BS: Another war in the Middle East?

Subject: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 07 - 09:03 AM

from the Washington Post:

Rocket From Gaza
The Middle East is on the brink of another summer war.

Friday, May 18, 2007; Page A22


FROM DAMASCUS, Hamas leader Khaled Meshal yesterday hailed what he called "a historic opportunity." He was referring to the death of several members of his own Islamic movement in airstrikes by Israel. Even while engaged in bloody street fighting with the rival Palestinian Fatah movement in the Gaza Strip this week, Hamas has been firing scores of crude rockets at the Israeli town of Sderot, hoping to draw the Israeli military into a fight in Gaza that would mimic its costly invasion of Lebanon last summer and unite Palestinians behind Hamas's extremist agenda. By last night, Mr. Meshal was dangerously close to getting his wish.

The growing willingness of Arab and European states to tolerate and even aid the Hamas movement has been based on the notion that Hamas could be coaxed toward more civilized behavior and tacit recognition of Israel; that is why many supported the creation of a "unity" government of Hamas with the secular and more moderate Fatah. But Mr. Meshal and his sponsors in Syria and Iran have a very different agenda: to use force to intimidate and eventually dominate Fatah, and to wage an unending war of attrition against Israel. That's the same course that Hezbollah, another proxy of Iran and Syria, has been pursuing in Lebanon.

Israel's dilemma is that it cannot stop rocket attacks from Gaza without invading and reoccupying the territory -- and maybe not even then -- but it also cannot indefinitely tolerate daily attacks on its own citizens and their homes. The government of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, which already is under heavy pressure to resign because of its failure to defeat Hezbollah, knows it is being invited into what Hamas regards as a trap, but the government hasn't found an alternative other than the limited airstrikes it launched yesterday. The government has resisted parts of a security plan offered by a U.S. envoy, Lt. Gen. Keith W. Dayton, that calls for Israel to help bolster a Fatah security force to check Hamas. It has also refused to extend a now-ruptured cease-fire from Gaza to the West Bank because it calculates that its operations against Palestinian militants in the West Bank are preventing suicide bombings in Israel.

Western and Arab intervention offers the best hope of heading off a war in Gaza that could easily spread back to Lebanon, and beyond. Egypt, which has allowed Hamas to smuggle hundreds of tons of weapons and explosives, needs to act decisively to seal its border with Gaza. Saudi Arabia and other Arab states should step up pressure on Hamas and on Syria, which is helping Hezbollah rearm in Lebanon. The Bush administration, which has focused much of its energy on a far-fetched attempt to start talks about a final Israeli-Palestinian settlement, needs to urgently mobilize its allies in pursuit of a more basic goal: preventing another summer war.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 07 - 09:06 AM

more from the Washington Post:
Prelude to the Six Days

By Charles Krauthammer
Friday, May 18, 2007; Page A23

There has hardly been a Middle East peace plan in the past 40 years -- including the current Saudi version -- that does not demand a return to the status quo of June 4, 1967. Why is that date so sacred? Because it was the day before the outbreak of the Six-Day War in which Israel scored one of the most stunning victories of the 20th century. The Arabs have spent four decades trying to undo its consequences.

In fact, the real anniversary should be now, three weeks earlier. On May 16, 1967, Egyptian President Gamal Nasser ordered the evacuation from the Sinai Peninsula of the U.N. buffer force that had kept Israel and Egypt at peace for 10 years. The United Nations complied, at which point Nasser imposed a naval blockade of Israel's only outlet to the south, the port of Eilat -- an open act of war.

How Egypt came to this reckless provocation is a complicated tale (chronicled in Michael Oren's magisterial "Six Days of War") of aggressive intent compounded with miscommunication and, most fatefully, disinformation. The Soviet Union had reported urgently and falsely to its Middle East clients, Syria and Egypt, that Israel was massing troops on the Syrian border for an attack. Israel desperately tried to disprove this charge by three times inviting the Soviet ambassador in Israel to visit the front. He refused. The Soviet warnings led to a cascade of intra-Arab maneuvers that in turn led Nasser, the champion of pan-Arabism, to mortally confront Israel with a remilitarized Sinai and a southern blockade.

Why is this still important? Because that three-week period between May 16 and June 5 helps explain Israel's 40-year reluctance to give up the fruits of that war -- the Sinai Peninsula, the Golan Heights, the West Bank and Gaza -- in return for paper guarantees of peace. Israel had similar guarantees from the 1956 Suez war, after which it evacuated the Sinai in return for that U.N. buffer force and for assurances from the Western powers of free passage through the Straits of Tiran.

All this disappeared with a wave of Nasser's hand. During those three interminable weeks, President Lyndon Johnson did try to rustle up an armada of countries to run the blockade and open Israel's south. The effort failed dismally.

It is hard to exaggerate what it was like for Israel in those three weeks. Egypt, already in an alliance with Syria, formed an emergency military pact with Jordan. Iraq, Algeria, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Tunisia, Libya and Morocco began sending forces to join the coming fight. With troops and armor massing on Israel's every frontier, jubilant broadcasts in every Arab capital hailed the imminent final war for the extermination of Israel. "We shall destroy Israel and its inhabitants," declared PLO head Ahmed Shuqayri, "and as for the survivors -- if there are any -- the boats are ready to deport them."

For Israel, the waiting was excruciating and debilitating. Israel's citizen army had to be mobilized. As its soldiers waited on the various fronts for the world to rescue the nation from its peril, Israeli society ground to a halt and its economy began bleeding to death. Army Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin, later to be hailed as a war hero and even later as a martyred man of peace, had a nervous breakdown. He was incapacitated to the point of incoherence by the unbearable tension of waiting with the life of his country in the balance, knowing that waiting too long would allow the armies of 100 million Arabs to strike first his country of 3 million.

We know the rest of the story. Rabin did recover in time to lead Israel to victory. But we forget how perilous was Israel's condition. The victory hinged on a successful attack on Egypt's air force on the morning of June 5. It was a gamble of astonishing proportions. Israel sent the bulk of its 200-plane air force on the mission, fully exposed to antiaircraft fire and missiles. Had they been detected and the force destroyed, the number of planes remaining behind to defend the Israeli homeland -- its cities and civilians -- from the Arab air forces' combined 900 planes was . . . 12.

We also forget that Israel's occupation of the West Bank was entirely unsought. Israel begged King Hussein of Jordan to stay out of the conflict. Engaged in fierce combat with a numerically superior Egypt, Israel had no desire to open a new front just yards from Jewish Jerusalem and just miles from Tel Aviv. But Nasser personally told Hussein that Egypt had destroyed Israel's air force and airfields and that total victory was at hand. Hussein could not resist the temptation to join the fight. He joined. He lost.

The world will soon be awash with 40th-anniversary retrospectives of the war -- and exegeses on the peace of the ages that awaits if Israel would only to return to lines of June 4, 1967. But Israelis are cautious. They remember the terror of that June 4 and of that unbearable May when, with Israel in possession of no occupied territories whatsoever, the entire Arab world was furiously preparing Israel's imminent extinction. And the world did nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 07 - 12:39 PM

Arabs despair over Palestinian violence By MAGGIE MICHAEL, Associated Press Writer
Thu May 17, 3:14 PM ET



CAIRO, Egypt - Arab governments appear at a loss how to stop the stunning wave of Palestinian factional fighting, which threatens to wreck the region's already faltering efforts to resume the Arab-Israeli peace process.

Arabs watched television footage of the Gaza fighting in despair. "May God curse you all," Egyptian columnist Ahmed Ragab wrote, referring to the Palestinian factions.

The chaos is a heavy blow to U.S. Arab allies who have tried for months to mediate an end to the disputes between the militant Hamas movement and the mainstream       Fatah faction led by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.

Regional power Saudi Arabia has stayed silent about the clashes in Gaza since they began five days ago, a sign of its anger at the two sides and its reluctance to get involved.

The kingdom put its political clout on the line in February when it hosted a summit between Abbas and Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal aimed at ending a previous bout of factional fighting. The summit in the holy city of Mecca ended with a deal on a Palestinian unity government that Saudi Arabia touted as a major breakthrough and is now in danger of collapse.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070517/ap_on_re_mi_ea/arabs_palestinians

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 07 - 12:41 PM

sorry about the ads...

no problem...j-clone

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 18 May 07 - 01:30 PM

Damn, I really sort of enjoyed the brief image I had of Mahmoud Abbas and Spiderman kickin' it old skool...

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 19 May 07 - 12:15 PM

It is no surprise that factional fighting has broken out again in Gaza.
The Israelis have been squeezing the life out of the city for a long time with its blockade,the bombings,shellings checkpoints and so much more.
Life is intolerable there for the Palestinians and the blame for much of that is the Israeli government and its military forces.
The Palestinian children are malnourished and terrorised, economic life has been savaged, schools and apartments have been attacked and whole neighbourhoods wrecked and electricity stations destroyed.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 May 07 - 12:30 PM

It is inevitable that competing paramilitary groups within a wartorn country, both of which want to dominate the local agenda, will end up fighting one another as well as fighting what they see as their common enemy. Such things happen again and again in human conflict. Why should it surprise anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 19 May 07 - 03:46 PM

And much of the Arab world is angry with Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 20 May 07 - 03:27 AM

"The Israelis have been squeezing the life out of the city for a long time with its blockade,the bombings,shellings checkpoints and so much more.
Life is intolerable there for the Palestinians and the blame for much of that is the Israeli government and its military forces.
The Palestinian children are malnourished and terrorised, economic life has been savaged, schools and apartments have been attacked and whole neighbourhoods wrecked and electricity stations destroyed." - ifor.

I could not disagree with what you have written more. The peace prosperity and well-being of the "Palestinians" can be had at the drop of a hat - all they have to do is acknowledge the right of existence of the Sovereign State of Israel.

There would be no blockade, bombings, shellings or checkpoints if indiscriminate attacks on Israeli civilians ceased. The ability to prevent such attacks lies entirely in the hands of the Palestinian Authority.

No group of "refugees" has had so much aid thrown in their direction with such little result. Mainly because that lying, thieving prat, Arafat ripped it off - look there for the cause of your malnourished Palestinian children. Saddam Hussein in his time offered relief to Palestinian families provided one of their children agreed to blow themselves up.

As for - "economic life has been savaged, schools and apartments have been attacked and whole neighbourhoods wrecked and electricity stations destroyed." You give the impression that the terrorists mounting attacks on Israel stear well clear of such places and that Israel deliberately destroys them out of spite. Nothing could be further from the truth. The members of Hezbollah, Hamas and Fatah deliberately embed themselves in such places and operate from them to provoke attack. Faced with the choice between which civilians die, Israel quite rightly, according to Little Hawk, responds with deliberate specifically targeted attacks on the rocket launching sites and weapons making facilities.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 20 May 07 - 08:14 AM

Reply to Teribus
Actually you sound like an apologist for the Zionists who have stolen the land,homes,towns cities and orchards of the Palestinians for many decades.
While Jewish people across the world have the right to settle in Israel the Palestinians and their children and grandchildren have no such right and are indeed barred from returning to their homes and homeland.There is the source of the conflict!
Even Palestinian citizens of Israel who remained in their homes after the founding of the state of Israel are treated like fourth class citizens in Israeli law.
Gaza is one of the most overcrowded places in the world.Before 1948 it was essentially a stretch of sand dunes before being populated by Palestinians fleeing Israeli terror gangs and the new Israeli military forces.
Israel must be one of the most divided and psychologically disturbing countries in the world.Its rulers have built a well named apartheid Wall across the land ,chopping up villages and dividing them from their hinterland but despite the shootings,the bombings,the mass arrests and daily humiliations th Israeli State cannot subdue the Palestinian people.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 May 07 - 09:04 AM

"The members of Hezbollah, Hamas and Fatah deliberately embed themselves in such places"

Wrong - they are their homes.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 07 - 12:18 PM

"Actually you sound like an apologist for the Zionists who have stolen the land,homes,towns cities and orchards of the Palestinians for many decades."

BULLSHIT!

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 07 - 12:21 PM

Look to Hamas. You want the seat of the present problem, LOOK THERE. You have rewritten Israel's history on many other threads. Don't start the same bullshit on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 20 May 07 - 03:40 PM

To the misnamed Peace,
It obviously comes as a surprise to you that the state of Israel has lost the support of millions of people across the world.

It is a highly militarised ,oppressive and theocratic regime that has grown more thuggish with each passing decade.

The armed paramilitary settlers who are occupying the West Bank and Hebron are utter thugs who seem to think nothing about grabbing yet more land ,water and orchards from the Palestinians they are terrorising.

Mudcatters who want to see a little of the reality of the occupation might want to go to "Liveleak" to see these paramiliaries and their children at work, on camera , taunting ,threatening and assaulting Palestinians trying to get home from school or going about their daily business.
As for Hamas it has grown in influence and importance precisely because of the failure of the secular led Fatah parties in the face of the ruthlessness of the Israeli armed forces.
One last point an international report has come out this very week condemning Israel's policies with regard to East Jerusalem and the treatment of its Palestinian residents.
Heddwch
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 07 - 05:07 PM

To the racist, ifor. Piss on you.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 07 - 05:16 PM

When I see you post that the various Islamic countries that surround Israel are as concerned about the plight of the Palestinians as you feel the Israelis should be, I will begin to read what you have to say. AgFor tenth time on this and other threads you just come across as a Jew hater.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 20 May 07 - 05:35 PM

It is a typical of the Zionists to shout anti semite at any opponent of Israel's murderous policies towards the Palestinian people.Within a few posts you have resorted to a sort of inane incoherent name calling.

Israel has been led by three open terrorists in its fairly recent past so I can see where you get your hatred from.

Shamir,Begin and Sharon were all leaders of terrorist death squads in their time and Sharon of course is remembered throughout the world as the "Butcher of Beirut" unleashing slaughter on that city in the early 1980s and mass murder on the Palestinian camps .The Lebanese fascists did the wet work with their knives while the Israeli forces controlled the perimeter, provided intelligence and the floodlighta and gave the green light to begin the slaughter of thousands of old men,women and children.
His dirty work has continued like a thread with last summer's attack on the civilian population of Lebanon....the neighbourhoods bombed,civilian convoys slaughtered, refugees gunned down and so much more.
With friends like you Israel is in serious trouble.....its got the guns and the military machine but it will never subdue the Palestinian people who have lived on that land for thousands of years .
heddwch.... but with justice
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 20 May 07 - 05:37 PM

It is typical of Jew haters to find fault only with Israel and never with Israel's neighbours. Go choke on your own barf.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 May 07 - 07:16 PM

You've stepped ober the line Peace - change your handle.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 May 07 - 07:31 PM

"Mudcatters who want to see a little of the reality of the occupation might want to go to "Liveleak" to see these paramilitaries and their children at work, on camera , taunting ,threatening and assaulting Palestinians trying to get home from school or going about their daily business."

"typical of Jew haters to find fault only with Israel and never with Israel's neighbours"

Peace = your denial of such activity marks you as no different from those who deny the Holocaust.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 21 May 07 - 04:28 AM

On the subject of "stolen" land Guest ifor:

Gaza - captured, occupied and kept by the Egyptian Army in 1948, it was originally part of the "Jewish Homeland" during the Mandate.

Golan - Certain parts were captured, occupied and kept by the Syrian Army in 1948.

The West Bank - captured, occupied and kept by the Jordanian Army in 1948.

Ifor anyone can go to Israel, anyone can settle in Israel, provided that they recognise and acknowledge the right of the State of Israel to exist and to live peacefully and abide by the laws of the land.

Foolestroupe, CNN ran a documentary piece about a couple of days ago on the subject of rocket attacks on Israel from inside Gaza. The "Guides" were members of Hamas who showed CNN's reporter the whole process of rocket manufacture. The most dangerous part of the process was the production of the rocket propellant, fumes given off during this process apparently are highly toxic and had recently killed one of their number, this facility was based in a school - that is what I was meant when I stated that Hamas and other like-minded organisations embed themselves amongst the most vulnerable in society - but there again I believe that you did actually know that. Now were I a parent of any child at that school, I would tell Hamas to move their production facilities elsewhere - For this, myself and my family would probably be killed by those who are supposed to be "protecting" me and "fighting for my rights" - Right Foolestroupe.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 21 May 07 - 04:59 AM

"It is no surprise that factional fighting has broken out again in Gaza." - Guest ifor.

Any surprise or explanation for the fighting currently underway in North Lebanon ifor? Islamic Terrorist Group based within a "Palestinian" Refugee Camp who launched and attack upon Lebanese Army posts and units.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:15 AM

"Now were I a parent of any child at that school, I would tell Hamas to move their production facilities elsewhere"

But it is claimed that these are outsiders who do not care bout the locals, so you wold just be shot, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:22 AM

Who calims they are not local?
They are, and they use their own as human shields.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:38 AM

I haven't a clue as to whether or not they are locals Foolestroupe. But one thing is certain, neither they (the terrorist organisations), those who finance them, neighbouring Arab Governments or the elected representatives of the "Palestinian" people have EVER given a toss for the "Palestinian" people - that and that alone has been their biggest burden since 1948 and the greatest tragedy in the whole sorry mess.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:55 AM

And neither have most of the rest of the world...

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 21 May 07 - 12:16 PM

Irrelevant Foolestroupe, those I mentioned have a duty and an obligation to do what is in the best interests of the "Palestinian" people. After nearly sixty years they should have by now come to the conclusion that the way forward does not lie in the purchase of arms, use of suicide bombers and the endless repetition of empty promises. Had the "Palestinian" people been given leadership instead of Tosser Arafat, they would be better off and more prosperous than Monaco according to the aid that has been thrown at them.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,IFOR
Date: 21 May 07 - 01:09 PM

To Teribus
You mention the arms purchased by the Palestinians in the on going conflict...however it is Israel which is one of the most highly militarised [and ironically one of the most dangerous] places in the world today.
Israel has one of the largest armies in the world...it is equipped with all the latest military hardware from America ..and has a range of modern fighters,bombers,tanks ,artillery helicopter gunships etc which is more than ready to use against its enemies, and more accurately, civilian populations of neighbouring countries.

Any other country would have gone bankrupt from the cost of this arms economy but Israel is the largest recipient of US aid in the world.
While Palestinian suicide bombers get themselves blown up the equivalent Israeli bombers drop their high explosives or napalm on civilians and then go home for a nice cup of coffee and a dessert.

It is true that the Palestinian leadership has been poor but it is also true that the Israeli leaders are war criminals,human rights abusers and no respectors of the United Nations...and time and time again they have missed opportunities to make a lasting peace that involves justice for the Palestinians.
They have reaped a whirlwind and the events of last summer when they got a drubbing in Lebanon show that time is also running out for the warhawks in Israel.
The current Israeli president is facing rape charges which somehow epitomises the stature of the leaders in Israel today.Zionism is a dead end and a pessimistic and thuggish set of policies.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:38 PM

Nothing to say about Israeli land taken by force in 1948 then ifor?

Nothing to offer by way of explanation as to why people based in a "Palestinian" Refugee Camp in Northern Lebanon are attacking those who have given them refuge (Damn sight more than Syria ever offered - True?) Mind you those "Palestinian" Refugees in Lebanon are only sticking to previous form. When they were the guests of the Jordanians they tried to destabisle Jordan and overthrow the government there - That ifor was why they had to move to Lebanon - Tosser Arafat disappeared to Tunisia, where he made millions.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:47 PM

You say Fatah and I say Hamas....let's call the whole thing off.


F.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:22 PM

Up yours, Foolestroupe. The fact that you too hate Israel then makes your remarks about Israel noting much to read about. You claim to expect fairness for the Palestinian people but you don't want that for the Israelis. Crossed the line? Go admonish someone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:23 PM

Let's see where you are really at, Foolestroupe. Has Hamas ever done anything wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:38 PM

And where we differ, Foolestroupe, is that I do see when Isreal is wrong. You and your friend have spent countless hours posting against Israel with never a bad word about anything the Palestinians or their neighbours do to contribute to the problem. Stepped over a line? Yeah, right.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:02 PM

"This is the Charter of the Islamic Resistance (Hamas) which will reveal its face, unveil its identity, state its position, clarify its purpose, discuss its hopes, call for support to its cause and reinforcement, and for joining its ranks. For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allah's victory prevails. Thus we shall perceive them approaching in the horizon, and this will be known before long: "Allah has decreed: Lo! I very shall conquer, I and my messenger, lo! Allah is strong, almighty.""

from the Hamas Charter (1988)

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:06 PM

And speaking of genocide: "A senior Hamas leader in Gaza declared that it was signed and sealed within his party that Israel would be wiped off the map and replaced by a Palestinian State, Israel Radio reported. He added that rockets and missiles were the means of removing Israel from the picture."

That is from the Jerusalem Post.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:16 PM

"Israel threatens to kill Hamas leaders"

Kuwait Times (?).

But then the lines are already drawn, aren't they, between those warmongering Jews and the peace-seeking folks in Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:28 PM

And the coming unrest in Lebanon. Gee, I wonder who Shaker Al-Absi really is?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:30 PM

One thing I think most of us can agree on is that the Bush foriegn policy toward the Middle East is a complete and utter failure...

I blame him for not continuing a foriegn policy of trying to cajole Middle Eastern folks to get along... This policy goes back to the days of Richard Nixon and continued thru half a dozen presidents, some which had more success than others but when Bush stole the office his first order was to tell his staff to do 180 degrees opposite what Clinton did, regardless of the issue...

This made his Christian Right and redneck base all warm and fuzzy but it sho nuff didn't help in the Middle East...

All this crap didn't have to happen...

BObert

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 May 07 - 01:29 AM

"The fact that you too hate Israel "

Peace - that's defamatory - I do not "hate Israel."

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 May 07 - 01:35 AM

"You and your friend have spent countless hours posting against Israel with never a bad word about anything the Palestinians or their neighbours do"

For a start , I have no 'friends' here on Mudcat - just a few acquaintainces I met thru the net - most of whom are polite.

"spent countless hours posting against Israel with never a bad word about anything the Palestinians or their neighbours do"

Wrong. Check my postings.

I think you've lost the plot and if you continue to spout wild defamatory accusations, I'll have to make a formal complaint against you. Take your meds, mate, I do.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Dickey
Date: 22 May 07 - 02:00 AM

"All this crap didn't have to happen" Run that by me again Bobert.

    * 1948 Arab-Israeli -War Truman
    * 1956 Suez War -Eisenhower
    * 1967 Six Day War -Johnson
    * 1970 War of Attrition -Nixon
    * 1973 Yom Kippur War -Nixon
    * 1982 Lebanon War -Reagan
    * 1987-1993 First Intifada -Reagan-Clinton (awk awk)
    * 1982-2000 South Lebanon conflict -Reagan-Clinton (awk awk)
    * 2000-2006 al-Aqsa Intifada Clinton(awk awk)-Bush
    * 2006 Lebanon War -Bush

Now which ones of these didn't have to happen?

You need to read this book It takes away the egos of the scholars who usually arm themselves with complicated conclusions so they can sound like they know what they are talking about when nobody, in 2,000 years, has been able to successfully navigate the Middle East to peace

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 May 07 - 07:24 AM

from the Washington Post:

Storm-Watching in Jordan

By Richard Cohen
Tuesday, May 22, 2007; Page A15

AMMAN, Jordan -- The lobby of the Grand Hyatt Hotel here looks as it always has. The reception desk is to the right, the jewelry shop is off to the left, and straight ahead is the lounge area -- no hint that back in 2005, suicide bombers walked into this and two other hotels here and killed 59 people. Since then, nothing much has happened. Call it the quiet after the storm -- or, more likely, the quiet before the storm resumes.

Jordan, this oil-less concoction of a Middle East state, is as good a place as any to grasp the extent of the American debacle in Iraq. Jordan is also a place to understand that the debacle is not solely an American one and that the debate in Washington -- cut and run, stay the course, surge, don't surge -- has a meaning here far beyond domestic politics or even international morality. Soon, this country could have an awful fight on its hands.

Here is the scenario: The implication of a U.S. withdrawal/defeat would not be lost on any of the region's many extremist groups -- Hamas in Gaza; Hezbollah in Lebanon; al-Qaeda all over the place; and Iran behind the curtain, the puppet master of much regional terrorism. A withdrawal would empower, enthuse and just plain excite these groups. If America can be defeated in Iraq, then why not Jordan in Jordan or Egypt in Egypt -- to name just two pro-American regimes in this neck of the woods -- followed, of course, by the final battle with Israel? This is not the way the so-called war on terrorism was supposed to go.

more

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: C. Ham
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:56 AM

As Senator Barack Obama points out, "nobody has suffered more than the Palestinian people from the failure of the Palestinian leadership to recognize Israel, to renounce violence and to get serious about negotiating peace and security for the region."

Had the Palestinians opted for leadership that was not based totally on corruption (Arafat) or religious fundamentalism and fascism (Hamas), there would have been peace and a Palestinian state long ago. The vast majority of Israelis are starving for secure peaceful co-existence with a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 May 07 - 09:00 AM

Agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 22 May 07 - 09:42 AM

"Wrong. Check my postings."

Then tell us all what Hamas has done that's bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 22 May 07 - 09:43 AM

"Take your meds, mate, I do."

Double the dose.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 22 May 07 - 09:54 AM

Besides, Foolestroupe (and there's no need for you to change YOUR name), my remarks to that other guy had nothing to do with you. You stuck your face in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: robomatic
Date: 22 May 07 - 12:41 PM

On the Gaza front there's the Hamas militia sending so many home made attack rockets into Israel that the Israelis have pulled people away from their own village.

On the Lebanese side the Lebanese army has taken on religious militant groups which true to form have withdrawn into the civilian depths of refugee camps. Now the UN wants to bring supplies in.

This is a long term problem which has not been directly addressed by the Arab parties in the Middle East - to resettle Palestinian refugees just as Israel has resettled Jewish AND Arab refugees. The unrealistic attempt to foist it all off on Israel has yet to be abandoned and the Saudis, Egyptians, and Syrians have yet to accept their own responsibilities in the area.

Jordan is already a Palestinian State.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 May 07 - 01:15 PM

U.N. Relief Convoy Hit in Lebanon Battle
AP - Tue, 22 May 2007 11:45:58 -0400 (EDT)
By SCHEHEREZADE FARAMARZI
A convoy of U.N. relief supplies was hit in a third day of fighting Tuesday between Lebanese troops and an Islamic militant group holed up in a crowded Palestinian refugee camp.

In two other refugee camps in Lebanon, angry Palestinians burned tires to protest the Lebanese army assault on the northern camp of Nahr el-Bared. The unrest heightened fears that the military's attempt to crush the al-Qaida-inspired Fatah Islam could provoke a broader backlash among hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in other refugee camps, where Islamic extremists have been growing in influence.

Overnight, the Lebanese government ordered the army to finish off the militants who have set up in Nahr el-Bared, where 31,000 Palestinian refugees live on the outskirts of the northern port of Tripoli. At least 50 combatants have been killed since fighting erupted Sunday.

Black smoke billowed from the area Tuesday amid artillery and machine gun exchanges between troops and militants. Lebanese troops skirmished with Fatah Islam fighters, trying to seize militant positions on the outskirts of the camp.

"There are dead and wounded on the road, inside the camp," screamed a Lebanese woman, Amina Alameddine, who ran weeping from her home on the edge of the camp. She fled with her daughter and four other relatives after Fatah Islam fighters started shooting at the army from the roof of her house.

At the same time, Lebanese troops sought to flush out fighters hiding in Tripoli. Soldiers raided a building where Fatah Islam militants were believed to be hiding out, blasting an apartment with grenades, gunfire and tear gas.

They found no one in the apartment, but hours later, while pursuing a militant, they ordered him to surrender. He dropped a pistol but then detonated an explosives belt on his body, police officials said. None of the troops was injured.

Reports emerged from Nahr el-Bared of heavy destruction from the three days of bombardment by Lebanese artillery and tanks and militants who returned fire with mortars and automatic weapons.

"The shelling is heavy, not only on our positions, but also on children and women. Destruction is all over," Fatah Islam spokesman Abu Salim Taha told The Associated Press by telephone from inside the camp.

A U.N. refugee official said dozens of buildings were believed demolished, with residents trapped inside. There was also word that food and medical supplies were running out. The reports could not be confirmed because officials and reporters could not enter the camp.

more

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 May 07 - 01:24 PM

Truce broken at Lebanon camp; U.N. workers trapped

POSTED: 1:15 p.m. EDT, May 22, 2007

Story Highlights• NEW: Talks ongoing to help between 8 and 10 trapped U.N. workers
• Cease-fire broken as U.N. trucks fired on in Palestinian camp
• Fatah al-Islam militant blows himself up in Tripoli
• Up to 75 dead in fighting between Lebanese soldiers and militants

TRIPOLI, Lebanon (CNN) -- A truce declared by the militant group Fatah al-Islam in a Palestinian refugee camp in Lebanon ended soon after it was announced Tuesday, when a U.N. relief convoy in the camp came under fire.

A U.N. relief official in Beirut told CNN that three of the group's vehicles were hit, and between eight and 10 U.N. workers trapped inside the Nahr al-Bared camp were trying to get out.

Three other U.N. trucks managed to get out of the camp, which is outside Tripoli. It's not clear who fired on the convoy or whether it was specifically targeted. U.N. officials in Beirut said it wasn't known if anyone in the convoy had been injured. (Watch an explanation of what's behind the fighting )

CNN senior international correspondent Nic Robertson, reporting from Tripoli, quotes U.N. officials as saying they are negotiating with both the army and the militants for the safe passage of the aid workers stranded in the camp.

Battles between Lebanese soldiers and militants have killed at least 30 troops and as many as 25 militants, according to Bilal Aslan, who belongs to the Fatah movement of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. The fighting has also left 20 civilians dead, he said.

Earlier Tuesday, Fatah al-Islam had declared a unilateral cease-fire from 11:30 GMT (7:30 a.m. ET), and the Lebanese Army said it would not open fire unless fired upon.

Spokeswoman Hoda Samara, in Beirut for the U.N. Relief and Works Agency, said the trucks were loaded with water, food and medical supplies.

She said the medical situation was particularly bad, as there is no hospital inside Nahr al-Bared and the agency's health center had been closed by the fighting.

Shortly after the cease-fire was announced, Aslan said Fatah al-Islam would pull all gunmen from the streets and prevent them from using the camp's rooftops to fire weapons.

Also, food supplies would be distributed to residents and the wounded would be evacuated to hospitals, Aslan said.

more

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 22 May 07 - 01:24 PM

The problem for the Zionists and the Israeli state is that the Palestinian people will not go peacefully into the dustbin of history or be dispersed across the world without a struggle.
The Palestinian people have lived on the land that they call Palestine for thousands of years often alongside smaller Christian and Jewish populations for much of that time.
Quite reasonably they have objected to being expelled from the land of their birth.They have fought back when their homes and towns and farms and water supplies have been seized by the armed invaders. They want the right to return! The same right that Jewish people across the world have.
For decades they have been imprisoned in large numbers,pushed over the new borders,bombed,assassinated,humiliated at the checkpoints and tortured by the Israeli state apparatus [check out Amnesty and other Human Rights reports}
.All the posturing,blustering and menacing of the Zionists on Mudcat and elsewhere cannot hide the fact of the enormous injustice done to the people of Palestine and the resistance that is continuing to the Israeli state terror.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: robomatic
Date: 22 May 07 - 01:48 PM

The sufferings of the Palestinian people are incontrovertible and a shame on the Arab world.

After the birth of Israel and the partial resolution (by a battle of self defense) of the legitimate rights of the Jewish people to obtain access to their ancestral homeland, Jews were often forceably evicted from many Arab lands, Jews who had lived within them for longer than the religion of Islam has existed. Many of these Jews are descended from the original tribes and were and are indistinguishable ethnically from Arabs, who are, after all, cousins of the Jews.

The Arab and Muslim nations who evicted much of their Jewish populations and expropriated their property did not in turn make an effort to alleviate the very real problem of displaced non-Jewish Arabs who had often left their homes in anticipation of an Arab military victory over the Jews.

This is a shame, but it is not the fault of Israel. To blame Israel makes me recall the book "Unfair to Goliath" Goliath's mother and wife lament much as many current 'palestinians'

"My children keep asking, 'When is Daddy coming home? Has he killed all the Jews yet?'"

Unfortunately, rather than seeking compromise, peace, and resolution, too many of the Arabs and 'palestinians' have followed the road to hate, prejudice, and nazification in the name of a perverted approach to their own religion. And it is winding up as a war among Muslims, as a battle of Arabs on Arabs.

And it all could have been avoided.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 May 07 - 03:10 PM

Ifor,

"THE DIVISION OF THE MANDATE FOR PALESTINE

In 1923 the British "chopped off" 75% of the proposed Jewish Palestinian homeland to form an Arab Palestinian Nation of "Trans-Jordan," meaning "across the Jordan River." The Palestinian Arabs now had THEIR homeland... the remaining 25% of the original Palestinian territory (west of the Jordan River) was to be the Jewish Palestinian homeland. However, sharing was not part of the Arab psychological makeup then or now and they were determined to get ALL of that remaining 25%. Encouraged and incited by growing Arab nationalism throughout the Middle East, the Arabs of that small remaining Palestinian territory launched never-ending murderous attacks upon the Jewish Palestinians in an effort to drive them out. Most terrifying were the Hebron slaughters of 1929 and later the 1936-39 "Arab Revolt." The British, at first tried to maintain order but soon (due to the large oil deposits being discovered throughout the Arab Middle East) turned a blind eye. It became obvious to the Palestinian Jews that they must fight the Arabs AND drive out the British.

