ireland? As France and Spain withdrew from NATO, we began to see, off the coast of Ireland, each fishing season, trawlers being towed under by their nets as British subs planted listening devices to monitor Soviet Subs which were using Ireland as a lee to lie of the coast of Britain. Irish politics were rather complicated at the time, Sinn Fein had been getting some votes, but not taking seats in the Dail. Fine Gael was descended from the extreme right wing of the 1930s, the Blue Shirts, who had been opposed to Irish independence in the first place, and then there was Finna Fail, whose public face was in support of nationalism, but with a wink and a nod. So ... after the IRA in the North disarmed, and the violence against the republican and civil rights movement persisted, Jack Lynch and Charlie Haughie funneled money to the IRA units in the North on the condition that they would split with the then unified IRA led by Cathal Goulding in Dublin. This formed the Provisional IRA. Some believed that it was to amalgamate more political support from republicans in the South, who were voting for republican candidates but not being represented ... making Finna Fail the party of southern republicanism. But, there were those pesky subs...
Before the modern satellite system, one relied on listening alone for subs. Now, there is a split in the IRA ... and trawlers are being dragged down off the South west ... and oddly enough, a priest in Mayo announces that the statues in his parish are moving, and Knock will be the Lourdes of Ireland. This causes some mirth in Ireland ... but, suddenly, American businessmen are buying up farms in Mayo, and building an international airport. Many are scratching their heads. Then, a NATO document is stolen from an office in Europe. The document describes the "Icarus Plan" and it seems a bit far fetched at the time. It holds that if the USSR crosses into western Europe, say Western Germany, NATO will demand an end to Irish neutrality, an event that would likely happen, but, who is to say? If Ireland has another DeValera in power at the time, NATO will take Irish airports and use them as staging grounds for US air attacks. Well, as much as this seems like a spy novel, it explains why Finna Fail would rearm the northern republicans, not to support northern nationalism, in opposition to Whitehall, but, in support of British plans to destabilize the North, while not destabilizing the South, in order to keep Ireland from being a unified nonaligned nation.
Well, this might seem a little too complicated to work. But, well, then again the army council of the IRA was infiltrated right up to the top, we find, and British Intelligence has been found to have led loyalist hit squads ... and then, the same year that the Soviet Union breaks up, three years of secret negotiations with the IRA begin. Ireland sets aside any worries about neutrality, during the first Gulf War, and suddenly, as if by magic, peace is possible in Ireland. Sinn Fein breaks ties with progressive causes from support of Black Panther prisoners in the US, to well ... you name it.

The point of all this, is that wars are never fought for the reasons that are apparent on the surface. That is why, I don't make heroes out of either side, or villains out of one side and not the other. War is the problem. It is simply a poor choice to vilify the IRA or make heroes out of them, or doing the same to the British soldier. Both fought in a conflict which was against their personal and class interest, and were led into it, not by history as written in the books, but history as written in the back rooms of government offices. So, can films begin to tell these stories, maybe, hopefully as part of a greater truth and reconciliation process.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:27 AM

Was Sands a terrorist or hero ?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 07 - 10:03 AM

all depends on who you ask, his followers will say hero and his enemies will say terrorist, I'm with the latter sorry to say, but i hate anyone i don't who are what their campign is for I jsut don't believe that violance gets you anywhere except dead


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 May 07 - 10:09 AM

GUEST, there is wisdom in what you have said.

What makes Sands a hero to his followers is his absolute committment to his cause, and to righting the wrongs being committed against his people. The obvious evidence of his committment lies in his willingness to starve himself to death. Another reason he is revered was for his ability to couch the suffering of his people in such eloquent terms.

The film is important so long as it is done right. The most important thing on the ground in the North of Ireland is that the parties are sitting at the same table, choosing politics instead of the gun. God grant them the forebearance to succeed at their task.

Mick


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: InOBU
Date: 22 May 07 - 10:24 AM

Hi Guest,
As a commonly accepted fact, neither. He was a soldier, a poet, brilliant thoughtful young man. I knew people who knew him, and I knew a few people who were also called terrorists. For example Joe Doherty, a thoughtful, kind young man, like many soldiers on both sides. The heroism of Sand's actions, especially during the hunger strike, we wont all agree upon. I think his intellect is visible in his writings.
Keith points out the actions of British soldiers who saved lives in Ireland, and I agree. It was a military doctor who saved the life of a friend of mine, Bernadette Devlin McAlisky, and she would say so herself, he was an honorable man, who did the right thing. However, it was also British soldiers and police and prison guards who attempted to frame, and who tortured her daughter Rosin while she was expecting her first baby.
The sad fact is that governments type and charicature the "enemy" and "friend" What is interesting, and I am at a loss to understand, is that most folks, like Teribus, Keith, most of us here on Mudcat, are pretty well adjusted folks, who if we faced the problems our nations faced, would be able to work things out without killing each other. However, we elect a small group with a high instance of sociopathic behavior, LBJ, Nixon, Lynch, Haughie, Thatcher, Bush, Hitler, Musolini, and the list goes on of people with deep sociopathic tendancies who would kill for their politic, or more to the point, get others to kill, to keep them in power. I'd add Gerry Adams to that list, as his questionable dedication to the progressive goals of young men and woman in the republican community is in the way he moved Sin Fein to the middle of the road, as soon as it suited his aims. I've always consider Adams as a politician with all the faults that often accompanies that choice in life.
What is interesting, is the predictions that IRA men and women would turn to crime if the war was not being waged. That hasn't happened in most cases. Like all militaries, there are lots of different folks who go to war. But, for example, Joe Doherty, after decades in prison, became a teacher, and a very good one. Many former IRA men became statesmen, for example Sean McBride, who became the Assistant Secretary General of the U.N. and was the founder of Amnesty International.
I don't think we would ever agree on the histories of our nations, but to oppose making films does not help each other understand the conclusions we both draw from our shared histories. I would also say, that calling each other names does not help very much either, it feeds the whole mess of the politics of stereotypes, which I don't think ever made much sense, or spread much light.
All the best
is mise, le meas
lor


