'Anglicana' - is this a new word?

Subject: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 May 07 - 11:27 PM

Just as I was starting to get used to seeing the expression "Americana" as a label for a type of music (although I was prety baffled to see it used on myspace to describe some distinctly not American almost-folk performers) I bumped into a label (on another mudcat thread) "Anglicana" used to label what Eliza Carthy does.

Interesting and possibly useful?

Discuss!

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 17 May 07 - 11:40 PM

G'day Richard,

At least it gets their records out of the "Celtic" pile!

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 May 07 - 12:02 AM

Not a type of music; just a CD title. Good CD, too.

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 18 May 07 - 02:21 AM

G'day Dick,

Maybe not:

Musica Anglicana - New Anglican church music home

Regard(les)s,

Bob

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 May 07 - 02:50 AM

Just means 'of the English'. It is the title of a rather good Eliza Carthy CD (bet her ears are red if she's reading this), but it's also a better way of describing English folk music and song, without lumping it all under Celtic which is rapidly becoming the musical equivelant of under the bed. You know what I mean... stuff that's too good to throw away but you're not sure what you're going to do with it, it's not stuff for the wardrobe, it won't fit in the underwear drawer and you can't remember where the other half of it is.

LTS

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 May 07 - 03:40 AM

I should clarify (although I thought my first post did). I actually know that it isn't a new word, but I couldn't fit the question I wanted to ask, namely ""Anglicana" - is this a fresh designation for a type of music and if so is it useful?" into the title box! I also know its a title of an Eliza Carthy CD, but the apparently new (on me) usage is that it describes the type of music that Eliza Carthy generally plays (a bit of a puzzler there as she does do a range of cross-cultural items) maybe meaning something like "of and arising out of the English tradition and/or the indigenous and internal cultures of England".

I think it probably is useful in this sense in that it avoids in a different way to that which I have previously suggested the need to distinguish betweeen "folk" and "non-folk" (an area where many on this forum are apparently simply not prepared to accept the normal academic distinctions, apparently for no other reason than cussedness), and does provide a label that avoids the obvious nonsense of labelling English folk as "Americana". Naturally what some English bands play will be Americana - I think at once of the Dartford Ramblers - and it also avoids the issue of calling it "American folk" when it may not be folk, and although the music is American they are not.

On balance I think at present I tend to favour it, despite the faint odour of churchiness (and hence vicars and choirboys) about it.

Back to you chaps and chapesses.

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 07 - 03:47 AM

If Eliza's stuff is Anglicana, are the Waterson's rabble- rousing hymns Baptista?

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 May 07 - 04:04 AM

Ah, but the Baptists didn't get all the good tunes... the Wesley family wrote some fantastic, stonking good hymns - and they were Methodists!

LTS

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 18 May 07 - 04:26 AM

I take it to mean simply 'things English' in the way that Canadian bookshops often have a section labelled 'Canadiana' for books on Canadian history, politics, geography, social affairs etc. I've never thought of it as having a connection to the Anglican church.

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 May 07 - 04:29 AM

Anglicana was released five years ago and Eliza C said at the time that she'd used the word deliberately to define music rooted in but not exclusively derived from the English tradition. A glance down the list of musicians and tunes explains exactly what she means.

The term also, obviously, serves to put distance between wifty-wafty Celticness and US-influenced snigger-snoggerness which retailers tend to shove under the f*lk umbrella, and encourage them to create a space in their racks dedicated to English trad or trad-inspired music.

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 May 07 - 04:48 AM

In that case, Countess, it would seem to be a good thing if the term in that sense passes from being an abum to the to the definition (or at least explanation) of a genre.

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 18 May 07 - 05:59 AM

Liz, they needed some good tunes to cheer them up as they had renounced some of the other devil's indulgences!

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 May 07 - 06:34 AM

Re getting English Folk out of the Celtic tray in record displays , A friend of mine was somewhat surprised to find an Alex Glasgow album filed under Scottish - On a Record stall - At a Folk Festival - And NO , I am NOT going to name names !

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: dj bass
Date: 18 May 07 - 06:35 AM

I like pretty much everything about Richard's posting of 03.40. Anglicana it is, for me!

dj

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: treewind
Date: 18 May 07 - 07:44 AM

Just like "traditional" - by definition, it'll become a new word if we go on using it!

As a word it possibly has a limited lifetime as it's designed to distinguish a type of music from other types of music that have names taht may not mean anything in the future. What will "Americana" meas in 5 years time? It might become very dated

It would be good if it wasn't necessary at all, but it was a good idea at the time, helping to raise the respectability and profile of English music in the folk world, and strangely echoing the rash of "English ceilidh" music craze that mostly saw off The American square dance craze in the 70's.

Anahata

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 18 May 07 - 07:48 AM

I didn't know that she played the Anglo!