The year was 1922, the British were empowered by the League of Nations to fulfill the Mandate of Palestine drafted two years earlier at the San Remo Conference. The Mandate that they accepted, under article 4, obliged them "to secure the cooperation of all willing Jews" and "to assist in the establishment of the Jewish National home". However, in the same year, the 1922 White Paper written by Colonial Secretary Winston Churchill declared that Palestine should not be "as Jewish as England is English". This was allegedly to prevent partitioning the land into two (Arab and Jewish). Although the Churchill´s White Paper stated that the Mandate "is not susceptible of change" the British sliced 76% of the land, east of the Jordan River, and gave it Emir Abdullah (from Hejaz, now Saudi Arabia). That land was renamed Trans-Jordan. Not even a year had passed and Great Britain was in violation of Article 5 of its Mandate, which stated "no Palestine territory shall be ceded or leased to, or in any way placed under the control of, the Government of any foreign Power." From this point on, Jewish immigration to newly partitioned Trans-Jordan was forbidden whilst a blind eye was turned to Arab immigration to the west [of the Jordan River], in complete violation of article 2, which demanded "safeguarding the civil rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion"."


Now, HOW MANY Jews are presently living in JORDAN?

HOW many Moslems in Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 May 07 - 03:13 PM

"Quite reasonably they have objected to being expelled from the land of their birth."


BTW, what about the GREATER number of Jews driven out of the Arab nations?

Or do you insist that Arab Jews are not supposed to have the "rights" that YOU have denanded for the Palestinian Arabs?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 22 May 07 - 03:24 PM

"Way back on March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein. Here's what he said:

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism."


From here.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 23 May 07 - 12:09 PM

The Palestinian people have considered themselves to be "Palestinian " for many , many years.It is how they describe themselves and it is really not the role of others [American,French or indeed Welsh ] to argue that point with them.

What is clear is that the Palestinian people whether Muslim or Christian have lived on that land for thousands of years...of course alongside other people including a relatively small Jewish population.

Incidentally the largest Jewish population in the ancient world was probably in the city of Alexandria which is now in Egypy ].
The biblical claim for an exclusive Jewish presence on the Holy Land is relatively weak.

One of the points I am making is that Israel/Palestine has been historically occupied by many different peoples of varying cultures and religions.However,it was the Zionist invasions and occupation which began in the late 19th century which has poisoned relations in Israel /Palestine in particular but across the Middle East in general.
These Zionists have been backed by US and Western capitalist interests,hence the booming Israeli arms economy and military machine.

However for the indiginous pre Zionist Jewish community life has been difficult under a Jewish theocracy with many treated as second class citizens partly as a result of their dark skin but also because they were seen as fairly close to the Palestinian neighbours.

The settler paramilitary groups ,however, [often with US or Russian accents] are really swaggering goons with their uzi guns contempt for the Palestinians who they want to drive over the border.These are the goons who taunt,threaten and assault,steal water and land grab.Take a close look at their housing built like fortresses on hilltops and totally out of keeping with historical Palestine...they indeed paved Palestine and put up aparking lot and a shopping mall.

Tens of thousands will be marching in support of a "Free Palestine"in London in early June to show that the Palestinian decades long struggle has international support including the support of many Jewish people from around the world.
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 May 07 - 02:00 PM

" exclusive Jewish presence "
???


Oh, you mean that ISRAEL, instead of having the large Moslem and Christen population that it does SHOULD be more like

Saudi Arabia, which allows ONLY Moslems to be citizens.

Jordan, which prohibits Jews from becoming citizens.

Or one of a host of OTHER nations, which require a specific religion to be a citizen of.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 May 07 - 02:09 PM

BTW, my questions still stand:

Now, HOW MANY Jews are presently living in JORDAN - the Palestinian Moslem Homeland)?

HOW many Moslems in Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 23 May 07 - 02:43 PM

As Guest ifor seems reluctant for some reason to answer your question BB, the answers are as follows:

Question 1
Now, HOW MANY Jews are presently living in JORDAN - the Palestinian Moslem Homeland)?

Answer
None it is against the law for a Jew to reside in Jordan under the terms of that country's Civil Law No. 6

Question 2
HOW many Moslems in Israel?

Answer
16.2% of the total population of 7.15 million people which means that there are approximately 1,158,300 Moslems living in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 May 07 - 02:45 PM

And ISRAEL is too exclusively Jewish for Ifor???????????

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 May 07 - 02:48 PM

Ifor,

Let me repeat, since you have not yet answered:

"Quite reasonably they have objected to being expelled from the land of their birth."


BTW, what about the GREATER number of Jews driven out of the Arab nations?

Or do you insist that Arab Jews are not supposed to have the "rights" that YOU have demanded for the Palestinian Arabs?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 May 07 - 04:35 PM

Lebanon issues ultimatum to militants

By SCHEHEREZADE FARAMARZI and SAM F. GHATTAS, Associated Press Writers
51 minutes ago


NAHR EL-BARED REFUGEE CAMP, Lebanon - Lebanon's defense minister issued an ultimatum Wednesday to Islamic militants barricaded in this Palestinian refugee camp to surrender or face a military onslaught.

Fighters from the al-Qaida-inspired       Fatah Islam militant group vowed not to give up and to fight any Lebanese assault.

Storming the Nahr el-Bared camp — a densely built-up town of narrow streets on the Mediterranean coast — could mean rough urban fighting for Lebanese troops and further death and destruction for the thousands of civilians who remain inside.

It could also have grave repercussions elsewhere across troubled Lebanon, sparking unrest among the country's estimated 400,000 Palestinian refugees. Already some of the other refugee camps in Lebanon, which are rife with armed groups, are seething with anger over the fighting.

But the military appeared determined to uproot Fatah Islam after three days of heavy bombardment of the camp, sparked by an attack by the militants on Lebanese troops Sunday following a raid on its fighters in the nearby northern city of Tripoli.

"Preparations are seriously under way to end the matter," Defense Minister Elias Murr said in an interview with Al-Arabiya television. "The army will not negotiate with a group of terrorists and criminals. Their fate is arrest, and if they resist the army, death."

Members of Fatah Islam said they were ready to fight.

"We are not going to let those pigs defeat us," said one of a half-dozen fighters standing outside the group's office inside the camp. The fighter, who identified himself with the pseudonym Abu Jaafar, wore a belt hung with grenades.

Another militant who said he was a deputy leader of the group said the fighters were willing to agree to a cease-fire if the military allowed them to remain in the camp.

But the militant, who gave his pseudonym as Abu Hureira, warned the troops would "face a massacre" if they attempt to enter Nahr el-Bared. It is unclear how many Fatah Islam fighters are in the camp, but Abu Hureira said they number more than 500.

Around half of Nahr el-Bared's 31,000 residents have fled since a halt in the fighting Tuesday night, some clutching babies and plastic bags full of clothes. They traveled on foot and in cars past burned-out shops on streets strewn with broken glass, garbage and dead rats.

But thousands remain behind, either too ill to travel or unwilling to abandon their homes, and are now in danger of being caught in the crossfire.

Ahmed Kanaan, 92, was staying in the camp with his 37-year-old daughter. "We are treated like dogs," said the old man, who fled his home in what is now the Israeli city of Nazareth in 1948 after the first Arab-Israeli war. "They step on us and continue walking."

"I would have been better off had Palestine died altogether" in 1948, he said.

Occasional gunshots broke the quiet at the camp Tuesday night, witnesses said, but there was no fighting during the day Wednesday. In the afternoon, the army brought seven more armored carriers to its positions ringing the camp, although the troops did not move beyond the front line.

Army officials in Beirut refused to comment on the reinforcements.

Murr said 30 Lebanese soldiers were killed in the three days of fighting, along with as many as 60 militants, including fighters from Lebanon, Jordan,       Syria and Saudi Arabia. But a top Fatah Islam leader said only 10 of his men were killed.

U.N. relief officials said the bodies of at least 20 civilians were retrieved from inside the camp during the lull in fighting.

The government appeared to be preparing in case the showdown sparks violence elsewhere in the country. In a sign of the danger, a bomb exploded Wednesday night in a mountain resort overlooking Beirut, a 90-minute drive south of Nahr el-Bared. The blast, which injured five people, was the third in the Beirut area since Sunday.

Fatah Islam denied responsibility for the other two bombings, which killed a woman and injured a dozen people. But many Lebanese fear more blasts if the siege continues.

After dark, soldiers have set up checkpoints across Beirut and its suburbs, stopping vehicles and searching male passengers as a precaution.

Lebanon has 12 Palestinian refugee camps, which are all plagued by poverty and overcrowding. The camps are home to many armed factions, as well as Islamic militant groups which have sent fighters to       Iraq to join the fight against U.S.-led coalition troops.

The Lebanese military stays out of the camps under a 1969 agreement that allows the Palestinians to run them.

Major Palestinian factions — including the mainstream Fatah and militant Hamas and Islamic Jihad groups — have distanced themselves from the militants in Nahr el-Bared. Unlike them, Fatah Islam adheres to al-Qaida ideology and appears to have a large number of non-Palestinian fighters.

But the Palestinian factions appeared divided over whether to send their fighters to help the Lebanese military against Fatah Islam.

Sultan Abuleinein, the Fatah chief in Lebanon, hinted his group might intervene, calling for the liberation of Nahr el-Bared from "the plague" of the militants in an interview with al-Arabiya television.

But Abbas Zaki, a PLO representative in Lebanon, denied that the major Palestinian factions supported a Lebanese storming of the camp or that they were willing to join. "Beware of being deceived that there is a decision by Fatah to fight," he told Al-Jazeera television.

A group claiming to be made up of Palestinians from Lebanon's largest refugee camp — Ein el-Hilweh — has posted a statement on an Islamic militant Web site warning that it would form "jihadi groups" — holy warriors — to fight alongside Fatah Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 23 May 07 - 05:31 PM

A few of the above seem to be an apologist for ethnic cleansing.....something the Zionists were very good at in 1948 when they conducted a systematic slaughter of Palestinian civilians in Palestine.This period was known as the Nakbha [or the catastrophe ] by the people of Palestine who were forced into exile for fear of being shot or baynotted by the Israeli death squads or military forces.

They had to watch traumatised as their villages and towns were bulldozed and their land ,orchards and farms confiscated and handed over to the invaders.

It is interesting that in one of the more recent Israeli attacks the IDF blew up the Palestinian Orient House where many of the pre Israel legal and land documents had been stored for reference and ownership purposes...all part of the process of writing the Palestinians out of the history of the their own land.

The Zionists who criticise above know better but bluster and blow to obscure the fact that Israel was founded on wholesale theft of land,ethnic cleansing,the use of Zionist terror squads and in defiance of UN resolutions.This whole savage business is being continued to this day with the invasion of Lebanon last summer,the strangulation of Gaza and the starving of its children,the theft of millions in tax from the Palestionian Gazans,the stealing of water supplies from the Jordan river by Israeli agribusiness and the building of the apartheid Wall and the continual encroachment of paramilitary settlements on Palestinian land.

Add all this to the wholesale imprisonment of adults and the bombing of civilians in Gaza and you end with one of the most disgraceful human rights situations in the world.
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 07 - 06:50 PM

You have brown eyes, Ifor.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 24 May 07 - 08:12 AM

On the subject of "theft of land" Guest ifor, you have yet to give your views on those chunks of the demarcated "Jewish Homeland" grabbed as spoils of war by Egypt, Syria and Jordan during the 1948 War - or are your demands, energies and attention strictly focused upon what Israel must relinquish - that is what it looks like from the content of your posts.

So recently the IDF blew up the Palestinian Orient House did they Guest ifor, in order that land records relating to claims dating back to before 1948 could be destroyed as part of the process of "writing the Palestinians out of the history of the their own land". Couldn't have been that important, or of any real concern, to the Israeli's Guest ifor. If it was do you really think that they would have kept it on the "back-burner" for 59 years.

In 1922, Arabs in Palestine started killing Jews - can you tell us all how this came about Guest ifor?

The same thing happened again in 1929 - can you tell us about that Guest ifor?

It all happened again in the years 1936 to 1939, but this time there was a difference wasn't there Guest ifor, perhaps you could tell us all about it?

What happened in 1948 Guest ifor? How were things finally resolved? Was the State of Israel recognised by the United Nations? Why did the neighbouring Arab States renege on what they had agreed to? Where were Fedayeen attacks mounted from?

What happened in 1956 Guest ifor? How were things finally resolved? Was the State of Israel recognised by the United Nations? Why did the neighbouring Arab States renege on what they had agreed to? Where were Fedayeen attacks mounted from?

While you are at it Guest ifor do the same for 1967.

1973 another attack now what happened after this one Guest ifor that was markedly different to all the others?

Tell us about the "Palestinian" attempted coup in Jordan, Guest ifor. After all Guest ifor it might just give us a bit of insight into their latest attempt at destabilizing Lebanon.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 May 07 - 02:30 PM

So, Ifor, NO answers to ANY of my questions????

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 07 - 02:42 PM

The Socialist Workers' Party doesn't answer questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: robomatic
Date: 24 May 07 - 02:53 PM

Guest, ifor seems to be interested in diatribes and pre-arranged speaking points, which accounts for his/her non-engagement with the thread, i.e. doesn't respond to specific points but re-iterates propaganda and straw horse arguments.

Too bad, because a more engaged response would result in a more meaningful thread.

As a start, Guest, ifor, try making specific responses to my previous posts in this thread.

TYVM

robo

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 24 May 07 - 04:36 PM

you raise lots of points that I will try to answer.You wont like my answers.

Firstly the writers of the above are out and out Zionists who basically believe that the Palestinian people have few if any rights at all...indeed I suspect that to even use the term "Palestinian" is like a red rag to a bull for most of them.

Secondly none seem to really deny the historic fact that the Palesinians were ethnically cleansed from their land .....it seems to be an irrelevance to the above ,but for the real life Palestinians it is overriding factor in their lives...the fact that they have been exiled,bombed,half starved,humiliated, imprisoned and beaten up by thugs who are proud to call themselves Zionists.

There is also a deliberate confusion betwen the Palestinan people and those who have led them .The leadership has been poor,ill judged and worse...but that does not negate the legitimate claim of the Palestinians to receive justice in international law and common humanity.

The state of Israel has used its mighty military machine,backed by the power of the USA and others including the UK to pulverise the Palestinian resistance for decades but for some strange reason the Palestinians will not lie down and die or crawl away....the resistance keeps reasserting itself through the Intifadas,through peaceful and armed resistance and through cultural struggle.Palestinian consciousness is probably greater now than ever before despite the factional fighting in Gaza.

And for many across the world the mask of plucky little Israel has slipped to reveal the racism,the horror and the mass murder that has accompanied the Zionists in their attempt to wipe out the Palestinians from their land.Ithas been a long road from Deir Yassin to the slaughterhouse camps in Beirut ,the illegal occupation of the West Bank,the annexation of East Jerusalem ,the mass murder of civilians ,Palestinians and Lebanese last summer,the Apartheid Wall and the deliberate starving of over a million Palestinians in the large prison we call Gaza.Tens of thousands of children are malnourished and half starved in Gaza as a deliberate consequence of Israeli political policy but the Israelis will not be able to kill them all and they will grow up to become the next generation of fighters.Is that what Israel really wants?
And by the way the aura of Israeli invincibility has gone probably never to return....despite its napalm,F16s .apache gunships,merkova tanks,cluster bombs,high explosives,warships and assassination squads the Israeli military took a pounding in the hills of Lebanon last summer...despite the military aid provided by the USA and the UK which both took a prominent role in the resupply of the bombs and rockets used to destroy the civilian infrastructure of Lebanon.

I dont think for one moment that any of the hardened Zionists reading this will change their views but there are millions across the world including many Jewish people who are sickened by the dead end murderous solutions of the Zionists.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 07 - 04:38 PM

Socialist Workers' Party response 101. SSDD.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 May 07 - 05:03 PM

Ifor,

You have failed to address even one of my questions.


Let me repeat them:

Now, HOW MANY Jews are presently living in JORDAN - the Palestinian Moslem Homeland)?

HOW many Moslems in Israel?

BTW, what about the GREATER number of Jews driven out of the Arab nations?

Or do you insist that Arab Jews are not supposed to have the "rights" that YOU have denanded for the Palestinian Arabs?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,IFOR
Date: 24 May 07 - 05:43 PM

I have to laugh at the mention of the Socialist Workers Party because it was actually fouded by a Palestine born Jew called Ygael Gluckstein who later took the name Tony Cliff.

He was born in Palestine in 1917 into a Zionist family but as a young teenager broke with the Zionists when he saw the savage way Palestinian workers were treated by Zionist thugs.He actually had his arm broken by some of these goons when he spoke in defence of Palestinian workers when he was 15. A few years later he had to flee from Palestine after further death threats by the Zionists....so not much has changed then.

Tony Cliff certainly knew about Zionism at first hand...he saw that the road of the early Zionists had set out on would lead to a murderous dead end and for the rest of his long life he was an implacable foe of Zionism and a supporter of a free Palestine and a secular democratic state in Palestine/Israel .

The SWP has many Jewish members and I would recommend the book by John Rose on Zionism which has been a massive critique of the traditional viewof history has set out by the Zionists and their supporters.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 May 07 - 05:59 PM

Ifor,

My questions?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: C. Ham
Date: 24 May 07 - 06:10 PM

Bearededbruce,

Honestly, what's the point of arguing with the Ifors of this world?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: robomatic
Date: 24 May 07 - 08:41 PM

IFOR - Thanks for writing, here goes:

Firstly the writers of the above are out and out Zionists who basically believe that the Palestinian people have few if any rights at all...indeed I suspect that to even use the term "Palestinian" is like a red rag to a bull for most of them.

This is an ad hominem attack. Machts nichts except it is actually a compliment to your opponents when you attack them rather than their arguments.

Secondly none seem to really deny the historic fact that the Palesinians were ethnically cleansed from their land .....it seems to be an irrelevance to the above ,but for the real life Palestinians it is overriding factor in their lives...the fact that they have been exiled,bombed,half starved,humiliated, imprisoned and beaten up by thugs who are proud to call themselves Zionists.

Your response is totally one sided. You are glossing over the historical development of a Jewish return to ancestral homelands, which occurred over time and multiple paths, and the very real antagonism facing Jews just for being Jews, the persecution of indigenous Jews in the area, and the fact that the "palestinians" were displaced as a consequence of a war that was not begun by the Jews. And of course, at the present time there IS a population of Arabs in Israel, WHERE is the population of Jews in any particular Arab country of the Middle East?

There is also a deliberate confusion betwen the Palestinan people and those who have led them. The leadership has been poor,ill judged and worse...but that does not negate the legitimate claim of the Palestinians to receive justice in international law and common humanity.

"deliberate confustion" implies you are a mind reader. I think there is some confusion is on your side and I don't presume to state whether it is deliberate. But you are not completely confused. I am encouraged that you have a poor opinion of the Palestinian leadership, as do I, except I had some respect for Hanan Ashrawi. I think Arafat was a corrupt megalomanic disaster. As for whether or not poor leadership can negate the legitimate claim of the Palestinians to receive justice, that depends on what constitutes a legitimatre claim. A man who is wronged by another man is not necessarily within his rights to blow him up.

The state of Israel has used its mighty military machine,backed by the power of the USA and others including the UK to pulverise the Palestinian resistance for decades but for some strange reason the Palestinians will not lie down and die or crawl away....the resistance keeps reasserting itself through the Intifadas,through peaceful and armed resistance and through cultural struggle.Palestinian consciousness is probably greater now than ever before despite the factional fighting in Gaza.

I have plenty of respect for the intelligence and tenacity of those who call themselves Palestinians. I suggest it is misapplied, partly due to the mis-education of so many, and the poor leadership mentioned above.

And for many across the world the mask of plucky little Israel has slipped to reveal the racism,the horror and the mass murder that has accompanied the Zionists in their attempt to wipe out the Palestinians from their land........ the UK which both took a prominent role in the resupply of the bombs and rockets used to destroy the civilian infrastructure of Lebanon.

One could easily take your whole paragraph, and substitute "Shiite" for Palestinian and "Sunni" for Israeli. Early in your response, you started with some reasonableness and logic, now you are sinking fast to diatribe. During the Summer you had little else to say but this kind of popular front loggorhea. This kind of Arab inspired violence whether it be in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, has led to an enormous amount of Arab on Arab violence.

I dont think for one moment that any of the hardened Zionists reading this will change their views but there are millions across the world including many Jewish people who are sickened by the dead end murderous solutions of the Zionists.

So how many tickets to "My name is Rachel Corrie" can I sell ya?
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 24 May 07 - 10:03 PM

Here's one for you Guest ifor - the Jews are as much "Palestinians" as the "Palestinians" that you so proudly support. The term was invented by Tosser Arafat to form a basis by which he could "con" the world - he suceeded, unfortunately not to the benefit of his invented "Palestinian" people but entirely for himself and his family.

Now the answers to the questions that you so assiduously evaded:

1922 - The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (Tosser Araft's Uncle) deliberately spread lies about Jews killing Arabs in order to instigate a racial and religious conflict which up until that time never existed. Fair enough Guest ifor - please contradict me if you find anything in error in what I am writing.

Tosser Arafat's Uncle then persuades the British that he is the only person who can restore the peace, the Brits are foolish enough to believe him.

1929 - The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (Tosser Arafat's Uncle) once again deliberately spreads lies about Jews killing Arabs, this time he does not get away completely "Scot Free".

1936 to 1939 Tosser's Uncle foments the "Arab Revolt", this time however the Jews have learned not to trust to the protection of the British administrators, they have organised their own defence and hit back, rather effectively.

Still with me Guest ifor - this is factual history not your Socialist Workers Party tripe. Please feel free to contradict and back up with facts of your own - I somehow doubt that you will manage that - you've answered fuck all up to now.

Second World War intervenes and Tosser's Uncle disappears to be Hitlers guest for the duration in which Tosser's Uncle raises an SS Unit in the Balkans (Pictures of him reviewing the troops and handing out medals to his brave boys for rounding up men, women and children to feed the gas chambers).

1948 British Mandate expires, Arabs have refused to recognise the UN deliniated borders and attack Jewish Settlements. The Jews are more than prepared for this onslaught and kick seven bells out of the numerically superior and better equipped Arab Forces. The UN intervenes and a ceasefire is established, the State of Israel is recognised, Egypt has bitten of a chunk of Israel called Gaza, Syria has gobbled up part of Israel on the banks of the Sea of Gallilea and the Golan Heights and Jordan has stolen the West Bank. But peace reigns - or does it? Not on your fuckin' life. Too shit scared to openly attack Israel guess what Israel's Arab neighbours do Guest ifor? Much the same as Syria and Iran are doing at present, they sponsor terrorist attacks on Israel.

1956 comes along and the great pan-Arabist leader Gamal Abul Nasser decides to take on the Israelis and drive them into the sea - end result he gets his ass whipped big time.

GAN threatens it again in 1967 after having kicked out the UN's peacekeepers. Result, while the Arabs are blowing and blustering the numerically outnumbered Israelis pre-emtively attack and completely wipe-out the Air Forces of Egypt, Jordan and Syria within the first 24 hours. Within six Days the UN is desperate to salvage something out of the situation and yet another "ceasefire" is agreed to - like all the others Guest ifor the Arabs have no intention of living up to the conditions they have agreed to in order to save face.

Sporadic attacks based from neighbouring Arab States continue until in 1973 the Arabs pre-emptively strike at Israel. Within days the Israeli's have recovered the situation in the greatest tank battle that has ever taken place (Even surpassed that of Kursk in WWII). Once again the Arab Forces of Syria and Egypt are completely routed and only the intervention of the UN prevents the Egyptian Second Army from being starved to death in Port Said. By the way Guest ifor are you keeping track of the number of times that Israel has been threatened and attacked - Remember the whole thing kicked-off with a bunch of lies told by Tosser Arafat's Uncle.

Now having been walloped severely on not one, not two but three occasions some of this pan-Arabist shit is beginning to wear a little thin for the so-called-front-line states so as part of the aftermath of the 1973 fiasco bilateral peace accords are reached with Israel which remove Egypt and Jordan from the equation.

Tosser's loyal followers in Jordan object vehmently to this and try to take over Jordan - this like every other damn thing that they have ever attempted fails and they are booted out to Lebanon (Syria and old man Hassad is far to cute and sensible to allow Tosser and Co to stay in Syria in any large numbers). Light the blue touch paper and retire, while the front-line States are getting weary of the expense of continually getting beaten, the likes of Iran and Iraq are only too willing to keep pouring fuel on the fire, mainly on the principle that they know they are not going to get clobbered.

Still with me Guest ifor, please feel free to contradict anything you don't agree with.

Saddam goes to the French and the Russians in order to acquire nuclear weapons and then finds out exactly what the reach and expertise of the Israeli Air Force is.

Arafat continues to play diplomat and terrorist, he doesn't prove to be too great at this and others start to rise to challenge his authority (Hamas and Hezbollah). In all this time attacks on Israel have not abated and absolutely bugger all has EVER been done by anyone to improve the lot of Tosser Arafat's creation - the "Palestinian" people.

And that Guest ifor is where we are today. By their gullibilty, their own damn stupidity in believing the tossers who fill their heads with empty promises the "Palestinian" people are where they are today. It is not the fault of the Israeli's, it is not the fault of the USA, it is not the fault of the West. They have been at this now for damn near sixty years, high time THEY start to look for a solution that does not involve the erradication of the Jewish people because that is not going to happen - live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 07 - 03:17 AM

"However for the indiginous pre Zionist Jewish community life has been difficult under a Jewish theocracy with many treated as second class citizens partly as a result of their dark skin but also because they were seen as fairly close to the Palestinian neighbours."

You got that right!

Ashkenazic Jews brought all of their hatred and fear with them to Israel where they hold the balance of power and continue the system of discrimination that was familiar to them in Europe. They had very good teachers. They discriminate against Arabs and
Sephardic and Mizrachi Jews and wallow in their self righteous proclamation of a homeland. Somebody should remind them that it may be a home for the Ashkenazic but it is also home for others.

I'm beginning to wonder if its Zionism I am opposed to or if its the attitude of the Ashkenazic Jews. Its as if their so-called entitlement excuses them from having any compassion for others. Perhaps its because they were treated so badly that they have no room left inside for empathy. A very self-centered and insular culture which creates second class citizens within a so-called promised land.

As far as I'm concerned, any birthright the Ashkenazic may have once had, they have lost by their own actions. Someone forgot to teach them that with privilege comes responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 07 - 09:44 AM

U.S., Arab allies send aid to Lebanon

By BASSEM MROUE, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 50 minutes ago



TRIPOLI, Lebanon - Military aid from the United States and Arab allies began arriving Friday after Washington said it was rushing supplies to the Lebanese army battling al-Qaida-inspired militants barricaded inside a Palestinian refugee camp in the country's north.

Sporadic gunfire exchanges early Friday punctured the lull in the fighting as the Lebanese army continued to build up around the Nahr el-Bared refugee camp near the port city of Tripoli.

The move appeared to be either a preparation to storm the camp — a maze of narrow streets and tightly packed residential buildings where hundreds of       Fatah Islam militants are holed up — or a tightening of the siege to force them to surrender. Thousands of Palestinian refugees are also trapped inside.

A deputy Fatah Islam leader threatened more violence if the army attacks. Abu Hureira told the pan-Arab Al Hayat daily by telephone that "sleeper cells" in other Palestinian camps and elsewhere in Lebanon were awaiting word for a "violent response."

Although U.S. officials said the military aid to Lebanon had been agreed to before the fighting broke out this week, the speedy shipment Friday marked the first tangible U.S. backing of the Lebanese authorities' fight with the militants.

By early afternoon Friday, a total of five military transport planes landed at the Beirut airport, including one from the U.S. Air Force, two from the Emirates' air force and two Royal Jordanian Air Force planes. Both Jordan and Emirates are close U.S. allies.

Secretary of State       Condoleezza Rice on Thursday renewed the Bush administration's support for the Lebanese government.

"I certainly hope that the Lebanese government will be able to deal with these extremists," Rice said. "It's just another example of extremists in the Middle East who are trying to destabilize democratic governments."

U.S. military assistance, limited during       Syria's control of Lebanon until 2005, increased after last year's summer war between Lebanese Hezbollah militants and       Israel.

Hoping that a boosted army could eventually disarm Hezbollah, the U.S. has pledged $40 million in military aid. Lebanon's 70,000-strong army is underarmed and overstretched, with army leaders complaining of a lack of heavy armor, anti-aircraft missiles and the absence of an air force.

At the camp, Lebanese troops entrenched their positions around the camp but did not appear to be attempting to advance. Reinforcements from other regions were also arriving, mostly from elite commando units.

A       Pentagon official said Thursday that the United States would send ammunition and other equipment to the Lebanese army in a military airlift of eight planes. Many residents of the capital saw Friday's international airlift but the Lebanese military refused to comment.

The fighting in Lebanon, which erupted Sunday when police raided suspected Fatah Islam hideouts in Tripoli while searching for men wanted in a bank robbery, has killed some 50 combatants and many civilians so far.

Thousands of Palestinians — mainly women and children — have fled the camp on the outskirts of Tripoli, but thousands remain inside.

Prime Minister Fuad Saniora said Thursday that Fatah Islam was "a terrorist organization ... attempting to ride on the suffering and the struggle of the Palestinian people."

Saniora said his government "will work to root out and strike at terrorism" but insisted it has no quarrel with the 400,000 Palestinian refugees in the country. Under a 1969 agreement, Lebanese military stays out of the camps that are run by the Palestinians.

Fatah Islam spokesman Abu Salim Taha repeated Thursday that the group would never surrender but "fight until ... the last drop of blood and the last bullet."

Storming the Nahr el-Bared camp could mean rough urban fighting for Lebanese troops and further death and destruction for the civilians inside. It could also spark unrest in Lebanon's 11 other Palestinian refugee camps. Palestinian factions have dissociated themselves from Fatah Islam but are angry over army bombardments that have partially destroyed Nahr el-Bared.

Three bombs have exploded in the Beirut area since Sunday, killing one woman and injuring about 20. Fatah Islam has denied responsibility for the bombings.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: C. Ham
Date: 25 May 07 - 11:00 AM

Ashkenazic Jews brought all of their hatred and fear with them to Israel where they hold the balance of power and continue the system of discrimination that was familiar to them in Europe. They had very good teachers. They discriminate against Arabs and
Sephardic and Mizrachi Jews and wallow in their self righteous proclamation of a homeland. Somebody should remind them that it may be a home for the Ashkenazic but it is also home for others.

I'm beginning to wonder if its Zionism I am opposed to or if its the attitude of the Ashkenazic Jews. Its as if their so-called entitlement excuses them from having any compassion for others. Perhaps its because they were treated so badly that they have no room left inside for empathy. A very self-centered and insular culture which creates second class citizens within a so-called promised land.

As far as I'm concerned, any birthright the Ashkenazic may have once had, they have lost by their own actions. Someone forgot to teach them that with privilege comes responsibility.

The nameless anti-Semite that spewed this hatred certainly knows sweet fuck all about the make-up of Israeli society.

If he/she knew anything, he/she would know that GENERALLY the most hardline Israelis are the Sephardics who were driven out out of Arab countries after 1948. They're hardline because they suffered at the hands of Arab oppressors and know Arabic society. As has been pointed out, there were more Jews driven out of Arab countries into Israel than there were Arabs who left Israel. The difference is that Israel made a home for the displaced Jews while the surrounding Arab countries have forced generations of "Palestinians" to live in filth, squalor and without human rights.

And as has been pointed out, there is a vibrant Arab minority in Israel while there is no Jewish population to speak of left in any surrounding Arab country.

And in what Middle Eastern country do Arabs and/or Moslems have the absolutely highest level of human rights? No it's not Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Egypt, Sudan, Libya, or even Kuwait. It's Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 07 - 12:16 PM

Well who would have thought that eh? ifor.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 25 May 07 - 12:24 PM

i am sure that those Palestinian farmers who are fighting desperately to save their orchards from the Israeli bulldozers are ever so grateful for their high level of human rights under Israeli law.

And of course those Palestinan refugee mothers sweltering in beseiged Gaza are thankful for the full weight of the Israeli law as tank shells and rockets slam into their apartments while their children wet the bed and scream in terror.

And let us remember the Palestinian students and workers kept for hours or even days at the checkpoints by trigger happy 18 year old conscripts who delight in the daily humiliations piled upon the civilian opponents..those workers and students have never been so favoured in Israeli law.

Then there are those Israeli and Palestinian marriages where the full majesty of Israeli law makes life as difficult as possible for the young lovers....all those human rights and yet no right of residence for the star crossed lovers......

I bet every evening the Palestinians, of all faiths and secular ,say a little prayer of thanks for the benefits of the human rights they enjoy under Israeli rule...or then again... perhaps they do not.
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 25 May 07 - 12:27 PM

Yeah. Life's a bitch and then you die.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 25 May 07 - 12:29 PM

"with privilege comes responsibility."

How would you know?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 07 - 12:58 PM

Ifor,

Still waiting for you to address the questions.


If you want to make speeches, feel free- but do not expect us to take seriously the unsupported claims, without reference to the facts, that you insist should sway our opinions. WE could tell lots of stories of the suffering of Jew, but that does not add to the point of discussion:ie, whether what we are seeing NOW is the beginning of anothert war, caused by Moslems, in the middle east.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 25 May 07 - 01:36 PM

Damn
And I thought the last couple of wars were the result of an invasion of Iraq by the USA and the UK and the invasion and attack on Lebanon by Israel.Add in the beseiging of Gaza again by Israel...and there is a recipe for yet more violence,more wars and more sectarian hatred.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 25 May 07 - 01:48 PM

And all those innocent terrorist groups just minding their own business. You cover your hatred of Jews by pretending to be anti-war. Plainly, you are an aging Socialist who thinks the sun rises and sets on Marx and his failed philosophy of how things should be. You ain't even worth saying fuck off to.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 25 May 07 - 05:56 PM

Well Peace I can see you have a third class degree in foul mouth insults although I must say that your manner on Mudcat totally reflects your zionist beliefs.
And that name you use...it contravenes the Trade Descriptions Act!
Heddwch
IFOR

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 07 - 09:32 PM

OK then Guestifor, let's talk about Gaza.

