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Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?

GUEST 21 May 07 - 02:50 AM
Mick Tems 21 May 07 - 03:01 AM
Raggytash 21 May 07 - 03:08 AM
nutty 21 May 07 - 03:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 May 07 - 03:10 AM
Schantieman 21 May 07 - 03:16 AM
guitar 21 May 07 - 03:19 AM
Jean(eanjay) 21 May 07 - 03:31 AM
GUEST 21 May 07 - 03:37 AM
Blowzabella 21 May 07 - 03:38 AM
Blowzabella 21 May 07 - 03:41 AM
Mick Tems 21 May 07 - 03:43 AM
greg stephens 21 May 07 - 03:59 AM
guitar 21 May 07 - 04:07 AM
mandotim 21 May 07 - 04:12 AM
Richard Bridge 21 May 07 - 04:36 AM
Ella who is Sooze 21 May 07 - 04:42 AM
skipy 21 May 07 - 04:59 AM
The Fooles Troupe 21 May 07 - 05:20 AM
Liz the Squeak 21 May 07 - 05:42 AM
Schantieman 21 May 07 - 05:52 AM
woodsie 21 May 07 - 06:07 AM
Backwoodsman 21 May 07 - 06:16 AM
Liz the Squeak 21 May 07 - 06:19 AM
skipy 21 May 07 - 06:22 AM
Micca 21 May 07 - 07:05 AM
InOBU 21 May 07 - 07:49 AM
RangerSteve 21 May 07 - 07:49 AM
GUEST 21 May 07 - 07:51 AM
GUEST 21 May 07 - 07:54 AM
Liz the Squeak 21 May 07 - 07:56 AM
Liz the Squeak 21 May 07 - 07:57 AM
GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler 21 May 07 - 07:58 AM
GUEST 21 May 07 - 08:06 AM
Ella who is Sooze 21 May 07 - 08:22 AM
Sorcha 21 May 07 - 08:24 AM
GUEST,Phot in the Pacific 21 May 07 - 09:18 AM
Charley Noble 21 May 07 - 09:52 AM
artbrooks 21 May 07 - 10:28 AM
The Fooles Troupe 21 May 07 - 10:39 AM
Greg B 21 May 07 - 10:45 AM
Teribus 21 May 07 - 10:54 AM
EBarnacle 21 May 07 - 11:23 AM
Backwoodsman 21 May 07 - 11:45 AM
DonMeixner 21 May 07 - 11:57 AM
skipy 21 May 07 - 11:59 AM
s&r 21 May 07 - 12:00 PM
Teribus 21 May 07 - 12:00 PM
GUEST,Matelot 21 May 07 - 12:05 PM
GUEST 21 May 07 - 12:09 PM
SussexCarole 21 May 07 - 01:14 PM
DonMeixner 21 May 07 - 01:22 PM
Micca 21 May 07 - 01:48 PM
Peace 21 May 07 - 02:09 PM
Micca 21 May 07 - 02:30 PM
Peace 21 May 07 - 02:40 PM
Schantieman 21 May 07 - 02:45 PM
Micca 21 May 07 - 03:00 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 21 May 07 - 03:29 PM
Teribus 21 May 07 - 04:12 PM
Liz the Squeak 21 May 07 - 04:13 PM
Liz the Squeak 21 May 07 - 04:13 PM
Ernest 21 May 07 - 04:16 PM
Liz the Squeak 21 May 07 - 04:23 PM
GUEST 21 May 07 - 05:03 PM
BusyBee Paul 21 May 07 - 05:09 PM
Rowan 21 May 07 - 07:14 PM
Joe Offer 21 May 07 - 07:33 PM
Barry Finn 21 May 07 - 07:41 PM
Charley Noble 21 May 07 - 09:38 PM
GUEST 21 May 07 - 10:07 PM
katlaughing 21 May 07 - 10:54 PM
GUEST 21 May 07 - 11:21 PM
Blowzabella 22 May 07 - 03:52 AM
Andy Jackson 22 May 07 - 03:58 AM
guitar 22 May 07 - 05:23 AM
fisheye 22 May 07 - 05:47 AM
Mo the caller 22 May 07 - 06:10 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 22 May 07 - 06:17 AM
GUEST,edthefolkie 22 May 07 - 07:35 AM
Teribus 22 May 07 - 08:02 AM
Blowzabella 22 May 07 - 08:11 AM
Grab 22 May 07 - 08:16 AM
Charley Noble 22 May 07 - 08:32 AM
Blowzabella 22 May 07 - 08:57 AM
Blowzabella 22 May 07 - 09:15 AM
GUEST,edthefolkie 22 May 07 - 09:26 AM
fat B****rd 22 May 07 - 09:40 AM
beardedbruce 22 May 07 - 10:17 AM
Blowzabella 22 May 07 - 10:27 AM
beardedbruce 22 May 07 - 10:29 AM
Catherine Jayne 22 May 07 - 10:36 AM
Uncle_DaveO 22 May 07 - 11:05 AM
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Rowan 22 May 07 - 07:09 PM
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EBarnacle 22 May 07 - 08:22 PM
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The Walrus 23 May 07 - 11:00 AM
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Blowzabella 23 May 07 - 01:46 PM
Greg B 23 May 07 - 02:49 PM
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Blowzabella 23 May 07 - 06:10 PM
EBarnacle 23 May 07 - 09:12 PM
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beardedbruce 24 May 07 - 02:09 PM
Blowzabella 24 May 07 - 05:56 PM
beardedbruce 24 May 07 - 05:57 PM
Greg B 24 May 07 - 06:58 PM
Liz the Squeak 25 May 07 - 02:55 AM
GUEST 25 May 07 - 11:13 AM
Charley Noble 25 May 07 - 11:33 AM
Greg B 25 May 07 - 11:36 AM
Barry Finn 25 May 07 - 01:02 PM
Charley Noble 25 May 07 - 01:38 PM
Charley Noble 25 May 07 - 01:44 PM
Charley Noble 25 May 07 - 02:21 PM
Liz the Squeak 26 May 07 - 10:28 AM
EBarnacle 26 May 07 - 12:26 PM
severed-head 26 May 07 - 04:42 PM
Barry Finn 26 May 07 - 05:30 PM
Muttley 26 May 07 - 09:39 PM
Liz the Squeak 27 May 07 - 08:32 PM
Greg B 27 May 07 - 09:22 PM
The Walrus 27 May 07 - 09:34 PM
Charley Noble 09 Feb 10 - 08:29 PM
kendall 10 Feb 10 - 07:28 AM
GUEST,Henryp 10 Feb 10 - 07:37 AM
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EBarnacle 10 Feb 10 - 01:33 PM
Charley Noble 10 Feb 10 - 01:55 PM
Charley Noble 11 Feb 10 - 07:59 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 11 Feb 10 - 08:16 AM
manitas_at_work 11 Feb 10 - 09:05 AM
EBarnacle 11 Feb 10 - 10:33 AM
Charley Noble 11 Feb 10 - 10:44 AM
kendall 11 Feb 10 - 12:46 PM
Howard Jones 11 Feb 10 - 12:55 PM
GUEST,Henryp 11 Feb 10 - 04:54 PM
Bruce D 12 Feb 10 - 05:37 AM
GUEST,Henryp 12 Feb 10 - 07:33 AM
Lonesome EJ 12 Feb 10 - 12:38 PM
Richard Bridge 12 Feb 10 - 01:00 PM
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GUEST,punkfolkrocker 12 Feb 10 - 01:30 PM
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Bruce D 13 Feb 10 - 12:45 AM
GUEST 15 Feb 10 - 11:41 AM
Pierre Le Chapeau 16 Feb 10 - 06:34 AM
Charley Noble 19 Aug 10 - 08:21 AM
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Keith A of Hertford 03 Feb 12 - 05:35 AM
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Manitas_at_home 04 Feb 12 - 02:45 AM
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Manitas_at_home 04 Feb 12 - 03:48 AM
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Keith A of Hertford 24 Apr 12 - 08:48 AM
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Charley Noble 24 Apr 12 - 09:37 AM
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Subject: BS: Cutty Sark ablaze (UK)
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 07 - 02:50 AM

What a tragedy.

Presumably the same crew of renovation workers who burnt down Windsor Castle.
    I put this in the music section because of the obvious folkloric value of the Cutty Sark.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Mick Tems
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:01 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6675381.stm

Oh, God. She was a famous, unique ship. I'm much too far from Greenwich, but what is going to happen to the sea song and shanty sessions?


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:08 AM

I fear from, the little I saw on the news, that the ship will be completely destroyed, a very sad loss, however it would appear that no one was injured which in the great scheme of things is far more important. No doubt funds wil be forthcoming to build a replica using whatever is left of the fabric and a heritage centre erected to show to devistation of the blaze.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: nutty
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:08 AM

Apparently 50% of the ship had been removed for restoration, so the damage may not be as catastrophic as thought at first.

Providing that the iron frame of the ship has not been distorted it should be possible to re restore the vessel.
Obviously this would mean that the vessel would not be completely original.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:10 AM

The masts and many timbers had been removed and are safe.
The ship will be resrored.
They say it was arson.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Schantieman
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:16 AM

Apparently the fire is now more or less out. 50% of the deck planking has been destroyed ot badly damaged but the hull seems more or less intact. (This from an interview with somone who seemed to know what he was talking about, on The Today Programme this morning.