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Bobby Sands hunger strike film
From: Teribus
Date: 22 May 07 - 10:38 AM

According to InOBU, the germ of the story about NATO and Ireland, and its relationship to the "controllable" war in Ireland? As France and Spain withdrew from NATO, we began to see, off the coast of Ireland, each fishing season, trawlers being towed under by their nets as British subs planted listening devices to monitor Soviet Subs which were using Ireland as a lee to lie of the coast of Britain.

Some factual points worthy of consideration having read the above:

1. France never withdrew from NATO. From 1966 until 1993 it partially withdrew from the combined military command of NATO, it still remained a full political member of the alliance.

2. Spain only joined NATO in 1982 and has never withdrawn from it.

3. Trawler/MFV/Submarine incidents. As presented by InOBU all ocuring off the coast of Ireland with, presumably, Irish fishing boats being towed under by evil 'Brit' subs. Well not according to the Celtic League reports, here is what they say on the matter:

**The Celtic League monitors military activity and, over twenty years up to 1993, we have built up the most comprehensive dossier of over 150 incidents involving submarines and MFVs. Included in this total were twenty suspicious sinkings and disappearances and over 150 deaths. What was clear to us in relation to most of these incidents was that the vessels, from Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Cornwall & Brittany, were solid, seaworthy and crewed by experienced men.

More pointedly, when the Cold war ended and the US and Soviet navies left waters around the British Isles, the number of incidents involving MFVs and submarines dramatically declined.

In 1993 the Celtic League ended its campaign for International action to close waters around the British Isles to submerged exercise activity. By this time, considerable action by both the Royal Navy and Internationally had been taken to address the problem.

The campaign "ended" with the laying of a wreath in a submarine exercise area in the Irish sea, the scene of many of the sinkings. The wreath contained the names of the twenty vessels and though our campaign is over the mystery of their loss and the many deaths remains.**

Obviously InOBU knows more about this than those who have been studying it for years, as according to him all these sinkings were in Irish waters (which they were not) and all were caused by British Submarines (which they were not). Over a period of investigation and monitoring covering twenty years there are 20 incidents involving the loss of fishing vessels that MAY, or MAY NOT, have been due to activity involving submarines.

Short sea story for you InOBU. In my time with the RN I did two training trips and operational patrols on 'A-Class' and 'P&O-Class' submarines. In both subs they took great pains to avoid fishing vessels at all costs even to the extent of abandoning exercises and surfacing if need be, to get out of their way. That was in the mid-60's to mid-70's InOBU. Can you offer any explanation as to why those practices would change subsequent to that period? I can't.

4. Now what were those 'evil Brit subs' doing according to InOBU? Laying 'listening devices' to listen to Soviet submarines. Unfortunately for InOBU's story, such listening was done by US Navy SOSUS chains, and guess what? Not a single one was laid or operated by the British and none were located off the coast of Ireland. In any event commercial cable laying ships were used to install them - not submarines, British or otherwise.

I have a question - Just what the hell as any of the above got to do with what was happening in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - Sweet FA as far as I can see.

InOBU's original contention was that NATO forces were stationed in a non-aligned country which would be Eire. If such was the case then he should have no problem in stipulating the units and the occasions they were stationed in Eire. If on the other hand he cannot he should stop wittering on about something that did not happen, claiming it to be a reason for other things that did.

Oh InOBU, the reason that the PIRA came into existance was because the Official IRA took one look at what was happening up North and rather sensibly decided that it required no action as left to take it's own course the 'Civil Rights Movement' would win. The 'Brits' had already moved in to disband and disarm the B-Specials (my first tour) and public opinion throughout Ireland and the UK was firmly on the side of the Civil Rights Movement. Within the ranks of the IRA, having British soldiers protecting Catholic/Nationalist areas was unacceptable and the PIRA was formed and waded in. Great pity if they hadn't, there would have been 3500 more Irish men, women and children who would have got a shot at life and a further 33,000 who would not have been beaten, broken and maimed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate


Next Page

 


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.


You must be a member to post in non-music threads. Join here.



Mudcat time: 25 April 2:31 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 2022 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.