Point 1
It was originally stolen from the deliniated Jewish Homeland as defined by the UN and occupied as a prize of war by Egypt in 1948. But that is OK with you because it is land taken in combat FROM Israel. But do you get the gist Guest ifor it was never Egypt's it never belonged to the Arabs who happen to live in the general area collectively known as "Palestine".

Point 2
Gaza recaptured by Israel in the war of 1967 and traded off in a "land for peace" deal between Egypt and Israel signed at Camp David.

Point 3
Egypt hands this over to Tosser Arafat's "Palestinians" as a token so that the formation of an "Independent Palestinian State" can be built - at roughly the same time Jordan relinquishes it's claim to land it had also stolen in 1948 (What is known as the West Bank, which also used to belong to the Jews prior to 1948)

Point 4
Israel withdraws completely from Gaza and gives it to the "Palestinian Authority" on the understanding that the indiscriminate rocket attacks against Israel launched from Gaza cease.

Question for you Guest ifor - Did the indiscriminate rocket attacks against Israel launched from Gaza cease?

Answer - No they damn well didn't - Now, Guest ifor, ask Little Hawk what Israel's reaction to such attacks should be. According to Little Hawk so far with regard to Gaza the israeli's have not put a foot wrong.

I see that you seem to agree with the points made earlier.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 26 May 07 - 01:14 AM

1 Gaza ...a giant prison controlled by the Israeli for decades but occupied by over a million Palestinian refugees who had originally fled from their homes in what is now Israel ...fled in fear of massacre.
2 Gaza..Originally an area of sand and dune bur now one of the most heavily overcrowded urban areas in the world.
3 Gaza...for decades its Palestinian were controlled at the point of a gun by the Israelis... internal and external checkpoints criss crossed the city making movement in,out and through the city excrutiatingly difficult for the population and a daily humiliation.
4 Gaza where a million plus Palestinians were policed,bossed and controlled while a few thousand heavily armed Zionist paramilitaries took the best land for farming and settlements and appropriated the water supplies.
5 Gaza ...where the Israeli livestock was allocated more water than the Palestinian population.
6 Gaza...where the sea front was controlled by the Israelis and its Palestinian population denied access to most of its beaches in a policy reminiscent of apartheid South Africa.
7Gaza...Where the Palestinian fishing boats were bossed about by the Israelis who controlled the sea around its coast.
8 Gaza ...where travellers are kept for days at the crossing points in a deliberate act of punishment.
9 Gaza...besieged for over a 18 months where apartment blocks and housing are smashed by Israeli tanks shells and high explosives and rockets fired from gunships.
10 Gaza where the children in their thousands are half starved and terrorised by the bombing and the siege.
7 were slaughtered this week by rockets fired by the Israeli military.
Gaza ..where power stations are destroyed,pumping stations blown up,schools attacked and neighbourhoods blown to smithereens.
8..where the Israeli govt has robbed its people of almost a billion taxes in withheld tax revenue because the Palestinians elected Hamas which will not do as it is told.
9 Gaza ..where the kids were blown up on the beach by an Israeli warship [not me guv came the slow response from the Israeli govy but we all know better].
Gaza....still terrorised and still resisting.
Heddwch
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 07 - 02:53 AM

Number of rather obvious inconsistances and ommissions aren't there Guest ifor.

1. So the Palestinians "fled in fear of massacre" to Gaza in 1948 did they Guest ifor - at least would appear to be your contention. What was it then about the events of 1956, 1967 and 1973 that prompted them to stay put? Why was there no "fear of massacre" on those occasions?

2. Does an area that is composed of nothing but "sand and dune" have any good farming/pasture land and water? Or does that have to be installed and created?

3. You mention nothing about rocket attacks, which are totally indiscriminate in their targeting, made on Israel from inside Gaza, round about 140 in the last week according to the BBC.

4. Instances please of power stations destroyed,pumping stations blown up,schools attacked and neighbourhoods blown to smithereens. All good ultra left Socialist Worker's Party stuff. Mind you one school that does warrant blowing up might be that one where members of Hamas make the propellant for their rockets.

5. You failed to mention the tunnel networks used to smuggle in arms Guest ifor.

6. You failed to mention the lack of leadership or responsibility shown by the elected representatives of the "Palestinian" people. After all if the Israeli's could make this area of sand and dune bloom, why not the Arabs? Why could they not do anything of worth with the billions in aid that has been thrown in their direct? I am sorry, of course they couldn't, Arafat ripped great chunks of it off for himself and spent millions on his cronies and arms.

I could go on and on Guest ifor but I won't - it just would not be worth it. But I will give you the following comparison:

During the 1948 War, Arabs living in "Jewish" areas were advised to leave in order to give the forces of the Arab League a free hand, on the understanding that once the "Jews" had been despatched they could return. That amounted to about 480,000 people, who ever since have been treated like political pawns by their leaders and their host nations. At the same time by way of collective reprisal for not having suceeded in killing off the Jews of Palestine, neighbouring Arab countries confiscated the goods and belongings of 800,000 of their Jewish citizens and explelled them. These people were taken in by Israel and in the ensuing years they thrived, prospered and became part of the Israeli nation. So on one side you have an example of non-existent leadership combined with political cynicism and opportunism deliberately manipulated to maintain the Arabs of Palestine in poverty and misery. While on the other side you see an example of pragmatic, responsible behaviour and plain hard work.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,IFOR
Date: 26 May 07 - 07:18 AM

Amnesty International is an excellent source for unbiased information on events in Gaza,the West Bank and Israel....they are full of information about the many Palestinian children killed in their beds , on their way to school ,or shot in the head in their classrooms. Rockets fired from jet fighters or apache helicopters are indiscriminate when they explode in busy streets or crowded apartment blocks.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 May 07 - 08:02 AM

Amnesty International - unbiased - ROFLMAO - maybe "Once-upon-a-time"

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 26 May 07 - 01:18 PM

If you think that Amnesty is biased try Human Rights Watch which has a long article on the destruction of thousands of Palestinian homes in Gaza,especially at the southern border with Egypt which is controlled by the Israeli military...actually there is a mass of info about the oppression of the Palestinians for anyone interested in getting behind the news headlines.I am not referring to the Zionist apologists on mudcat who have their own narrow agenda to pursue.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: guitar
Date: 26 May 07 - 01:38 PM

another war on mudcat

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 27 May 07 - 01:31 AM

I think it was the journalist Paul Foot whose book was called Words Are Weapons Too.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,al
Date: 27 May 07 - 02:01 AM

There is a video posting on liveleak this morning which is well worth looking at and shows the continous grab for land that is going on in the illegally occupied West Bank.
It shows a huge bulldozer guarded by machine gun toting Squads of Israeli soldiers tearing up trees on land belonging to Palestinian farmers...watching and bearing witness and being shoved back are young Israeli peace activists and local people.
al

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 27 May 07 - 02:12 AM

'Israel responds to Hamas rocket attacks

GAZA, May 25: Several buildings were damaged and four people slightly injured Friday in Israeli airstrikes against Hamas positions in Gaza.

The strikes followed the firing overnight of eight Qassam rockets, including one that started a fire in a wheat field near Sderot, The Jerusalem Post reported.

Palestinian authorities said a missile fired late Thursday exploded near the house of Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh in the Shati refugee camp next to Gaza City. The missile reportedly hit a shack where guards sleep but no one was in the structure at the time.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has said he has no intention of halting Israel's offensive against Palestinian militants in the Gaza strip despite calls for a cease-fire by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, Ynetnews reported.

"Israel will continue to operate against Hamas' terror," Olmert told a Thursday night Cabinet meeting. "They will not control the situation, we will control the situation."'

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,al
Date: 27 May 07 - 03:58 PM

Olmert says "They will not control the situation.We will control the situation"....a bit like the war last year in Lebanon I suppose.
This from the most unpopular man in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 27 May 07 - 05:34 PM

100 Up

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,AL
Date: 28 May 07 - 02:46 AM

When will Moedechai Vanunu be allowed to leave Israel?
He was the nuclear whistleblower who served some 18 years in an Israeli jail for the crime of revealing to the world that Israel,in the tinder box that is the Middle East, was a nuclear arms country.
After serving his time,much of it in solitary confinement,he has renounced his Jewish faith and Israeli nationality and wants to leave the country.
However he is still be harrassed by the authorities and is not allowed to leave that country.When will it all end for him?
al

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 07 - 04:34 PM

Death. It ends in death for all people.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 07 - 04:45 PM

"Rockets fired from jet fighters or apache helicopters are indiscriminate when they explode in busy streets or crowded apartment blocks."


Rockets fired by Hamas are indiscriminate when they explode in busy streets or crowded apartment blocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: C. Ham
Date: 29 May 07 - 08:39 AM

Jonathan Kay of the National Post has an excellent column today on Lebanon's current campaign against the terrorists operating out of Palestinian refugee camps.

Jonathan Kay column: May 29, 2007

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 29 May 07 - 11:16 AM

I'm sorry. My eyes have now been opened and I must apologize for all the untruths that I've posted and all of the insults and anti-semitism that have come from me.

I will now leave Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 May 07 - 05:12 PM

Lebanon army, militants in heavy clashes at camp

By Nazih Siddiq
2 hours, 26 minutes ago



NAHR AL-BARED, Lebanon (Reuters) - The Lebanese army launched artillery shells at a Palestinian refugee camp on Tuesday and militants barricaded inside fired mortars in the heaviest fighting there in a week.

As dusk fell, the rattle of heavy machine gun fire was also heard at the Nahr al-Bared camp -- the base of militant group       Fatah al-Islam which is surrounded by the Lebanese army.

"Clashes are expected," a military source said. "It's an open front." Smoke was seen rising from buildings inside the camp, a maze of alleyways which was home to 40,000 before the fighting began. Thousands of Palestinians have fled.

One Lebanese soldier was killed early on Tuesday, bringing the death toll in Lebanon's worst internal fighting since the 1975-1990 civil war to at least 79 people -- 34 soldiers, 27 militants and 18 civilians.

The Lebanese government says Fatah al-Islam triggered the fighting when it attacked army positions around the camp and the northern city of Tripoli on May 20. It has demanded the militants surrender.

Fatah al-Islam say they have been acting in self defense and reject the demand to hand over any of their fighters.

A 1969 Arab agreement stops the army from entering Lebanon's 12 Palestinian refugee camps, home to 400,000.

The government has given Palestinian leaders in Lebanon a chance to find a way out of the standoff, concerned that the refugees will see more army action at the camp as an attack on their community.

"The Palestinians' blood is too hot to handle and we cannot bear the consequences of spilled blood. We are not in this battle to attack Palestinians but to repel an attack against Palestinians and Lebanese," Prime Minister Fouad Siniora said.

The prospect of a decisive military solution to the standoff has been played down by the government in recent days because it could trigger violence at the other refugee camps, even though Fatah al-Islam has little support among Palestinians.

NO PROGRESS TOWARDS SOLUTION

The Palestinian leaders have outlined a plan to end the standoff and are communicating with Fatah al-Islam through clerics in the camp.

But a Palestinian mediator, who asked not to be identified, said there had been no progress towards a solution. "There is a need to move quickly but that is not happening," he said.

He said the crisis could deepen if it not resolved soon because the militants and their sleeper cells "will get the chance to catch their breath and launch attacks elsewhere. The Lebanese government must find a way out."

Members of Lebanon's anti-Syrian cabinet have described Fatah al-Islam as a tool of Syrian intelligence, though Damascus denies any links to the group.

"The first concern for the government and army is to remove the Palestinian civilians from inside the camp. After that the army will deal with Fatah al-Islam," Saad al-Hariri, head of the ruling government coalition bloc, told the pan-Arab al-Sharq al-Awsat newspaper.

"There will be no negotiations with those terrorists who came to Lebanon to carry out the orders of Syrian intelligence."

Lebanese authorities say Fatah al-Islam includes Arabs from Saudi Arabia, Algeria, Tunisia,       Syria and Lebanon.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 29 May 07 - 05:50 PM

I have just read the above posting from someone [probably a zionist ] claiming to be me!I have counted 5 lies or mistruths in just three sentences.
At least one zionist who is sending stuff to Mudcat must be getting desperate.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 07 - 06:02 PM

If you are referring to the following post

"Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor - PM
Date: 29 May 07 - 11:16 AM

I'm sorry. My eyes have now been opened and I must apologize for all the untruths that I've posted and all of the insults and anti-semitism that have come from me.

I will now leave Mudcat."

and it was NOT by you, e-mail Joe Offer and have him reprimand the person who DID post it. I think you are a bloody idiot, and I find your racist views against Jews to be highly offensive, but no one should have the right to post using your name. You can message Joe under your membership name and let him know. He attends to stuff like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 May 07 - 06:04 PM

Agreed, Peace. To post as someone else is the mark of a true coward, and a fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 May 07 - 06:10 PM

Ifor,

Still waiting with those questions:

Now, HOW MANY Jews are presently living in JORDAN - the Palestinian Moslem Homeland)?

HOW many Moslems in Israel?

BTW, what about the GREATER number of Jews driven out of the Arab nations?

Or do you insist that Arab Jews are not supposed to have the "rights" that YOU have denanded for the Palestinian Arabs?



And did you READ the article mentioned in the post of
C. Ham
Date: 29 May 07 - 08:39 AM ?

It would be interesting to hear YOUR comments on the topic, AFTER you have read the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 May 07 - 06:16 PM

another report:

Fighting resumes in Lebanon

By SAM F. GHATTAS, Associated Press Writer
15 minutes ago



BEIRUT, Lebanon - The army clashed with al-Qaida-linked Islamic fighters in a Palestinian refugee camp Tuesday, breaking a weeklong truce. Lebanon's government said it's determined to defeat the militants but remains willing to give mediation a chance.

Lebanese army artillery pounded positions on the northern edge of the Nahr el-Bared camp and near the Mediterranean coastline, apparently trying to prevent any militants from fleeing, reporters at the scene said. One rocket apparently fired from the       Fatah Islam militants started a fire on the edge of the camp.

Sporadic gunfire exchanges have continued daily since the truce halted three days of heavy fighting. But the fighting that started before sundown and lasted 1 1/2 hours was the worst outbreak of violence in a week.

U.S.-backed Prime Minister Fuad Saniora vowed to defeat the militants.

"We cannot compromise on the issue of terrorism," he said before the renewed fighting.

Three days of fighting beginning May 20 has given way to a tense standoff between the army and Fatah Islam militants holed up in the northern Lebanon camp.

The army has positioned hundreds of soldiers, backed by tanks and armored carriers, in place to storm the camp, where hundreds of fighters remain along with thousands of Palestinian civilians.

The likelihood of brutal house-to-house fighting has apparently prompted the government to give Palestinian factions and Muslim clerics a chance to talk the militants into surrendering. Fatah Islam leaders have said they will never surrender.

The standoff has raised concerns of more violence across Lebanon, which has a total of 12 Palestinian refugee camps where militant movements are rampant.

Officials said Tuesday a Lebanese army soldier died in fighting around Nahr el-Bared. His death brings to 31 the number of troops killed since the fighting erupted. Some 20 civilians and about 60 militants also have been killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 30 May 07 - 11:55 AM

I am certainly not an anti semite or a racist and have opposed racism all my adult life. The first demonstration I ever joined was in support of the Vietnamese people against American imperialism and I have also opposed the rise of the BNP in the UK which is a genuinely vicious racist and anti semitic organisation.
There are many Jewish people across the world who are opposed to the Zionist policies of Israel and who are calling for a free Palestine.I support that basic demand.
It is the oppression of the Palestinians over many decades which has led to the poisonous and ruinous situation in Israel and the wider Middle East.
The Palestinians have been exiled,butchered,imprisoned and humiliated for a very long time.They will not give up their claim to the homeland they have lived on for hundreds if not thousands of years.
The zionist goons with their uzi submachine guns act like colonial racists and indeed are colonial racist of a thuggish kind.
This is not an original idea ! Take Gilad Atzman ,the Israeli born jazz musician and former member of the Israeli Defence Forces who has denounced Israeli policies towards the Palestinians and who has renounced his Israeli citizenship.Take a listen to his composition "Jenin" written in memory of those Palestinians slaughtered in that camp six years ago.
Or what about the experiences of Ygal Gluckstein ,the Palestinian born Jew and implacable opponent of Zionism for all his life.And what about the brave Mordechai Vanunu who has sacrificed his best years to expose the nuclear weapons possessed by the Israeli state.They kept him in solitary confinement for many years but his message has gone around the world.
And there are Israeli historians who are revealing the extent to which Israeli forces massacred and terrorised the Palestinians in order to drive them out of their homeland.

The zionists have driven down a murderous dead end ....the only solution they offer is more bombs,more imprisonments ,more land confiscation and a more militarised Israel with a cowed Palestinian population.But it aint working ...and it aint gonna work in the future.....
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 May 07 - 02:13 PM

Ifor,

Still waiting with those questions:

Now, HOW MANY Jews are presently living in JORDAN - the Palestinian Moslem Homeland)?

HOW many Moslems in Israel?

BTW, what about the GREATER number of Jews driven out of the Arab nations?

Or do you insist that Arab Jews are not supposed to have the "rights" that YOU have demanded for the Palestinian Arabs?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 May 07 - 03:36 PM

Ifor,

And did you READ the article mentioned in the post of
C. Ham
Date: 29 May 07 - 08:39 AM ?

It would be interesting to hear YOUR comments on the topic, AFTER you have read the article.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 30 May 07 - 06:17 PM

BB you will get no answer from Guest ifor for your questions as they would not suit the preconceived notions and distrotions so lovingly clung to by the Socialist Workers Party faithful.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,H
Date: 30 May 07 - 06:35 PM

The Union of College and University lecturers today voted to consult all branches of the union to discuss whether or not an academic boycott of Israel should begin.
This idea has grown in the UK in the past few years as a consequence of Israel's attack on Palestinian students,colleges and academics in in the occupied territories.
H

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 May 07 - 07:41 PM

H,

Have they instituted a boycott for the Palestinian's random rocket attacks on the Israeli civilian poppulation, including both Jews and Moslems?

If not, they are hypocritical scum.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 May 07 - 08:21 PM

U.N. approves Hariri assassination tribunal

POSTED: 5:22 p.m. EDT, May 30, 2007

Story Highlights• Tribunal will prosecute 2005 truck bombing that killed former Lebanese PM
• West sees move as wasy to boost Lebanese government's authority
• Lebanon has history of political assassinations that have gone unpunished
• Syria has been accused of playing role in murder; Syria has denied charge

UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) -- In a challenge to Syria, the U.N. Security Council on Wednesday voted to set up a court to prosecute the murder two years ago of former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri.

In pushing through the resolution, Western powers are gambling that the boost to the Lebanese government's authority and to the rule of law will outweigh any violent reaction in the region.

Britain's U.N. ambassador, Emyr Jones Parry, told reporters the vote would "send the right political signal" to Lebanon, a country with a long history of political assassinations, many of which have gone unpunished.

After months of arguments between deeply divided Lebanese politicians and talks between the Beirut government and the United Nations, 10 council members supported the Western-sponsored resolution to set up the court and five abstained.

There were no votes against.

The five countries that abstained -- Russia, China, Qatar, Indonesia and South Africa -- argued that the council was exceeding its authority and interfering in Lebanese affairs.

"It is not appropriate for the Security Council to impose such a tribunal on Lebanon," South African Ambassador Dumisani Kumalo told the council.

The move responds to a request from Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora, but the country's parliament has not approved the plan because Speaker Nabih Berri, an opposition leader who disputes the Cabinet's legitimacy, has not convened the chamber.

Syria said the U.N. action violated Lebanese sovereignty and could plunge Lebanon into further instability.

A government statement carried by the official news agency said Syria stuck by its long-standing concerns about the court compromising Syria's own jurisdiction over any Syrians who could be indicted for Hariri's 2005 killing.

"Setting up the court under Chapter Seven violates the sovereignty of Lebanon and could cause the situation there to become worse," the statement said. "There has been no change in the Syrian position on the court."

Ties with Syria
Central to the dispute are Lebanon's ties with Syria, which pro-government Lebanese leaders accuse of killing Hariri and 22 others with a truck bomb in 2005.

Syria denied involvement but was forced to withdraw its troops from Lebanon, ending a 29-year presence.

The outcry over the assassination forced Syria to withdraw troops from Lebanon.

Damascus denies involvement but has indicated it will not cooperate with the court. Washington's U.N. ambassador, Zalmay Khalilzad, warned Syria on Tuesday it would face "increased pressure" if it did not do so.

Despite warnings by pro-Syrian Lebanese President Emile Lahoud and others that setting up the court could trigger a fresh wave of violence, Western leaders say it is essential as a matter of principle to try Hariri's murderers.

Critics on the council say that invoking Chapter 7 of the U.N. Charter to enforce the court's establishment, as the resolution does, is going too far.

Jones Parry rejected that view.

"Legally we can, politically we ought" to set up the court, he said.

But he described Lebanon as "a unique case", brought about by the inability of the Lebanese parliament to endorse the tribunal.

Western envoys amended the resolution last week to allow until June 10 before it goes into force to offer Lebanese factions a last chance to bury their differences over it.

The resolution puts into effect an agreement the United Nations reached with the Lebanese government last November.

Key details of the tribunal, including where it would be based, remain to be decided and diplomats expect a year's delay before it starts working.

Lebanese authorities are currently holding eight people over the Hariri killing. They are four pro-Syrian generals who headed Lebanese security departments at the time and four members of a small Syrian-backed Sunni Muslim group accused of having played a role in monitoring Hariri's movements.

But a continuing U.N. investigation has not yet recommended who should be indicted in the affair.

Hariri's son praises tribunal idea
Hariri's son hailed the U.N. resolution.

"This is a victory for oppressed Lebanon," Saad Hariri, also leader of the parliament's ruling majority, said in a televised address shortly after the Security Council passed the resolution.

"It is the moment of arriving at the gateway of justice," he said, choking with tears. Hariri said the move, opposed by Lebanon's pro-Syrian opposition leaders, was "salvation from the long criminal series of terrorism".

Supporters in mainly Sunni Muslim areas of Beirut went to the streets to celebrate the resolution as fireworks lit the night sky and candles illuminated the streets. Some supporters fired assualt rifles into the air.

A stun grenade exploded at about the same time in a Christian suburb of Beirut, causing no casualties or damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,H
Date: 31 May 07 - 03:56 AM

But Israel is occupying land it does not own...and never has.It should withdraw from the West Bank,East Jerusalem and the Golan Heightsand stop its blockade of Gaza.There are hundreds of illegal Israeli settlements on this illegally occupied territory occupied mainly by people who have migrated to Israel from America and Russia .This occupation and the grab for agricultural land,water supplies ,Israeli only roads and the separation wall which snakes its way across the occupied land is THE cause of the ongoing hostility between the occupier and the occupied.
We have seen Israel practice its neighbourliness against the population of Lebanon last year which resulted in death and destruction of innocent civilians fleeing in car convoys, sheltering apartment blocks etc.Israel is like the neighbourhood bully that will strike and strike again until his victim says how much he likes him!
H

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,IFOR
Date: 31 May 07 - 11:37 AM

Film Showing
               "Our Suffering In This Land"
Tuesday 5th June at the Dylan Thomas Centre,Maritime Quarter
Swansea at 7pm ...free entry
Teacher Ed Hill visited the occupied territories with a delegation organised by Zaytoun,the olive oil exporters .He was so shocked by what he saw along the Separation wall and the suffering meted out to the Palestinian people that he made a film about his experiences which is now to be shown as part of the Swansea Bay Film Festival.Ed will be on hand to introduce the film and to discuss its making.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 31 May 07 - 12:44 PM

I see that Guest ifor still refuses to answer your questions BB.

Also not a single mention in either his diatribe or Guest H's of the kidnappings and the thousands of rockets launched at Israel from South Lebanon, they apparently are fully justified.

Guest H take a look, a really good look at what constituted the Jewish and Arab lands at the end of Britain's League of Nations Mandate in 1947. I think that you will find that in the war fought between Arab and Jew (That only took place because the Arabs refused to agree to the UN deliniated borders) in 1948 which saw the birth and recognition of the State of Israel by the United Nations, that Egypt captured Gaza and held onto it when it had no right to; that Syria captured parts of the Golan and the shore of the Sea of Gallilee that had formed agreed borders back in 1923 and held onto it when it had no right to and finally the Jordanians captured and held onto the West Bank when it had no right to.

One simple fact that the pair of you want to consider. If all involve recognise the State of Israel and stop attacking Israel, Israel will stop hitting back.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,al
Date: 31 May 07 - 02:04 PM

Why doesn't Israel hand all the land it has occupies [illegally ] in exchange for a general agreement on peace and security that could also see the return of refugees from exile,the de nuclearisation of the Middle East and the guarantee of Human Rights and Civil Rights for all in the land .
Just a thought!
al

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 May 07 - 03:06 PM

Al,

Why don't the Palestinian refugees go to the PALESTINIAN MOSLEM homeland ( Transjordan, 1923) and settle there in peace, and be absorbed, as the Arab Jewish refugees were settled in the JEWISH Homeland of Israel??

There is NO " illegal" occupation: the West bank is "in dispute", and declaring that it is Palestinian when the Palestinian have refused to negotiate in good faith ( ie, to stop the illegal area mass bombardment, prohibited by the Geneva Conventions, by the daily rocket attacks upon a civilian population seem to show a slight bias.

Please look at the history of the region.

http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/Graphics/Maps/PartitionforTransJordan.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,al
Date: 31 May 07 - 04:33 PM

There you have it from a zionist!
Not interested in peace,security or justice.....and are all those Brooklyn born gun totin macho fundamentalist types in the paramilitary settlements really refugees from the USA ? Somehow I doubt it.
Al

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 May 07 - 04:43 PM

Al

"Not interested in peace,security or justice"


This does describe the present, and past, Palestinian position.


"are all those Brooklyn born gun totin macho fundamentalist types in the paramilitary settlements really refugees from the USA ?"

No-one except for YOU have made that representation. There were over 800,000 Jewish refugees from Arab nations ( as opposed to 640,000 Palestinians who fled that became Israel) that WERE settled in Israel. Sorry if you don't want a just settlement of the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 May 07 - 08:44 PM

Let me make a correction, to be precise:

There were over 800,000 Jewish refugees from Arab nations ( as opposed to 640,000 Palestinians who fled that became Israel) the majority of which WERE settled in Israel.

Some did settle in other countries.


Now, how many of the 640,000 Palestinian Moslems were accepted by the other Moslem nations as citizens, and settled? Or were they kept in camps, ON ARAB TERRITORY?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 11:52 AM

Guest al and Guest ifor. Have a look at that map that BB linked to, then let us all know where Gaza, shore of the Sea of Gallilee and the west bank were.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,al
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 12:50 PM

Let's have the Law of the Right to Return for everyone! Palestinians included.
al

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 01:41 PM

Al,

THEY HAVE IT- to the PALESTINIAN MOSLEM HOMELAND of Jordan.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,al
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 02:45 PM

Reply to BeardedBruce
Those people who were forced out of Haifa and other towns and cities and villages in what is now Israel would like to return there....ethnic cleansing is illegal in International Law and that is what those Palestinians suffered :this seems beyond the comprehension of Zionists who claim a biblical right to rule the land and beyond the comprehension of you...if someone came to my country and claimed it because of purported events 2000 years ago they would be seen as barking mad!
al

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 02:49 PM

Al,

Those people who were forced out of the Arab nations would like to return there....ethnic cleansing is illegal in International Law and that is what those Jews suffered :this seems beyond the comprehension of those that demand for the Moslem Palestinians what they would deny to the Arab Jews.


JORDAN was established in 1923 as the ARAB (MOSLEM) PALESTINIAN HOMELAND. NO JEWS were permitted to reside there.


Now, HOW MANY Jews are presently living in JORDAN - the Palestinian Moslem Homeland)?

HOW many Moslems in Israel?


BTW, what about the GREATER number of Jews driven out of the Arab nations?

Or do you insist that Arab Jews are not supposed to have the "rights" that YOU have demanded for the Palestinian Arabs?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 02:55 PM

BTW Al,

The right to return that YOU demand, if applied to Jews, would allow for the resettlement of the West Bank Jewish communities "ethnically clensed" BY THE ARABS between 1948 and 1967. Israel HAS stated it would trade that land for peace: YOU would have to insist that they do not, and the Jews driven out be allowed to resettle there.

I grew up living across the street from a Palestinaian family driven out of Ramallah - BY THE MOSLEMS ( They were Lebonese Orthodox). The town HAD been mainly Christian, before 1948...

SO, when will you demand that the present occupants give the land back to those that they drove off?????

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,al
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 03:11 PM

BeardedBruce,
Its not a question of MY demanding the right of return of Palestinian people to their homeland.The key point is THEY are demanding the right of return...the same right of return enjoyed by Jewish people across the world even though many of them have never been to Israel.

In order to return to their homeland from which they were driven the Palestinians have experienced exile, mass imprisonment,bombing,slaughter in the refugee camps and the confidcation of their farms,the demolition of their homes in vast numbers,the uprooting of their orchards and so much more.
It is the Palestinian people who are demanding a free Palestiniae and the Israeli state and their Zionist supporters cannot keep a lid on things despite having the most militarised state in the world and one of the world's most mightiest armies.This a state that practices torture on its Palestinian opponents without legal restraint and of course is a nuclear armed state which has implications across the region and the world.
And lets not kid ourselves that all Israelis are fundamentalist Zionists ..they are not.Many recognise the injustices meted out to the Palrestinians and have joined peace groups and groups opposed to the demolition of houses etc.Here lies hope for the future.The zionist path is a road to further destruction and misery and is a political and moral dead end.
I notice from the news today that one fundamentalist Zionistleader is calling for the carpet bombing of Gaza ...it simply isnt going to work!
al

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 03:27 PM

Al,

You have missed the point of the "right of return".

It is NOT a right to return to your native country- NO nation can give that to others of another nation.

Israel was formed as the JEWISH homeland. All JEWS have the right to immigrate there. THAT is the "Right of Return".

JORDAN was formed as the PALESTINIAN MOSLEM Homeland. Jordanian Law states that all PALESTINIANS ( as long as they are NOT Jews) may immigrate to JORDAN. The "Right of Return" thus has been enacted that you are talking about.


Do Jews have the right to demand to return to those Arab nations they were driven out of, from 1948 to 1967? NO!!!!


Do Palestinian Moslems have the right to demand to return to those lands they fled, under Arab promises that they would get all of Israel, in 1948? NO!!!!


Did the Arabs have the legal right to remove the Jews living on the West Bank , driven out during the period from 1948 to 1956? NO!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 03:38 PM

I notice from the news today that several fundamentalist Moslem leaders are calling for the destruction of Israel...it simply isn't going to work!

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: C. Ham
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 05:01 PM

Those people who were forced out of the Arab nations would like to return there....ethnic cleansing is illegal in International Law and that is what those Jews suffered :this seems beyond the comprehension of those that demand for the Moslem Palestinians what they would deny to the Arab Jews.

I haven't seen any studies or polls showing that many Jews (or their children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren) forced out of Arab countries circa 1948-49 have any desire to go back. They are fully integrated in places like Israel, and to some extent, diaspora countries like Canada, the U.S., France, etc. I know many personally and I've never heard any of them express a desire to return to places like Egypt or Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 05:36 PM

"They are fully integrated in places like Israel, and to some extent, diaspora countries like Canada, the U.S., France, etc"

BECAUSE those countries accepted them in, UNLIKE the Arab nations and the Palestinian Moslems.


Those Moslems that accepted the offer of the Israelis to live in pace, and remain in Israel are there today.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 07:06 PM

Actually the Palestinians living within the borders of pre 1967 Israel are treated as third class citizens and are obviously not wanted there by the zionists...the mistreatment of Palestinians living on the West Bank and in Gaza and East Jerusalem is truely shocking and has besmirched the name of Israel across the world. Hence the growing amount of support for a free Palestine!
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 07:59 PM

Ifor,

Still waiting...


Now, HOW MANY Jews are presently living in JORDAN - the Palestinian Moslem Homeland)?

HOW many Moslems in Israel?


BTW, what about the GREATER number of Jews driven out of the Arab nations?

Or do you insist that Arab Jews are not supposed to have the "rights" that YOU have demanded for the Palestinian Arabs?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 09:06 PM

back to what is really happening...

Fighting flares as Lebanese troops enter refugee camp

POSTED: 2:41 p.m. EDT, June 1, 2007

Story Highlights• NEW: Clashes intensify as Lebanese forces go into camp's northern outskirts
• Islamic militants are barricaded inside refugee camp north of Tripoli
• Artillery fire some of the heaviest since the start of the campaign May 20
• Move comes a day after officials confirm second round of U.S. supply flights

TRIPOLI, Lebanon (CNN) -- Lebanese soldiers -- backed by gunboats, heavy artillery and rows of tanks -- entered a Palestinian refugee camp that has hosted days of fierce fighting north of Tripoli, a military source said Friday.

Two Lebanese soldiers were killed Friday during clashes with Islamic militants at the Nahr el-Bared camp, the army said.

Columns of tanks rolled nearby as Lebanese troops entered the northern edges of the refugee camp, breaking more than a week of relative calm in the fighting between the army and Fatah al-Islam, a militant group alleged to be linked to al Qaeda.

Troops also pounded the camp with 155 mm shells in what is the heaviest daytime artillery fire seen since the beginning of the campaign. Lebanese security sources said the militants were pinned down in one area.

The violence began May 20 when Lebanese internal security forces were conducting raids in a Tripoli neighborhood following a bank robbery. The raids triggered clashes near the refugee camp after, army sources say, Fatah al-Islam militants shot at the troops, who returned fire.

The battles are the worst internal violence since the end of Lebanon's civil war in 1990.