Good job the gas cylinders didn't go off!

Steve


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: guitar
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:19 AM

aye and how many £'s will it cost the tax payer to fix the boat, because the government won't pay a thing an I beat they'll set up a fund, to fix the old boat


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Subject: RE: BS: Cutty Sark ablaze (UK)
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:31 AM

Windsor Castle was burnt down by carelessness - a lamp was left alight too close to a curtain.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:37 AM

I was down there with Cobble yesterday taking pix of what can be seen of the restoration (I had forgotten that it was being done) all the masts spars and rigging had been removed so they are probably safe and according to the local TV news this morning the damage while extensive , may not be catastrophic. There was already a 25 million pound restoration fund in place for the work that had already started so maybe it will cover some ,if not all of the costs of repair and restoration. The suggestion seemed to be that a large amount of her timbers and planking would need replacing anyway. A lot seems to depend on whether the wrought iron frames on which the hull timbers are mounted have survived undamaged.
A sad day for those who love ships and for sailors everywhere, and for Londoners for whom it was both an attraction, a symbol, and an old friend.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:38 AM

Guitar - sorry don't understand what you are saying - you say ...

'how many £'s will it cost the tax payer to fix the boat, because the government won't pay a thing'

Surely, if the government won't pay a thing ... er, it won't cost the taxpayer ... a thing.

Where do you think the government gets its 'things', if not from the taxpayer???

If the government were to pay for restoration, then it would cost the taxpayer. I can't make out if you are saying that would be a good thing or a bad thing?

Or are you just having an incomprehensible rant?


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:41 AM

I saw her last May and, have to say, she was in a dreadful state then. Even her keel looked to be virtually rotten. As thet were in the middle of restoring her, they would have been replacing many of the timbers too. Of course, th eold argument arises - at what point does it stop being the Cutty Sark etc etc.

I think there is little doubt that the cast iron frame will have been affected by the fire - to what degree remains to be seen.

The police, at the moment, are treating the fire as suspicious.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Mick Tems
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:43 AM

BBC News (8.30am) sounded more hopeful. The ship was undergoing restoration and was closed to the public. Apparently the famous masts and all the priceless artifacts had been removed and were not damaged.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:59 AM

No boat of that age is all original.It will be restored well and be as fine as ever.And still the same boat. Boats are just the same as houses, bits need replacing from time to time.A great nuisance, but not a tragedy.And it's an ill wind that blows nobody any good: boat building skills need maintaining or they get lost!


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: guitar
Date: 21 May 07 - 04:07 AM

I didn't realize that I wrote that until you pointed it to me. Thank you


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: mandotim
Date: 21 May 07 - 04:12 AM

I have my grandfather's axe. My father replaced the head, and I replaced the shaft. I have my grandfather's axe. The restored ship will still be the Cutty Sark; you can't burn history and context.
Tim


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 May 07 - 04:36 AM

Was it insured?


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Subject: RE: BS: Cutty Sark ablaze (UK)
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 21 May 07 - 04:42 AM

I'm gutted, that ship held fond childhood memories. We used to visit it alot when we lived nearer to London. It used to be a day trip out. I've also got a lovely photo of my dad (who died in Feb) standing next to it.

Shame, real shame.

EWIS


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Subject: RE: BS: Cutty Sark ablaze (UK)
From: skipy
Date: 21 May 07 - 04:59 AM

Reading the "BBC front page" it appears to be not as bad as thought earlier.
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: Cutty Sark ablaze (UK)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:20 AM

Looking at the TV pic - it just looked like a burnt out hulk...


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Subject: RE: BS: Cutty Sark ablaze (UK)
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:42 AM

The picture is misleading as most of the metalwork and 50% of the timber had already been removed for renovation, a huge programme of which had started fairly recently. What burnt was the remaining wooden bits and most of the damage seems to be char.

The facts that Limpit and I were in Greenwich on Saturday; that my grandmother burnt down 3 cottages when she was 9; and I've been suffering from stress recently have no connection whatsoever with this event.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Schantieman
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:52 AM

Big chunks of HMS VICTORY have been replaced by GRP and new wood during restoration, but it's still the same ship (NOT a boat!)

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Cutty Sark ablaze (UK)
From: woodsie
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:07 AM

Here is a bit from the BBC:

"A fire which severely damaged the famous 19th Century ship Cutty Sark is being treated as suspicious by police.
The ship, which was undergoing a major restoration project, is kept in a dry dock at Greenwich in south-east London.

An area around the 138-year-old tea clipper had to be evacuated when the fire broke out in the early hours."

I am devestated. This was a vital part of Greenwich, a beautiful clipper. A meeting point for travellers and an icon - there is even a whisky named after it! Lets hope that they can fully restore it - I know they were short of funds as it was, let's hope there is some sort of insurance cover.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:16 AM

She's a ship, not a boat. A boat is the thing hanging from the davits on board a ship (or alternatively, it's acceptable to describe a submarine as a boat).


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Subject: RE: BS: Cutty Sark ablaze (UK)
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:19 AM

As far as being short of funding goes, this fire couldn't have happened at a better time... it will raise the profile, there will be calls for people to donate to 'save this gallant little clipper' and the fund should recieve a huge boost from people that care.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: skipy
Date: 21 May 07 - 06:22 AM

Trigger has still got his original roadsweepers brush!
Just that the handle has been replaced twice & the head five times!
Skipy


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Micca
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:05 AM

Sorry friends, Guest 3.37 was me posting at work, I was so upset I forgot to sign it


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: InOBU
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:49 AM

what a real tragidy... saw her years back... I hope folks might feel inspired to donate to restore her, she is the last of her kind, and great when she was in service.
lor


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: RangerSteve
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:49 AM

I saw the story on the news this morning in the U.S. They seemed optimistic that it will be saved. Anyway, the question in my mind is, where does the name Cutty Sark come from?


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:51 AM

well I agree with guitar it is a boat


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:54 AM

a boat or a ship who cares it floats on water anorack


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:56 AM

The Cutty Sark is named after the witch in a Robbie Burns poem 'Tam O'Shanter'. Wikipediment says it's 18th Century Scots for a short shirt.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Cutty Sark ablaze (UK)
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:57 AM

Can a helpful little elf combine the two Cutty Sark threads please?

LTS
    Done.
    -Helpful Little Joe-


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:58 AM

So, seeing as she's in a dry dock and not floating...:)


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 07 - 08:06 AM

So it's gang up on Guitar is it? I mean that 's great know I know that'll never diss him unlike you lot, I mean I wouldn't like you lot as my friends that is these one's who like splitting hairs.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 21 May 07 - 08:22 AM

as I said in the other thread, it holds lovely memories for me too. used to be a place I went to   visit on days out with my parents when I were a child. It's a lovely ship, a real shame.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Sorcha
Date: 21 May 07 - 08:24 AM

Dave Bryant took me to see her. Now they're both gone....sad.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,Phot in the Pacific
Date: 21 May 07 - 09:18 AM

I used to go and see her with my late Grandparents when I used to live in The Smoke. I used to want to see her so often that we used to joke that I had shares in her! Such a shame this has happened. But with luck like the Mary Ellen Carter, she'll rise again!

Wassail1 Chris.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 May 07 - 09:52 AM

It's still a shock to see the pictures and read the story. And I hope that this near disastor helps mobilize a capital campaign that will rebuild the ship, and recommission her for sailing! I do remember prowling aboard her in 1997.

While revisiting Sydney, Australia, I was amazed at the work that went into restoring the James Craig and then even more amazed when I learned they were actually sailing her.

I also remember reading how C. Fox Smith took such great delight in being a passenger aboard her as she was towed to Greenwich (See THE RETURN OF THE CUTTY SARK, by C. Fox Smith, © 1924), knowing that she was to be restored rather than scrapped for salvage.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 May 07 - 10:28 AM

Terrible thing! If it was started, I hope that they catch the bastard and keelhaul him!

I spent a lot of time on the brig Niagara when we lived in Erie, Pennsylvania. It was part of Perry's Great Lakes fleet, and was purposely sunk in 1820 as excess to the US Navy's needs at the time. It was later raised, in 1913, as part of the centenary of the War of 1812. The term used for what was done to the Niagara is "reconstruction" - although there are original timbers in the present ship, they are more-or-less encapsulated and aren't really part of the ship's structure. The Niagara sails on a regular basis, mostly locally, in Lake Erie.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 May 07 - 10:39 AM

Saw a doco on the Irrawaddy Paddlesteamer flotilla - sunk in WWII to deny the Japanese - now being raised and restored and used.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Greg B
Date: 21 May 07 - 10:45 AM

When I visited in the 90's I was invited to chantey for
kids on on overnight visitation program; they were operating
a windlass as I recall.

I was somewhat disconcerted by the great gaping doorway that
had been cut into her side to admit the public. I hope that
will be remedied somehow in the restoration to still allow
access for those with disabilities, but without the great
gaping doorway in the wrong place.

Perhaps now they'll also add a fire suppression system.