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: GUEST, Hamish (lost cookie)
Date: 18 May 07 - 07:48 AM

Before I ask a related question, I will first say that I rather like the terms Americana and Anglicana which have a distinct meaning for me. It's certainly different from snigger-snogwriter - even if much if it is written by Real People like Richard Shindell f'rinstance.

I don't think we've got an equivalent Scottish term ("Scottish" still probably conjurs up Jimmy Shand and massed pipe bands playing Mull of Kintyre) Seeyoujimmycana, perhaps?

But "English" and "Anglicana" are two inter-related... Hmmm... I haven't thought this through exactly. Morris dancers and their music are "English". Boden & Spiers: they're "English", too. Waterson Carthy and that dynasty are primarilly "English". Except when Eliza writes her pop songs. They're "Anglicana". Where's the dividing line? I thought I knew when I started this post: now I'm not so sure.

Is it easier with Americana? American is anything from jazz to stadium rock via... Bob Dylan? Joni? Or is some of their stuff Americana? Nope that's not helped, either.

I know! Let's call it all "Celtic" - problem solved!!!

(And don't mention horses)

--
Hamish

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 May 07 - 07:55 AM

Except when Eliza writes her pop songs. They're "Anglicana"

No, that was Angels & Fags.

Let's call it all "Celtic"

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 07 - 08:07 AM

Let's call it all Indo-European.

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 May 07 - 08:19 AM

Or, indeed, World?

English music ought not be lumped in with Celtic for geographic, linguistic and cultural reasons. Celtic lands or regions (Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Cornwall, Isle of Man, Basque Country and (historically doubtful) Galicia and Asturia) differ distinctly from England.

But it is World Music.

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: Mooh
Date: 18 May 07 - 09:06 AM

Well, lots of folks in the Anglican religious tradition have coined the term independently, so it's not really a new word. Being of that tradition I'd find it weird if it became common in the "outside" music world. Funny how language works, ain't it?

Yeah, world music. ALL music is world music from some perspective.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 07 - 11:17 AM

"... wifty-wafty Celticness and US-influenced snigger-snoggerness ..."

Yes, that does make 'Anglicana' sound better already, if those are the alternatives.

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbins (no not that one!)
Date: 18 May 07 - 11:47 AM

The hunt to find labels is never ending isn't it? Enjoy the music for what it is....!!

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 May 07 - 12:16 PM

Brilliant term!

Round up the Angliques in one place and deport them to Rottingdean.

Then us English can keep an eye on 'em.

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 May 07 - 12:31 PM

I spy the 'wilfully ignorant brigade' (© Ruth Archer), bleating 'anything's good enough for f*lk', making a belated entrance.

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: Hamish
Date: 18 May 07 - 12:35 PM

Countess: "Celtic" was a joke...

Hamish

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 May 07 - 12:36 PM

Anglicana...Americana...Canadiana...no doubt Australiana.

Where does Santiana fit into all this?

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 May 07 - 12:39 PM

That should be "we English" if Anglicana is to apply to our language as well.

Is that "Non Anglii sed Angeli" I spy on the horizon?

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: GUEST,Mr. Gubbins (no not that one!)
Date: 18 May 07 - 01:31 PM

Wasn't it Louis Armstrong who said "All music is folk music, 'cause I never heard a horse sing"

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 May 07 - 01:41 PM

Angeli cigaretti/toqui/spliffique?

Lente, lente currite equos nocti.

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 18 May 07 - 02:03 PM

Just so. Beginners often seem to take the remark at face value, though, having failed to understand that it was a deliberately stupid answer to a stupid question.

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: Hamish
Date: 18 May 07 - 02:04 PM

Now, what did I say about mentioning horses, Mr Gubbins?

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 07 - 02:16 PM

What's all this nonsense about never hearing a horse sing?

http://www.tv.com/mister-ed/show/769/summary.html

http://www.tv.com/mi

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 May 07 - 02:24 PM

Or this:

Horses Never Smile (J Oates) But They Sing

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: GUEST,Val
Date: 18 May 07 - 02:30 PM

I seem to recall the term "Americana" being applied to plenty of things other than music for a goodly number of years. Most often to junque being sold as "Collectible" that seems to have an Olde-Timey feel and often "patriotic-seeming" or at least identifiably-American theme (carvings or paintings or beer steins including flags, stylized eagles, Mississippi riverboats and the like), but which is not old enough to pass as "Antique".

"Americana" seems to be primarily a label to help categorize stuff for sale - I am not aware of the word being used in any serious scholarship or history.

Words like Celtic, English, Folk, Traditional, etc. often ARE used with more-or-less precise definitions in serious study. Granted, they have also been co-opted by people who wish to shoehorn commodities such as music into marketing pigeonholes, but the words do continue to be used in other sense as well.

Anglicana is probably a good word to use when referring to the commodity-pigeonholing need rather than for any historical or linguistically-accurate purpose. And it needn't be associated with the Anglican church any more that Method Acting must be associated with the Methodist church.