The Lebanese military said it is pinpointing and targeting militant strongholds so as to avoid civilian casualties. The army has accused the militants of using civilians as human shields.

More than 30,000 Palestinians called the overcrowded camp home before fighting erupted last month. Many fled the camp last week, and Red Cross officials estimated Friday that about 10,000 civilians may still be inside.

Many Palestinians fled on foot, carrying babies and belongings, while others crowded into cars and vans and waved white flags from the windows, pleading with militants and soldiers not to shoot.

About 30 soldiers, 50 militants and one civilian have been killed, Lebanese officials said. However, Palestinian sources reported a lower death toll for militants -- 17 to 25 -- and a higher one for civilians, 20.

Friday's fighting comes a day after tank and artillery ammunition arrived in Beirut as part of a second wave of U.S. military supply flights.

Last week, the Lebanese government requested emergency assistance, saying it needed ammunition because it had depleted its stock during the operation.

Arab nations also have assisted in supplying the Lebanese military.

Prime Minister Fouad Siniora has said he refuses to "surrender to the terrorism of the militants" and accused Fatah al-Islam of using Palestinian refugees as a prop for the group's attempt to destabilize the country.

Friday's offensive defies warnings from Hezbollah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, who during a televised address last week told Lebanese forces not to enter the camp. Nasrallah also warned against sacrificing the Palestinian civilians in the camp. (Full story)

"Suppose that the government is having a war on terror, that doesn't mean they should kill half of the people on the street," he said.

The Lebanese military stays out of the Palestinian camps under a 1969 agreement that allows the Palestinians to run them.

Although critical of the Lebanese military, Nasrallah also lambasted Fatah al-Islam, accusing the group not only of an aggression against the army, but also of an aggression against all of Lebanon.

Hezbollah, an Iranian-backed Shiite faction, views extremist Sunni groups such as al Qaeda and Fatah al-Islam as enemies.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 08:28 AM

40 YEARS OF OCCUPATION IS ENOUGH!

MARCH AND RALLY IN LONDON ON SATURDAY THE 9TH JUNE

ASSEMBLE AT LINCOLN INNS FIELD AT 1.30PM

MARCH AND RALLY AT TRAFALGAR SQUARE

SPEAKERS INCLUDE lABOUR PARTY,GREEN AND RESPECT MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT AS WELL AS PALESTINIAN AND ISRAELI SPEAKERS.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 01:29 PM

Ifor,

Still waiting...


Now, HOW MANY Jews are presently living in JORDAN - the Palestinian Moslem Homeland)?

HOW many Moslems in Israel?


BTW, what about the GREATER number of Jews driven out of the Arab nations?

Or do you insist that Arab Jews are not supposed to have the "rights" that YOU have demanded for the Palestinian Arabs?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 04:29 PM

Do come along Guest ifor, ou have been asked some fairly relevant questions, as an authority on the subject the least that you can do is attempt to answer the points put to you. If you cannot then at least have the guts and decency to admit that you can't.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 09:03 PM

What you gentlemen fail to understand is that ifor does not ever intend to answer the questions you have put. His purpose is to highlight Palestinian problems without ever having to admit that Isrealis are human and also have rights as humans. His mission is to highlight only the wrongs done to Palestinians. Ipso facto, to him, Israelis are less than human, because by his silence, he denies them their humanity. Stop wasting your time on ifor. The back and forth simply gives him a forum for his one-sided view.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 01:51 AM

Peace
You are much misnamed.....the zionisim that you and your pals espouse here on this thread has led to a cycle of wars, oppression,land theft ,wholesale imprisonment,butchery in the refugee camps,the tearing up of international law and human rights,economic blockade,the destruction of civilian infrastructure in the Lebanon and Gaza,theft of water supplies and the malnutrition of children on a mass scale...the victims in all the above have been the Palestinian people ...the people that many zionists cannot even bear to call "Palestinian" in case it means they have to recognise their right to a national identity.

It is the Israeli state which has one of the most formidable military machines in the world that it routinely uses against Palestinian civilians...9 Palestinian children have been slaughterd in the past month and dozens of adult civilians killed. It is the Israeli state which is armed ,supported and funded by the USA and the UK for that matter.Without this support it would have probably gone bankrupt a long time ago.

The injustice and scandal of the Palestinian people is recognised across the world...not by you lot of course....there are many prominent Jewish people and organisations who have spoken out against the crimes and the oppression...inside Israel there are soldiers who refuse to fight over the 1967 borders,there are activists who oppose the mass destruction of Palestinian houses,there are Jewish members of the International Solidarity Movement bearing witness to Israeli crimes in the occupied territories. Many Zionists regard these people as "self hating Jews".They believe that all Jewish people who speak out against Zionism are self hating...they loath individuals like Noam Chomsky who are prominent and outspoken in the defence of the Palestinians.

In the occupied territories today the Palestinians are being beaten up,imprisoned, harrassed and intimidated as the Apartheid Wall CARVES their land into a series of bantustans and is stolen from them ,often by extreme guntoting fundamentalist Zionists who are American or Russian by birth.
In Hebron this week pictures have been flashed across the world of a Palestinian mother and baby being stoned by zionist settlers while the security forces look on with indifference.
Whiel the oppression goes on so will the support for the Palestinians.Get used to it.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,IFOR
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 01:58 AM

Two Palestinian children,aged 8 and 12 .were shot dead yesterday by Israeli troops ,as they searched for scrap metal in Northern Gaza.A third child was wounded and taken to an Israeli hospital.Both children were shot in the chest.
Amnesty International has reported that some 120 Palestinian children were killed last year by the Israeli military.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:11 AM

Your view of me means less than nothing. It simply matches my view of you. Get used to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 03:47 AM

IFOR is right. The world sees no justification for killing the children who were in Palestinian territory near the beach. They were shot in the chest!

The Israelis say they were crawling toward a fence.

Nobody condones the cold-blooded killing of children. How do the Zionists defend such actions?

If Israelis are human and have rights as humans, they should also respect the rights of others. Nobody is automatically entitled to respect. Respect has to be earned and with privilege comes responsibility.

There is absolutely nothing about Zionist Israel that I respect. In fact, I see Israel as a welfare state, completely dependent on the U.S. and Britain. They like to think, however, that they are strong and independent. They are really just a colony of neo-cons in the Middle East.

The idea that European Jews would be able to return to their homeland and live in peace as God's chosen people is a pretty thought. Thats all it is. A poem gone terribly wrong. No rhyme and no reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 04:56 AM

Since the start of the Oslo peace process, the UK alone has given over £370 million in aid to Palestine, the EU jointly has given a great deal more. Anually I believe that the EU jointly used to give the Palestinians $670 million, this was more or less halted with the election of Hamas and Hamas refusal to set aside it's declared intent to erradicate the State of Israel and its people. I have attempted to find this massive amount of aid that the UK supposedly gives to Israel each year but as yet have found nothing.

The US definitely provides Israel with massive aid in the form of loan guarantees. They do the same to a lesser extent to countries in the region that have signed peace agreements with Israel.

The Israeli armed forces are formidable but by no means are they the largest in the area. They are certainly the best equipped, best trained and most effective. But that is entirely down to the reason that they have to be. Israel has been under constant threat of annihilation since the day of it inception. To date it has managed to successfully defend itself against such threats, the second that those threats are removed Israel will live at peace with its neighbours. But as long as indiscriminate and unprovoked attacks are made against the civilian population of Israel, Israel has the right to defend its citizens and requires permission from none to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 08:03 AM

The Israeli state has also stolen almost a billion pounds of taxes which the people of Gaza have paid..
but this is in addition to the land,orchards,farms,hills,grazing pastures,water etc stolen from the people of Palestine.
It is also in addition to the villages erased by the hundred and the towns and cities literally stolen from the Palestinians.
The refugees from Jenin for example came from Haifa but had all their property confiscated by the Israeli state.
In founding the state of Israel it practiced wholesale ethnic cleansing....its the crime that keeps coming back to the surface of political life like a dead body in the sand.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 08:42 AM

Well Guest Ifor such are the prices paid when your leaders opt for war instead of peace. The Israeli's were quite prepared to accept the UN deliniated boundaries proposed in 1948. The Arab League rejected them out of hand and opted to drive the Jews into the sea.

In order to give themselves a free hand in this enterprise they advised "their" people to leave on the premiss that they could return once the Jews had been wiped out.

Well as we all know Guest Ifor it didn't happen, but to the murderous bastards who kicked it all off, they seem to think that it's all a game and that at the end of it everything goes back to way it was before, except that they did not hand back Gaza, the West Bank, or parts of the Golan. Kind of like playing poker and whenever you lose a hand you cry and ask for your money back.

By and large the Israeli's did go back to their start lines and the Arabs made promises and commitments that they had no intention of keeping. Attacks on Israel continued, after 1967 however, the Israeli's said that they would hold onto what they had taken until binding bilateral agreements had been reached with it's neighbours.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 10:41 AM

The conflict between the Zionists and Palestinians certainly did not suddenly start with the 1948 war.....it was the intention of the Zionists to establish their state in what is now Israel from the very beginning of the Zionist enterprise going back to pre World War One times when the Jewish population was less than 10% of the population of land.This made the Palestinian majority very apprehensive of what was to come and the deals being done over their heads by the Superpowers including the UK.
And the Palestinian people are still unwilling to be frogmarched out of their country and out of their own history and we can all see the political perversions that Israel/Zionism has taken to deal with the people they oppress in the West Bank,in Gaza and in Jerusalem not to mention within the borders of Israel itelf.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 01:06 PM

"we can all see the political perversions that Israel/Zionism has taken to deal with the people they oppress in the West Bank,in Gaza and in Jerusalem not to mention within the borders of Israel itelf."
- Guest Ifor.

Well then ifor, taking into account that the above was written by you, maybe you can answer BB's questions:

HOW MANY Jews are presently living in JORDAN - the Palestinian Moslem Homeland?

HOW many Moslems in Israel?

Perhaps you can explain why 16.2% Moslem segment of Israel's population chose to live as Israeli's rather than as Palestinians in the refugee camps. Could that have something to do with there being peace, stability, rule of law, prosperity living where they do as opposed to being kicked around like political footballs by foreign sponsored terrorist organisations ifor. There is not a single "leader" who purportedly "champions" the Palestinian cause that gives a flying fig about the Palestinian people - simple case of mind over matter ifor, the Arab leaders don't mind as long as they are raking off money hand over fist a-la Tosser Arafat, while the Palestinian people just simply don't matter. That is the root cause of their misery and penury - nothing whatsoever to do with the Israeli's, the 1,350,000 Arabs living in Israel are one thousand times better off than those Palestinians currently residing in Arab refugee camps.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 01:58 PM

"I could not disagree with what you have written more. The peace prosperity and well-being of the "Palestinians" can be had at the drop of a hat - all they have to do is acknowledge the right of existence of the Sovereign State of Israel."

Once again, propaganda. The Palestinians have not unilaterally attacked the right of existence of Israel but have criticized its role as a dominant dictatorship in the region.
There is no unanimity on such a position coming from Israel or Palestine (yet to be).
There is an excuse that assumes that the Palestinians can be painted evil with an Israeli brush to avoid this responsibility of meaningful dialogue. This has been replaced with a politicized Israeli governmental strategy which is tatamount to "ethnic cleansing".

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 04:48 PM

"The Palestinians have not unilaterally attacked the right of existence of Israel "

Actually, they have.


And I am still waiting for the answers to my questions:

JORDAN was established in 1923 as the ARAB (MOSLEM) PALESTINIAN HOMELAND. NO JEWS were permitted to reside there.


Now, HOW MANY Jews are presently living in JORDAN - the Palestinian Moslem Homeland)?

HOW many Moslems in Israel?


BTW, what about the GREATER number of Jews driven out of the Arab nations?

Or do you insist that Arab Jews are not supposed to have the "rights" that YOU have demanded for the Palestinian Arabs?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 06:35 PM

"The Palestinians have not unilaterally attacked the right of existence of Israel" - Stringsinger

You have got to be joking surely!!!!!

Have you read the Hamas Charter???

Have you read Hezbollah's "manifesto"???

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:50 PM

There seem to be some here who feel that anything the Arabs say is really a lie, it seems.

But some here, myself included, actually have listened to, and read what BOTH sides have said in the past, and looked at the actions of BOTH sides.


Still waiting, for answers to questions, and for Hezbollah to comply with ANY of the terms of the UN Mandated ceasefire in Lebenon- Israel has complied in full already.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,al
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 02:21 AM

There are a few other UN Resolutions that the Palestinian people have been waiting for the state of Israel to comply with, including one about withdrawing from the occupied territories.
al

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 07:59 AM

There are a few other UN Resolutions that the Israeli people have been waiting for the Palstinian people to comply with, including one about accepting the existance of the state of Israel.


Now, about those questions?


If we were to have Israel give 1000 acres to each Palestinain that fled, and then took back 1000 acres for each Jew driven out of an Arab nation, how much of the Middle East would be a part of Israel? THAT is what you would have to accept, if you want to follow the logic you have proposed.


Unless you ARE stating that Jews are not really human beings, and do not have the SAME rights you want to have for the Palestinains. IS THAT THE CASE??????

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 08:24 AM

ifor,

"it practiced wholesale ethnic cleansing"


Will you please tell me what you call the removal, by force and law, of the 820,000+ Jews who resided in Arab nations and were driven out?

And what about the Jews who were "encouraged" to leave by the Jordanians after 1948, when Jordan occupied the West Bank??? I have not heard you state how THEY should be given their homes back.


And will those Moslems in Ramallah give the land back to my Christian neighbors who were driven out when Jordan occupied the area?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 08:36 AM

back to the Arab- on - Arab bloodletting...

Fighting breaks out at 2nd Lebanon camp

By SCHEHEREZADE FARAMARZI, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 12 minutes ago



EIN EL-HILWEH CAMP, Lebanon - Violence sparked by a two-week old confrontation between the Lebanese army and al-Qaida inspired militants spread to a second Palestinian refugee camp in the southern part of the country, killing two soldiers, police said Monday.

After sporadic clashes Sunday evening, fighting picked up overnight and resumed briefly Monday morning as Islamic militants of the Jund al-Sham group fired rocket propelled grenades at the army on the edge of the southern Ein el-Hilweh camp, the largest of 12 Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon. The army fired back.

Police said five Lebanese soldiers were wounded in the Ein el-Hilweh clashes. One Jund al-Sham official was wounded and several houses belonging to members of the group were burned by army fire, Lebanese security and Palestinian officials said.

Jund al-Sham, which is based in Ein el-Hilweh, has claimed responsibility or been blamed for a number of bombings and gunbattles, mainly in Lebanon and       Syria. Syrian officials have portrayed Jund al-Sham, which is Arabic for Soldiers of historic Syria, as the most active militant group in their country. In Lebanon, the militants are believed to number in the dozens.

About 60 miles to the north along the Mediterranean Sea coast, another militant group,       Fatah Islam, continued its 16-day standoff against the army in the Nahr el-Bared Palestinian refugee camp. The sound of gunfire exchanges had tapered by the morning, suggesting the army was conducting pinpoint commando operations inside the camp.

The army brought reinforcements to Nahr el-Bared Monday. Two convoys of a total of 12 armored carriers were spotted heading toward the camp along with five trucks, each carrying 20 soldiers, and several small military vehicles.

The army has been pounding Fatah Islam positions at Nahr el-Bared since May 20 and has moved tanks and armored carriers into the camp in a push to crush the militants, who first appeared in Lebanon last fall and are suspected of having links to al-Qaida.

Many in Lebanon believed the army would be able to quickly crush Fatah Islam inside Nahr el-Bared, but after several days of fierce battles using artillery and tanks, the troops continued to face strong resistance.

The relentless bombardment at Nahr el-Bared, which is located on the outskirts of this port city, has angered Palestinians in some of Lebanon's 11 other refugee camps, a possible recipe for spreading violence.

Back at Ein el-Hilweh, where Jund al-Sham militants are believed to be trying to occupy the army and take the pressure off their Fatah Islam allies, a member of Asbat al-Ansar, another Islamic group that has refused to join the fight and is mediating an end to the confrontation, was killed in the clashes, the officials said. They spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not allowed to talk to the media.

Asbat al-Ansar, Arabic for the Partisans' League, is on the U.S. list of terrorist groups.

An official with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' moderate Fatah faction, said Palestinian groups would be meeting to try to ease the tensions at Ein el-Hilweh, blaming Islamic factions for blocking Fatah from going after Jund al-Sham.

"The camp cannot be taken hostage by 40 gangsters," said Col. Abu Walid Ashi, a Fatah spokesman at Ein el-Hilweh, referring to the Jund al-Sham militants.

"If they let us, we can finish them off in hours," he said. But he warned violence could increase if Fatah decided to make a move against the militants.

Similar attempts to reach a compromise have failed to quell the fighting up north at Nahr el-Bared. The Lebanese government has demanded that Fatah Islam surrender, but the militant group's deputy leader rejected the call in a telephone interview with The Associated Press.

"This is not only impossible, this is unthinkable. Our blood is cheaper than handing over our weapons and surrendering," Abu Hureira, a Lebanese whose real name is Shehab al-Qaddour, said Sunday. He also denied the army had made significant progress in its offensive.

"I am still in the same position since the war began," Abu Hureira said. "Our morals are high and the army did not make any advance."

Fatah Islam spokesman Abu Salim Taha, told the AP by cell phone that five Fatah Islam members, including a senior leader, have been killed and seven wounded since Friday, when the latest army offensive began.

A senior Lebanese army officer said nine Lebanese troops have been killed at Nahr el-Bared and about 40 others wounded since Friday. The body of one more soldier was retrieved Sunday.

The casualties raised the army's total death toll to 45 at Nahr el-Bared and two at Ein el-Hilweh since fighting erupted at the northern camp 16 days ago. At least 20 civilians and about 60 militants have also been killed in the northern Lebanon fighting, but casualties in the camp in the last four days were unknown because relief organizations were banned from entering.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 11:43 AM

The Palestinians were not at all responsible for the holocaust of European Jews in World War Two .That was caused by a barbaric European fascist ideology allied to the most vicious racism ever seen.The murder of six million Jews was the greatest crime the world has ever seen and took place on an industrial scale.
However,what happened to the Palestinian people has also been an International Crime.The expulsion of almost a million Palestinian in the "Nakbha" or catastrophe came after the massacre of Palestinian civilians at Deir Yassin and elsewhere as Palestinian and Israeli sources testify.
These Palestinians did not leave their homes willingly or happily as some zionists seem to take delight in suggesting.They were forced out by bombs,grenades , bullets and knives.What regular Israeli forces did not achieve was undertaken by Zionist murder gangs led by future politicians like Begin and Shamir.
Jacques De Reynier of the International Red Cross has left a vivid and ghastly account of the slaughter at Deir Yassin where some 350 villagers including young children were slaughtere by grenades and bullets or disembowelled by knives.This account is quoted at length in the book The Gun And The Olive Branch by David Hurst and published by London in 1977.
The expulsion of almost a million Palestinians formed the basis of the state of Israel.
The UN mediator sent to stem the exodus of Palestinian refugees out of the their homeland ,Count Bernadotte ,was assinated in Sept 1948 by members of the terror zinist Stern Gang ,one of whose members Yitzakh Shamir went on to become Prime Minister of Israel.Bernadotte had arrived in time to witness the theft of Palestinian of Palestinian houses,shops,orchards and land on a grand scale.Eighty percent of the land,fifty percent of citrus groves,ninety percent of olive groves and ten thousand shops were grabbed during and after the Nakbha.For challenging the Zionist propoganda it was decided he had to be killed ...and so he was.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 03:25 PM

Ifor,

"The Palestinians were not at all responsible for the holocaust of European Jews "

No-one has said that they were. But I am glad to see that there are some things we can agree on.


"The expulsion of almost a million Palestinian in the "Nakbha" or catastrophe came after the massacre of Palestinian civilians at Deir Yassin and elsewhere as Palestinian and Israeli sources testify.
These Palestinians did not leave their homes willingly or happily as some zionists seem to take delight in suggesting."

The numbers I have seen are about 640,000 Palestinians, AND 820,000 JEWS. NEITHER group left their homes willingly.



Now, HOW MANY Moslems NOW live in Israel? And HOW MANY JEWS in the Arab countries?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 03:32 PM

btw, post of 04 Jun 07 - 08:36 AM was mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 03:35 PM

It must be a facet of Hell to quote the Party Line all the time. Takes away one's ability to think.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 04:00 PM

You can take a horse to water
But you cant make it drink
You can take a Zionist to the place of slaughter
But you can't make him think
Deir Yassin
Qana
Beirut
Sabra
Shatilla
Jenin
Khan Younnis
Gaza



with hats off to Roy Harper for the reference
IFOR

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 04:05 PM

Ifor,

Still waiting on my questions.

And I could give a list, as well.

Am I to presume that you only consider that Palestinians have any human rights, and Jews are some kind of sub-human animal in your view?? That is what I get from your comments and refusal to address any questions about the rights of Jews in this.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 04:10 PM

Ifor,

Since YOU mention Jenin, I have to presume you have problems with blue clickies and other advanced technology, in addition to your reading comprehension difficulty. So, I will post this for you:

Jenin comes to Lebanon. So where is the outcry?

Jonathan Kay, National Post
Published: Tuesday, May 29, 2007

Last week, the Lebanese army attacked a squalid Palestinian refugee camp that's become infested with Islamist suicide terrorists and guerilla fighters. On May 20, government troops surrounded the camp, with tanks and artillery pieces shelling it at close range. Army snipers gunned down anything that moved. At least 18 civilians were killed, and dozens more injured. Water and electricity were cut off. By week's end, much of the camp had been turned into deserted rubble. Thousands of terrified residents fleeing the camp reported harrowing stories of famished, parched families trapped in their basements.

How did the rest of the world react? The Arab League quickly condemned "the criminal and terrorist acts carried out by the terrorist group known as Fatah al-Islam," and vowed to "give its full support to the efforts of the army and the Lebanese government." EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana also condemned Fatah al-Islam, and declared Europe's "support" for Lebanon. And the UN Security Council called the actions of Fatah al-Islam "an unacceptable attack" on Lebanon's sovereignty. As for the Western media, most outlets ignored the story following the first flurry of news reports.

At this point, please indulge me by re-reading the first paragraph of this column -- except this time, substitute the world "Israeli" for "Lebanese" in the first sentence. Let's imagine what the world's reaction would be if the ongoing siege were taking place in Gaza or the West Bank instead of the Nahr al Bared refugee camp on the outskirts of Tripoli, Lebanon.

****First of all, a flood of foreign journalists would descend on the camp to document Israel's cruelty and barbarism, and the story would remain front page news to this day. Al-Jazeera would be a 24/7 montage of grieving mothers swearing revenge on the Zionist butchers, and rumours would swirl of mass graves and poison gas. The Arab League, EU and United Nations would condemn Israeli aggression -- as would the editorial board of The New York Times. The Independent would dispatch Robert Fisk to embed with Fatah al-Islam. And the newspaper's cartoonist, Dave Brown, would produce another award-winning rendition of his signature theme: Jews eating Palestinian babies.

Actually, we don't need to speculate: What I have just written is exactly what happened when the Israeli army invaded the Jenin refugee camp to root out terrorists in April, 2002, a battle that was similar in scale to this month's siege at Nahr al Bared. (At Jenin, 52 refugee camp residents were killed -- most of them gunmen, according to Human Rights Watch. At Nahr al Bared, the figure is 45 and climbing.) The main difference between the two sieges is that Israel's army put its troops at far greater risk by invading Jenin with infantry -- whereas the less humane Lebanese army has simply pummelled Nahr al Bared with explosives from a distance. Jews apparently care a lot more about saving Palestinian civilians than do Lebanese soldiers.

For years, we have been told that Palestinian suffering and "humiliation" is at the root of the Middle East conflict, as well as the Western-Muslim clash of civilizations more generally. This is nonsense: The 200,000-plus Palestinian refugees who live in Lebanese camps are treated worse than dogs -- with no access to decent schools or good jobs -- and no one in the Arab world cares a whit. In fact, many Arabs seem to embrace the same blind anti-Palestinian hatred of which Israel is typically accused. When Lebanese armoured personnel carriers rolled through Tripoli on May 20, they got a standing ovation from local residents. "We wish the government would destroy the whole camp and the rest of the camps," one local told The New York Times. "Nothing good comes out of the Palestinians."

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 04:53 PM

"If we were to have Israel give 1000 acres to each Palestinain that fled, and then took back 1000 acres for each Jew driven out of an Arab nation, how much of the Middle East would be a part of Israel? THAT is what you would have to accept, if you want to follow the logic you have proposed."

Not quite. Its your logic that is flawed.

While Israel is responsible for the Palestinians driven out of Israel, the Palestinians are not responsible for the Jews driven out of any other Arab nation.

Obviously, you think the Palestinians should be punished for the crimes of all Arabs. Thats a bit like thinking that all non-Jews are Nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 04:59 PM

"While Israel is responsible for the Palestinians driven out of Israel"

False statement. The ARAB NATIONS ( Arab League et al) TOLD them to leave: The ones that did are the refugees, the ones that did NOT leave, and accepted the Israeli invitations TO REMAIN and live in peace are the ones that are still IN ISRAEL, being killed by those illegal ( By UN and other international law) area bombardment rockets that you are so quiet about...

So, HOW MANY Moslems NOW live in Israel? And HOW MANY JEWS now live in the Arab countries?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 05:02 PM

"Obviously, you think the Palestinians should be punished for the crimes of all Arabs."


Since YOU have yet to accept that the ARABS did not resettle the Palestinians displaced in 1948, while the Israelis HAVE resettled the Jews driven out of Arab nations, it is obvious that you think the Israelis should be punished for the crimes of Arabs against the Palestinians..

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 05:09 PM

As far as I can see the arguments used by the Zionists to justify their slaughter ,imprisonment and humiliation of the Palestinians is a completely racist one and has something in common with how the nazis saw their slavic and Polish neighbours...underpeople.
Of course the Israeli military could teach the Lebanese army a great deal about how to attack a crowded refugee camp...it had had plenty of practice attacking Sabra ,Shatilla snd Jenin...and many others.

How many civilians,old men,women and children were massacred at the Beirut camps despite worthless security guarantees...the number was in the thousands?!
And the killers were given the green light to go in to do the wet work with their knives by that old butcher himself ... Sharon .
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 05:27 PM

Ifor,

Still waiting on my questions.

You mention Jenin- So you will ask the Palestinians to bring out the war criminals who ( in violation of the Geneva Conventions) put the military unit in the camp? And you will commend the Israelis who went in the camp, at greater risk, to AVOID civilian casualties (UNLIKE THE ARAB LEBONESE)? Or are you saying that it is OK for Arabs to kill Palestinians?????????????????

"Jews apparently care a lot more about saving Palestinian civilians than do Lebanese soldiers."

Try reading posts every once in a while, and addressing the words there instead of the next item on your list of things to mention.


Did I say I was still waiting for your answers to my questions??

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 07:10 PM

"The six-day war changed the Palestinians too. They had been scattered by the fighting that accompanied Israel's founding in 1948. Some fled beyond Palestine; others became citizens of the Jewish state or lived under Egypt in Gaza and Jordan in the West Bank. The 1967 war reunited them under Israeli control and so sharpened their own thwarted hunger for statehood. When, decades later, Egypt and Jordan did make peace with Israel, the Palestinians did not recover Gaza and the West Bank. This has left some 4m Palestinians desperate for independence but in a confined land choked by Jewish settlements—along with the fences, checkpoints and all the hardships and indignities of military occupation."

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9225670

bb - The Arabs who accepted the invitation to "remain and live in peace" or those who have been "re-settled" (under occupation) are also paying the price:

"According to a report submitted to the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination by Adalah, The Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, there are 17 Israeli laws that are discriminatory against Palestinians. These laws create a reality in which Palestinian citizens are deprived of basic educational, religious, social, and economic rights."

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/pubs/20001222ib.html

bb - You make it sound like the Arabs in Israel are living there with equal rights and those who are living in Palestine have made the choice of their own free will. Will you ever believe that the Israeli political machinery is ruthless and ego-centric? Probably not. Its easier for you to twist the truth and wallow in insecurity and hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 08:10 PM

"Its easier for you to twist the truth and wallow in insecurity and hatred. "


That seems to be Ifor and YOUR problem- I am STILL waiting for the answers to my questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 12:54 AM

bb - There is a reason I haven't bothered to answer your question, "HOW MANY Moslems NOW live in Israel? And HOW MANY JEWS now live in the Arab countries?"

IT IS TOTALLY IRRELEVANT!

The Moslems that now live in Israel are living as 2nd class citizens in their country which is under foreign occupation. Such a treat!

We are not talking about those who have re-settled, we are talking about those who are living in refugee camps created by the 6-day war. Their homes were once in the land now called Israel. At least the Jews who fled Arab countries didn't end up in a tent in the desert.

If you want to talk about re-settlement, lets count the number of European Jews who have re-settled in Israel and displaced the Palestinians that have been living in tents for the last forty years.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,al
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 02:07 AM

Any Mudcat readers who would like to see a first photo report of life under Israeli occupation might want to look at the website Rafah Report which is excellent and written by a Rafah resident living under siege and military terror.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 02:43 AM

Thanks, al. Here's the link:

http://rafah.virtualactivism.net/news/special.htm

I honestly cannot believe that anyone would condone the actions of the Israeli military. Whoever supports Israeli Zionists, supports inhumanity. Any Jew who sits idly by and allows this to happen, to innocent people, without protest, should be ashamed. By these actions, Jewish people cannot claim to be God's chosen people. God is righteous.

Never forget.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 09:40 AM

"Whoever supports Israeli Zionists, supports inhumanity. Any Jew who sits idly by and allows this to happen, to innocent people, without protest, should be ashamed."

Conversely, anyone who supports Hamas, supports inhumanity. Any Atrab who sits idly by and allows this to happen, to innocent people, without protest, should be ashamed.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 09:59 AM

"God is righteous."

God is dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 10:06 AM

Bottom line, regardless of which side you support in the Middle East mess is that Israel will not disappear willingly. An armed attempt to have them disappear (see Hamas Charter) will result in such devastation of the Middle East it will be uninhabitable by people for centuries if not thousands of year. So the crap about who's right and who's wrong comes to mean little. We all might be better to put our minds on how to achieve a peace settlement rather than quote, re-quote and re-quote again the histrionics. The sides have their views and neither has changed in the years I've seen this argued on Mudcat, or anywhere else for that matter. In fact, this thread is a microcosm of the real situation. The sides have no way to begin talking, so there is consistent war.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: bobad
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 10:40 AM

That is the most sensible commentary I have heard on this subject on the Mudcat yet. Bravo Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,al
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 01:41 PM

I am all in favour of talks but it would a major step forward for the Israelis to stop bombing Gaza,arrsting Palestinians ministers and elected representatives and shooting dead children as they have been doing this past month.
Unfortunately I dont expect this to happen.The more the Israelis crack down the more Palestinians have turned to Hamas a militant Islamic grpup in what was once quite a secular community.
al

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 02:06 PM

Good to read a sensible post, Peace. Yes, a ceasefire while a peace settlement is achieved would be an excellent start. Hate never cured anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 02:16 PM

I think that ALL of us agree that a ceasefire would be a good thing.

So where are the demands for Hamas to STOP the area bombardment rocket attacks on civilians?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 03:12 PM

back to the topic of THIS thread- although no-one here seems to care about dead Moslems, unless they can blame the Israelis for doing the killing.



Lebanese troops pound refugee camp

POSTED: 8:48 a.m. EDT, June 5, 2007

Story Highlights• Lebanese troops pound Islamic fighters besieged in Palestinian refugee camp
• 7 Fatah Islam members surrender to mainstream Fatah Palestinian faction
• Heavy gunfire in Nahr el-Bared camp as Lebanese army shells militant hideouts
• At least 5,000 refugees and several hundred militants still inside the camp

TRIPOLI, Lebanon (AP) -- Lebanese troops pounded Islamic militants hiding in a Palestinian refugee camp in northern Lebanon on Tuesday, on the fifth straight day of the military's sustained assault to crush the Fatah Islam fighters.

Meanwhile, seven Fatah Islam members surrendered to the mainstream Palestinian faction of Fatah in the southern parts of the besieged Nahr el-Bared refugee camp near the northern port city of Tripoli, a Palestinian commander said.

It was the first sign that a major Palestinian faction -- in this case the Fatah group of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas -- responded to calls by Lebanese authorities to actively campaign against the al Qaeda inspired Fatah Islam.

From his base in the southern Ein el-Hilweh Palestinian camp, Fatah commander Maj. Gen. Khaled Aref told The Associated Press that the seven in Nahr el-Bared came over to Fatah positions there, handed over their weapons and pledged to stay out of the fighting.

Aref also said that Fatah was trying to convince Palestinian residents of the camp who had sided with the militants to abandon the fight wreaking destruction on their homes.

After an overnight lull, fighting in Nahr el-Bared resumed Tuesday, with exchanges of heavy gunfire and sporadic explosions ringing out from the camp. Troops shelled militants' hideouts with artillery fire, sending up plumes of white and gray smoke.

Since Friday, when the army launched its offensive to drive the militants out, periods of lull and fierce fighting have alternated at the Nahr el-Bared camp and its outskirts.

The army stepped up its offensive against the militants, who embrace an al Qaeda-style doctrine, rejected government demands to surrender and vowed to fight to the death.

More than 100 people have been reported dead since the fighting first broke out May 20 between the army and Fatah Islam. It is the worst internal violence since the end of Lebanon's 1975-90 civil war.

In the Ein el-Hilweh camp -- which is Lebanon's single largest Palestinian camp -- Islamic militants clashed with Lebanese troops on Monday, threatening to open a new flashpoint that could complicate the military effort to defeat Fatah Islam.