Interesting interview on the BBC this morning, with the head
of the foundation that owns her. Clare Balderson (sp?) asked
him why the ship was so significant. He held forth that ships
of the Cutty Sark's type were the 'final' development of ships
of the sailing trade.

I guess perhaps he was forgetting that there was a generation
of more practical iron packet ships of relatively greater
displacement that were more commercially viable and successful,
albeit not so fast and graceful as the clippers. These followed
the Cutty Sark's generation by some decades. Or perhaps his pride
in his personal favorite was showing. I suppose he might be
forgiven a bit of hyperbole, when she lies in ashes.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Teribus
Date: 21 May 07 - 10:54 AM

Clouds and silver linings - I saw on the BBC Scottish news that because of what had happened to the "Cutty Sark" in Greenwich, that the decision to demolish what is left of the "Carrick" (Another Clipper currently rotting away ashore in Irvine, Ayrshire) may be reversed and that she will be "reconstructed" - About time too as it was on that premiss that she was originally shifted from Glasgow all those years ago. I agree with Charlie, one or both should be restored to full sailing condition. Norway, population just around 4.6 million have three full rigged sail training ships, Christian Radich (Clipper); Sorland (Clipper) and Stadsrad Lehmkhul (Jammer). They are of tremedous value to youth groups, are a terrific tourist attraction and are a terrific advertisement for a sea-going nation.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 21 May 07 - 11:23 AM

The key is that they are training ships for a viable merchant marine. Static displays are all very well for museums but, in the US, the powers that be have degraded our merchant marine to the point that almost all merchant vessels visiting the US use flags of convenience which allow lower pay for the crews as well as lower standards of safety equipment.

It is the Wal-Martization of our industries. I suspect that GB has the same issues.

Eagle is maintained by the Coast Guard. The Navy has a collection of racing yachts. Some of the maritime colleges in the US have ships [not sailing vessels] which are used to train their cadets in sea-going skills.

Rose is/was a member of ASTA. She was sold to be Jack Aubrey's frigate Surprise and is now a static exhibit.

When Wavertree was restored to sailing condition for OpSail 2000, she was not allowed to sail, even with a picked crew. Even so, she looked grand sitting in Atlantic Basin.

Regrettably, Cutty Sark, even restored, will sit in her basin deteriorating and being restored for people to dream on. She should be going to sea to train cadets and acting as an ambassador.

If you don't risk it you don't have it.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 May 07 - 11:45 AM

Teribus, the UK has a number of Sail Training Ships - STS Stavros S. Niarchos, STS Prince William (Brigs owned by the STA), STS Lord Nelson and STS Tenacity (owned by the Jubilee Sailing Trust) to name but four. Not historic ships, I grant you, but they fulfil the same purpose.


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Subject: The Cutty Sark has Burned
From: DonMeixner
Date: 21 May 07 - 11:57 AM

I just caught wind of this. Does anyone have the news on this awful event? Is it damaged beyond repair? Any lives lost?

Don.


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Subject: RE: The Cutty Sark has Burned
From: skipy
Date: 21 May 07 - 11:59 AM

no one hurt or killed. there are 2 other threads on this that might bring you up to date.
Skipy


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Subject: RE: The Cutty Sark has Burned
From: s&r
Date: 21 May 07 - 12:00 PM

Much of the planking coach house and artefacts are away for restoration. Arnold Spokesman said the complete restoration was possible.

Stu


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Teribus
Date: 21 May 07 - 12:00 PM

Granted Backwoodsman - "Cutty Sark" and "Carrick" would be absolutely marvellous additions to their number and just through size and history more effective.


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Subject: RE: The Cutty Sark has Burned
From: GUEST,Matelot
Date: 21 May 07 - 12:05 PM

It certainly looks a mess though it was heavily stripped down for restoration at the time - rigging/masts off, etc. It is also steel framed though there is a danger that this could have been warped by the heat. Keep fingers crossed.


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Subject: RE: The Cutty Sark has Burned
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 07 - 12:09 PM

Probably caused by one of those pipe smoking chantymen they bring in to add "charactor."


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: SussexCarole
Date: 21 May 07 - 01:14 PM

Clouds & Silver linings? - yes Teribus I agree with you. Thankfully so much of the Cutty Sark's original fabric was spared from the blaze. We have lost so much of the handiwork of men generations before us....but it leaves open the chance for our generation of skilled craftsmen to tread in their footsteps and have a chance to re-build rather than restore this ship. Dry dock is a sad place - hopefully, after a rebuild, the Cutty Sark's future will be in open water.


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Subject: RE: The Cutty Sark has Burned
From: DonMeixner
Date: 21 May 07 - 01:22 PM

Thanks, I didn't see the other threads.

Don


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Micca
Date: 21 May 07 - 01:48 PM

On the question of her going to sea again?, I doubt very much if you could scrape together a crew that could safely sail a ship of Cutty Sarks complexity and rig, the skills required, both in Officering and crewing such a ship just do not exist in the UK (or maybe even in the world) anymore, as to sailing her at 17 knots home from Foochow and the Yangtse, Well, I say.. Dream on! ( as I do) I would LOVE to see the venerable old Lady Under a full spread of canavas running in front a force 6 Sout-Wester up the Channel!!


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 02:09 PM

Beautiful old gal she was--and will be again.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Micca
Date: 21 May 07 - 02:30 PM

Nice painting Peace but the reality of what she was recently Cutty Sark


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 02:40 PM

Aye, but there has to be a beauty within her. That's what will return.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Schantieman
Date: 21 May 07 - 02:45 PM

Let's hope shge can indeed be repaired and restored.   Well, there's little doubt it's possible - it's just the dosh that's the problem. maybe we could make do with our current SSBNs instead of replacing them? Or sack a prime minister or two....?

S


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Micca
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:00 PM

The last 3 pix on the link above were taken by Cobble yeaterday afternoon and you can see some of how much had been removed for conservation


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:29 PM

Back in the mid-80s, a picture of a throng of runners passing the Cutty Sark appeared in a national running magazine accompanying an article on the London Marathon. Hardly had the mag hit the newstands before I was receiving phone calls telling me that I was right in the middle of the photo. I look quite fresh and sprightly but that was only at the 8 mile mark - with 18 miles still to run!


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Teribus
Date: 21 May 07 - 04:12 PM

The original build of the "Cutty Sark" bankrupted the Yard that built her, because the spec was so high, a great deal of special work went into her construction.

For all that she never beat the ship she was designed to beat - "Thermopylae" - An extreme composite clipper ship designed by Bernard Waymouth of London and build in 1868 by Walter Hood & Co., Aberdeen for the White Star Line (George Thompson & Co.), Aberdeen.

Under the command of Captain Robert Kemball, late of the "Yang-Tsze". On the 8th November 1868, the "Thermopylae" sailed on her maiden voyage from Gravesend to Hobson's Bay, Melbourne, in 63 days. The fastest passage on record.


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Subject: RE: The Cutty Sark has Burned
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 May 07 - 04:13 PM

Can we combine this with the others please?

LTS


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Subject: RE: The Cutty Sark has Burned
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 May 07 - 04:13 PM

And below decks as it were??

LTS


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Subject: RE: The Cutty Sark has Burned
From: Ernest
Date: 21 May 07 - 04:16 PM

Fire down below?

E.


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Subject: RE: The Cutty Sark has Burned
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 May 07 - 04:23 PM

Yes, but the ointment has helped tremendously....

LTS


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:03 PM

There is no such thing as 'original state' This applies to songs/tunes/ships/wood etc...


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: BusyBee Paul
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:09 PM

As to what happens now - we'd love to know. Where I work, we got a large order last Friday for items to be used to restore her - that order is now on hold, or in the words of the company who placed the order "Belayed"!

Not a great start to a Monday morning.......

Deirdre


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Rowan
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:14 PM

You may be correct Teribus, but I seem to recall a recent program on Oz telly which asserted Cutty Sark had the fastest passage from Lands End to Sydney (~63 days?). She also had the fastest return, in the last head-to-head race with Thermoplylae, which went via the Horn. Sydney - Horn, 23 days; Horn - London, 50 days.

I suspect there will be quite a push to raise funds for restoration and, should anyone be interested in suggesting possible names for the campaign, I'll offer
"Give your shirt for the Cutty Sark!"

Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:33 PM

One of the many delights of my trip to England was the chance to see the Cutty Sark. It was such a treat to find it right there in London, easy for all to see. I was disappointed to see it surrounded by concrete sidewalk. I hope it has a more fitting display when it is rebuilt.
Has it been much of a venue for chantey sings and other events, or it that kind of use just occasional?
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:41 PM

From what I just read it seems that she's not never as bad off as earlier thought. The iron fram has not warped & the timbers below only seemed to be charred. They're now saying the restoration is a deffinitly possiblity. I'd also think that the world wide coverage of this will drum up much support & money.

It's be great to see as many as of the restoration projects as posible be made fit to put to sea but as far as this one I doubt it. It is the only example of an extreme clipper left in the world, like EBarnacal I love to see it take the risk but usually thecaretakers unless they're an adventerous bunch normally don't see it that way.
Micca, I disagree with you about being able to find a crew to sail her. If see were to sail I'd bet it would take a New York minute to put together a crew big enough & with enough knowledge to sail her proper. If only,,,,,,,,

Barry


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 May 07 - 09:38 PM

I agree with much of what has been said of the maritime museum sailing ships in the States. They do not sail these ships, and that's a net loss. Other countries do a much better job, train young people to sail them, and give them something to dream about for the rest of their lives.