Along the same line, perhaps a similar word could be coined for the neo-Celtic marketing craze. Celticana? Celtish? Celtoid? Alas, it's probably too late to make that change now.

Val

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 07 - 02:39 PM

and here was me thinking you meant Blue Horses, Hamish *LOL*

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 May 07 - 02:47 PM

If that was who Hamish meant he couldn't have been serious.

The neo-Celtic marketing craze = New-age tartan-tinged tat (sorry, more than one word).

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 May 07 - 06:00 PM

A lot of nonsense posted here.

Americana is an old word (1841). It means 'things typical of America', or American culture.
Canadiana has the same meaning with respect to things Canadian. Similarly: Africana, Sinica, Gallica, Scotica, Danica, etc., etc.

Trying to attach Anglicana specifically to English music, or to Anglican Church items or practices, etc., is an attempt to restrict a word that cannot be confined so closely.
Perhaps an unnecessary word; what is wrong with Musica britannica?

Why not Pax anglicana?... or Tynesid(e)iana?

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 18 May 07 - 06:15 PM

I rather like it as a general term. As mentioned above, anything's better than bloody Celtic. In a US ecclesiastical context, however, it would have to be 'presbyteriana'. And in a "bite your nadgers off" South American context, 'piranha'.
And, talking of EC, I heard her last month with the Ratcatchers and was knocked sideways by her voice. She has now ecipsed her mum (although you can hear Norma's intonation in every syllable); it's crept up and gone from just good to awesome.

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 May 07 - 07:39 PM

Captain Ginger, the more or less Anglican equivalent in the United States is Episcopalian (episcopaliana- phew!), not presbyterian.

By the way, the piranha is a good food fish. Nowadays much preferred by the natives to Anglicans and others of missionary flavor.

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: GUEST,Greycap
Date: 18 May 07 - 07:49 PM

Anglicana & Americana.
A super idea, totally descriptive to any reader with interest in music, and leads you further to the venue. Just great!!

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 May 07 - 08:27 PM

Wouldn't Angliana be a better term? Doesn't have the same dubious sectarian associations.

Agreed, "Celtic" is a pretty daft term. There's nothing particularly in common between the different traditions of "Celtic countries" that differentiates them from the musical traditions of their neighbours. Breton music is far closer to French music than it is to Irish music, for example, Gallego music is far closer to Spanish music and so forth.
So far as the similarities between much Irish music and much Scottish music is concerned, "Gaelic" is the appropriate term.

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 May 07 - 08:35 PM

Some while ago, a bunch of us were playing tunes in the back bar of an English country pub while the locals were watching some sort of sporting fixture on the telly in the front bar. (Dunno. Probably involved a ball.) England were getting thrashed by Ireland and a fan was heard to shout "and there playing bloody Irish music in the back room." Could we have shouted back "No. It's Anglicana" or even "No. It's Musica Britannica."? I think not.

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: Stewie
Date: 18 May 07 - 08:56 PM

It is perhaps worth mentioning that 'Anglicana' is also the title of a Show of Hands compilation CD (1999) that predates the Eliza Carthy CD of that title.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 07 - 09:56 PM

Anglicana was the title of a 1972 Jeff Beck bootleg!!!

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: GUEST,Alan Acing
Date: 18 May 07 - 09:59 PM

It's that Canal Again!

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: shepherdlass
Date: 19 May 07 - 06:21 AM

It works, it's less clunky than English folk music, as brands go, I like it!

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: shepherdlass
Date: 19 May 07 - 06:23 AM

Incidentally - I meant the term 'English folk music' was a clunky name to denote a record shop category ... not that the music itself is clunky (heaven forbid!)

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 19 May 07 - 08:05 AM

I first came across "Anglicana" in the context of three different "recorded as live" CDs with that name Show of Hands put together for 3 different tours in Australia, Canada and Germany around 1999.

Various of those (especially the Australian version) appeared on sale in the UK, but in the UK the official release of a compilation of all of those recording was on the Track Records CD "Show of Hands" that came out in 2000. It is the Show of Hands "best of" you can't buy from their own website or merch desk.

I found it a bit strange that Eliza recycled someone else in the folk world's CD title quite so quickly. SOH allowed a rather longer interval of about 30 years to elapse before nicking Roxy Music's Country Life CD title. There again, since SOH had never released a CD here with that title I guess she felt it too good to let go. For all I know she may not have known about the SOH CD from 3 years previously. It is actually quite a good word for the broad umbrella that is English folk and acoustic and for what both SOH and Eliza do. After all, Angels & Cigarettes isn't that different than Mr Knightley's latest solo opus Cruel River.

Subject: RE: 'Anglicana' - is this a new word?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 19 May 07 - 04:21 PM

I like Americana, and I approve of Angliana.

I also favour Scotiana and Hiberniana ...