Two government soldiers and a militant were reported killed in the fighting at Ein el-Hilweh, in the southern city of Sidon, which began when the Jund al-Sham group attacked army outposts late Sunday.

The assault was seen as an attempt by Jund al-Sham to ease military pressure on their allies Fatah Islam, battered by army attacks in Nahr el-Bared.

But on Tuesday, Ein el-Hilweh remained calm. A security force made up of Palestinian Islamic factions that was set up to prevent further Jund al-Sham frictions with the army, was expected to deploy in the camp's neighborhoods that were the scene of Monday's clashes.

The bombardment of Nahr el-Bared has angered Palestinians in some of Lebanon's 11 other refugee camps and there were fears that fighting could spread.

Also Monday, a bomb exploded in an empty bus parked in the Christian neighborhood of Bouchrieh east of Beirut, injuring 10 passers-by, officials said.

There was no claim of responsibility, but a string of bombings has hit the capital area since the fighting began at Nahr el-Bared.

Ten soldiers have been killed and 44 wounded at Nahr el-Bared since Friday. Army casualties since the fighting began stood at 45 dead at Nahr el-Bared and two at Ein el-Hilweh. About 60 Fatah Islam militants were also reported killed.

At least 20 civilians have been reported dead at Nahr el-Bared, but recent civilian casualties were unknown.

About 5,000 Palestinian refugees -- and a couple of hundred militants -- are believed to be still in Nahr el-Bared.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:12 PM

To Bearded Bruce
Methinks there is too much mock horror in your posting.

On the scale of things the Israeli air,sea and land attack on Lebanon last year dwarfed the present conflict and   destroyed much of its infrastructure and slaughtered thousands, mostly civilians ,who were blown up sheltering in homes or strafed and rocketed while fleeing in cars.

The Lebanese army then barely did anything to defend the country but has since gained heart [and American weapons ] to take on a very small fundamentalist group while smashing up a refugee camp and killing more civilians in the process.

This is part of the wider geo political game being played by the USA and I think is aimed at ultimately breaking Syria.
Indymedia UK carried this week an excellent article claiming that the Israelis were the likely killers of Hariri whose murder last year sparked off much of the present unrest.
IFOR

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:27 PM

Methinks you are interested only in the slaughter of all Israelis, ifor. That is what methinks. You see nothing wrong when Israelis are killed. Only when Arabs are killed. Give your racism a rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:54 PM

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 05:07 PM

I have seldom seen a condemnation of Hamas on the ifor (International Fellowship of Reconciliation) site. Yet they say they dislike all violence. Wonder why that is? Any answers anyone? Israel gets it lots, but not the other groups of bad guys in the Midlle East. WHY is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 05:51 PM

All I can say to you Peace is that you must have lived a very,very sheltered life.You seem to be truely astounded that anyone could support the Palestinians in their unequal conflict with Israel.

Quite frankly you need to get out a bit more and find out more about the crisis in Israel and the roots and nature of the ongoing conflict.

There are many millions out in the world who now support the Palestinians .They have seen the terrible things that have been done to them over many decades and support their demand for justice.

They support the Right of Return for Palestinian refugees and their children and grandchildren who are still suffering in the camps.

They support the demand that Israel ends its illegal occupation of the West Bank which has never been part of Israel but has now been settled by paramilitary zionist settler thugs who think nothing of abusing or harassing the Palestinians.

They support the removal of the disgusting Apartheid Wall which separates villages from their hinterlands and makes daily life humiliating and intolerable for the Palestinians.This is a wall built on Palestinian land.
They support the demand for the Israeli attacks on besieged Gaza to end.Gaza,where hundreds of children have been killed or wounded and tens of thousands terrorised by Israeli shelling ,rocket attacks and tank fire.
They are appalled by the Amnesty and HumanRights Watch reports on the appalling treatment meted out by the IDF against Palestinian civilians
They recognise that there will not be peace for Israelis or Palestinians until the Palestinians are treated with respect and with justice.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 06:42 PM

That doesn't answer my question.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 08:05 PM

BTW, I am still waiting for answers to my questions...

HOW MANY Jews are presently living in JORDAN - the Palestinian Moslem Homeland)?

HOW many Moslems are living in Israel?


BTW, what about the GREATER number of Jews driven out of the Arab nations?

Or do you insist that Arab Jews are not supposed to have the "rights" that YOU have demanded for the Palestinian Arabs?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 11:17 PM

Jews are not humans to him. Read his posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 12:16 AM

Peace
You really are talking such nonsense.I have tried to explain to you that millions across the world are opposed to Zionism and why.Those millions include many Jewish people who are keenly aware of the injustices meted out to the Palestinians by the IDF or the paramilitary settler thugs.
Those opposed to the oppression of Palestinians include Noam Chomsky,Israeli conscripts ho will not fight in the occupied territories,Ronnie Kasrils the Jewish South African minister,Israeli Women in Black who bear witness to the Palestinian suffering and many many more.
All this guff you hurl my way is truely pathetic.
It reminds me of the lad who writes the website "Rafah Reports "and who chronicles the dangerous
life in his camp.....he gets massive amounts of insults on his hate message board from Zionist thugs from across the world.
The road to peace will not be an easy one but it will not include the continuation of failed policies of oppression,imprisonment and militarism.
The Israeli political scene is bankrupt and corrupt with the head of Israelistate himself facing rape charges....there needs to be another path to peace.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 12:24 AM

I don't read your posts anymore, Ifor. You do not care about human rights. You have shown that time and time again with your posts in which you slam Israel at every turn with never a bad word for the other aggressors in the war. Until such time as you recognize the Palestinians and their various terror organizations are as much at fault for crappy diplomacy as are the Israelis, you will never be anything except another Jew hater as far as I am concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 02:03 AM

To Peace
For someone who does not read my posts any more you have done a pretty nifty job in replying to them.But do remember that this website is not called the Mudcat Zionist site.
Heddwch
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 09:32 AM

Nice try, ifor. And you remember this is not a site to whitewash terrorists of any nationality.
Sholem
Peace

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 10:21 AM

In fact, Ifor, I'll go you one better. If you are willing to make the 'heddwch' you mentioned, lets try to find a way to open dialogue between Israel and Palestine. Histrionics will get us nowhere. But greater things have happened from the efforts of common people like us. Give it a thought and let me know.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,Amotz Asa-El
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 02:54 PM

The Six Days War, which broke out 40 years ago this week and left the Arab world, the Jewish people and the international community stunned, still boggles the mind.

The fighting -- in which Israel debilitated three armies and conquered the West Bank, Gaza, the Sinai, the Golan and ancient Jerusalem in less than a week -- has made Israel's enemies distort its causes and effects. Here are the facts, the way I recall them as a third-grader in Jerusalem.

As Independence Day ended, news broke out that the Egyptian army had crossed the Sinai Peninsula and camped along the Israeli border. By the weekend, we were besieged, as Egypt blockaded the Red Sea and expelled United Nations peacekeepers from Gaza, while Jordan and Syria deployed along our northern and eastern borders. One hundred million people, armed, trained and inspired by the Soviet Union, were ganging up on a country the size of New Jersey with a population smaller than Tennessee's.

It was a casus belli by any dictionary definition. Yet today Israel's detractors conveniently begin the story from the actual fighting of June 1967, which indeed began when we Israelis extracted ourselves from the shooting range where we were to be sitting targets and pre-empted the marksman aiming his barrel into our collective forehead. Israel initiated but only tactically. The strategic initiative -- the brazen, unprovoked choice to wage war -- was Arab.

No rewritten history will make Israelis forget the course of events as we experienced them. We won't forget the anxiety on the faces of the adults -- mostly Holocaust survivors -- as war approached. We won't forget how every day we learned of another diplomatic failure to undo the siege, how we filled sandbags and placed them on windowsills to the sound of Hebrew broadcasts from Cairo Radio that promised to "throw the Jews into the sea" -- which was meant, and taken, literally.

Today, the ultimate anti-Israeli slogan shared by British liberals, Russian fascists, Gazan zealots, Iranian Mullahs and Lebanese pseudo-patriots is "end the occupation." Gullible Westerners conclude that Israel's enemies merely want it tamed, that characters such as Mahmoud Ahmedinejad, Hassan Nassrallah or Haled Mash'al are merely challenging its policies, not its right to live.

But they are. As they themselves concede when asked explicitly enough, to them not only the conquests of '67, but even Tel Aviv is "occupied Palestine," just as to them all U.N. resolutions about the Mideast are binding except the original one, the one that said that not only the Palestinians, but the Jews, too, deserve a state.

Had it not been for the obsessive urge to erase the Jewish state, there would have been no occupation to decry today. For the problem with the Six Days War in the eyes of Israel's enemies is not the occupation that followed it nor, of course, the belligerency that preceded it, but the victory that defined it and constituted one of the swiftest blows liberty ever dealt autocracy.

Had the occupation been their problem with post-1967 Israel, Israel's enemies would have even celebrated its successive election of leaders such as Rabin, Barak, Sharon and Olmert who each sought to end the occupation. Sad to say, all four saw Israel's enemies prove unreconstructed despite them, as the newly unoccupied Gaza's shelling of Israel, within its internationally recognized borders, demonstrates daily.

There's nothing new about this tunnel vision. In 1967 Israel offered a land-for-peace deal, but the Arab states announced they would never make peace, recognize or even just talk with Israel. With that kind of rigidity, the Arab states maneuvered the Palestinians into Israeli occupation. Then as now, they could have chosen peace.

A lot has changed since 1967.

Egypt and Jordan made peace with Israel, the East Bloc unraveled, and a million Soviet Jews arrived in Israel. However, in Tehran, Beirut, Damascus and Gaza, the blind hatred is alive and well, even if it now cleverly manipulates Western disdain for such terms as "occupation."

Had a passer-by wondered in May 1967, "Why are you filling sandbags?" we would have answered: "We have no choice." Four decades on, when you hear Israel's enemies decry occupation, remember: They have a choice, they can have peace, yet they have war, and the reason they have war in 2007 is the same reason they had it in 1967: It's what they want.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 03:16 PM

Unless you are he who is a frequent contributor and past editor (?) to the Jerusalem Post, I don't think it right to use the name Amotz Asa-El. No offense.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: C. Ham
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 09:18 PM

Peace,

Whether or not Amotz Asa-El posted the article himself, it is definitely his article.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 10:59 PM

True enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 01:02 AM

End the occupation! Get those paramilitay Zionist thugs out of the West Bank.

It's not Israeli land and never was .
FREE PALESTINE!
Stop the attack on Gaza and stop making war on its civilian population.

Dismantle the Apartheid Wall.

With justice there is a chance for peace but with the oppression there will only be further conflict stoked up for future generations.

ifor
ps I have just found out that of the 10 Palestinian members of the Israeli Knesset...9 have been assaulted by security forces and 7 hospitalised during the past few years.These people are Israeli citizens but it is atatse of what is to come as Israel readies itself for more ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 09:43 AM

So, I take it your answer is no. Fuck you, then!

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 10:07 AM

I figured I'd post this before idiot blames the Israelis:

"By Xinhua. Gaza Strip, Palestinian Territories, 05:01 PM IST


A Fatah-affiliated man was killed Thursday morning in clashes with members of rival Hamas movement in the southern Gaza Strip, security sources and a medic said.

The street battles killed Wael Wahbi, 27 and injured nine others including three children, said the medical source, adding that at least two have sustained serious wounds.

A Hamas website quoted sources from the Islamic movement as saying that a group of Hamas fighters came under fire in Rafah, a town in southern Gaza strip and the gunmen 'responded to the fire's source.'

'The shooting has led to the death of Wahbi,' the unidentified sources told Palestinian Media Network of Hamas.

The clashes were the first since an Egyptian-brokered ceasefire reached by the two rival movements on May 19.

Thursday's clash came at the time when various Palestinian factions, including Fatah and Hamas, flocked to Cairo for talks about reinforcing the two-week-old ceasefire.

Last month, Hamas and Fatah fought each other in the deadliest clashes since they formed a unity government in March. More than 52 Palestinians were killed."

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: bobad
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 10:28 AM

Israel has told Syria it is willing to trade land for peace and is waiting to hear whether President Bashar Assad would cut ties with Iran and hostile guerilla groups in return.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/06/09/wmid109.xml

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 12:19 PM

The Golan Heights? Now that is a step in the right direction. I wonder what the residents think about that?

"Were Syria to abandon its Shia allies in Lebanon and Iran in exchange for peace with the Jewish state, it would seriously weaken Israel's most potent foes." (From the article linked by bobad)

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: C. Ham
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 01:04 PM

Hopefully, we'll see President Bashar Assad assume the same kind of courage -- the courage to make peace -- that President Anwar Sadat of Egypt and King Hussein of Jordan eventually assumed.

A courage that Yasir Arafat feigned on the lawn of the White House on September 13, 1993 but ultimately rejected.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,al
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 01:30 AM

Israel want peace ,of course it does,but on its terms...which is dominance of its neghbours and a subservient Palestinian population which will agree to its transfer out of Israeli occupied territories on the one hand or a sevile and compliant existence in chopped up "bantustan" holdings on the other.
I dont think it is going to happen.Last summer the Israeli army had a bloody nose in Lebanon and in Gaza the strangle hold and military attacks have not subdued the million plus population.
AL

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 10:41 AM

Al, old chum,


Palestinians want peace, of course- as long as they get total control of the area that is now Israel, in addition to the Moslem Palestinian homeland of Jordan (where Jews are NOT allowed to be citizens, or settle). They won't really be happy unless they kill all the Jews, too. I don't think it is going to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 02:56 PM

"The army says the militants triggered the conflict on May 20 by attacking its positions around the camp and on the outskirts of the nearby city of Tripoli."

So it isn't just the Israelis who get fed up with that crap. Good to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,al
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 02:29 AM

Amazing how the Lebanese army did next to nothing when Israel invaded last summer more or less destroying the country but has stirred itself on the orders of the govt to attack a small fundamentalist group which originally had strong links to the govt.
al

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 03:34 AM

40 years ago the Israelis recovered Jewish territory and defended their homeland successfully.

They had no other option.

After the successful defense of their homeland, they offered peace to their bellicose neighbors. They were spurned by the humiliated opponents who were resupplied by their Soviet mentors.

The Arabs began to think in terms of peace when their almost successful invasion of Israel (The Yom Kippur war of 1973) allowed them to salvage their bruised war egos.

Egypt got all their land back when they made peace. For some reason, they didn't want the so-called Palestinians.

Lebanon has been destabilized more than once by so-called Palestinian people.

Due to the attitudes of the people themselves, there is no motivation for Israel to take on this unequal burden.

Jordan has effectively been turned into a Palestinian State and should take on most of the rest of the displaced unhappy people.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 12:47 PM

Excuse me...recovered "Jewish territory".?at the start of the 20th century the Jewish population of what is now Israel was less than 10 percent of the population.The IDF went in and took control of land and farms and towns and cities that were not Israeli and not exclusively Jewish.There were and are "occupied territories".The Israeli govt has allowed the settlment of these lands by gun totin right wing Zionist paramilitaries who have terrorised the Palestinian people of those lands ever since. Most of these Zionist groups came from the USA or Russia.
albert

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 03:37 PM

Robomatic,

"In 1923 the British "chopped off" 75% of the proposed Jewish Palestinian homeland to form an Arab Palestinian Nation of "Trans-Jordan," meaning "across the Jordan River." The Palestinian Arabs now had THEIR homeland... the remaining 25% of the original Palestinian territory (west of the Jordan River) was to be the Jewish Palestinian homeland."

http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/Graphics/Maps/PartitionforTransJordan.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 05:04 PM

guest, albert

what's your point?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,albert
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 05:22 PM

In answer to your question Robomatic.....
The state of Israel was founded on the wholesale ethnic cleansing of the indiginous Palestinians.
This was not an empty land as so often claimed by Zionists. This was a land lived in for hundreds and thousands of years by its Palestinian population .They lived in towns and cities ,farms and villages.
They have been made into refugees,exiles or now live under the Israeli gun and baton in the occupied territories or in besieged Gaza.
Here is the crux of the problem.The Palestinians have been robbed of their lands and homes but will not surrender to a half life in the bantustans planned for them by the Israelis. But the Israelis also have problems.They now live in one of the most militarised and yet dangerous countries in the world.And the Palestinian population in Israel itself and in the occupied territories, is growing-fast.What next? The expulsion of Israeli arabs/Palestinians out of Israel and into exile...a recipe for more conflict.
And meanwhile nuclear armed Israel is led by a corrupt and venal clique of failed right wing politicians who have nothing to offer but more invasions and more bombs.Yet the Israeli army took a bloody nose in the hills of Lebanon last year.
A change is gonna come!
Albert

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 05:29 PM

Hamas is taking control of Palestinian schools

POSTED: 4:10 p.m. EDT, June 11, 2007

Hamas will control Palestinian Education Ministry for three more years
Hamas has begun taking control of schools and making changes
Some Palestinians say Hamas' goal is to shape political views of students
Hamas leaders insist they are not trying to indoctrinate children

KUFR NAMEH, West Bank (AP) Palestinian children spend more of their school day studying Islam. Critical jobs in public education are filled by Islamic stalwarts. A once-banned social studies reader, crammed with hard-line rhetoric, is now in classrooms.

During a year in power, the Islamic Hamas movement has begun taking control of Palestinian schools and is making changes.

Hamas leaders insist they are not trying to indoctrinate children. But moderate Palestinians say Hamas' goal is nothing less than shaping the political views of future generations.

It's a battle for the Palestinian soul, part of a wider Hamas campaign to expand its influence in all spheres of public life, also including newspapers to unions, said Hanan Ashrawi, a secular former minister of higher education.

"You are seeing the gradual transformation of a largely secular national ... education system and curriculum into a more ideological, closed system," said Ashrawi.

Hamas shares power with the moderate Fatah movement it defeated in last year's election, and the terms of that coalition will keep it in control of the Education Ministry for three more years.

Hamas doesn't have completely free rein in the schools. It's being scrutinized by Fatah and by the largely secular Palestinian intelligentsia. Ashrawi, now an independent legislator, says she has asked Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, a moderate who heads Fatah, to hand control of the curriculum to an independent commission of experts, but has gotten no commitment.

"We are not making education more Islamic," Education Minister Nasser Shaer said before he was arrested by Israel in an anti-Hamas sweep last month. But he is also under pressure within his movement to apply a clearly Islamic, non-Western curriculum. For example: Hamas firebrands want to eliminate U.S. history from a textbook.

So far, Shaer has made only a few changes. He has increased religion classes from three to four a week and allowed a social studies reader with a strong Islamic bent to be used in the classroom.

He has focused mostly on moving Hamas loyalists into key positions in the education system, presumably preparing the ground for tighter control in the future.

(more)

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 05:31 PM

When a high-level education job opens up, it goes to a Hamas supporter, with appointees often leapfrogging over other candidates with stronger credentials. Eight of 14 West Bank school districts are now controlled by Hamas, from none a year ago, and the new religion requirement meant hiring some 300 graduates of Islamic teachers' colleges that are Hamas strongholds, Fatah educators say.

Hamas created another power base in education by forming its own teachers' union to compete with the one controlled by Fatah. It claims to have signed up some 18,000 teachers, including those in private schools, but also many of the 40,000 teaching in public schools in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Hamas teachers, many sporting the movement's trademark beards, recently marched through Ramallah, chanting, "Let's restore glory to religion and dignity to the teacher."

In some cases, girls are pushed by pro-Hamas teachers to pray and wear head scarves, although no law requires it. Hala Barghouti, 11, from the village of Deir Yassin, said she is transferring from a public school to a private Christian one next year to escape the nagging.

Political tension inside the schools is rising, others say.

Tenth-grader Sumara Awaiseh, a Fatah supporter in a Ramallah school, said he gets into fights with pro-Hamas classmates. "They'll chant something against Fatah and that's how fights get started," he said.

While Fatah supports a Palestinian state alongside Israel, Hamas refuses to recognize the Jewish state and renounce violence.

One of Hamas' first acts after taking control was to lift a ban on private teaching materials, including one that adopts a tough Islamic approach to the conflict with Israel.

That booklet was written by al-Buraq, a Hamas-allied education center shut down by Israel several months ago. The preface says it seeks to "emphasize the Arab and Islamic identity" of the Palestinians, highlight the "brutality of the occupier" and "to create the energy to get rid of all types of occupation."

During the second Palestinian uprising, it says, American cease-fire initiatives "ignored the political rights of the Palestinian people and did not recognize the Palestinian people's right to resistance to regain its rights." In contrast, the draft of a textbook for grades 8-10 on modern Palestinian history, written when Fatah controlled the schools, is a largely matter-of-fact description of events. Fatah educators claim Hamas held up its printing because it's too neutral. Hamas denies it.

Shaer, while removing the ban, hasn't explicitly recommended the al-Buraq booklet to the students - to the disappointment of the Islamic center which had presumed it now had a sympathetic ear in the ministry. And some Hamas ideologues are getting impatient with the slow pace of change.

"We want to implement the Palestinian dimension, and the Islamic and Arabic dimension," said Hamas legislator Sheik Hamed Bitawi. "Anything that comes in conflict with our Islamic ideology should be taken out."

(more)

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 05:40 PM

Last summer, Bitawi and other Hamas members of parliament's Education Committee demanded that a chapter on American history be removed from a 12th grade textbook, arguing that the U. S. is an enemy of the Palestinians and that students should instead learn about Japan and other nations they deemed more supportive.

The proposal never got far - sidetracked in part because most Hamas legislators were rounded up by Israel after last summer's capture of an Israeli soldier by Hamas-allied militants in Gaza. Bitawi was also arrested in last month's Israeli sweep, along with more than 30 senior Hamas officials.

(paragraph removed so it would post to thread)

Outside approval is important because Palestinian public schools depend on foreign aid. Before international sanctions were imposed last year in an effort to force Hamas to recognize Israel's existence, public schools received more than $350 million over a decade, most of it for building new classrooms.

Any attempt to radically change the textbooks would likely create an uproar and undermine the government's efforts to portray itself as politically moderate and restore foreign aid.

Where Hamas has been most aggressive is in replacing senior Fatah-allied educators with Hamas loyalists.

Fatah supporters old enough to retire were sent home. Others kept their jobs, but were stripped of their authority. Fatah's Jihad Zakarneh, who had been in charge of hiring teachers in the West Bank, had his signing powers revoked. In Gaza City, a senior Fatah loyalist, speaking on condition of anonymity for fear of repercussions, said he now spends his day in the ministry reading newspapers.

In the West Bank city of Hebron, the Fatah-affiliated deputy chief of the local school district, Nisrine Amr, sued Education Minister Shaer after he named a private Islamic school principal as her boss. When the new boss in turn was arrested by Israeli troops two months ago, another Hamas-allied educator was brought in as a temporary replacement, rather than allowing Amr to step in, as protocol would have suggested.

" They didn't even give us a chance to run it (the district) for one day because we are not of their political persuasion," said Amr.

The Education Ministry denied it is hiring teachers and administrators based on their politics, but said that Shaer, like any politician, had the right to surround himself with trusted staffers.

" In the recruitment policy, the changes were very slight," said ministry spokesman Basri Saleh. "There is nothing about marginalizing that team of people or giving an advantage to this team of people."

However, Hamas' rivals fear the Islamic movement has plenty of time to overhaul the system, slowly.

Azzam Al-Ahmed, the deputy prime minister from Fatah, said Hamas " tries and keeps trying" to change education. " If they continue in power for a long time, they will succeed," he said.

Computer teacher Riham Diek says she already feels the shift.

" As a mother, I am very afraid for my children," said Diek, whose 14-year-old daughter Naheel is being hounded by pro-Hamas teachers in her West Bank village of Kufr Nameh to trade her jeans and denim jacket for a head scarf and robe.

" We want a generation that is able to deal with the rules of freedom and democracy," she said.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 05:40 PM

(attempt to post missing paragraph)

Palestinian textbooks, written in stages over the past seven years to replace Egyptian and Jordanian imports, are under intense Israeli and international scrutiny for possible anti -Israel incitement. For example, an Israeli watchdog group complained recently that the Holocaust is not taught in a high school history book.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 05:45 PM

Al,

YOU state "The Palestinians have been robbed of their lands and homes "

I am STILL waiting for the answers to my questions:

HOW MANY Jews are presently living in JORDAN - the Palestinian Moslem Homeland)?

HOW many Moslems are living in Israel?


BTW, what about the GREATER number of Jews driven out of the Arab nations?

Or do you insist that Arab Jews are not supposed to have the "rights" that YOU have demanded for the Palestinian Arabs?


In addition, can you please tell me how your comments relate to the present attacks on Palestinian camps by the Lebanese Army? THAT is the topic of the thread- LEBONESE MOSLEMS KILLING PALESTINIANS BECAUSE THE PALESTINIANS ARE ACTING TOWARD THE LEBONESE LIKE THEY DO TOWARDS THE ISRAELIS.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 07:07 PM

Guest "Ifor " ---- I do not know whether or not Mossad still exists in its old form, but if I were you, I would be rather hoping that A) it doesn"t , and B) if it does, I hope they don"t monitor Mudcat !!
   Meanwhile, may I just say that, if the worst came to the worst, and the proverbial chips were really down, then, despite being a Gentile, I would probably feel compelled to go to Israel to help out in whatever way I could-----would you do the same for your Arab friends ??? I fancy not !! Perhaps you could turn your undoubted talents to restoring to the Cheyenne, the Sioux, the Arapahoe, et al , their country ?? ( It"s called the USA, by the way ).
    Shalom
                Roger......

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 07:10 PM

"The state of Israel was founded on the wholesale ethnic cleansing of the indiginous Palestinians."

No offense, "Al", but that's as close to pure horseshit as anything you've said so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 08:11 PM

Funny thing that, you know what Bubblyrat just said. I'd go along with that, sort of like all those people who went to fight against Franco in the Spanish Civil War.

Hallo there Guest ifor and Guest al !!! Take a bloody good look at the Middle-East from 1948 to present day. As the common-or-garden-man-in-the-street under whose regime would you have prospered?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 02:52 AM

"Or do you insist that Arab Jews are not supposed to have the "rights" that YOU have demanded for the Palestinian Arabs?"

Do Moslems in Israel enjoy the same rights as Jews in Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 03:10 AM

"Do Moslems in Israel enjoy the same rights as Jews in Israel?"

As Israeli citizens yes they do. They also share the same responsibilities with the exception that if the muslim happens to be an Arab he is not required to do military service, compulsory for all other Israeli citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 01:08 PM

dianavan,

An equivalent question to mine, considering the original statements I was responding to, would be:

Do Jews in ARAB nations enjoy the same rights as Moslems in Israel?

Would you care to anwer that? Remember, it is ILLEGAL to be Jewish and reside, even as a non-citizen, in Jordan ( The PALESTINIAN Moslem Homeland) or Saudi Arabia. Let me know what you find out about the other Arab nations.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 01:52 PM

And now, BACK to the thread topic... MOSLEMS killing MOSLEMS


Hamas Attacks Fatah Security HQ in Gaza

AP - Tue, 12 Jun 2007 11:11:20 -0400 (EDT)
By DIAA HADID

Hamas gunmen attacked the headquarters of Fatah-allied forces in northern Gaza with mortars and grenades Tuesday and captured several smaller positions in what Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah alleged was a coup attempt by the Islamic militants.

More than 80 people have been killed since mid-May, most of them militants, including two on Tuesday.

Security commanders loyal to Abbas complained they were not given clear orders to fight back at a time when Hamas appeared to be moving forward according to a plan.

Abbas' Fatah movement was to meet later in the day to decide whether to pull out of his shaky coalition with Hamas. Calls by Abbas and exasperated Egyptian mediators for a cease-fire went unheeded.

Instead, Hamas and Fatah militants threatened to kill each other's leaders. In Gaza, a rocket-propelled grenade damaged the home of Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas but caused no injuries in what Hamas said was an attempted assassination. In the West Bank, Fatah gunmen kidnapped a deputy Cabinet minister from Hamas.

Heavy gunbattles erupted in several locations in Gaza.

Some 200 Hamas fighters surrounded the headquarters of Fatah-allied forces in northern Gaza, a key prize for Hamas. The attackers fired mortar shells and RPGs at the compound, where some 500 security officers were holed up.

"They are attacking from all sides," said one of the officers, Khaled Awad.

Hamas gunmen also exchanged fire with Fatah forces at the southern security headquarters in the southern town of Khan Younis, but had not yet launched a major assault. The town's streets were empty as people huddled indoors.

Col. Nasser Khaldi, a Fatah commander in southern Gaza, confirmed his men were on the defensive. Khaldi said Abbas, the leader of Fatah, must give orders now to fight back.

"There is a weakness of our leaders," he said. "Hamas is just taking over our positions. There are no orders."

Heavy gunfire was heard throughout Gaza City, and a huge plume of white smoke rose into the air. One battle took place around the headquarters of the Preventive Security agency -- a powerful pro-Fatah force.

Pro-Fatah forces attacked the Hamas-run Al-Aqsa TV and radio stations in Gaza City after security officials said they received orders to stop the broadcasts. Shortly after the attack, they started broadcasting pro-Fatah songs, a sign the security forces had taken control.

Hamas and Fatah have been locked in a violent power struggle since Hamas defeated Fatah in January 2006 legislative elections, ending four decades of Fatah rule.

The sides agreed to share power in an uneasy coalition three months ago, but put off key disputes, including control of the security forces. Most are dominated by Fatah loyalists, while Hamas has formed its own militia, in addition to the thousands of gunmen at its command.

Two days of fighting has left 18 Palestinians dead, including two Tuesday, in violence that has grown increasingly brutal. Some people were shot execution-style or hit in shootouts that turned hospitals into battle grounds, while others were thrown from rooftops. Residents huddled indoors, and university exams were canceled.

The head of the Egyptian mediation team, Lt. Col. Burhan Hamad, said neither side responded to his call to hold truce talks. "It seems they don't want to come. We must make them ashamed of themselves. They have killed all hope. They have killed the future," said Hamad, who brokered several previous short-lived cease-fires.

Hamad said both sides were about equal in firepower. "Neither can have a decisive victory," he said. "To be decisive, they need weapons that neither side has."

A gunbattle erupted at the European Hospital in Khan Younis when Hamas militants controlling the rooftop traded fire with Fatah-allied security forces. Fifteen children attending a kindergarten in the line of fire were rushed into the hospital.

The RPG that hit Haniyeh's home in the Shati refugee camp on the outskirts of Gaza City struck the side of the house while the family was inside, said his son, Abdel Salam. A Hamas Web site described the incident as an assassination attempt by Fatah. "They crossed all the red lines," said Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum.

Elsewhere, a member of the Hamas military wing was kidnapped and killed by Fatah gunmen. He was identified as a cousin of Abdel Aziz Rantisi, a Hamas leader who was assassinated by Israel in 2004.

Separately, Hamas gunmen attacked the home of a senior Fatah security official with mortars and grenades, killing his 14-year-old son and three women inside, security officials said. Other Fatah gunmen stormed the house of a Hamas lawmaker and burned it down.

The fighting also spilled into the West Bank, with Palestinian security forces seizing two employees of the Hamas-linked Al-Aqsa TV station in Ramallah. Fatah gunmen said Hamas leaders in the West Bank, a Fatah stronghold, would be targeted if Hamas doesn't halt its attacks in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 03:56 PM

Hamas captures Fatah security HQ in Gaza

By DIAA HADID, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 3 minutes ago



GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Hamas gunmen captured the headquarters of the       Fatah-allied security forces in northern Gaza, seizing control of a key prize in the bloody power struggle between the sides, Hamas and Fatah officials said.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah said Tuesday's fighting amounted to a coup attempt by the Islamic militants.

Hamas attacked the compound with mortars and automatic gunfire, and after several hours of battle, seized control, said Hamas commander Wael al-Shakra. A Fatah security official confirmed the building had been lost. He said at least 10 people were killed and 30 wounded.

Security commanders loyal to Abbas complained they were not given clear orders to fight back at a time when Hamas appeared to be moving forward according to a plan.

Abbas' Fatah movement was to meet later in the day to decide whether to pull out of his shaky coalition with Hamas. Calls by Abbas and exasperated Egyptian mediators for a cease-fire went unheeded.

Instead, Hamas and Fatah militants threatened to kill each other's leaders. In Gaza, a rocket-propelled grenade damaged the home of Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas but caused no injuries in what Hamas said was an attempted assassination. In the       West Bank, Fatah gunmen kidnapped a deputy Cabinet minister from Hamas.

Hamas gunmen also exchanged fire with Fatah forces at the southern security headquarters in the southern town of Khan Younis, but had not yet launched a major assault. The town's streets were empty as people huddled indoors.

Col. Nasser Khaldi, a Fatah commander in southern Gaza, confirmed his men were on the defensive. Khaldi said Abbas, the leader of Fatah, must give orders now to fight back.

"There is a weakness of our leaders," he said. "Hamas is just taking over our positions. There are no orders."

Pro-Fatah forces attacked the Hamas-run Al-Aqsa TV and radio stations in Gaza City after security officials said they received orders to stop the broadcasts. Shortly after the attack, they started broadcasting pro-Fatah songs, a sign the security forces had taken control.

Hamas and Fatah have been locked in a violent power struggle since Hamas defeated Fatah in January 2006 legislative elections, ending four decades of Fatah rule.

The sides agreed to share power in an uneasy coalition three months ago, but put off key disputes, including control of the security forces. Most are dominated by Fatah loyalists, while Hamas has formed its own militia, in addition to the thousands of gunmen at its command.

The infighting has grown increasingly brutal. Some of those killed were shot execution-style or hit in shootouts that turned hospitals into battle grounds, while others were thrown from rooftops. Residents huddled indoors, and university exams were canceled.

The head of the Egyptian mediation team, Lt. Col. Burhan Hamad, said neither side responded to his call to hold truce talks. "It seems they don't want to come. We must make them ashamed of themselves. They have killed all hope. They have killed the future," said Hamad, who brokered several previous short-lived cease-fires.