I say if the folks who raised the sailing barque James Craig from her grave in a Tasmanian mudflats can mobilize the funds to restore her and sail her, that folks in England can do the same or even better!

We should do more in the States as well. The Constitution is towed out for an annual turn-around. The Constellation in Baltimore was completely restored but doesn't sail. The Charles W. Morgan and the Joseph Conrad rot and rust respectively at their berths at Mystic. Wavertree and Peking do the same at South Street Seaport in New York City. The National Maritime Museum in San Francisco maintain their ships but do not sail them. And the Star of Indiarusts away in San Diego.

When I want to get really depressed, I think about all the big 4, 5, and even 6-masted schooners we built and sailed from Maine and not one of them is left, even to walk on. We do have our smaller windjammers that we still take tourists out on for a day or a week but our day of sailing the big ones is gone forever.

Rebuild the Cutty Sark and advertise for a crew of trainers and students, and you will be amazed at the number of applicants.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 07 - 10:07 PM

What of the Margaret Todd, Charles? 151 feet of four-masted
schooner, sailing daily out of Bar Harbor?

There's talk of sailing the now-restored and seaworthy CA Thayer
in San Francisco. Schooners make find sail-training craft, with
much less risk of life-and-limb to young people in this litigious
age than square riggers. Especially when they're bald-headed, as
the Thayer turns out to be.

Lets not forget shall we, the litany of 'lost at...' and 'lost in...'
and 'wrecked on...' and consider that we have less than 1 percent
of the 'original fabric' these days. There were so many losses
which were unavoidable...caused by the vagaries of nature. Hell,
when the liberty ship Jeremiah O'Brien cruises about, you'll see
a Crowley tug next to her, on station, just in case...

And I beg to differ--- the Morgan does not 'rust and rot' it is
in fact scheduled for a multi-year haul-out and restoration at
Mystic quite soon. The 'Conrad' is in fact NOT a vintage or
historic vessel, having been purpose-built as a sail-trainer well
after the great age of sail, much like the USCG Barque "Eagle."
It is in fact questionable of whether she is truly worthy of
preservation, but her use as a demonstration vessel and dormitory
tips the scales. But she's no 'Cutty Sark' nor 'Charles W. Morgan'
in the scheme of history.

Sail training is a great builder of characters, but ought to be
carried out in other than historic artifacts. As well as with
due consideration to modern considerations of safety of life and
limb. I'd not send a child of mine to work in an industrial-revolution
cotton mill--- nor should anyone send theirs to risk their bodies as
18th or 19th-century sailors did theirs.

When we sing their songs, we recognize that they experienced what no
person should have had to; they were driven by poverty. To be driven
by a false sense of bravado to risk life, limb, and artifact is
foolish.

That's the (one) redeeming feature of the Amistad. Replica though
she is, she has an engine to get her off reefs, and proper modern
safety gear to keep her crew in one piece.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 May 07 - 10:54 PM

Miccadarlin'...I still say the US Coast Guard could provide a crew. Take a look at their training ship, The Eagle. It says she gets up to 16 knots, etc.! Lovely pix of the Cutty Sark.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 07 - 11:21 PM

"I still say the US Coast Guard could provide a crew."

Uh, no.

Still, read 'Eagle Seamanship.' Not a bad read, all in all.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 22 May 07 - 03:52 AM

For the Cutty Sark to put to sea these days, she would have to have an engine fitted, modern lifeboats, electric pumps, GPS, radar, wireless, etc etc, all sorts of things which would detract from her as a historic vessel - otherwise no insurance company would touch her - she wouldn't be allowed to manouvere in harbour without an engine - and no risk assessor would be able to let it happen.

She would be subject to all the modern Board of Trade restrictions.

It would be a nice thing to see but there's only the one of her - and we wouldn't want to see her smashed up on rocks with loss of life, now, would we.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 22 May 07 - 03:58 AM

Just a passing point.
I seem to remember that there is more original material in the Mary Rose than in the Victory! If this is the case there should be no problem in restoring an authentic Cutty Sark.

Andy


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: guitar
Date: 22 May 07 - 05:23 AM

In Irvine just down the road from me is a ship called the carrick and it's the only clipper left in britan now that the cutty sark is gone. that is Irvine Scotland, however the is no fund raising site for it because it is Scottish, mnid you so was the cutty sark because it was Clyde built, but ended up in London, London getting it again


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: fisheye
Date: 22 May 07 - 05:47 AM

if she was not insured, I believe there would be a few questions asked.
We have heard some statements that the government has supplied some of the funding for the restoration. So they should, 5 million tourists have climbed her decks. just imagine how much VAT they have paid for their presents from the UK.
I can remember as a kid watching her being towed down the Thames to Greenwich.So like many other historical monuments, 'Sod the money restore her'.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 22 May 07 - 06:10 AM

Will someone be singing

"We hope the Cutty Sark will rise again"

Someone else can do the rest of the paraprase. Or maybe not.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 22 May 07 - 06:17 AM

I was very sad to hear about the fire on the 'Cutty Sark'. I used to play in a cajun band called Ti-Fer and about 10 years ago we were booked to play on the Cutty Sark for a party. Beautiful ship and a great place to play a gig - all that lovely wood.

I hope they manage to restore it. Looks like it will take a while, though. Maybe they could divert some of the money from the Olympics?


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,edthefolkie
Date: 22 May 07 - 07:35 AM

I'm sure the Cutty Sark will be restored in spite of the damage. She is too much of a national icon to scrap.

Good point re the Carrick clipper though by Guitar & others. I had never heard of her until yesterday - just seen a photo of her on the BBC website - WHAT a mess! I notice there is no mention of her on the Scottish Maritime Museum Irvine webpage, surprise surprise.

There's a parallel here with other "heritage" areas like old railways. Lots of well meaning people have "preserved" old locos, aircraft, ships etc. since the 1950s with no real idea of the enormous sums involved not just in restoration but in conservation and ongoing expenses.A friend of mine just happens to run a major public railway museum in the UK. There is NEVER enough money - one engine can cost millions to restore. And at least you can stick a steam loco on a low loader and move it - what the **** do you do with something like the Carrick?


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Teribus
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:02 AM

The "Carrick" currently rotting quietly away in Irvine was originally built as "City of Adelaide" and renamed "Carrick", or more correctly HMS Carrick, later in her career when she served as an RNR Drill Ship at Greenock and later in Glasgow as an RNVR Club.

Designed to carry both passengers and cargo between England and Australia. She included first-class and second-class passenger quarters, and the hold could be filled with emigrants if desired. The ship spent many years making annual runs to and from South Australia, playing an important role in the development of the colony; researchers have estimated that 60% of South Australians can trace their origins to passengers on "City of Adelaide", so she is therefore not without some historical significance.

On relative costs £10 million was required to completely restore the "Carrick" (Applications to Government, Scottish Tourist Authority and National Lottery all failed), £25 million was approved to refit the "Cutty Sark". The latter cost will now probably go through the roof as a result of the fire damage.

I think that the shock-wave that has reverberated through the country at the prospect of losing such an attraction as this historic ship dictates through common-sense that we'd be better off if we had at least two of them - A fully reconstructed "Cutty Sark" in Greenwich, London (Major tourist trap) and main port of destination during her working life; and "Carrick" fully reconstructed as "City of Adelaide" located in Sunderland where she was built.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:11 AM

I've also just looked up about The Carrick - great shame - I see that she was built in Sunderland.

Where I live, the salt marshes are full of the skeletal remains of boats and ships, that were clearly just grounded and left ... and left... Occasionally, you will see a row of timbers sticking out of the mudflats - or, rarer, there will be a collapse of turf, which will show the outline of the vessel which was once there. It is quite a thing to see - incredibly sad, but very atmospheric. A graveyard.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Grab
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:16 AM

For the Cutty Sark to put to sea these days, she would have to have an engine fitted, modern lifeboats, electric pumps, GPS, radar, wireless, etc etc, all sorts of things which would detract from her as a historic vessel

How would they detract?

The engine is the main thing, of course. But engines are pretty small (compared to the size of the Cutty Sark as a whole) and don't take much room. You only need a small one for manoevring - it doesn't need to be a serious one for passage-making. Sails would continue to be the primary means of propulsion.

Lifeboats? Not necessarily - liferafts would probably be acceptable, and they pack down small.

And radar, electric pumps, GPS and radio are basically invisible to onlookers, whilst giving a modern level of safety for those onboard.

Is your argument is that if the crew today aren't experiencing the same level of danger as the original crew, then it's detracting from its "historicness"? If so, I'd have to disagree.
As Guest says, this wasn't a matter of choice - they lived (and often died) in those appalling conditions because there wasn't a better way of doing it back then. There's nothing romantic about pumping the bilges manually or running into rocks because you don't know where you are.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:32 AM

Guest 10:07-

You make some good points about the Mystic ships, and the "plans" to rebuild the Morgan (she is badly hogged and needs a new bottom). You're obviously well informed. I do love the Amistad and she is a model of what can be done in this day and age. I do still worry about the Conrad, even if she was purposely designed as a sail training ship in the last years of the great age of sail; some of her plates down below do not look sound. The Conrad did have a working engine and the fact that she is no longer operating as a sail training ship may have more to do with a lack of vision on the part of the Mystic Seaport Board of Directors than the bottom line; when was the last time anyone at the Museum attempted to design a business plan for her maintenance and operation?

"What of the Margaret Todd, Charles? 151 feet of four-masted schooner, sailing daily out of Bar Harbor?" Good point! She looks lovely but she's really a minature 4-master. The classic 4-masters such as the pair that rotted away at Wiscasset were over 200 feet long; that piggy little town was 90 % subsidized from the property taxes related to hosting a nuclear power plant for 30 years and never spent a dime on their maintenance, or commissioned a replica. Maine shipyards still turn out smaller sailing replicas for museums and other enterprises: the revenue cutter Lynx, the Jamestown ships, and windjammer schooners by the dozen.

I don't object to modern upgrades to historic ships or commissioning replicas which include engines and other modern navigational equipment. The replica Endeavor, again in Australia, is a fine standard for other groups around the world to aspire to. I would object to "tailfins" and advertising logo on the sails which while traditional is, dare we say, tacky. Getting the museum ships sailing again should be a priority.

I wonder if the Great Britain in Bristol, UK, will ever make it out to sea again? She does look lovely.

And I'd be very excited if the C. F. Thayer were ever to sail again.

Of course I'm too ancient to do much more than lead a shanty or two to encourage the process.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:57 AM

Graham - that wasn't my point. The point I was making was that these alterations would be made to what is effectively a listed building - and that I think the damage to the fabric of the vessel would be non-essential - simply to allow it to go back to sea. I very much doubt that those charged with 'caring' for the ship would want to risk losing it at sea. As it would be completely irreplaceable, the risk might also be too great for an insurance company.

At the moment, there are two Lancaster Bombers in the whole world, which are still capable of flight. One in the UK and one in Canada. The RAF are flying theirs less and less, these days. Tooo risky.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 22 May 07 - 09:15 AM

There are other issues which would arise, if you began to alter the ship, in order to make her fit to go back to sea - paying crew would expect toilet facilities / showers / modern galley / decent (private) sleeping quarters. I doubt very much if (per capita) short 'voyages' with a relatively small number of paying crew, would bring in the revenue required to keep up her maintenance programme.

Not sure if she would fall within the DDA (Disability Discrimination Act) - if you began to make such alterations, it might well be that the whole vessel might have to be altered to be able to accommodate wheelchair users

... nothing is as simple as it seems

There are already plenty of ways to go to sea in a sailing vessel, which will already have all the necessary acoutrements for safety etc. I see no real reason to, effectively, chop an exceedingly rare surviving ship up to provide another. This vessel should be preserved for future generations - I don't think our desire to say we've sailed on the Cutty Sark is a good enough reason to 'bring her up to date' in the ways which it would require.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,edthefolkie
Date: 22 May 07 - 09:26 AM

Charley, don't think Brunel's "Great Britain" will ever go to sea again. Apart from the vessel's iron plates, which are seriously dodgy, the engines are dummy replicas, as I believe is the propeller. A large hole was cut in one side when she served as a store in the Falklands, and although that's been fixed, I very much doubt whether the repair was seaworthy.

More generally, there seems to be an endless tug of war between people who want to see old machinery in operation, and the conservationists who won't let the things out of their sight. There has been a minor spat in the UK recently about an early locomotive which a museum will not allow to be steamed, or indeed loaned out. I can see both sides - but it seems strange that a lot of the engine is a reconstruction from 1930, and that it was restored again and steamed as recently as 1980 - where's the harm?

Oh well, will now see how my mate with a 1966 Jaguar is progressing with the large pool of filthy oil on his drive!


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: fat B****rd
Date: 22 May 07 - 09:40 AM

Ennyow, someone anonymous has just bunged £100,000.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 May 07 - 10:17 AM

btw,

http://www.carte-postale.com/armada/cutty_sark_race.htm


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 22 May 07 - 10:27 AM

I think the race was named after the whiskey, which was a sponsor for many years - not sure the Tall Ships Race is still sponsored by them, though.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 May 07 - 10:29 AM

Sorry.

I just look at the pictures...


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 22 May 07 - 10:36 AM

Only heard about this yesterday when I got home as I've been away from a tv and news papers for a few days. This is sad news and I am shocked. Hopefully the investigators will find out how this has happened

The Cutty Sark is a beautiful and stunning ship. Paul and I were down there just before Christmas and saw that she had been dismantled so to speak for the restoration. We were down there in March/April too and looked at the plans for the restorations.

I sincerely hope that fundraising happens and the Cutty Sark will be fully restored for future generations.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 May 07 - 11:05 AM

Backwoodsman said:


She's a ship, not a boat. A boat is the thing hanging from the davits on board a ship (or alternatively, it's acceptable to describe a submarine as a boat).


Another exception. On the Great Lakes, the same vessel that's a ship in the Atlantic Ocean is "a boat". Don't ask why; that's just the way it is.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 22 May 07 - 11:46 AM

The original definition of a ship (in the days of sail) was a three-masted vessel, square-rigged on each mast. So Cutty Sark was one of the few vessels in the country that could accurately fit this description. Other vessels were described from their rig (brig, barque, schooner, lugger etc) or sometimes from their hull form (pink or frigate in its merchant ship sense).

Although I would agree that it would be wonderful to see one of these old ships under full sail, it would be foolhardy to say the least. It would be a great risk to a very expensive and irreplacable asset. There are 'replica' sail training ships that look almost the same and we should be content to see those under sail.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 May 07 - 12:05 PM

Maybe they could divert some of the money from the Olympics?

Fat chance of that happening... more likely the opposite - people actually WANT to donate to the Cutty Sark - the £7million shortfall of their restoration fund is just so much small change compared with the £3 Billion the Games are taking.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Rowan
Date: 22 May 07 - 07:09 PM

While I agree that the sight of the Cutty Sark with a bone between her teeth under full sail would be worth paying to see I am a little surprised by the tenor of some of the suggestions comparing such an event with using something like the Endeavour for training sailors. I might be quite wrong but from recollection, ships like Thermopylae and Cutty Sark were as similar to the Endeavour as Formula 1 racers are to Mini Minors.

Clippers required standards of seamanship and team working that take years of hard graft to acquire; such skills are hard won and not gained by the odd month or two per year as a break from running IT departments; even modern labourers don't match the endurance of the sailors on clippers and assembly line workers don't acquire the same level of automatic response to the overall situation, under stress, as those sailors. We may reminisce and dream and romanticise but their bodies and minds were finely tuned by sheer hard work for endless years.

But it is nice to dream.

Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,Chanteyranger
Date: 22 May 07 - 07:52 PM

What a terrible thing to happen, but thank god 50% of the ship was off for restoration. It sounds like there's much hope for a full restoration. If only world opinion about ship preservation would be so positive without an event like this...sigh.

Charley, just one correction on your post. San Francisco Maritime NHP does sail just one of the historic vessels in the collection; the 59-foot scow schooner ALMA, built in 1890 and restored to sailing condition in 1990, she goes out in the bay every Saturday.

Chanteyranger


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:22 PM

That may be why ALMA continues in relatively good condition. She is maintained in working condition.

Charley, I would love to sail a replica Hesper or Luther Little.

Having sailed on a modern square rigger, I know it does not have to be much more difficult to operate than a fore and aft vessel. Much of the "oof" of sailing replica vessels results from a deliberate effort on the part of the owners to replicate the original experience, down to the overweight spars. If Nathaniel Greene Herreschoff were designing today, his boats would have been of modern materials and would have taken advantage of technological changes. His son, LFH, was a prime example of this trend.

The sailing skills transfer from fore and aft to square rig very quickly, especially if you have made the effort to prepare for the transition.

The sea will always be dangerous. That is one of the reasons that cadets are sent out in square riggers. The ability to learn to respect the sea is much greater in a sailing vessel than in a powered vessel.

If you respect your environment, you are more likely to arrive alive than if you simply put your trust in the machinery.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:35 PM

With regard to the difficulty in finding qualified crews for sailing a clipper. I don't think that's an insurmontable problem. The large four-masted barques of the 1930's grain fleets were largely manned with young apprentices with very little sea time. It's true there was a core of experienced officiers and a small number of able bodied sailors to train them. I don't think it would be that difficult to form an experienced core group, just expensive.
But if it's expensive then the organizers need to plan some way to generate income to offset expenses, seek corporate sponsorship or sell film production rights.

It may be that some sailing vessels are too precious to risk at sea but I bet the Cutty Sark would generate a lot of interest. And it would be great to see her sailing once more.

I'm less sure that I'd like to the the Charles W. Morgan sail off for a whaling voyage. I do have some scruples!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 07 - 06:38 AM

At lest the one at Irvine in Scotland is still the original unlke the cutty which isn't.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: The Walrus
Date: 23 May 07 - 11:00 AM

GUEST (23 May 07 - 06:38 AM),

"...At lest the one at Irvine in Scotland is still the original unlke the cutty which isn't..."