Hamad said both sides were about equal in firepower. "Neither can have a decisive victory," he said. "To be decisive, they need weapons that neither side has."

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:11 AM

How ordinary "Palestinians" must despair. For all the high blown rhetoric and empty promises of Syria and Iran and their own leaders, whether they be tribal, religious or elected. When on earth are they going to actually get a leadership that will put the best interests of the people before all else.

The path of the posturing Jihadists and Fedahyeen follows a well beaten path:
1) Empty public displays of over excited Edjits chanting at the tops of their voices like morons and emptying their AK47's magazine after magazine into the air (Where the hell do all those bullets go??).

2) Empty promises of action against the ........... (fill in whatever, foreign invader/infidel/zionist).

3) After rather ineffectual attempts at step 2 in which they come off decidedly second best. They then turn against their own (It's happened time, after time, after time).

When are the "Palestinian" people going to realise that these clowns are taking them nowhere.

Some suggestions for future reference for any refugee camp set up in the area:

1) Should be under strict UN control (No "No-Go Areas" allowed within the camp).

2) Laws of the host country should apply within the camp.

3) Absolutely no arms permitted.

4) Political activity restricted to matters relating to interface between those running the camp and those living in it.

5) Commitment to integrate refugees into the society of the host nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 03:00 PM

Hamas pounds main Fatah security posts

By DIAA HADID, Associated Press Writer
36 minutes ago



GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Hamas pounded Gaza City's three main security compounds and President Mahmoud Abbas' headquarters with mortars, grenades and assault rifles Wednesday, calling on beleaguered       Fatah forces to surrender in an apparent attempt to take control of the entire       Gaza Strip.

In one dramatic victory, hundreds of members of a Fatah-allied clan that had fought fiercely surrendered to masked Hamas gunmen. They were led — arms raised in the air — to a nearby mosque.

Fatah fighters desperately tried to cling to their positions, but appeared outgunned by Hamas. One of the battles raged around the headquarters of the Fatah-allied Preventive Security, with both sides firing wildly from high-rise rooftops.

Violence between the factions, which nominally share power in the Palestinian government, has rapidly spiraled toward all-out civil war.

Dr. Wael Abdel Jawad, a physician trapped in his apartment in the line of fire, said he heard Fatah fighters shouting at colleagues on an adjacent roof to send them more ammunition.

"All of us are terrified here. Shooting came through the windows of our apartment, children are screaming. We are hearing from a nearby mosque the call by Hamas to surrender," he said.

Fatah's leader, Abbas, who is in the       West Bank, called the fighting "madness," but his appeals for a cease-fire rang increasingly hollow as Hamas gunmen took over or destroyed one base or another of his security forces. Later, his office and residential compound in Gaza came under attack, with Hamas fighters firing at Fatah forces guarding an access road.

Hamas has ignored calls for a cease-fire, and its hard-liners said the offensive would continue.

The State Department denounced the violence as a direct attack by the most radical elements of Hamas on legitimate Palestinian authorities. Spokesman Sean McCormack said Washington had no indication that       Israel might intervene to try to stop the infighting.

Hamas moved systematically throughout the day, taking control of key Fatah positions. Fatah commanders complained they were not given clear orders by Abbas to fight back and that they had no central command. Fatah's strongman in Gaza, Mohammed Dahlan, has spent the last few weeks in Cairo for treatment of a knee injury.

At least 15 people were killed Wednesday, bringing the death toll in the four-day campaign to more than 50.

Among those killed Wednesday was a man who joined a nonviolent protest of the fighting in Gaza City. Also shot dead were two women from the Fatah-allied Bakr clan whose members had surrendered to Hamas. According to a clan member, the women tried to leave the area after the surrender to take a sick girl to a hospital and were shot on the street by jittery Hamas gunmen.

Hamas attacked the three main compounds of Fatah-allied forces in Gaza City — the headquarters of the Preventive Security, the Intelligence Service and the National Forces — in what could usher in the final phase of the battle.

The fighters, firing rockets and mortar shells, took over the rooftops in nearby houses and cut off the roads to prevent Fatah reinforcements from arriving.

Hamas gunmen in high-rise buildings also fired at Abbas' Gaza office and house and his guard force returned fire. Abbas was in the West Bank at the time.

Earlier, Hamas militants surrounded a security headquarters in the southern Gaza town of Khan Younis and ordered everyone inside to leave or they would blow the building up, witnesses said. The building was then destroyed by a bomb planted in a tunnel beneath it, said Ali Qaisi, a presidential guard spokesman.

Security forces later said they lost control of the town.

"Khan Younis is finished, but we are still holding on in Rafah," said Ziad Sarafandi, a senior security official, referring to a town south of Khan Younis. But soon after, Hamas militants blew up a second security building near Rafah after a long gunbattle, said Col. Nasser Khaldi, a senior police official.

"Hamas surrounded the building, they had come from Khan Younis to Rafah, they are working by plan," he said.

The Popular Resistance Committees, a militant group allied with Hamas, said it had taken control of Gaza's border with Egypt to prevent arms smuggling and to ensure that Gaze residents did not flee over the border.

Shops in Gaza City were closed, and streets were mostly empty as terrified residents huddled in homes. The U.N. Relief and Works Agency said it couldn't distribute food to the 30 percent of the Gaza Strip that relies on international aid.

The agency's Gaza director, John Ging, said the agency would curtail its operations after two of its Palestinian workers were killed by crossfire, but insisted, "We are scaling back, we are not pulling back."

Hamas and Fatah have waged a sporadic power struggle since Hamas won parliament elections last year, ending four decades of Fatah rule. But the battles have worsened as Hamas waged a systematic assault on security forces to take over Gaza.

Fighting between the two factions, which nominally share power in the Palestinian government, spilled into the Fatah-dominated West Bank. Militants exchanged fire in the city of Nablus and a nearby refugee camp, after Fatah gunmen tried to storm a pro-Hamas TV production company. Hamas said 12 people of its fighters were wounded.

Abbas appealed by phone to Hamas' exiled leader in       Syria, Khaled Mashaal, to end the violence.

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri, said the clashes could have been avoided if Abbas had given the Hamas-led Cabinet control over the security forces, which he blamed for a wave of kidnappings, torture and violence in Gaza.

"The president bears complete responsibility for the current crisis," he said.

The mounting bloodshed touched off protests in two main Gaza towns.

Several hundred tribal leaders, women, children and Islamic Jihad militants turned out in Gaza City for a protest initiated by Egyptian mediators. Some demonstrators scattered after masked Hamas gunmen fired in the air, but others pushed on, carrying Palestinian flags and shouting, "Do not shoot" and "national unity" over a loudspeaker.

Witnesses said Hamas gunmen shot at the protesters as they approached the home of Fatah loyalists, trapping them.

Protester Bilal Qurashali said he saw a man shot in the head. "We are unable to get out. The place is closed," he said.

Health officials said one protester was killed and 14 others were injured by bullets and brought to the hospital in civilian cars because ambulances couldn't navigate the heavy fire.

Separately, Hamas gunmen opened fire from a high-rise building at about 1,000 protesters in Khan Younis, injuring one and breaking up the protest.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 03:02 PM

Explosion kills lawmaker in Beirut

By BASSEM MROUE, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 59 minutes ago



BEIRUT, Lebanon - An explosion rocked Beirut's popular sea-front area Wednesday, killing at least 10 people, including a vocal, anti-Syrian lawmaker who was close to slain former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri, security officials said.

The explosion, apparently from a bomb-rigged car, killed Walid Eido, his son and two bodyguards, the officials said on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to the media. Six others were also killed and at least 11 were wounded, the officials said.

Eido, 65, was an ally of Saad Hariri, the leader of the parliamentary majority and son of Rafik Hariri, who was assassinated on Feb. 14, 2005, in a suicide truck bombing in Beirut. Eido is the seventh opponent of Damascus to be killed in two years in this conflict-ridden country.

The explosion occurred less than a mile from the site of blast that killed Rafik Hariri and 22 others.

A car was in flames and black smoke was seen rising from a narrow street off the main waterfront in Manara, which is in the Muslim sector of the capital. The Lebanese Broadcasting Corp. TV station said the explosion came from a bomb-rigged car, a method that has been used to assassinate opponents of       Syria in the past.

Two bodies covered with plastic bags lay in a smoldering car. The explosion shattered apartment windows, knocked down walls and scattered debris on top of parked cars in the area, which is near an amusement park, a military club and popular beaches.

The       U.N. Security Council has ordered the creation of a tribunal to prosecute those responsible for Hariri's assassination, despite virulent opposition from Syrian-backed groups in Lebanon.

Hariri's killing sparked huge protests against Syria, which was widely seen as culpable. Syria denied involvement but was forced to withdraw its troops from Lebanon, ending a 29-year presence.

The issue of the tribunal has sharply polarized the country. It is at the core of a deep political crisis between the U.S.-backed government led by Prime Minister Fuad Saniora and the Syrian-backed opposition led by Hezbollah. The tensions have taken a more sectarian tone in recent months, with 11 people killed in clashes.

In Washington, a spokesman for       President Bush's National Security Council said the U.S. "deplores this latest attack in Beirut" that killed Eido and his son.

"We stand with the people of Lebanon and Prime Minister Saniora's government as they battle extremists who are trying to derail Lebanon's march to peace, prosperity and a lasting democracy," Gordon Johndroe said.

Eido, who was known to frequent Manara in the afternoon to play cards with friends, was a vocal opponent of recent Hezbollah-led protests and sit-ins outside Saniora's office aimed at forcing him to step down. He has called the encampment in downtown Beirut an "occupation."

Eido also was among the 70 legislators from the pro-Western majority that petitioned the       United Nations along with the government to impose the Hariri tribunal.

Six other explosions have hit Beirut and its suburbs in the past three weeks, killing at least two people, as Lebanese troops battle Islamic militants in a Palestinian refugee camp in the northern part of the country.

The Lebanese army clashed with       Fatah Islam militants in the Nahr el-Bared camp again Wednesday, and confirmed that a soldier had been killed the day before, bringing the number of troops killed since the fighting began to 61.

At least 60 Fatah Islam militants and 20 civilians have also died.

The New York-based Human Rights Watch criticized the military Wednesday for allegedly detaining and physically assaulting some Palestinian men fleeing the fighting at the besieged camp.

Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director of Human Rights Watch, said that while the Lebanese troops may question Palestinians leaving Nahr el-Bared about the Fatah Islam militants, "resorting to physical abuse is clearly against Lebanese law and international human rights standards."

Lebanese officials and the military did not immediately comment the allegations.

Most of the camp's 31,000 residents have fled since the violence broke out on May 20. But the International Committee of the Red Cross said that between 3,000 and 6,000 civilians remain behind.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 03:07 PM

'Also in recent days: Fatah and Hamas supporters have been tossed to their deaths from high-rise buildings; three family members were fatally shot -- one at close range -- while receiving treatment in a Beit Hanoun hospital; and Palestinian militants have been accused of disguising themselves as journalists to launch attacks.

Such instances prompted Human Rights Watch to issue a statement Wednesday accusing militants of "serious violations of international humanitarian law, in some cases amounting to war crimes."'

Gee. It must have hurt them terribly--HGuman Rights Watch--to suggest that Palestinians might be guilty of that. Usually it's the Israelis they mention. And what has Amnesty had to say? And where the f#ck are Al and Ifor?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 03:11 PM

"Israel has not escaped the violence either, with Palestinian militants launching rockets early Wednesday into the country; one slammed into an Israeli primary school but caused no casualties, according to an Israeli military source."

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:54 PM

"And where the f#ck are Al and Ifor?"

I'll answer my own question: There are no Jews to bash, so they are gone from the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 01:27 PM

Hamas overruns rival Fatah's key posts

By DIAA HADID, Associated Press Writer
5 minutes ago



GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Hamas fighters overran two of the rival       Fatah movement's most important security command centers in the       Gaza Strip on Thursday, and witnesses said the victors dragged vanquished gunmen into the street and shot them to death execution-style.

Hamas also seized control of Rafah in the south, Gaza's third-largest city, according to witnesses and security officials. It was the second main Gaza city to fall to the militants, who captured nearby Khan Younis on Wednesday.

Hamas captured the Preventive Security headquarters and the intelligence services building n Gaza City, major advances in the Islamic group's attempts to take over Gaza.

After the rout at the security headquarters, some of the Hamas fighters kneeled outside, touching their foreheads to the ground in prayer. Others led Fatah gunmen out of the building, some shirtless or in their underwear, holding their arms in the air. Several of the Fatah men flinched as the crack of gunfire split the air.

A witness, who identified himself only as Amjad, said men were killed as their wives and children watched.

"They are executing them one by one," said Amjad, who lives in a building that overlooks the Preventive Security complex. "They are carrying one of them on their shoulders, putting him on a sand dune, turning him around and shooting," he said by telephone.

The killers ignored appeals from residents to spare the men's lives, said Amjad, who declined to give his full name, fearing reprisal.

Preventive Security is an especially despised target of Hamas because the agency carried out bloody crackdowns against the Islamic group in the 1990s.

Fatah officials said Hamas shot and killed seven of its fighters outside the Preventive Security building. A doctor at Shifa Hospital said he examined two bodies that had been shot in the head at close range. The officials and the doctor spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisals.

Militants and civilians looted the compound, hauling out computers, documents, office equipment, furniture and TVs.

The moderate President Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah, for the first time in five days of fierce fighting, ordered his elite presidential guard to strike back. But his forces were crumbling fast under the onslaught by the better-armed and better-disciplined Islamic fighters.

In all, 14 fighters and civilians were killed and 80 wounded in the battle for the Preventive Security complex, bringing the day's death toll to 25, hospital and security officials said. About 90 people, mostly fighters but also women and children, have been killed since a spike in violence Sunday sent Gaza into civil war.

The two factions have warred sporadically since Hamas took power from Fatah last year, but never with such intensity. Hamas reluctantly brought Fatah into the coalition in March to quell an earlier round of violence, but the uneasy partnership began crumbling last month over control of the powerful security forces.

Hamas had been tightening its grip on the Preventive Security complex for three days, stepping up its assault late Wednesday with a barrage of bullets, grenades, mortar rounds and land mines that continued until the compound fell. Electricity and telephone lines were cut, and roads leading to the complex were blocked. Hamas claimed it confiscated two cars filled with arms.

The       Palestine Liberation Organization's top body recommended that Abbas declare a state of emergency and dismantle Fatah's governing coalition with Hamas. Abbas said he would review the recommendations and decide later Thursday, said an aide, Nabil Amr.

"We are telling our people that the past era has ended and will not return," Islam Shahawan, a spokesman for Hamas' militia, told Hamas radio. "The era of justice and Islamic rule have arrived."

Sami Abu Zuhri, a Hamas spokesman, heralded what he called "Gaza's second liberation," after       Israel's 2005 evacuation of the coastal strip.

Israel was watching the carnage closely, concerned the clashes might spawn attacks on its southern border. Defense Minister Amir Peretz told a weekly meeting of security officials that Israel would not allow the violence to spread to attacks on southern Israel, meeting participants said.

White House press secretary Tony Snow called the situation "a source of profound concern" that is being monitored by Washington. He said Hamas has expanded its "acts of terror" to target the Palestinian people themselves.

"We are keeping a very close watch," he said. "It's certainly not a situation we like."

The       European Union said it suspended humanitarian aid projects in Gaza, citing the escalating violence there.

The head of the Arab League, Amr Moussa, warned of a "disastrous outcome" if the bloody infighting continues and called for an immediate cease-fire.

Hamas, meanwhile, had its sights on two other key command centers in Gaza City.

In a broadcast on Hamas radio, the Islamic fighters demanded that Fatah surrender the National Security compound by midafternoon. Light clashes were under way there when the ultimatum was delivered.

RPGs were fired toward Abbas' Gaza compound, provoking return fire from his presidential guard. For the first time since the fighting began, Abbas ordered his guard to go on the offensive against Hamas at the compound, and not simply maintain a defensive posture, an aide said. He spoke on condition of anonymity because the situation was fluid.

Hamas fighters fired dozens of RPGs at the intelligence services building in Gaza City. When they captured it, Hamas television broadcast pictures of the fighters raising the group's green Islamic flag on the roof.

In Rafah, Hamas took over the Preventive Security building, according to witnesses and Col. Nasser Khaldi, a senior police official.

"I can see the Preventive Security building in front of me. Hamas has raised its green flags over it," said a civilian resident, who identified himself only as Raed. He said men carried away equipment from inside and the Fatah-allied security men ran away.

Near Rafah, Hamas officials said an Israeli tank shell struck a group of children from the same family riding in a car, and hospital workers said five were killed. The Israeli army denied its forces fired in the area.

Gaza hospitals were operating without water, electricity and blood.

Even holed up inside their homes, Gazans weren't able to escape the fighting. Moean Hammad, 34, said life had become a nightmare at his high-rise building near the Preventive Security headquarters, where Fatah forces on the rooftop were battling Hamas fighters.

"We spent our night in the hallway outside the apartment because the building came under crossfire," Hammad said. "We haven't had electricity for two days, and all we can hear is shooting and powerful, earthshaking explosions.

"The world is watching us dying and doing nothing to help. God help us, we feel like we are in a real-life horror movie," he said.

Fatah has threatened to carry the fighting to the       West Bank, where Hamas is weak. There have been sporadic battles in the West Bank this week, and on Thursday, Fatah went across the territory rounding up Hamas fighters in an effort to assert control.

The violence has exposed the depths of the disarray in Fatah's ranks since Hamas ended Fatah's 40-year dominion of Palestinian politics last year.

Fatah has asked Israeli permission to bring in more arms and armored vehicles, but Tzahi Hanegbi, chairman of the Israeli parliament's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, told Army Radio that arming Fatah would be "insane" because the weapons would fall into Hamas hands.

He said Israel was considering backing Fatah forces in the West Bank, but did not elaborate.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 02:41 PM

The claim by several of the above that to be for the Human ,Civil and Democratic rights of Palestinians is to be anti semitic is a disgusting one .Although it is typical of the Zionists on this thread and elsewhere.
As for Mossad threatening those who support a free Palestine ,well they would need a million operatives .
I also had to have a little laugh about the reference to the apaches made by one of the zionists in one of the recent postings.
Having almost wiped out the apaches the US locked up Geronimo for years and years...Geronimos Cadillac by Michael Murphy tells the story in song ...but what is amazing having almost wiped them out an attack helicopter is named the apaches.
My take on the Hamas -Fatah conflict is this...
Fatah was a basically secular organisation which after years of resistance was unable to gain anything meaningful from Israel.
It is being pushed to one side although is getting some help from the US and indeed Israel which has been asked to allow the transport of arms and fighters through checkpoints.
Hamas has become popular not because of its religious fundamentalism but because it is still prepared to resist the Israeli occupation and threat.
It seems to me that without a just settlement the conflict will go on for years with the suffering of the Palestinians intensifying and Israel becoming an ever uglier and more brutal society.
There is still a need for a Free Palestine , justice for the refugees
and an end to the siege of Gaza.
ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 03:49 PM

"an ever uglier and more brutal society"


Hamas fighters overran two of the rival       Fatah movement's most important security command centers in the       Gaza Strip on Thursday, and witnesses said the victors dragged vanquished gunmen into the street and shot them to death execution-style.
....
A witness, who identified himself only as Amjad, said men were killed as their wives and children watched.

"They are executing them one by one," said Amjad, who lives in a building that overlooks the Preventive Security complex. "They are carrying one of them on their shoulders, putting him on a sand dune, turning him around and shooting," he said by telephone.

The killers ignored appeals from residents to spare the men's lives, said Amjad, who declined to give his full name, fearing reprisal.

....

Among those killed Wednesday was a man who joined a nonviolent protest of the fighting in Gaza City. Also shot dead were two women from the Fatah-allied Bakr clan whose members had surrendered to Hamas. According to a clan member, the women tried to leave the area after the surrender to take a sick girl to a hospital and were shot on the street by jittery Hamas gunmen.

....

Separately, Hamas gunmen attacked the home of a senior Fatah security official with mortars and grenades, killing his 14-year-old son and three women inside, security officials said. Other Fatah gunmen stormed the house of a Hamas lawmaker and burned it down.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 03:53 PM

"The claim by several of the above that to be for the Human ,Civil and Democratic rights of Palestinians is to be anti semitic is a disgusting one Although it is typical of the Zionists on this thread and elsewhere."

FALSE- NO-ONE but you has made that claim. So, YOU are now a Zionist????

I will claim that to be for the Human ,Civil and Democratic rights of ISRAELIS is what YOU seem to object the most to. The deaths of innocent PALESTINIANS seems fine with you as well, as long as they are being killed by those YOU support.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 03:58 PM

To predict another war in the Middle East is akin to predicting more traffic accidents in L.A. or more rain in London.

The conflict between Fatah and Hamas was similarly predictable. When you have divided authority in a very unstable region that is already suffering from past warfare, poverty, and disaster, you will inevitably have infighting between the competing groups represented by those divided authorities.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 05:20 PM

Abbas Dissolves Palestinian Government

AP - Thu, 14 Jun 2007 16:52:05 -0400 (EDT)
By SARAH EL DEEB

A beleaguered Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas declared a state of emergency and disbanded the Hamas-led unity government after the Islamic militant group vanquished its Fatah rivals and effectively took control of the Gaza Strip on Thursday.

Fearful that Hamas' momentum could spread to the West Bank, Fatah went on the offensive there, rounding up three dozen Hamas fighters.

It was a day of major victories for Hamas and its backers in Iran and Syria -- and of devastating setbacks for the Western-backed Fatah. In one particularly humiliating scene, masked Hamas fighters marched agents of the once-feared Preventive Security Service out of their headquarters, arms raised in the air, stripped to the waist and ducking at the sound of a gunshot.

Abbas, of Fatah, fired the Hamas prime minister and said he would install a new government, replacing the Hamas-Fatah coalition formed just three months ago. Abbas' decrees won't reverse the Hamas takeover of Gaza. Instead, his moves will enable Fatah to consolidate its control over the West Bank, likely paving the way for two separate Palestinian governments.

Because Fatah has recognized Israel's right to exist and signed on to past peace agreements, the international community's boycott of the Palestinian territories in the wake of Hamas' electoral successes may no longer apply to the West Bank -- just to Gaza. Some 2 million Palestinians live in the West Bank, while 1.4 million reside in Gaza.

Hamas' success has thrown into turmoil everything from Mideast peacemaking to Palestinian statehood to relations with Israel and the West.

"The era of justice and Islamic rule has arrived," Hamas spokesman Islam Shahawan said.

Fatah's old demons -- corruption, petty quarreling, lack of leadership -- led to its dismal performance. While disciplined Hamas systematically hoarded weapons, Fatah's Gaza leader, Mohammed Dahlan, preferred travel and West Bank politics to preparing for the inevitable showdown with the Islamic militants. Dahlan returned Thursday from Egypt, where he stayed several weeks after knee surgery. But instead of going to Gaza, he headed for Ramallah in the West Bank.

Many West Bank Palestinians, watching the fall of Gaza on their TV screens, pinned the blame on Abbas, whom they see as indecisive and detached. During Hamas's assaults in Gaza this week, no prominent Fatah leader was in the coastal strip to take command.

"Hamas has leadership, a goal, an ideology and funding," said Gaza analyst Talal Okal. "Fatah has neither leadership, nor a goal, a vision or money."

By capturing three of Gaza City's four main security compounds and the southern town of Rafah, Hamas all but secured its hegemony in Gaza, putting Islamic extremists in control there. The final target for Hamas is Abbas' Gaza City headquarters.

For first time since fighting erupted five days ago, Abbas issued an order to strike back at Hamas. But his words were too little, too late. The violence that has killed at least 90 people in the past five days, including 32 on Thursday alone, made the Hamas-Fatah unity government look like a farce anyway.

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said Abbas' decisions have "no value" on the ground.

Israeli Defense Minister Amir Peretz vowed not to let the takeover of Gaza spill over into violence against Israel. Some Israelis said only a Gaza invasion could curb Hamas' military power. But for now, the government seems more inclined to stay out, fearful of inviting more rocket attacks on southern Israel.

In Washington, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said the United States backs Abbas' move. Abbas informed Rice of his decision in a phone call earlier Thursday.

"President Abbas has exercised his lawful authority as president of the Palestinian Authority, as leader of the Palestinian people," Rice said. "We fully support him in his decision to try and end this crisis for the Palestinian people and to give them an opportunity ... to return to peace and a better future."

The European Commission, meanwhile, suspended tens of millions of dollars in humanitarian aid projects in the Gaza Strip because of the escalating violence, a day after the U.N. announced it would scale back its relief projects there.

This week's fighting has been the most intense since Hamas won parliamentary elections last year, setting the stage for a violent power struggle with Fatah. Hamas reluctantly brought Fatah into the coalition in March to quell an earlier round of violence, but the uneasy partnership began crumbling last month over control of the powerful security forces.

No battle was more indicative of Gaza's hatreds and passions than the one at Preventive Security, one of Fatah's four main security bases in the coastal strip. After Hamas fighters overran it in a hail of mortar and gunfire Thursday, they touched their heads to the ground in prayer and marched vanquished gunmen into the streets shirtless.

Preventive Security carried out a brutal crackdown on Hamas in 1996, and the militants never forgot it. Witnesses, Fatah officials and a doctor reported gangland-style executions of the defeated fighters Thursday.


Preventive Security carried out a brutal crackdown on Hamas in 1996, and the militants never forgot it. Witnesses, Fatah officials and a doctor reported gangland-style executions of the defeated fighters Thursday.

"There is a history to it, a vendetta and a settling of scores," said Palestinian lawmaker Hanan Ashrawi.

Fatah officials, speaking on condition of anonymity for fear of retribution, said Hamas shot dead seven Fatah fighters after they had surrendered. A doctor at Shifa Hospital said he examined two bodies that had been shot in the head at close range.

A witness named Amjad who lives in a high-rise building that overlooks the Preventive Security complex said men were killed in front of their wives and children.

"They are executing them one by one," Amjad said in a telephone interview, declining to give his full name for fear of reprisals. "They are carrying one of them on their shoulders, putting him on a sand dune, turning him around and shooting."

The killers, he said, ignored appeals from neighborhood residents to spare the men's lives.

Abu Zuhri, the Hamas spokesman, denied the reports of gangland-style killings. "Whoever was killed was killed in clashes," he said.

Hamas TV said the Preventive Security building would be turned into an Islamic college. It showed a room with wall-to-wall wiretapping equipment -- a testament to Fatah's collapsed control.

Hamas fighters later seized the Fatah-controlled intelligence services building, planting the Islamic group's green flag on the roof of the ship-shaped structure. And after nightfall, the group announced it had seized Fatah's last stronghold in Gaza, the National Security headquarters.

Hamas TV showed smoke billowing from the top two floors of the mortar-pocked, five-story intelligence building. Five masked gunmen posed inside for the TV camera, including one who raised two assault rifles in triumph.

Another gunman, wearing a Hamas headband around his helmet, stood in a pose of prayer, a hand to each side of his head, screaming "Allah is Great" at the top of his voice.

Spent bullets lay on the floor in one office, and a carton holding hand grenades stood in another area.

Outside the building, three masked gunmen prayed on the sidewalk, their weapons on the ground in front of them as they kneeled in prayer.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,ifor
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 05:37 PM

with regard to the allegation of anti semitism do refer to Peace in the above...13th june 4.54
huw

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 07:30 PM

"There are no Jews to bash, so they are gone from the thread. "

"The claim by several of the above that to be for the Human ,Civil and Democratic rights of Palestinians is to be anti semitic is a disgusting one "

I do not see that any claim of anti-semitism is being lodged for "to be for the Human ,Civil and Democratic rights of Palestinians".


I DO see that the bashing of Jews, by refusing to address the issues being discussed, or answering ANY questions about how the Israelis are acting in any manner WORSE than the Palestinians and other Arab Moslems have and are presently IS reason to claim you are being anti-semitis.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 07:31 PM

Do Jews in ARAB nations enjoy the same rights as Moslems in Israel?

Would you care to anwer that? Remember, it is ILLEGAL to be Jewish and reside, even as a non-citizen, in Jordan ( The PALESTINIAN Moslem Homeland) or Saudi Arabia. Let me know what you find out about the other Arab nations.


HOW MANY Jews are presently living in JORDAN - the Palestinian Moslem Homeland)?

HOW many Moslems are living in Israel?


BTW, what about the GREATER number of Jews driven out of the Arab nations?

Or do you insist that Arab Jews are not supposed to have the "rights" that YOU have demanded for the Palestinian Arabs?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 05:41 AM

A little
light relief.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 10:00 AM

from the Washington Post:

A 'Two-State Solution,' Palestinian-Style

By Martin Indyk
Friday, June 15, 2007; Page A21

Does Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas know something that we don't? For five days his presidential security forces in Gaza came under organized attack by Hamas gunmen. His compound in Gaza City was under siege. But he responded to these clear challenges to his authority with observations about the madness that had infected Gaza and refused to assign blame.

One might expect that this democratically elected leader would denounce Hamas's coup and call for international intervention to restore his control. But there he sat in Ramallah, prevaricating as the only liberated part of his putative state fell into the hands of his Palestinian archenemies. Finally yesterday, he dismissed the Hamas-led government, but only after its takeover of Gaza was complete.

Critics will say that this is typical of Abbas, a weak leader who would rather appease his challengers than confront them. But perhaps Abbas understands the emerging realities better than they do.

Over the past year when Hamas would stage attacks in Gaza, Fatah forces would retaliate in the West Bank, where they were stronger. When fighting began this time, Fatah did little in the West Bank to counter Hamas's onslaught. Abbas's passivity further confirms that the fix was in. Abbas and Fatah have in effect conceded Gaza to Hamas while they hold on to the West Bank. Hamastan and Fatahstine: a "two-state solution" -- just not the one that George W. Bush had in mind.

Of course, all Palestinian leaders will continue to declare the indivisibility of the Palestinian homeland. But in private, Abbas and other Fatah leaders may take solace from the dilemma Hamas will now have to confront.

The failed state of Gaza that Hamas controls is wedged between Egypt and Israel. Its water, electricity and basic goods are imported from the Jewish state, whose destruction Hamas has declared as its fundamental objective. One more Qassam rocket fired from Gaza into an Israeli village and Israel could threaten to seal the border if Hamas did not stop its attacks. Hamas would then have to reach a meaningful cease-fire with Israel or seek Egypt's help meeting the basic needs of the 1.5 million Gazans. Hosni Mubarak's regime turned a blind eye to the importation of weapons and money that helped ensure Hamas's takeover. But would Egypt allow on its border a failed terrorist state run by an affiliate of the Muslim Brotherhood with links to Iran and Hezbollah? Or will it insist on the maintenance of certain standards of order in return for its cooperation?

Whatever transpires, Gaza has become Hamas's problem. It's a safe bet that the real attitude of Abbas and Fatah is: Let Hamas try to rule Gaza, and good luck.

This turn of events would free Abbas to focus on the much more manageable West Bank, where he can depend on the Israel Defense Forces to suppress challenges from Hamas, and on Jordan and the United States to help rebuild his security forces. As chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization and president of the Palestinian Authority, Abbas is empowered to negotiate with Israel over the disposition of the West Bank. Once he controls the territory, he could make a peace deal with Israel that establishes a Palestinian state with provisional borders in the West Bank and the Arab suburbs of East Jerusalem.

Meanwhile, Palestinians in Gaza could compare their fate under Hamas's rule with the fate of their West Bank cousins under Abbas -- which might then force Hamas to come to terms with Israel, making it eventually possible to reunite Gaza and the West Bank as one political entity living in peace with the Jewish state. It's hard to believe that such a benign outcome could emerge from the growing Palestinian civil war. But given current events, this course is likely to become Abbas's best option.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has an interest in this outcome, too. Elected on a mandate to leave the West Bank, Olmert was gravely weakened by the Lebanon war last summer. His best hope for political salvation lies in movement on the peace process. With Ehud Barak's election as Labor Party leader, Olmert now has a partner with security credentials who can lend him credibility and who may also want to prevent the West Bank from going Gaza's way.

For the Bush administration, the outcome in Gaza is an embarrassment. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has committed her last 18 months in office to resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. A failed terrorist state in Gaza is hardly what she had in mind for a legacy. Some will argue that it's time she talked to Hamas. But its thuggish, extraconstitutional behavior in Gaza and its commitment to the destruction of Israel make it an unlikely partner, at least until governing Gaza forces it to act more responsibly. And that leaves a "West Bank first" policy as Rice's best option, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 01:22 PM

Sporadic Violence Persists in Gaza

AP - Fri, 15 Jun 2007 12:05:50 -0400 (EDT)
By DIAA HADID

On Hamas' first day of full rule in Gaza, crowds looted strongholds of the rival Fatah on Friday -- stripping the home of one of the party's strongmen down to the flower pots -- and militants sent a man plunging to his death from a rooftop.

But the violence was sporadic and Gaza's streets, deserted in the past week of fighting, were crowded with cars, pedestrians and triumphant fighters with the Islamic militant group.

At Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' captured seaside office in Gaza City, a gunman sat down at the Fatah leader's desk, picked up the phone and pretended to be calling Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. "Hello, Rice?" the gunman said. "Here we are in Abu Mazen's office. Say hello to Abu Mazen for me." Other gunmen rifled through Abbas' belongings in a bedroom behind the office, lifting up a mattress and searching through drawers.

Hamas' military takeover of Gaza, after five days of battle, formalized the separation between Gaza and the West Bank, which lie on either side of Israel. The moderate government Abbas plans to appoint will have no say in Gaza, but stands a stronger chance than the Hamas-Fatah coalition it replaces of restoring foreign aid to the West Bank.

A resident of a Hamas-dominated neighborhood, identifying himself only as Yousef for fear of reprisal by his neighbors, said Gazans would always back the winner, regardless of ideology.