That is until the preventative conservation team have to remove all the infested timbers (insect and fungus)which cannot be saved, and then all those timbers which are too degraded to be consolodated in place (possibly removed and conserved seperately as too structurally weak to stand up to loading by the restored structures).
Then there will be all the material added to the existing hulk (as Terribus put it "...The "Carrick" currently rotting quietly away in Irvine ..." - I doubt that she's in a particularly sound condition, let alone having masts stepped), so we can add masts and spars, rigging and fittings.

Now, you were saying about the relative 'originality' of the two ships? - If Carrick/City of Adelaide were to be restored to any accepible standard* she would be no more nor less 'original' than Cutty Sark.

W


* Cutty Sark was restored
Mary Rose was conserved
Just a quick illlustration of the difference, but restoration cannot occur without some degree of conservation (otherwise it becomes something else).


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 23 May 07 - 11:06 AM

There is a schooner here in New Jersey, A.J. Meerwald. When she was rescued from a mudbank, she was carefully documented and dismantled. There were only two small pieces re-usable for her reassembly. She is still considered a restoration. When originally built, in the 1920's she was built of green wood and expected to survive for about 10 years in commercial use. She sails as New Jersey's official tall ship. By the way, cost of restoration with donated labor and services still came in over $1,000,000.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,Chanteyranger
Date: 23 May 07 - 11:36 AM

Not that it's really important to this thread, but for the sake of accuracy on the Alma's history, I was off by one year: built in 1891, not 1890. Good point, EBarnacle, that If a historic vessel is currently sailing, you absolutely have to keep maintenance up.

Micca took me to see the Cutty Sark in '01. What a sight to behold. You can really see why clippers were known as the sleek "greyhounds of the sea."

Chanteyranger


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 07 - 12:36 PM

By Christ you get wome really lonely people that are members of Mudcat, I mean who in the right mind would argue about a bloody ship, because at the end of the day that's what they just bloody ships, they don't bloody move anoracks the lot of you


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 23 May 07 - 01:46 PM

Guest 12.36pm - Love your post. Will agree with several points:

1) You get some really lonely people that are members of Mudcat. Possibly true - and yur problem with that is?

2) Members of Mudcat are all anoraks - very probably true - to a greater or lesser degree. You don't acquire specialist knowledge in, what might be described as specialist subjects without that little name being thrown at you, from time to time.

3) Who in their might minds would argue about ships? Err - lots of people? Sailors, naval architects, maritime historians ... they are all here and they are all ... anoraks.

4) Ships don't move .... now, I confess, you have got me with that one. How do you think stuff is transported from one country to another?

Still what do I know ....


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Greg B
Date: 23 May 07 - 02:49 PM

Ah yes, dear Alma... sailing qualities rather similar to a brownie
pan, schooner rigged. I had the fortune (or misfortune) of sailing
aboard her when she was commanded by a skipper whose experience
was primarily in racing sloops. Not a happy combination, as driving
a scow schooner hard in a short chop can 'dampen' one's spirits,
and driving a volunteer crew hard tends to make them wonder why
they should bother.

After four decades of sailing, I've found that 'work boats' of all
sizes are often more pleasant in the looking at than in the actual
sailing.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 May 07 - 02:59 PM

slight aside- The Maryland Maritime museum ( In St. Michaels, MD) has several skipjacks, and a few years ago was rebuilding the "Lady Katie". They had a apprentice program, with older experienced workers teaching the students about repair and construction of ( relatively small) boats.

"Lady Katie" is a typical skipjack, single masted, flat bottomed, with no engine permitted by law.

http://www.thebluecrab.com/Skipjacks/SJ-Lady_Katie.html


ALL the remaining skipjacks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skipjack_Boat


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 May 07 - 03:28 PM

So, what just happened to my last two posts???


I'll try to reconstruct:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skipjack_Boat

http://www.baydreaming.com/skipjacks.htm
nice photo galleries


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 23 May 07 - 06:10 PM

I'm sorry, Beardedbruce but, I'm not entirely sure what your list of links to images of Chesapeake Bay skipjacks, has to do with the fire on board the Cutty Sark. I'm sue there will be a link, bit I'm just not sure what it is yet.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 23 May 07 - 09:12 PM

There is no question that various hull shapes have various sailing characteristics and that some of them are real dogs. Commercial sailing vessels had various needs, depending upon their trade. ALMA and her ilk were cheaply built cargo vessels who carried goods from point A to point B. Their cargoes were not perishable so there were no time limits.

If you would like to see a more typical reconstruction [not replica] of a commercial vessel, watch Picton Castle during the show "Pirate Master" on CBS. She is not especially weatherly, in the sense of going to windward. Her spars and rig are not modern or lightweight. In many ways she is an anachronism, just as Clearwater and other replicraft are. PC was adapted from a diesel vessel [trawler, I believe] and rigged from scratch into a sailing vessel. She has done at least one circumnavigation, primarily under sail and is apparently seaworthy. I had the distinct pleasure (?) of watching her during a relatively early stage in the modifications while she was at South Street. I did not believe that they would do as well as they have.

If you run into Kari Sullivan, ask her about the first year or two.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 23 May 07 - 09:13 PM

Bruce, I just had the same problem. It took me 3 tries to get the previous post up. EB


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 May 07 - 02:09 PM

I did say "slight aside- " _ I was giving an example of present efforts to keep ( some form of) ship/boat building ( wooden hulls) as an active endeavor, and the conservation efort for these particular boats. And I like skipjacks!


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 24 May 07 - 05:56 PM

Apologies, Bruce - I'd missed that in your post - I didn't mean to sound picky, which I appreciate I did - I was genuinely puzzled but writing my post too quickly to phrase it carefully. Mea Culpa.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 May 07 - 05:57 PM

no problem


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Greg B
Date: 24 May 07 - 06:58 PM

To lighten it up--- answer to Subject: question---

'Who's got the marshmallows?'


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 25 May 07 - 02:55 AM

I like Skipjack too.... better than I like the Cutty Sark anyhoo!

Call me an old cynic but I can hear the words 'insurance job' and 'money raiser' rattling round my head - how fortunate that anything historical, valuable and irreplaceable had already been removed.

OK, I'm sorry it burned, but no-one got hurt and there are much more important things going on in the world to throw money at.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 07 - 11:13 AM

In Irvine there is a clipper called The Carrick, which the Scottish parliment hasn't given any money towards or even got a fund going, and they are going to destroy her I beleive and yet the Cutty Sark burns down and suddenly we'll be asked t ofind the money to restore her.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 May 07 - 11:33 AM

Guest 11:13AM-

The Carrick has already been discussed in this thread. Some guest review a thread before posting. You might consider doing that as well.

Et al:

My apologies to Cutty Sark partisans for expanding the discussion on this thread to the policy question of whether museum ships should be sailed or not. I did not consider such discussion thread drift, and my references to other museum ships was done to provide more context for the discussion. I'll be happy if they just rebuild the Cutty Sark, mount her on a supporting stand, and encase her in glass. She's probably too large and tall to fit into a bottle but wouldn't that be lovely! I'll volunteer to help empty the bottle.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Greg B
Date: 25 May 07 - 11:36 AM

>I'll volunteer to help empty the bottle.

That'd be the biggest piss-up in London history.

Too bad the queen mum wouldn't be around for it!


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 May 07 - 01:02 PM

The museum ships the Brig Carthaginian out of Lahina, Maui & the Star of India out on the West Coast (USA) bot were restorded & sail. Even after OLd Ironside's last restoration she was put to sea under sail. I'm all for it, sign me up.

Barry


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 May 07 - 01:38 PM

Barry-

I believe it's years since the Star of India in San Diego actually sailed, and I believe that was done by the skipper without the prior approval of the trustees. Maybe Amos knows the rest of this interesting story.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 May 07 - 01:44 PM

Barry-

You're correct, as usual, about the Star of India sailing. Here's what I clipped from their very well-designed website at the San Diego Maritime Museum:

Finally, in 1976, the fully restored Star of India put to sea for the first time in fifty years, under the command of Captain Carl Bowman. She sailed beautifully that day, to the applause of half a million of her fans, ashore and afloat. The Star of India now sails at least once a year making her the oldest active ship of any kind in the world. She is sailed and maintained by a volunteer crew that trains year-round, keeping not only the ship but also the skills to sail her alive.

See, these ships can still be sailed!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 May 07 - 02:21 PM

And here's a poem I'd like to dedicate to the charred bones of the Cutty Sark but with the hope that she will rise and sail again from her ashes; it's by old sailor-poet Harry Kemp:

From CHANTEYS AND BALLADS, by Harry Kemp, published by Brentano's, New York, US, © 1920, p. 54.

The Wreck

Seared bone-white by the glare of summer weather,
Cast side-long, on the barren beach she lies,
She who once brought the earth's far ends together
And ransacked East and West for merchandise.

The sea-gulls cluster on her after-deck
Resting from the near seas that wash and fall . . .
But, I have heard, at night this side-cast wreck
(When all the belfry bells at midnight call)

Puts up sail and goes out past mortal seeing:
Once more the oceans break beneath her will
And she resumes the breath of her old being;
She lives the dreams that slumber in her still.