"Today everybody is with Hamas because Hamas won the battle. If Fatah had won the battle they'd be with Fatah. We are a hungry people, we are with whoever gives us a bag of flour and a food coupon," said Yousef, 30. "Me, I'm with God and a bag of flour."

Palestinians in the West Bank viewed the Hamas takeover of Gaza with a mixture of fear and hope -- realizing that it could bring needed foreign aid while dealing a major blow to dreams of Palestinian statehood.

Ahmed al-Aziz, a 53-year-old merchant in Ramallah, said the fenced-in Gazans have little to lose. "Everybody here is worried about his interests or his business. In Gaza, people are poor. They don't have work," he said.

Fleeing aboard a fishing boat on the Mediterranean, 97 senior members of Fatah's security and administrative apparatus arrived in Egypt hours after Hamas fighters took control of Gaza, an Egyptian security official in the port city of El-Arish said. Israel's Channel Two TV said Israel was briefly opening the Erez crossing into Israel to enable other Fatah leaders to escape.


Gazans awoke to the new reality of Hamas control, fraught with uncertainty and fear that they'll become even poorer and more isolated. Gaza's crossings with Egypt and Israel -- lifelines for the fenced-in territory -- have been closed this week, and it was not clear if they would reopen. Extended closure could quickly lead to a humanitarian crisis.

Because Fatah recognizes Israel and past peace agreements, a boycott of the Palestinian government imposed by Israel and the international community after Hamas' electoral successes may no longer apply to the West Bank -- only Gaza.

A Hamas spokesman said Palestinian police, now under Hamas command, would take up positions at the crossings, but it's unlikely Israel would agree: Hamas militants frequently attacked the passages in the past.

The house of former Gaza strongman Mohammed Dahlan, a longtime nemesis of Hamas, was overrun, and looters stripped it of everything from windows and doors to flowerpots. "This was the house of the murderer Dahlan that was cleansed by the holy warriors," read graffiti sprayed on the wall. Donkey carts outside the house waited to take on more loot.

More than 90 people were killed in five days of fighting, and dozens wounded.

The morgue at Gaza City's main Shifa Hospital was overflowing, with bodies lined up on the floor; some of the wounded were sleeping on cardboard on the floor.

Earlier Friday, Hamas announced it had arrested 10 of the most senior Fatah leaders in the strip, including the commanders of Abbas' own elite guard unit and the chief of the National Security force, but it later declared an amnesty for all Fatah leaders, and several were released.

Two revenge killings were reported.

Hamas said a Fatah man was thrown off a rooftop, to his death, in a family revenge slaying. In southern Gaza, a Fatah fighter was shot and killed by Hamas gunmen.

In all, about a dozen Fatah fighters were executed, gang-land style, since Gaza fell to Hamas late Thursday, according to people with ties to Fatah. Among those killed was Samih Madhoun, a leader of a feared militia, whose bullet-riddled body was found Thursday evening. Madhoun was captured by Hamas at a roadblock, and Hamas posted a photo of the blood-covered corpse, sprawled on the ground, on its Web site.

Still, Hamas also sent conciliatory signals. Abu Obeideh called for the immediate release of Alan Johnston, the BBC journalist who was kidnapped in March and is believed held by a powerful Gaza clan whose members had ties to both Hamas and Fatah. "We will not allow for his continued detention," Abu Obeideh said of Johnston.

The battle for Gaza ended Thursday night when Hamas forces took the last Fatah stronghold, the seaside office complex of Abbas. The Fatah forces had collapsed quickly under Hamas' systematic onslaught. One by one, Hamas seized Fatah facilities and marched Fatah fighters down the street shirtless and with hands raised.

Fearful that Hamas' momentum could spread to the West Bank, Fatah-allied forces there staged a show of force -- driving through central Ramallah in pickup trucks, their rifles raised. In Nablus, Fatah men shot dead a Hamas member early Friday, Hamas said.

The stage for the struggle between Fatah and Hamas was set last year, when Hamas won parliamentary elections. Hamas reluctantly brought Fatah into a coalition government in March to quell an earlier round of violence, but the uneasy partnership began crumbling last month over control of security forces.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 01:59 PM

You should get a job as an anchorman, BB. ;-) Call up CNN and see if they need one.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 05:08 PM

Anxious Arab states hold Gaza crisis talks

by Jailan Zayan
27 minutes ago



CAIRO (AFP) - Arab foreign ministers held crisis talks on the deadly dispute dividing the Palestinian territories on Friday amid dire warnings about the consequences of Hamas's seizure of the       Gaza Strip.

Ministers had been due to meet on Saturday at the request of Lebanon to discuss the latest killing of an anti-Syrian politician in that country.

But they brought their meeting forward after Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas dissolved a three-month-old power-sharing government on Thursday and the Islamists of Hamas seized control of the Gaza Strip, leaving Abbas and his       Fatah movement based in the occupied       West Bank.

Arab League ambassadors have appealed to both Hamas and Abbas's secular Fatah faction to return to Egyptian-sponsored reconciliation talks, warning that the failure of such talks could have "deeply negative consequences."

Before the meeting, league Secretary General Amr Mussa held talks with the head of the Palestinian delegation, Azzam al-Ahmed from Fatah, who was deputy prime minister in the sacked unity government.

Abbas on Friday tasked political independent Salam Fayyad with forming an emergency government but Hamas swiftly rejected the move as a "coup against legitimacy and a transgression of all laws".

Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Saud al-Faisal, whose country brokered a Palestinian unity government deal in the holy city of Mecca in February, said the infighting was "realising Israel's dream."

"Through their fighting, our Palestinian brothers have realised Israel's dream of setting alight the fire of discord and war between Palestinians," he told the meeting's opening session.

"Today, the Palestinians are banging in the last nail in the coffin of the Palestinian cause," he said, appealing for dialogue.

Egypt -- evidently wary about the creation of an Islamic-run entity on its doorstep -- condemned Hamas's "seizure of power" recalled all its diplomatic and security personnel from the Gaza Strip, diplomatic sources said.

General Mohammed Burhan, who headed a permanent security delegation based in the Gaza Strip and mediated numerous ceasefire agreements between Hamas and Fatah, told AFP that he had already left Gaza for Cairo.

Egypt had been trying to broker a face-to-face meeting between the two sides but the breakdown of that effort was swiftly followed by the latest bout of fighting in which at least 113 people have been killed in a week.

Analysts warned that an Islamic state in Gaza could prove problematic for Egypt, which is battling to contain a strong Islamic opposition at home.

By Friday, Hamas fighters had taken control of all remaining institutions loyal to Abbas in Gaza, leaving the Arab League's call looking a forlorn hope.

Egypt called on Hamas to accept Abbas's presidential authority after he declared a state of emergency and dissolved both parliament and the government on Thursday pending fresh elections.

Foreign Minister Ahmed Abul Gheit stressed the need to "respect legitimate Palestinian institutions, abide by a unified Palestinian decision, and respect the Palestinian National Authority... and its president Mahmud Abbas."

King Abdullah II of Jordan said he hoped the feuding sides would "engage in dialogue to come to an agreement to avert an explosive situation."

In a telephone call with Abbas on Thursday, he warned that the factional fighting "only serves the interests of the Palestinian enemies."

Arab newspapers have expressed concern that Hamas's seizure of Gaza would merely play into the hands of       Israel, giving it a pretext to spurn peace talks with the Palestinians and press ahead with settlement of the occupied West Bank.

An opinion piece in the pan-Arab daily Al-Hayat appealed to Hamas not to torpedo Palestinian national unity for the sake of power in tiny and impoverished Gaza.

"Hamas's options will from now on be limited to the huge prison camp that is Gaza," warned columnist Maher Ossman.

"It would be disgraceful if Hamas's ambitions were confined to a trivial mini-state which will most likely be ignored," he added, calling for "a common national platform that would give the Palestinians a united voice."

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 10:41 AM

INTERVIEW WITH FATAH'S INTELLIGENCE COORDINATOR (in DER SPIEGEL, engl. translation)

During the Gaza coup, some foreigners were present at the Hamas command center and directed and guided the war from there....
Hamas faces a serious problem: They have armed 100,000 fighters in Gaza and will not be able to keep them under control.

Too optimistic in my eyes regarding the time table, but still interesting reading.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 10:59 AM

Abbas attempts to isolate Hamas

POSTED: 10:50 a.m. EDT, June 18, 2007

Story Highlights• Abbas dissolves security council to isolate Hamas; gains U.S., EU, Israeli support
• Bush tells Abbas he's open to restarting peace talks
• Israel opens crossing for Gaza medical aid, reopens fuel gas shipments
• Hamas rejects new Abbas government as illegal and "just a mistake"

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- The emergency Palestinian government -- formed in the wake of Hamas' takeover of Gaza -- continued Monday to shore up political and economic support in an attempt to further isolate the previous Hamas-led leadership.

A day after swearing in a new cabinet, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas dissolved the national security council which had been formed under the previous Fatah-Hamas unity government, according to a Palestinian political source.

The council was responsible for deciding which parts of Gaza and the West Bank would be controlled by Fatah forces and Hamas forces. (Watch Hamas gunmen take control of presidential offices in Gaza )

Hamas leader Ismail Haniya, who had served as Palestinian prime minister until he was dismissed last Thursday by Abbas, held the position of deputy chairman of the council.

It is unclear if a new council will be formed in its place.

Political, economic support
Meanwhile, the European Union announced Monday that it will resume direct aid to the Palestinian government under newly-appointed Prime Minister Salam Fayyad.

"We cannot let down at this moment the Palestinian people who live in Gaza," EU Foreign Policy Chief Javier Solana said.

Europe is the largest single donor to the Palestinian territories. Before Hamas won legislative elections last year, the EU provided over $600 million in aid -- about half of it directly funding the Palestinian Authority.

The EU and United States, which provided over $400 million to the PA, suspended aid to the Hamas-led Palestinian government because the Islamic fundamentalist group would not amend its charter which calls for the destruction of Israel.

Determining how the money will reach the people in Gaza where the government has no control still has to be worked out, Solana said.

"It is very important that he (Fayyad) is able to construct a budget and through that budget he will be able to help both the people in Gaza and the people in West Bank."

Bush, Abbas discuss peace talks
President Bush called Abbas on Monday and pledged his support to the president and "those Palestinian moderates who are working to better the lives of Palestinians and work towards a Palestinian state living side by side in peace with Israel," National Security Council spokesman Gordon Johndroe told CNN

Bush also told Abbas he was "open to the idea" of restarting Mideast peace talks to stabilize the situation and will do anything to "move the peace process forward," Johndroe said.

Bush told Abbas that before he makes any firm commitments, he wants to "raise all of those issues" with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert during their meeting on Tuesday and figure out the best way to proceed.

Shortly after his arrival in New York on Sunday, Olmert vowed to cooperate with Fayyad's government.

"We will defreeze monies that we kept under our control because we didn't want these monies to be taken by Hamas in order to be used as part of a terrorist action," said Olmert.

Growing humanitarian crisis
Following Hamas' take-over of Gaza last week, humanitarian groups have raised concerns about the further isolation of the Palestinian territory. Israel has closed most of the borders, and the the Rafah border crossing between Egypt and Gaza has been closed for over a week. (Interactive: Details about how the Palestinian power struggle unfolded)

Human rights groups have urged the Israeli government to reopen its border crossings with Gaza to allow food and medical relief supplies.

Israel agreed on Monday to temporarily open the Erez border crossing for a delivery of Red Cross medical supplies to Gaza, an Israel Defense Forces spokeswoman said.

In addition, Gaza residents will start receiving shipments of gasoline after the Israeli fuel company that is the sole supplier of gasoline for Gaza motorists announced Monday it will resume regular shipments.

Dor Alon said on Sunday that it would halt gasoline shipments in the wake of Hamas' take-over of Gaza, but would continue to supply gasoline to Gaza's electricity power plant.

It will resume shipments in coordination with all the "relevant factors," according to a news release.

A Fatah official in the West Bank said Monday that the new government will make it a top priority to make sure the people in Gaza get supplies.

"We will work to make sure that the basic services will flow as normal as possible," Tayib Abdel Rahim said at a news conference.

Hamas: new government 'just a mistake'

Hamas has rejected the new government formed by Abbas after declaring a state of emergency in the wake of the chaos in Gaza. Abbas chose all political independents for the cabinet.

Haniya's top adviser Ahmed Youssef told CNN's "Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer" that "there is nothing in the (Palestinian) constitution" that outlines an emergency government.

"There is a state of emergency but there is nothing called 'emergency government,'" Youssef said.

He said the move is "just a mistake" made by Abbas.

Abbas declared a state of emergency as Hamas fighters seized control of Gaza last week.

According to Abbas and his Fatah allies, the president has the power to dissolve the government and form a temporary cabinet after calling for a state of emergency. The Palestinian Legislative Council must convene to vote on the cabinet after a 30-day period.

While Hamas has gained control of Gaza, Fatah is trying to consolidate its power in the West Bank and extend it into Gaza.

Fatah official Saeb Erakat denied that there are two Palestinian governments, but made it clear that the newly appointed cabinet's first priority would be to prevent the spread of the "chaos and lawlessness" in Gaza.

"We will not allow ... the catastrophe that's happened in Gaza to reach the West Bank, that's number one," Erakat told CNN's "Late Edition."

Hamas may have backed itself into a corner in assuming sole power in Gaza which is entirely dependent on Israel and other outside resources for basic services.

Former U.S. envoy to the Middle East Dennis Ross points out that Hamas is in a situation "where basically they have nobody else to blame but themselves."

"There's nobody else to hold responsible in Gaza for governing," Ross told CNN's "American Morning."

"The Israelis aren't there, Fatah isn't there, it's only Hamas. So now Hamas actually has to govern, they can't just be on the outside and not assume responsibility."

"Can they really be firing off rockets into Israel if Israel is the source of electricity? Do they really want to put themselves in the position where basically they have nobody else to blame but themselves, and they're making the situation worse?"

Ross said that position could offer leverage to Fatah, although there is the possibility that Hamas may "chose to divert attention away from their failings by heating things up with Israel."

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 11:02 AM

Rockets fall on northern Israel

POSTED: 5:06 p.m. EDT, June 17, 2007

Story Highlights• Sources say a third rocket landed near U.N. post in Lebanon

• Hezbollah denies responsibility for attack
• Police: Rockets appear to have caused no casualties and only minor damage
• Attack marks first rockets to land in northern Israel since last summer

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- At least two Katyusha rockets fired from Lebanon landed near the northern Israeli town of Kiryat Shmona on Sunday, police and Israel Defense Forces said.

Lebanese security sources later reported that another rocket fired from Lebanon never made it across the Israeli border and landed near an observation post operated by the U.N. Interim Force in Lebanon.

A representative from the U.N. force called the attack a "serious violation of Security Council Resolution 1701 and of the cessation of the hostility agreement" that followed last year's war between Israel and Hezbollah militants.

"An investigation is under way," the representative said, asking all parties to "exercise maximum restraint."

All three missiles were launched using timing devices, and a fourth rocket failed to fire and is being dismantled by the Lebanese army, the sources said. (Watch the aftermath of the rocket attacks )

Hezbollah quickly denied responsibility for the attack, Lebanese security sources said.

A Lebanese security source told the Israeli newspaper, Haaretz, that suspected Palestinian gunmen carried out the attack.

There were no reports of casualties, police said. Only minor damage was reported.

Video from Israeli television showed a damaged car on the side of a road, it's front bumper crushed and windshield cracked.

The launch sites were in the eastern portion of southern Lebanon, near the town of Marjayoun, which is controlled by Lebanese forces who are monitoring the border after last summer's war between Israel and Hezbollah.

The rockets were the first to land in northern Israel since Kiryat Shmona was pounded by hundreds of Katyusha rockets during the 34-day war.

According to media reports, Kiryat Shmona Mayor Haim Barbivai told Israel's Channel 2 that he wanted to see a strong response from Israel and the Lebanese government.

"Heaven help us if we have another summer like the last one. That would be a tragedy," Barbivai told the television station.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 12:42 PM

For more fast-breaking news, check out the "War in Europe" thread...

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 12:52 PM

Exact title: What started the war in Europe

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 01:52 PM

Sanctions taken off Abbas-led government By ANNE GEARAN, AP Diplomatic Writer
11 minutes ago



WASHINGTON - The Bush administration on Monday lifted its economic and political embargo against the Palestinian government, Secretary of State       Condoleezza Rice announced.

The move follows the expulsion of the militant Hamas movement from the       Palestinian Authority, and is meant to strengthen Western-backed President Mahmoud Abbas by resuming direct U.S. aid.

Rice said she had informed new Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad of the decision in phone call earlier Monday.

"I told him the United States would resume full assistance to the Palestinian government and normal government to government contacts," she told reporters at the State Department.

This is a breaking news update. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

WASHINGTON (AP) —       President Bush on Monday pledged help and support to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, as the United States prepared to lift economic and diplomatic sanctions against his new-look government.

In a 15-minute phone conversation, Abbas told Bush about the steps he has taken, including swearing in an emergency Cabinet and outlawing the militia forces of Hamas. Bush noted that he plans to meet Tuesday with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, and that he would share their thoughts on how to continue, White House press secretary Tony Snow said.

The Bush administration is poised to lift the sanctions and a diplomatic embargo against the new Palestinian government in the       West Bank since it no longer includes the Islamic militant group Hamas.

"What's important is, you have to have a partner who is committed to peace, and we believe that President Abbas is," Snow said. "And therefore we are committed to working with this new emergency government."

Hamas' violent takeover of the       Gaza Strip last week split the Palestinian government in two: the Hamas leadership headed by deposed Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh in Gaza and the new Cabinet now led by the Western-backed economist Salam Fayyad in the West Bank.

"We have said that Hamas is a terrorist organization," Snow said. "I think it's pretty clear what our stance has been."

Hamas seized control of Gaza last week after a series of battles with Abbas'       Fatah movement. The violence left Gaza increasingly isolated, a situation that worsened Sunday when an Israeli fuel company cut off deliveries to gas stations in the impoverished coastal strip.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is expected to announce the new U.S. policy as soon as Monday, a U.S. official said. That announcement will coincide with a visit by Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, who is holding talks in Washington beginning Monday.

The State Department would not confirm the expected move ahead of Rice's announcement, but dropped strong hints Monday. The administration hopes that a resumption of aid would bolster Abbas and improve chances that he can negotiate toward peace with       Israel.

State Department spokesman Sean McCormack noted that the new emergency government in the West bank is made up of moderates who have previously pledged or demonstrated their commitment to nonviolence and peace with Israel.

"We're taking a look at, in a way, how we can return back to the future," McCormack said. "We have a Palestinian government now that is committed to those principles that previous Palestinian governments had been committed to," before Hamas took power last year.

Jacob Walles, the U.S. consul-general in Jerusalem, said Saturday that the international aid embargo imposed after Hamas won parliamentary elections last year will no longer apply to Abbas' government, and said he expected the aid ban to be lifted this week.

A senior U.S. official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to describe internal discussions, said that any U.S. gestures toward Abbas will be made independently of Israel.

The move essentially would reset U.S. policy to the days before Hamas swept legislative elections in early 2006 and upended U.S. and international peacemaking. The United States, Israel and the       European Union regard Hamas as a terrorist organization.

Since those elections, Hamas has continued to flex its muscles.

Meanwhile, in a major boost to Abbas, European Union foreign policy chief Javier Solana announced in Luxembourg on Monday that the 27-nation bloc would resume direct financial aid to the Palestinian Authority now that Hamas is no longer part of the government.

"We absolutely have to back" the new government in the West Bank, said Luxembourg Foreign Minister Jean Asselborn. "The question of today is: How can we help the 1.4 million people in Gaza?"

Hamas, which does not recognize Israel's right to exist, now runs Gaza. Abbas and his secular Fatah Party now run the West Bank. The larger West Bank is home to more than 1.5 million Palestinians.

The split cleared the way for the U.S. to resume direct aid payments to the Palestinian government, something it has refused to do so long as Hamas was a part of the government and could benefit from U.S. dollars.

Some in the United States and in Europe have advocated a policy dubbed "West Bank first" in which the West Bank would stand as an example of what a future Palestinian state could be. Critics on the other side say that leaves Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip without assistance. Europeans oppose this idea, and still others worry it would leave the Gaza Strip open to funding and influence from       Iran and       Syria.

Five years ago, Bush called for a separate, independent Palestine alongside Israel. He was the first U.S. president to back that notion so fully and publicly. But his administration has taken heavy criticism for letting the peace process drift while conditions worsened for the impoverished Palestinians.

In New York on Sunday, Olmert said his country would be a "genuine partner" of a new Palestinian government and promised to consider releasing the hundreds of millions of dollars in frozen tax funds.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jun 07 - 10:18 AM

Two dead in fresh Lebanon fighting

POSTED: 8:54 a.m. EDT, June 19, 2007

Story Highlights• Lebanese army continues offensive against militants in Nahr el-Bared camp
• One soldier killed in gun battles with Fatah Islam fighters; another by sniper fire
• Army has made steady gains against Islamists since clashes started on May 20

BEIRUT, Lebanon (AP) -- Lebanon's army battled al Qaeda-inspired fighters in a Palestinian refugee camp in northern Lebanon on Tuesday as the troops inched toward the militants' strongholds. Officials said two soldiers were killed in the fighting.

Reporters outside the Nahr el-Bared camp on the outskirts of the northern port city of Tripoli said a barrage of six shells at a time were heard as the army pounded the camp. Black and white plumes of smoke were seen rising from inside the camp.

A military official, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to make statements to media, said a soldier was killed in battles earlier in the morning with gunmen of the Fatah Islam group barricaded inside Nahr el-Bared.

A security official, also requesting anonymity for the same reason, said another soldier was killed shortly before midday by sniper fire.

Tuesday's death brought the army's fatalities to 74 since fighting first erupted at Nahr el-Bared on May 20, when police raiding suspects in a bank robbery clashed with Fatah Islam in a Tripoli neighborhood.

Fatah Islam -- a group of Islamic militants from various Arab nationalities that built its power structure in the camp in recent months -- subsequently burst out of Nahr el-Bared, attacked Lebanese army positions and ambushed soldiers, killing 27 in attacks that drew condemnation from Lebanese and Palestinians alike.

At least 60 militants were killed in the early days of the fighting, with officials saying many more died later on. The militants have given a much lower death toll, but contact with them recently has not been possible. At least 20 civilians were reported killed.

The army has made steady gains on the ground in recent days. On occasion, it leveled top floors of buildings to root out militant snipers, and engaged in door-to-door combat to try break the stubborn resistance of the militants who operate from behind fortified positions and target the military with rockets and booby traps.

Palestinian Islamic clerics have attempted to mediate an end to the fighting but their efforts came up against the militants' pledge to fight to the death rather than comply by the army's request that they surrender.

The battle to drive the Islamic militants out has led to significant damage to parts of the camp, once home to some 30,000 Palestinian refugees. Only about 5,000 remain inside, after most residents fled to the nearby Beddawi refugee camp.

From the outside, the destruction to camp buildings can be clearly seen on the skyline. With the military advancing in recent days, the militants have been retreating deeper inside Nahr el-Bared's narrow streets and residential neighborhoods, hounded by army artillery.

There has been little information from inside the camp since the early days of the fighting. Nahr el-Bared has been off limits to journalists.

An amateur video obtained by Associated Press Television News on Tuesday showed major destruction in largely deserted residential neighborhoods.

Debris from collapsed walls and balconies littered the narrow alleys, covered with ripped electricity wires. Shells and shrapnel holes peppered some buildings. A burnt car and a parked pickup truck with a collapsed wall resting on lay on one deserted street.

Shells had struck a school and a mosque, and the backyard of a house was covered with fallen blocks. On another, steel-reinforced pillars lay twisted.

The video, taken at different periods between May 27 and June 10, showed very few residents. Six men were seen gathering around a hose to fill up cans with water. In one house, a family was sitting on the floor for a meal.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Jun 07 - 05:12 PM

Lebanese troops bombard Palestinian camp

By HUSSEIN DAKROUB, Associated Press Writer
Wed Jun 20, 1:24 PM ET



BEIRUT, Lebanon - Lebanese troops bombed Islamic militants holed up in a Palestinian refugee camp Wednesday, as mediators met senior military officials to discuss a possible cease-fire deal that would disarm the al-Qaida-inspired fighters.

The army unleashed artillery and tank barrages at suspected hideouts of Fatah Islam militants barricaded inside the Nahr el-Bared camp on the outskirts of the port city of Tripoli. Plumes of black and white smoke rose from inside the camp, and heavy gunfire rang out.

The monthlong fighting in Nahr el-Bared, the worst internal violence since the 1975-90 civil war, comes amid a fierce power struggle between Lebanon's Western-backed government and the opposition led by the militant Hezbollah group.

On Wednesday, Arab League Amr Moussa warned "time is running out" to resolve the political impasse that has paralyzed Lebanon for months.

Even as military tried to crush Fatah Islam's remaining strongholds at the refugee camp, Palestinian mediators held talks with Lebanese military intelligence chief Brig. George Khoury at the Defense Ministry near Beirut.

A Palestinian Muslim cleric, Sheik Mohammed Haj, said after meeting with Khoury that he hoped for "a positive response" to the cease-fire proposed by mediators.

Sheik Mohammed and the Palestinian Scholars Association met earlier this week with Fatah Islam leaders in the camp and said the militants had agreed to the deal.

"Brig. Khoury promised to take what has been reached (with Fatah Islam) to the army command and to respond to it," the cleric told Hezbollah's Al-Manar television.

He refused to give details of the cease-fire deal. Earlier, the private New TV station said it included disarming Fatah Islam's dissolution, the return of refugees and takeover of the camp by other Palestinian factions.

However, a senior military official said the army would not accept any deal unless it includes the handover of Fatah Islam militants responsible for the deaths of Lebanese soldiers.

There will be "no bargaining over the blood of the (army) martyrs," the official told The Associated Press, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not allowed to make official statements. He added that the troops were making "steady advances" in assault on the Fatah Islam militants.

The official said three soldiers were killed in clashes Tuesday, bringing the army's death toll to 75 since fighting began May 20 when police seeking suspects in a bank robbery clashed with Fatah Islam in a Tripoli neighborhood.

At least 60 militants and 20 civilians were killed in the early days of fighting. Officials say many more militants have died since, but contact with the fighters to verify figures has not been possible. The militants had earlier given a much lower death toll.

Moussa, the Arab League chief, was on a three-day visit to help end the standoff between the and the Western-backed government and the pro-Syria opposition.

Opposition supporters have held a sit-in outside Prime Minister Fuad Saniora's office since December, demanding his resignation and a national unity government in which they would have veto power. Saniora, backed by the United States, has refused to step down.

In another looming crisis, the legislature must vote on a replacement when pro-Syrian President Emile Lahoud's term ends in November, but it is highly unlikely that lawmakers will be able to agree on a candidate.

Moussa said Lebanon's problems must all be addressed at once.

"It is possible to agree on all these matters at the same time. Time is running out on Lebanon," he told reporters after talks with Lahoud. "Setting priorities could have been possible had we had a year or more ahead of us but now there is only three to four months."

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 07:17 AM

Mideast peace summit to take place Mon. 4 minutes ago



JERUSALEM - Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert will meet on Monday with Palestinian, Egyptian and Jordanian leaders in the Red Sea resort of Sharm el-Sheikh, an Israeli government spokeswoman said Thursday.

Olmert, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak and King Abdullah II of Jordan will "address ways to promote the moderate agenda and ways to go forward on the Israeli-Palestinian issues," spokeswoman Miri Eisin said.

This is a breaking news update. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP) — Closing ranks against Hamas, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak has invited the Israeli, Palestinian and Jordanian leaders to a peace summit next week, Palestinian officials said Thursday.

The regional gathering is the biggest show of support yet by moderate Arab states for beleaguered Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in his bitter showdown with the Islamic militants, who took control of Gaza by force last week.

Mubarak has invited Abbas, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Jordan's King Abdullah to the summit, to be held early next week in Egypt, said Abbas aides Saeb Erekat and Yasser Abed Rabbo. Israeli government spokeswoman Miri Eisin said nothing has been finalized.

At the meeting, Abbas will call for a resumption of peace talks with Israel, arguing that only progress toward Palestinian statehood can serve as a true buffer against Hamas, Erekat said.

"The most important thing to realize is that time is of the essence," Erekat said. "We need to deliver the end of occupation, a Palestinian state. If we don't have hope, Hamas will export despair to the people."

As immediate steps, Abbas will ask Israel to remove West Bank checkpoints that disrupt daily life and trade, and to transfer hundreds of millions of dollars in Palestinian tax funds Israel froze after Hamas came to power last year.

In Washington this week, Olmert said he would propose to his Cabinet on Sunday that it unlock frozen funds, thought he did not say how much money he thought Israel should free. Israel is holding about $550 million in tax revenues it collects on behalf of the Palestinians.

Despite the talk about peace, however, the Hamas takeover has dealt a setback to statehood efforts, with the Islamic militants in charge of Gaza and Abbas in charge of the West Bank.

Gaza militants fired nine rockets at the Israeli town of Sderot on Wednesday, slightly injuring one person. Hours earlier, Israeli troops backed by tanks and armored vehicles fatally shot four militants.

Mahmoud Zahar, the man widely believed to be leading Gaza's new Hamas rulers, said Wednesday his group would be open to a cease-fire with Israel if the army halted its activities there and in the West Bank. He said Hamas was capable of halting the frequent rocket attacks out of Gaza. "But nobody will be the protector of the Israeli border," he told The Associated Press.

In the West Bank, meanwhile, a top Palestine Liberation Organization body, the Palestine National Council, was meeting for a second day Thursday. It was weighing Abbas' appeal to approve his most recent steps against Hamas, including firing the militants from the government and establishing an emergency Cabinet of moderates.

Technically, the Palestinian legislature would have to approve the emergency government after a month. However, it is controlled by Hamas and has been paralyzed for months, following Israel's arrest of most Hamas legislators.

In asking the PLO to grant the approval, Abbas was in fact sidestepping parliament. It was not immediately clear whether he'd now go to the Palestine National Council for any issue that normally would have required parliament approval, thus rendering the legislature useless.

In a televised speech to the PLO leaders on Wednesday evening, Abbas lashed out at Hamas, branding them "murderous terrorists" with whom he would have no dealings. It marked the first time since Hamas' takeover of Gaza that Abbas laid out his case before the Palestinian people.

Abbas described in detail what he said was a Hamas attempt to assassinate him. He said he obtained footage of Hamas members dragging large amounts of explosives through a tunnel they had dug under Gaza's main road — the one he takes to his office — and saying "this is for Abu Mazen," his nickname. He said he sent the tape to Hamas' supreme leader, Khaled Mashaal, and to Arab leaders to illustrate Hamas intentions.

He said Hamas was trying to build an "empire of darkness" in Gaza.

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri hotly rejected Abbas' statements. "What he said was disgusting and not appropriate for the Palestinian president," he said. "The president has harmed himself with his words."

At least 2,000 Hamas supporters took to the streets in Gaza City, denouncing Abbas as an agent of Israel and the United States. "Abbas, Abbas, the (Gaza) strip is all Hamas," the crowd chanted.

In the West Bank town of Ramallah, Hamas officials claimed that Palestinian security stormed the house of Hamas leader Hassan Yossef, questioned his sons for three hours and confiscated computer and documents. Yossef is in an Israeli jail.

In another development, 35 Gazans who had been stuck at the main Gaza-Israel passenger crossing for several days were sent to Egypt via Israel late Wednesday, an Israeli army spokeswoman said Thursday.

Among those who left were gunmen from Abbas' Fatah movement, their wives and children.

Seventy had been authorized to leave, but half decided to stay in Gaza after discovering they were to go to Egypt rather than the West Bank, the spokeswoman said.

Earlier Wednesday, Israel took in several of the sick and wounded in the crowd.

Hundreds of men, women and children rushed to the crossing after the Hamas takeover, among them Fatah loyalists who feared they'd be harmed by Hamas, despite the militants' offer of amnesty. By Thursday, the passage, rank with the stench of urine and garbage, was nearly empty after it became clear that a mass exit to the West Bank was not approved.

The army spokeswoman said Palestinian dual nationals and foreigners working in Gaza were being allowed to pass through Israel on Thursday for other points. By midday, 60 Palestinian-Americans had left Gaza for Jordan, and eight World Bank employees also left the strip, she said.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 21 Jun 07 - 09:33 PM

Hamas has tough road in disarming Gaza

By SARAH EL DEEB, Associated Press Writer
Thu Jun 21, 4:20 PM ET



GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - A metal door, a window frame and a faucet were the only items dropped off at a Hamas weapons collection point Thursday, a sign the Islamic militant group faces serious trouble in getting its hands on Gaza's estimated 400,000 firearms.

The three discarded items fell under the category of "looted government property" that Hamas also demanded be turned in along with weapons by Thursday. But it was arms the group really wanted.

Hamas leaders threatened harsh punishment for anyone caught with guns after the deadline.

But in chaotic Gaza, where defeated Fatah militants are hiding out and clan grudges can flare into open warfare at any moment, few believe Hamas will recover even a fraction of the territory's arsenal — enough to arm nearly one of every three people.

Some Fatah fighters said they hid their weapons away from their homes so Hamas gunmen would not find them in searches. Some buried their weapons, including one who said he put his gun under the family chicken coop.

Others said they threw their rifles into the sea rather than risk them falling into Hamas hands.

"I prefer to shoot myself rather than give them my gun. I don't trust them at all," said a 33-year-old Fatah-affiliated security officer, who gave his name only as Abu Subhi for fear of retaliation from Hamas.

The Islamic militants scored a major success last week by securing many of the weapons held by Gaza's security forces, most of whom were loyal to Fatah, analysts said. Hamas fighters captured the arms stored at security headquarters and used lists of officers to collect weapons at their homes.