Thrilling as down the windy Dark she slopes,
Ecstatic, as her sails grow great with wind –
She feels the seamen walking with her ropes,
The harbour dropping like a star behind.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 26 May 07 - 10:28 AM

Who needs the Queen Mother to help empty a bottle when there are lots of thirsty Mudcatters around?!

LTS


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 26 May 07 - 12:26 PM

Heresy, rank heresy, insulting the Queen Mum like that! I am sure she could hold her alcohol with the best of them--especially after all those public appearances.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: severed-head
Date: 26 May 07 - 04:42 PM

There will be a special fundraising night for the Cutty Sark Clipper. It takes place Tuesday 5th June at 9.00pm at The Lord Hood pub, 300 Creek Road London SE10 9SW. There's an excellent English Music Session there every Tuesday night but on 5th June it will concentrate on hornpipes and shanties.Should be a great night.
http://www.greentrad.org.uk/


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 May 07 - 05:30 PM

And the powers to be in Liverpool don't believe in the power of shanties.
Good luck with the fundraising.

Barry


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Muttley
Date: 26 May 07 - 09:39 PM

Sorry; coming in late - but reqding through 'Guitar's' first post - basically the Government won't throw a penny at a rebuild so they'll set up a "Public Drive" to raise money for a rebuild/restoration.

Figures!

As for Windsor Castle (which somebody mentioned) - I'm not a Monarchist/Royalist by any stretch of the imagination - I respect a few of them but that's it. So it's a big statement for me to remind folks that hte Queen paid for the restoration of Windsor herself. The Government informed her that Windsor was HER problem and contributed a little but the Queen was required to foot virtually ALL of the restoration costs herself as it was 'HER" castle - not the Government's. So she did. By the way, those tours you can do through Buckingham Palace while the Royal Family is in residence up at Balmoral - - - THOSE were instigated by 'Herself' to fund the Windsor Castle restoration. They've been such a success that they've continued.

Bottom line - and I am obviously NOT a bot person (despite a multi generational (Navy) connection with the sea) - It's a boat! Who cares! The main point is that no-one got hurt - if it was the "HMS Victory" THAT would be tragic.

Muttley


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 27 May 07 - 08:32 PM

Muttley - there already WAS a public drive to raise the £25million rebuild, which last week was £7million short.

That's what makes my cynical little brain think it was an insurance job/publicity scam. Had it caught fire before the expensive and irriplaceable stuff (like the figurehead) been taken away, THAT would have been a tragedy. What was left was pfobably the stuff that was going to be replaced anyway.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Greg B
Date: 27 May 07 - 09:22 PM

Queen Mary, late in life, had a hip replacement.

Apparently she had a new flask fitted at the same time.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: The Walrus
Date: 27 May 07 - 09:34 PM

Liz,

I went on a 'hard-hat' tour of the early stages of the conservation some 12-18 months ago while they were running the early test work
(the assessment of the nature and extent of problems and the preparation of status reports, technique tests, treatment proposals, costings etc).
A number of the conservation techniques proposed did involve inflamable materials or gases (they alvays do), if there was vapour build up, then the problem becomes obvious.
As the conservation work requires a lot of floor area and, with the props, ladders and scaffolding in place, the floor space of the dry dock is minimal, it is not surprising, that the contents of the ship were removed as a first action and that the masts were unstepped.
I'm as cynical as anyone, but I think in this case the accident was genuine.

Walrus


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 08:29 PM

I was wondering if there was any update on the rebuilding project only to find this depressing article: click here for article!

Maybe something will be accomplished by the spring of 2011.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 07:28 AM

Sigh.Will pictures of this icon be only seen on Whiskey bottles?


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,Henryp
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 07:37 AM

There's a documentary on History Channel (UK) 8pm next Tuesday 16 February.

Cutty Sark: Out of the Ashes. 'The old girl's not dead quite yet.'


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 08:58 AM

I've been staring at the photo that comes with the story above and wondering about the caption:

The front of the Cutty Sark is removed as part of an ongoing conservation project in Greenwhich Photo: GETTY

The view looks to me as if it's the stern of the clipper ship (I do have a photo of the stern that I shot a few years ago), not the "front" or pointy part. In the context of the story this may not be an especially important point. But I do hope when they get the ship put back together, that they get the parts fitted back into their proper places.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 01:33 PM

I find the idea of lifting her and placing a visitor center beneath downright scary. She should be restored and maintained. There can be galleries around her. This is not a modern vessel and she does not need a crystal gallery beneath her.

Gilding the lily is fine for modern artists but she is not modern art--she is a classic piece of maritime industrial design.

Would the same people put the Venus de Milo on a high pedestal so they could look up her crotch? Her lines make her beautiful. She was meant to be viewed from her side, not her bottom.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 01:55 PM

"Would the same people put the Venus de Milo on a high pedestal so they could look up her crotch?"

Yes.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 07:59 AM

Henryp-

How was the documentary update?

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 08:16 AM

Yuck! I suppose the 'function room', would be whored/hired out at top whack to business execs wanting to impress foriegn money.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 09:05 AM

If you really wanted to impress you'd book the nearby Painted Hall.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 10:33 AM

Continuation of yesterday's comment: Putting a sailing vessel in the air converts her from a ship to a model. It shows off the "technical virtuosity" of the planners but does very little for the ship.

The vessel is shown at her worst and is structurally devalued from being a ship. Ships, especially sailing ships were meant to be seen from the side or aloft. There is no sadder sight that a vessel's bottom--it means she is helpless. She has been driven ashore or knocked down or, at best, is hove down so her bottom can be worked on.

In these situations, it is sort of like "poor old Uncle Henry who has to be kept out of the public view for his own protection." This takes no account of the needs and intentions of Uncle Henry or, in this case, Cutty Sark which should be out in the world attending to business.

There is a reason that the navies of the world used to sink their noblest vessels, saluting them as they went down. They were allowed to die with dignity rather than being broken up or being stuck in museums. They were respected rather than being fought over by bean counters.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 10:44 AM

When our friends in Oz rebuilt the 19th century barque James Craig, she was moored at the National Maritime Museum, and actually sailed on a regular schedule. What a contrast to the current plans for the Cutty Sark.

Until I read this article I had a lot of respect for the National Maritime Museum at Greenwich.

And the photo caption "front view" is wrong!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 12:46 PM

Who is doing the rebuilding, The three Stooges?


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 12:55 PM

The ambitious restoration plan calls for the ship to be raised eleven feet off the ground, allowing a glassed-over function space to go underneath.

Steel beams, punched through the ship, would hold it in place. Supporters of the scheme say it gives the vessel a modern, "iconic" look.


What moron came up with this idea? The Cutty Sark already has an iconic look - a 19th Century icon. Why would anyone want to try to turn it into a 21st Century one?

Perhaps it's just as well they're running out of money, it might force a re-think.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,Henryp
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 04:54 PM

Charley, the documentary isn't broadcast until 8pm next Tuesday 16 February.

Cutty Sark: Out of the Ashes. 'The old girl's not dead quite yet.'

It's on the History Channel (UK) - I shall have to wait until it appears on good old terrestrial TV.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Bruce D
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 05:37 AM

This will be the second time that the Cutty Sark has been fully restored.

The first was when she was brought back to England from Portugal and privitely restored in the 1920/30. When the Captain Wilfred Dowman died his widow gave the Cutty Sark to The Thames Nautical Training Collage (who already had a 86 Gun "Ship of the Line" HMS Worcester orginally names HMS Frederick William)in 1938.

The Cutty Sark was sailed from the Thames Docks around to the Collage in 1938, officially she was towed using sails to assist, but only in the last 20 odd years has the fact that the Cutty Sark was sailed un-assisted has been recognized.

My father has been acknowledged now as been the last surviving man from the crew of Cadets. He is officially the Last Man to have sailed the Cutty Sark.

Bruce D


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,Henryp
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 07:33 AM

My friend at work, Garth Harper, told me that his elder brother, as a cadet, was one of the crew who sailed the Cutty Sark from Falmouth to Greenhithe.

Garth retired several years ago, and I think his brother was some years older than him.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 12:38 PM

Why not put wheels on it and drive it from town to town as a mobile exhibit?

This Saturday from Noon until 6 PM, see the famous Cutty Sark here in Sainsbury's Car Park! Pirate hats available for the children, who will be piped aboard at 20 minute intervals, given a short tour, then forced to "walk the plank", jumping into a plastic ball pit! A small fee will be charged.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 01:00 PM

It's a bit like people who think that folk music needs to include modern compositions.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 01:11 PM

Another contrast, a positive one, is what the Mystic Seaport Museum here in the States is doing with their classic whaling ship the Charles W. Morgan. She was built way back in the 1840's and last year they hauled her out, propped her up, and are doing a major rebuild of the hull. And the plan is to actually sail her when the job's complete. Now that's vision!

Here's a link to an image of the Charles W. Morgan:
click here for image!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 01:30 PM

what a perfect opportunity to rig out that old pile of charred logs
with huge jumbo jet wings and engines,
or even a full scale Zeppelin style ballon instead of boring old sails..

wow, huge helicopter rotor blades at each end as well would be brilliant..

.. nows time to give that burnt out hulk a good proper "Steam punk" pimping !!!