"It looks to us that Hamas has succeeded in collecting the majority of the registered weapons that belong to the Palestinian security forces," said Hazem Abu Shanab, a Gaza-based political analyst.

Jamal al-Jarrah, commander of the Hamas militia known as the Executive Force, said Hamas had collected 90 percent of the security force weapons.

But the security forces had only 15,000 firearms — a number that pales against the 400,000 weapons estimated to be inside the Gaza Strip, analysts and former security officials said.

A measure of the difficulty of disarming the myriad private gangs came over the weekend in the southern city of Khan Younis, where Hamas forces and a clan known for drug-smuggling fought a five-hour battle with mortars and automatic weapons. Two people were killed, but Hamas came away with only a fifth of the family's arsenal, a Hamas official said.

As part of its weapons collection campaign, Hamas sent cars with loudspeakers into the streets and made announcements from mosques warning defeated security officers not to keep their weapons. It also phoned them at home demanding their weapons and asked tribal leaders to negotiate an arms handover.

The group set up seven sites around Gaza City for people to drop off their weapons, including the Shafei mosque in the eastern part of the city.

In the mosque's courtyard, young boys eagerly waited at a reception table with scrap paper, a pencil and a Quran, ready to collect and list guns or looted government property. All they got was the metal door, window frame and faucet. Someone also turned in a pocket knife.

Elsewhere, the group got back a small pickup truck that had been stolen from an intelligence security post.

Hamas said it wants only to gather weapons that might be used against it, and has no interest in firearms used for fighting Israel.

"Only those with clean hands should carry weapons. All the organizations that are using these guns to defend themselves against the occupation will be welcomed and supported," Mahmoud Zahar, a top Hamas official, told The Associated Press.

"But if people use guns to cause strife between families or to attack the official and unofficial institutions, they will be collected."

Hamas' mission has been made far more difficult by the rampant smuggling that brought arms into Gaza through tunnels under the Egyptian border — the source of much of Hamas' own arsenal.

The inflow of arms allowed many clans to build up their own militias with firepower and training rivaling the official security forces, a situation that was evident in Hamas' battle in Khan Younis last weekend.

Militants found themselves fighting a bitter battle in narrow alleys when they besieged the clan compound of the drug-smuggling clan, which was known for supporting Fatah.

Hamas stopped the fight after a clan leader agreed to hand over his fighters' weapons, said a clan security officer, who gave his name only as Abu Mohammed to keep his identity hidden from the militants.

The clan eventually turned over five rifles and a handgun. When asked if that was the family's whole arsenal, Abu Mohammed only smiled.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jun 07 - 03:25 PM

Washington Post:

Last Chance for Abbas

By Charles Krauthammer
Friday, June 22, 2007; Page A19

Gaza is now run not by a conventional political party but by a movement that is revolutionary, Islamist and terrorist. Worse, Hamas is a client of Iran. Gaza now constitutes the farthest reach of the archipelago of Iranian proxies: Hamas in Palestine, Hezbollah in Lebanon, the Mahdi Army (among others) in Iraq and the Alawite regime of Syria.

This Islamist mini-replica of the Comintern is at war not just with Israel but with the moderate Arab states, who finally woke up to this threat last summer when they denounced Hezbollah for provoking the Lebanon war with Israel. The fall of Gaza is particularly terrifying to Egypt because Hamas is so closely affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood, the chief Islamist threat to the secular-nationalist regime that has ruled Egypt since the revolution of 1952. Which is why Egypt has just invited Israeli, Jordanian and moderate Palestinian leaders to a summit next week -- pointedly excluding and isolating Hamas.

The splitting of Palestine into two entities is nonetheless clarifying. Since Hamas won the parliamentary elections of January 2006, we've had to deal with the fiction of a supposedly unified Palestine ruled by an avowedly "unity" government of Fatah and Hamas. Now the muddle has undergone political hydrolysis, separating out the relatively pure elements: a Hamas-ruled Gaza and Fatah-ruled (for now) West Bank.

The policy implications are obvious. There is nothing to do with the self-proclaimed radical Islamist entity that is Gaza but to isolate it. No recognition, no aid (except humanitarian necessities through the United Nations), no diplomatic commerce.

Israel now has the opportunity to establish deterrence against unremitting rocket attacks from Gaza into Israeli villages. Israel failed to do that after it evacuated Gaza in 2005, permitting the development of an unprecedented parasitism by willingly supplying food, water, electricity and gasoline to a territory that was actively waging hostilities against it.

With Hamas now clearly in charge, Israel should declare that it will tolerate no more rocket fire -- that the next Qassam will be answered with a cutoff of gasoline shipments. This should bring road traffic in Gaza to a halt within days and make it increasingly difficult to ferry around missiles and launchers.

If that fails to concentrate the mind, the next step should be to cut off electricity. When the world wails, Israel should ask, what other country on Earth is expected to supply the very means for a declared enemy to attack it?

Regarding the West Bank, policy should be equally clear. Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas represents moderation and should be helped as he tries to demonstrate both authority and success in running his part of Palestine.

But let's remember who Abbas is. He appears well intentioned, but he is afflicted with near-disastrous weaknesses. He controls little. His troops in Gaza simply collapsed against the greatly outnumbered forces of Hamas. His authority in the West Bank is far from universal. He does not even control the various factions within Fatah.

But the greater liability is his character. He is weak and indecisive. When he was Yasser Arafat's deputy, Abbas was known to respond to being slapped down by his boss by simply disappearing for weeks in a sulk. During the battle for Gaza, he did not order his Fatah forces to return fire against the Hamas insurrection until the fight was essentially over. Remember, too, that after Arafat's death Abbas ran the Palestinian Authority without a Hamas presence for more than a year. Can you name a single thing he achieved in that time?

Moreover, his Fatah party is ideologically spent and widely discredited. Historian Michael Oren points out that the Palestinian Authority has received more per capita aid than did Europe under the Marshall Plan. This astonishing largess has disappeared into lavish villas for party bosses and guns for the multiple militias Arafat established.

The West is rushing to bolster Abbas. Israel will release hundreds of millions in tax revenue. The United States and the European Union will be pouring in aid. All praise Abbas as a cross between Anwar Sadat and Simón Bolívar. Fine. We have no choice but to support him. But before we give him the moon, we should insist upon reasonable benchmarks of both moderation and good governance -- exactly what we failed to do during the Oslo process. Abbas needs to demonstrate his ability to run a clean administration and to engage Israel in day-to-day negotiations to alleviate the conditions of life on the ground.

Abbas is not Hamas. But despite the geographical advantages, he does not represent the second coming, either. We can prop him up only so much. In the end, the only one who can make a success of the West Bank is Abbas himself. This is his chance. His last chance.

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 11:37 AM

Lebanon calls for international support

By SAM F. GHATTAS, Associated Press Writers
26 minutes ago



BEIRUT, Lebanon - Lebanon's government said a deadly car bombing targeting U.N. peacekeepers was "a challenge to the international community," appealing Monday for outside help to prevent the country and the region from spiraling out of control.

Nobody has claimed responsibility for the bombing Sunday that killed three Colombian peacekeepers and two Spaniards. But the majority anti-Syrian coalition in parliament blamed the government in Damascus, despite its condemnation of the bombing.

Hezbollah, Syria's main ally in Lebanon, also condemned the attack.

The Cabinet issued a statement Monday saying the bombing was "an attack on Lebanon's security and stability and posed a challenge to the international community, which is standing on Lebanon's side."

Information Minister Ghazi Aridi told reporters after the meeting that Lebanon needed international support: "The collapse of this situation in Lebanon will lead to a collapse of the situation in all states in the region."

Earlier Monday, Spain's Defense Minister Jose Antonio Alonso arrived in southern Lebanon to collect the bodies of the six U.N. peacekeepers, as the U.N. commander stressed the force remained committed to keeping the peace between Lebanon and Israel.

The peacekeepers were patrolling a main road north of the Israeli border town of Metulla, when the bomb struck their armored personnel carrier.

Spain has 1,100 peacekeepers in Lebanon, part of the 13,000-member U.N. Interim Force in Lebanon from 30 countries, which first deployed in Lebanon in 1978 and was reinforced in the last year. UNIFIL, along with 15,000 Lebanese troops, patrols a zone along the Lebanese-Israeli border.

UNIFIL's presence puts teeth in U.N. cease-fire resolution 1701 that halted last summer's 34-day war. Southern Lebanon has been largely quiet after the summer war killed more than 1,200 people, most of them in Lebanon.

Tom Casey, a State Department spokesman, on Monday said the attack would not keep Lebanon from maintaining "a government that is free from the influence of outside forces or other countries and one that can serve the interests of the Lebanese people."

U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon condemned the attack Monday and called for a full investigation, U.N. spokeswoman Michele Montas said in a statement.

The attack, the first since UNIFIL was reinforced following last year's war, came as the U.N. has become increasingly involved in highly divisive issues in Lebanon, including its tense relations with neighboring Syria.

The UNIFIL commander, Gen. Claudio Graziano of Italy, said UNIFIL "remains committed more than ever to its mission."

Media reports earlier this month said interrogations by Lebanese authorities with captured al-Qaida-inspired militants revealed plots to attack the U.N. force. In addition, al-Qaida's No. 2, Ayman al-Zawahri, in videos broadcast in September, has denounced the reinforced UNIFIL.

But the majority anti-Syrian coalition in Lebanon's parliament has accused Syria in the bombing, as it has for other attacks there, beginning with the assassination of Hariri in 2005, a suicide truck bombing in Beirut that caused an international uproar, forcing Damascus to pull its army out of Lebanon after nearly three decades of control.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 02:40 PM

The trust of the Palestinians in their leaders is on an all time low (in comparison even GWBush looks popular):

In a new survey (after the Gaza coup), 11% in the Westbank were contented with Abbas, 8 % in Gaza.
Hanija, who had very high popularity ratings six months ago, has now only a 16 % support (being contented with) in the Westbank (my source, a German newspaer, gives no numbers for Gaza here).

The most irritating result is that 15 % of the Palestinians would even prefer Israeli occupation to the present administration.

Olmert has declared that Israel will release 250 Fatah prisoners. If the Israeli government is wiser than I fear they are, Marwan Barghuti will be among those released. He could be a strong man and a leader towards peace even with compromises. Then only Israel would need a similarly strong leader....

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 25 Jun 07 - 02:51 PM

The last post was mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 05:18 PM

6 militants killed in Lebanon clashes

By SAM F. GHATTAS, Associated Press Writer
26 minutes ago



BEIRUT, Lebanon - Lebanese troops raided an Islamic militant hideout in a hillside cave and killed six fighters Thursday as violence spread from a Palestinian refugee camp where the military has been battling an al-Qaida-inspired group.

The dawn gunbattle — a 20-minute drive from the Nahr el-Bared Palestinian camp by the northern port city of Tripoli — underscored the challenges the army faces in crushing the Fatah Islam militants.

It also indicated Fatah Islam may have found allies among Sunni militants and fundamentalists in the region who were not affiliated with the group.

The fighting at Nahr el-Bared has become the worst internal violence since Lebanon's 1975-90 civil war, and is believed to have claimed the lives of more than 160 people, including 84 soldiers, at least 60 militants and more than 20 civilians.

Fighting first began five weeks ago in Tripoli, a largely Sunni city. Then, it shifted to the Nahr el-Bared camp, after the militants barricaded themselves inside it.

Last weekend, it moved back to Tripoli, and on Thursday to the hills near Qalamoun, 3 miles south of the city.

Troops, backed by helicopters, descended on a Fatah Islam hideout obscured by dense growth in the hills above the Mediterranean coastline. The military said a number of soldiers were slightly wounded in the clashes.

The army was apparently tipped about the hideout by residents of a nearby village who had spotted strangers in the area.

An army said a unit pursuing militants in the area clashed with "a group of terrorists" barricaded inside a cave.

"The force eliminated all six members of the group, seizing a quantity of arms and ammunition," it said. The six were of different nationalities, the army said but did not identify them.

Qalamoun hospital officials said the dead included three Saudis, two Lebanese and a sixth man whose nationality was not immediately known. However, a security official in Beirut identified the slain militants as three Saudis, two Syrians and an Iraqi. There was no immediate explanation for the discrepancy.

The slain militants were all members of Fatah Islam, said the security official, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media. Fatah Islam is believed to consist of mostly foreigners, and Lebanon's Western-backed government has accused the group of trying to launch a rebellion in the north of the country.

The army has vowed to crush the militants since some 30 soldiers were killed during the first day of fighting — some as they slept in their tents around Nahr el-Bared, and others, who were off-duty, ambushed on the highway in Qalamoun.

Thursday's military statement vowed "to track down terrorists relentlessly" and not to leave them "any safe haven" to stage attacks.

President Emile Lahoud reiterated a demand that the militants surrender "as the only way" to end the fighting in the camp, parts of which have been devastated by the army bombardment.

Most of the camp's 30,000 Palestinians have fled to another camp nearby, but dozens of armed militants are believed to be holed up in Nahr el-Bared, along with several thousand civilians.

Fatah Islam leaders have threatened to take the fighting with the Lebanese army outside the camp if it continues its military offensive at Nahr el-Bared.

On Sunday, Lebanese troops raided an apartment complex in Tripoli suspected of housing Islamic militants, sparking a gunbattle that left six militants, a soldier and three others dead. Police were still investigating whether those militants had any links to Fatah Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jun 07 - 12:26 PM

New Palestinian PM wants to work with Israel

POSTED: 10:19 p.m. EDT, June 28, 2007

Story Highlights• Salam Fayyad urges "intensive and active cooperation" with Israel
• Rebellion of last few years has worsened Palestinian condition, he says
• Civilians should not have weapons, prime minister declares
• He advocates Palestinian state "side by side with the state of Israel"

RAMALLAH, West Bank (CNN) -- The new Palestinian government is seeking "intensive and active cooperation" with Israel to ensure that the chaos that recently gripped Gaza does not re-emerge in the West Bank, Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad told CNN on Thursday.

"We have sent that message [to Israel], and we are waiting to get started with this," Fayyad said in his first interview with a Western network since he was appointed to the post more than a week ago.

Fayyad rejected the notion that his stance on dealing with Israel might be seen by some Palestinians as collaborating with the occupying force in the West Bank.

"I have thick skin when it comes to these characterizations," he said. "They don't matter in the least; it doesn't concern me.

"I know what I want to do, I know what the mission is -- to serve the interests of the Palestinian people." (Watch Fayyad assess the state of the Palestinians )

Fayyad said security is a top priority, and he cautioned Palestinians not to use armed resistance as the only way to fight for an independent state.

"It's about time that we know what works and what doesn't work," he said. "And it's not enough to stop at statements and pronouncements like, 'Resistance is [the] right of any occupied people.'

"We certainly are [occupied], and that certainly is a right. But I think we have to have some sense of what has happened over the past ... seven, eight years.

"Simple, basic question: Are we better off now than we were then? Then, the situation was not great, but guess what it is like today? It's catastrophic."

Fayyad vowed to crack down on weapons in the hands of Palestinian civilians.

"Guns and arms are exclusively the property of the official agencies of the ... Palestinian National Authority, meaning that no more will guns out of the purview of the national authority ... be tolerated."

Rejecting 'chaos,' hoping for peace
He said that the recent division among Palestinians has "destroyed" the vision of a Palestinian state.

"This is complete chaos," he said. "Anyone resisting, however which way they want, whenever they want, from wherever they want, is that resistance? That has destroyed our national project completely."

Fayyad hopes to get the process toward "an independent Palestinian state living side by side with the state of Israel" back on track through peaceful means.

Although Fayyad is a political independent, he was appointed by Fatah leader and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas following Hamas' recent military seizure of Gaza.

That military action split the former Fatah-Hamas unity government, with Hamas in control of Gaza and Fatah in control of the West Bank. (Watch boys run from gunfire in Gaza )

Fayyad denied there are two Palestinian governments, saying the previous Hamas leaders are "not legitimate under our basic law."

Hamas leaders have said the same thing about Fayyad and his government.

Despite strong backing from the United States and the European Union -- which had cut off funding to the Palestinian government after Hamas' victory last year -- the new government has a long way to go to shed the image of corruption that surrounds Abbas' Fatah party.

Fayyad acknowledged that a key goal of his government is "an entirely different mind-set" in approaching the problems that the Palestinian people face.

"What really matters to me now the most -- before money, before anything else -- is a change in attitude," Fayyad said. "If we continue in this nickel-and-dime approach to dealing with the issues, I'm afraid we are never going to get anywhere, because that has been what has been happening over the past 13, 14 years."

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 08:38 AM

Palestinians flee as Lebanon army set to storm camp

By Nazih Saddiq
1 hour, 3 minutes ago



NAHR AL-BARED, Lebanon (Reuters) - About 160 Palestinians fled a refugee camp in north Lebanon on Wednesday as the Lebanese army prepared to launch a final assault against al Qaeda-inspired militants holed up inside.

Troops have been battling Fatah al-Islam fighters at Nahr al-Bared for nearly eight weeks in Lebanon's worst internal violence since the 1975-1990 civil war. A total of 205 people have been killed.

The army seized all the militants' positions on the outskirts of the camp last month but refrained from entering its official boundaries.

A 1969 Arab agreement had banned Lebanese security forces from entering Palestinian camps. The agreement was annulled by the Lebanese parliament in the mid 1980s but the accord effectively stayed in place.

Security and political sources said the army was concerned it was being dragged into a war of attrition with the militants dug in inside the camp's narrow alleys and decided to move in to crush them after they refused repeated calls for surrender.

A soldier was killed by a sniper on Tuesday. At least 87 soldiers, 75 militants and 43 civilians have been killed in the fighting that began on May 20.

The sources said the army deployed extra troops in the area and was expected to use helicopter gunships and naval boats as well as tanks and heavy artillery in any assault on the coastal encampment.

Palestinian sources said some of the last remaining civilians in the camp left on Wednesday ahead of the expected assault. Local representatives of Fatah and other factions of the Palestine Liberation Organisation also left.

Witnesses said some two dozen men who left the camp were taken by the army to a nearby barracks for questioning. Red Cross sources said a total of 161 people, including women and children, left.

Most of Nahr al-Bared's 40,000 inhabitants fled in the early days of the fighting but a few thousands have stayed behind.

The Lebanese government says Fatah al-Islam is a tool of Syrian intelligence, a charge Damascus and Fatah al-Islam deny. The group says it has no organizational ties with al Qaeda, but supports its militant ideology.

Some of its members -- mainly Lebanese, Palestinians, Syrians and Saudis -- have fought in Iraq. Security sources say at least 10 Saudis are among the dead militants.

The authorities have blamed the group for twin bus bombings in a Christian area near Beirut in February that killed three civilians. Investigators are also pointing a finger at the militants in the assassination of an anti-Syrian Christian government minister last November.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Jul 07 - 09:29 AM

Lebanon launches assault against militants

Story Highlights
Lebanese troops shell refugee camp in bid to oust entrenched Islamist militants

Army claims a number of militants killed; unsure how many are still in camp

Scores of militants, 88 service members killed in eight weeks of fighting

Violence is worst in Lebanon since end of civil war in 1990

   
BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) - The Lebanese army pounded a Palestinian refugee camp in northern Lebanon with heavy artillery Thursday in what one high-ranking Lebanese security source described as a final bid to oust the Islamist militants entrenched inside.


People flee the embattled Palestinian refugee camp near the southern entrance blocked by Lebanese army trucks.

The Lebanese army, however, denied the shelling constituted a final push, describing the operation as continued pressure on the militants.

Fighting around the coastal Nahr al-Bared camp has been simmering on and off for about eight weeks, but flared Thursday as fresh army reinforcements were brought into the area as part of a final assault, the source said.

The sounds of artillery could be heard as black smoke billowed over the bombed-out refugee camp, some from fires triggered by the shelling.

The Lebanese army said they had killed a number of militants in the renewed clashes, but were unsure how many remained holed up inside.

Since the beginning of the assault against the Fatah al-Islam fighters - which are said to have ties with al Qaeda - scores of militants and at least 88 Lebanese service members have been killed.

The army said another soldier was killed on Tuesday by sniper fire coming from within the camp - a tactic that has become a danger for troops in the area. A number of soldiers have been killed by snipers before, the army said.

The sometimes-fierce battles mark the worst internal violence since the end of Lebanon's civil war in 1990.

Violence echoes of 'horrific' past

The violence began May 20, when Lebanese internal security forces were conducting raids in a Tripoli neighborhood, triggering clashes near the refugee camp. Army sources said militants from Fatah al-Islam fired on the forces, who then returned fire.

The fighting in the north is an added concern for Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora one year since Hezbollah guerrillas in the south of the country crossed the Israeli border, killing three soldiers and capturing two, who have yet to be released - prompting Israel to unleash a massive bombing campaign and invasion of Lebanese territory.

Attempts at mediations between Islamist leaders and the militant group have failed, and the military's top commanders have insisted they will crush the militants if they do not surrender.

Previous military operations launched against the camp have included a barrage of 155mm artillery rounds and a naval gunship.

The Lebanese army has launched attacks from nearby the camp, but troops have not ventured inside the camp's parameters, as part of a 1969 agreement that allows the Palestinian refugees to run the camps.

Meanwhile, most of the roughly 30,000 Palestinians who used to live in the once-overcrowded camp have now fled. Some left on foot carrying babies and only a few belongings, while others crammed into cars and vans.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 08:53 AM

Lebanese army kills 28 militants

By SAM F. GHATTAS, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 32 minutes ago



BEIRUT, Lebanon - Lebanese troops killed 28 al-Qaida-inspired militants and captured 15 others in a massive    fight Sunday after they broke out of a northern Palestinian refugee camp devastated by over three months of fighting, a senior security official said.

The official spoke on condition of anonymity because no official casualty figure was released.

Heavy    battles that began during the dawn breakout continued through early afternoon, with troops engaging Fatah Islam fighters in buildings, fields and roads around Nahr el-Bared camp, residents and television stations reported.

In a statement, the military said troops were attacking the remaining militant strongholds inside Nahr el-Bared and "chasing the fugitives outside the camp" who had staged "a desperate attempt to flee."

It called on Lebanese citizens to inform the nearest army patrol of any suspected militants in their area, but gave no specifics on casualties excepting saying "a large number" had been killed or captured.

Lebanese security officials, who also spoke on condition of anonymity because no official casualty figures had been released by the military, said two Lebanese soldiers were killed in the fighting, raising to 155 the total number of troops who have died in the conflict.

Before Sunday's battle, Lebanese officials had said up to 70 Fatah Islam fighters remained in the camp. When the fighting broke out more than three months ago, the number was estimated at 360.

Sunday's developments indicated the battle was almost over for the camp, large parts of which have been reduced to rubble.

According to security officials and television reports, the breakout began early Sunday when a group of militants sneaked through an underground tunnel to an area of the camp under army control and fought with troops. At the same time, another group of militants struck elsewhere to try to escape, reportedly receiving help from militants outside the camp.

State-run Lebanese television said the militants inside the camp were aided by outside fighters who arrived in civilian cars to attack army positions around the camp.

Residents said troop reinforcements deployed close to the camp and blocked roads to prevent fighters from sneaking out. Helicopters provided aerial reconnaissance.

State television reported Lebanese residents of nearby villages, armed with    s and sticks, fanned out to protect their houses and prevent militants from seeking refuge and melting into the local population.

Army officials said they did not know whether Fatah Islam leader Shaker al-Absi was among those who attempted to break out. Al-Absi has not been seen or heard since early in the fighting. His deputy, Abu Hureira, was killed by security forces in Tripoli recently, apparently after escaping the siege.

Fighting erupted May 20 between troops and Fatah Islam militants holed up in Nahr el-Bared camp near Tripoli, becoming Lebanon's worst internal          since the 1975-90 civil war.

The battles have killed more than 20 civilians and scores of militants. Families of the militants — women and children — were evacuated late last month, the last civilians to leave the camp.

Prior to Sunday, the army had inched its way into the camp under artillery and rocket fire, destroying buildings and capturing militants' fortified positions one by one while facing tough resistance from the Islamic fighters.

In recent days, the army has cornered the militants in a small area of the camp and has been pounding it with       dropped by helicopters.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 07:33 PM

Lebanon may gain new muscle after camp victory


by Nayla Razzouk
Mon Sep 3, 12:32 PM ET



BEIRUT (AFP) - The Lebanese army's victory over an Islamist militia in a Palestinian refugee camp may help the government extend its authority over other off-limits camps, poverty-stricken shantytowns that have become breeding grounds for extremism, analysts said on Monday.

Troops may have crushed Fatah al-Islam in Nahr al-Bared in a final showdown on Sunday, but fears persist that violence may spread through the country's dozen camps where hardline groups have gained influence as their impoverished residents despair of ever seeing an end to their plight.

"Fatah al-Islam has been defeated. But every 'martyr' and every event is a source of inspiration for new jihadists," said Bernard Rougier, a French expert on jihadist movements.

"There is no reason for the jihadist movement to stop in Lebanon, or that it is used by some parties for their own interests," he told AFP on a visit to Lebanon on Monday.

Fatah al-Islam first surfaced in the seafront camp of Nahr al-Bared late last year, triggering the drawn-out standoff with the army after attacking military posts in and around the camp on May 20.

Its fighters, who are said to be inspired by Osama bin Laden's Al-Qaeda terror network, are of various Arab nationalities, not just Palestinian.

MP Farid al-Khazen, political science professor at the American University of Beirut, said it was the absence of Lebanese government authority over the camps -- which under a tacit agreement were in the control of armed Palestinian groups -- that allowed a militia like Fatah al-Islam to spawn.

"After this costly battle, there cannot be any justification to keep these security islands outside government control, especially as today there is no link between the armed presence inside the camps and the struggle to regain occupied Palestinian lands," he told AFP.

But Khazen said extending government control to the camps was not easy to achieve, nor likely in the near future.

"It needs a big political momentum. It is a delicate matter that needs a strong government and a more stable situation than today when the country is going through a deep political crisis and is facing looming presidential elections," he said.

Prime Minister Fuad Siniora insisted on Sunday that Nahr al-Bared would be under the sole authority of Lebanese security forces.

Lebanon's 12 Palestinian refugee camps, which house well over half of the country's more than 400,000 refugees, have been off-limits to the army for decades under a 1969 accord even though it was annulled by parliament in 1987.

Three days after the fighting erupted, the Palestine Liberation Organisation representative in Lebanon, Abbas Ziki, said the PLO would not object if the Lebanese army decided to send troops into the camp.

But it took the army weeks of bombardments from outside the camp -- as well as much political wrangling -- before troops moved in to Nahr al-Bared, the first such move by the military in decades.

"The PLO leadership as the representative of the Palestinians in Lebanon is adamant that the Palestinians and the camps in Lebanon be under Lebanese authority," Ziki's deputy Kamal Nagi told AFP.

"When the residents of the camp return, we will reach an understanding on all issues, primarily on security," he said.

Nagi said "any security breach may drag the camps into troubles, so we will cooperate with the government and the army to prevent any party from harming the security of the camps."

But Rougier said threats from Islamist extremists were not exclusive to the Palestinian camps.

"Lebanon is not safe from these movements. Lebanon is not safe from terrorism, especially that it is being mentioned by many jihadists, including (Al-Qaeda's fugitive number two) Ayman Zawahiri," he said.

"But I don't think there will be problems with hihadist movements from inside the other Palestinian camps, as they have become more realistic and have gained experience in the political game," he said.

"After what happened in Nahr al-Bared, they will not jeopardise their enclaves, in addition to the fact that there is a lot of vigilance from stabilisation forces both inside and outside the camps," he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 10:11 PM

And back in the almost state on the West Bank...


New piety squad patrols Ramallah

By DALIA NAMMARI, Associated Press Writer
Thu Sep 27, 4:44 PM ET



RAMALLAH, West Bank - A new squad of morality police has begun detaining Palestinians who eat or drink in public during Ramadan in the West Bank, where the Islamic month of daytime fasting was always widely observed but never imposed.

The 12-member squad appears to be an attempt by President Mahmoud Abbas' West Bank government to challenge the monopoly on religious righteousness claimed by the militant group Hamas, the rival ruler of Gaza.

The sudden deployment of Ramadan police was unexpected in Ramallah, the seat of Abbas' government and the most cosmopolitan and well-to-do of the Palestinian cities. Ramadan squads have not been set up in other West Bank towns.

Watching observers arrive at one of the town's main mosques one recent afternoon, vice squad Lt. Murad Qendah got a radio call telling him a suspect has been spotted in the street imbibing "karoub" — a local soft drink made from carob pods. He ordered his six-man squad to seize the man's papers pending investigation. Police say violators are usually held for 24 hours.

"If anybody violates respect for Ramadan in the street, we take their identity papers and hold them for investigation," said Qendah, 27, whose officers wear red shoulder badges reading "morality police."

Police spokesman Adnan al-Damari said police have arrested at least 50 alleged public morality offenders in Ramallah since the start of Ramadan, but would not be going after people who break the fast in their own homes.

"The duty of the morality police is to preserve public manners in public places, and to preserve the feelings of the people who are fasting," he said. "Violating the holiness of Ramadan is a violation of people's freedom. "

Islamic custom demands that believers fast and refrain from self-indulgence between sunrise and sunset during Ramadan, which began Sept. 13 in the West Bank this year. The fast is largely observed across the Muslim world; voluntarily in some countries and under strict enforcement in others such as Saudi Arabia and Bahrain.

Writer Hassan Dandees, 58, said the government was right to seek to uphold religious standards.

"This is not a violation of anybody's freedom," he said. "Ramadan has a holiness every person should respect."

But Ruba el-Mimi, 21, said she opposes the police action.

"It interferes with the privacy of the individual. People are free to fast or not," she said. "If somebody is not fasting, he's not doing harm."

In addition to booking smokers, snackers and carob juice drinkers, Qendah is also on the alert for young men whistling at girls or drivers playing their car stereos too loud.

Although the piety squad has government sanction, Cabinet minister Ashraf al-Ajrami, said he is uncomfortable with the operation and the impression that the government was trying to be more zealous than Hamas.

"We are studying this issue, and there's a possibility we shall end it," he said. "We don't want to change the order of things and appear as if we are following in the footsteps of somebody or imitating somebody."

Hamas rode support for its pious and incorruptible image to a landslide parliamentary election victory in 2006, then ran Fatah out of the Gaza Strip by force in June.

The religious party has imposed no Ramadan patrol of its own in Gaza, where the population is overwhelmingly conservative and social pressure alone is enough to stop public violations of the fast. Even members of the strip's small Christian community are careful not to cause offense by breaching the Ramadan code in front of their Muslim neighbors.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 05:35 PM

Washington Post:

A Nation Of Mideast Hostages

By David Ignatius Thursday, October 25, 2007; Page A25

BEIRUT - Here's a Lebanese group snapshot, taken in the land where politics is an extreme sport:

In an elegant apartment building overlooking the Mediterranean, several dozen members of the anti-Syrian parliamentary majority are holed up under heavy security. The legislators are trying to stay alive long enough to elect a new president by a Nov. 24 deadline, despite an assassination campaign that has already killed several MPs who dared to challenge Syria and its ally Hezbollah, the Shiite militia.

A few hundred yards away, Prime Minister Fouad Siniora is hunkered down in the Grand Serail, as his office is known. He doesn't budge, even though Hezbollah has demanded for the past year that he and his U.S.-backed government resign. Despite the crowds outside chanting for his head, he says he's serene. "Don't ever think that I will blink," Siniora says. It's a statement that might be Lebanon's national political motto.

In the streets surrounding Siniora's office are Hezbollah demonstrators. They've been here for months, as stubborn as Siniora. Though they wave Lebanese flags above their encampment, they are widely seen as proxy forces of Syria and Iran. They are demanding a "consensus" Lebanese president elected with a two-thirds vote, which would effectively give Hezbollah a veto. "The Syrians would prefer to keep the presidency vacant if they don't have a say," explains one prominent pro-Syrian politician.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 05:42 PM

I disagree that anyone can move to Israel and be comfortable with that. Of course, this
would be true with any of Israel's neighbors.

It comes down to theology. Israel purports to be democratic but is theocratic in many respects. Zionism itself is a form of theocracy.

We are looking at religious wars in the Mid-East. (my god is bigger than your god)

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 11:14 PM

Target Iran - Part 1

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Peace
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 11:27 PM

Once bombs start falling, the causes cease to matter. Good video, LH.

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 12:27 AM

Thanks. I thought so too. Here's part II...even better.

Target Iran - Part 2

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 09:51 AM

Interesting

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7063135.stm

Subject: What do you think of Obadiah Shoher's
From: GUEST,AlexZello
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 05:54 AM

What do you think of Obadiah Shoher's views on the Middle East conflict? One can argue, of course, that Shoher is ultra-right, but his followers are far from being a marginal group. Also, he rejects Jewish moralistic reasoning - that's alone is highly unusual for the Israeli right. And he is very influential here in Israel. So what do you think? One can argue, of course, that Shoher is ultra-right, but his followers are far from being a marginal group. Also, he rejects Jewish moralistic reasoning - that's alone is highly unusual for the Israeli right. And he is very influential here in Israel. So what do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Another war in the Middle East?
From: GUEST,AlexZello
Date: 09 Feb 08 - 10:55 PM

What do you think of Obadiah Shoher's views on the Middle East conflict? One can argue, of course, that Shoher is ultra-right, but his followers are far from being a marginal group. Also, he rejects Jewish moralistic reasoning - that's alone is highly unusual for the Israeli right. And he is very influential here in Israel. So what do you think? One can argue, of course, that Shoher is ultra-right, but his followers are far from being a marginal group. Also, he rejects Jewish moralistic reasoning - that's alone is highly unusual for the Israeli right. And he is very influential here in Israel. So what do you think? uh, here's the site in question: [url=http://samsonblinded.org/blog]Middle East conflict[/url]