Then it could be one of the best underground night clubs in London
since Woolwich had that moored up 2nd hand Russian Sub back in the 90's.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 01:31 PM

Prior to the fire Cuttys Hull was in the dry dock . From what I understand from a recent newspaper cutting she will be ready for the 2012 Olympics.
She will be set on a sea of Mirrored glass and surounded by a glass viewing area.
I live in Greenwich and get the Locsl free Greenwich council newspaper,


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 02:48 PM

She'll be featured as "The Largest Ship-in-a-Bottle."

Brilliant!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 03:11 PM

By all accounts the waves will be fashioned of Green glass,
Hence the dry dock will be covered and the surround of the ship
covered in a weather proof observation gallery.

They also are replating her copper hull which should be interesting. Thereby the enterence fee to get on board will have trebled.
Regards Pierre


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Bruce D
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 12:45 AM

......"From: GUEST,Henryp - PM Date: 12 Feb 10 - 07:33 AM
My friend at work, Garth Harper, told me that his elder brother, as a cadet, was one of the crew who sailed the Cutty Sark from Falmouth to Greenhithe. Garth retired several years ago, and I think his brother was some years older than him."...................

If That it the case then my Father must know him and The association of Worcester and Conrad old cadets don't know his where about's. The Association meets quite regularly and even has a Australian & New Zealand sub-branch, I was at their one of their Melbourne meeting a few years ago. Garth's older brother would have to be in his late eighties.

Bruce D


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 10 - 11:41 AM

Bruce D; I'm afraid that I can't take it any further. Garth has now died, and I believe that his brother died before him.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 16 Feb 10 - 06:34 AM

I was talking to a Caretaker in Greenwich and the glass sea I described above is destined to be Bottle Green color with White glass streaks to represent White horses in respect of waves ?
The metal superstructure on the inside of the Cutty Sark that forms the ribs of the ship were in a very bad state in regards to rust prior to the fire now they are warped and rusted because of the heat of the fire so work now is twice harder because some of the ribs forward in the ship have had to be replaced and getting the ribs out is no easy task,I look forward to seeing the completed job?


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 08:21 AM

I'll be doing some research at the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich September 2 and while there I'll also be checking on what progress has been made in rebuilding the clipper ship Cutty Sark.

According to her website about two-thirds of the hull has been rebuilt. Here's a link to some photos: click here for images

Maybe I'll sing a few verses to her from "By the Old Pagoda Anchorage."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 11:52 AM

I did get a chance to stop by the Cutty Sark while I was in the UK last year. There wasn't a whole lot to see at the time as she was still under "wraps" but I later got to view the saloon and masts that thankfully had been removed before the blaze, stored at the Chatham Shipyard.

Now the masts have been re-installed and she will be re-opened to the public next April. It would be appropriate to have some nautical singing at this special event. Is anyone planning that far ahead? Here's the summary from a recent e-mail I received:

"The masts on the Cutty Sark are being raised for the first time since the fire which gutted the famous ship in south-east London in 2007.

A crane has put the foremast in place on the 19th Century tea clipper in Greenwich, while two other masts are due to be added over the weekend.

After several delays in repairing the vessel, it is due to be officially reopened by the Queen in late April."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 10 Dec 11 - 02:10 PM

There is a weekly traditional English tune session five minutes walk away:

http://www.greentrad.org.uk/

They'll have something in mind.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Pistachio
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 06:46 PM

wow, the wonders of Mudcat - thanks for the update Charley. I had an interest in the thread as my Father took my family aboard the Carrick(Adelaide) in the 70s as it was his RNVR (Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve) CLub location, moored, in Glasgow on the Clyde.
Regards Hazel (in Beverley near Hull)


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Dec 11 - 08:39 PM

Jack-

Some nautical tunes certainly would be appropriate. But there should also be some rousing shanties. Who would be in the area to lead some shanties?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble, based in Maine


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 01:46 PM

The obvious person is Chris Roche; see the Shanty Crew site.

I assume this notice dates from before the fire; The Shanty Crew can be found aboard the old tea clipper 'Cutty Sark' at Greenwich, London, on the second Sunday of every month. We can rightly say that we are proud to be the only shanty group anywhere in the world to have a regular gig aboard a tea clipper. Call the ship for details on +44 208 858 3445.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 03:27 PM

We fetched up in Greenwich the other weekend after a London gig - just for an hour on a Sunday morning & had a wander before heading to Subway for breakfast then on to Whipsnade Zoo. Saw Cutty Sark as we wandered around the Nautical College by the river but was unaware of the fire. Fascinating thread...


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Dec 11 - 04:31 PM

Great news about the restoration!


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Feb 12 - 05:35 AM

BBC video report of restoration.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16842625


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 03 Feb 12 - 07:20 AM

Thanks, Keith.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 03 Feb 12 - 10:51 PM

Lovely, that!


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 02:45 AM

There was a documentary about the restoration on BBC2 last night. It has been lifted off it's keel and is covered by a glass canopy now. It's due to open to the public this spring.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 03:17 AM

I spend a lot of time last night on the Cutty Sark website looking at the restoration pics - what a masterpiece, I look forward to hearing about the opening & the first shanty sing there

sandra


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 03:27 AM

It appears to me that the ship is much higher than it was when I saw it several years ago. When I saw it back then, it seemed to be wallowing in concrete. Is it in the same location, or has it been moved to a new site? From the photos, it appears to be more-or-less the same location.

Can somebody who has seen it recently, give us a description of how it will be displayed, as opposed to how it looked before the fire?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 03:48 AM

It's in the same location but has been resting on it's keel for the last 50 years, which it wasn't designed to do. They have repaired the dry dock, which was found to be crumbling, and jacked up the ship by 9 metres to stand proud of the dock.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Kampervan
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 06:06 AM

They've raised her up so that there's access underneath her, and built a glass canopy all round her at the same height as the water level would be if she were afloat.

So as you look at her she now seems to float in a sea of glass and there will be a visitor centre beneath the glass canopy so that you can see the whole of the hull.

When she sat on her keel she weas collapsing under her own weight, ships are made to float, not sit on the bottom! So now she's been reinforced and is supported around her waist so the risk of long term damage is greatly reduced.

It's going to be a wonderful sight when it's finished.

K/van


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Greg B
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 08:29 AM

Are they going to make access to go aboard a proper gangway to deck level rather than the hideous door cut right through her hull that was there before?


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: bradfordian
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 09:08 AM

The program "Cutty Sark: National Treasure" is shown again TODAY (Sat)20:00GMT on BBC2-Wales ONLY.
Anyone in Wales with a recorder?
It is also available to UK residents for next 6 days on BBC Iplayer


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 09:13 AM

I do hope they revive the traditional sea music program in association with this ship's restoration.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: bradfordian
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 09:38 AM

Article here

Anyone at Shanty UK been invited????


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: bradfordian
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 04:37 PM

I have just watched the documentary on the restoration. Fascinating! Do watch it on iplayer before the week is out! Some interestng archive film in there. Great she survived the fire. And £50million for the restortion. That's only £1million over the next 50 years. Wonder if that money would have been available if we did not have the British lottery. What price heritage though, eh? I think they did the right thing.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 04 Feb 12 - 07:21 PM

We watched the documentary the other evening. It was wonderful to see the restoration. We're going to visit with the kids when she's open to the public in the spring!


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 08:48 AM

Slide show of the the restoration and finished job.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17818532


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 08:52 AM

And, a video report here.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17819755


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Apr 12 - 09:37 AM

Keith-

She certainly looks wicked sharp!

Thanks for the links.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 03:06 AM

I had you in mind when I posted Charlie.
Here she is with her rigging manned for the Queen.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/visualfield/6966116510/


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 08:03 AM

Keith-

That's really nice to see as well.

I note that they are standing on the footropes rather than the yards themselves. I suppose insurance wouldn't cover them if they had done the latter. I certainly wouldn't have done it without a parachute.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 27 Apr 12 - 11:00 AM

Foot-ropes were the norm in the British Royal Navy / Merchant Navy for handing sails aloft.

No-one in their right mind would stand on top of the yards especially at sea. Although having said that you might see it when crew dress a ship during a parade of sail at a tall ships gathering. But that is showing off, and safety lines are always used for clipping on to.

But I always remember that great sequence in the first series of the recent Hornblower t.v. films. The Brits had raided and invaded a French ship and fought of the 'frogs.' Then Hornblower climbed up the ratlines to get to one of the yards in order to hand the sail, he stepped onto where the footlines should have been, and suddenly discovered that the French rigging of the day did not have footropes (or the French had removed them). Anyway he fell into the ocean and was saved by of of his watch.

CJB


.. the   re


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: beachcomber
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 11:06 AM

I had the great delight of going aboard "Cutty Sark" way back in the early sixties, but I don't remember any door cut through her hull for admission ? I will never forget the sight of her as we approached, dry dock notwithstanding, her towering masts and yards all fully rigged. They had huge bales replicated and stacked down below , to simulate cargo but there was little or no "interpretation" to be seen anywhere.
I suppose that the sailing ship as epitomised by "Cutty Sark" , must have been , by far, the most beautiful and romantic method ever devised by man for the transportation of goods.
Yes I know that it meant hardships that are unknown today and would be intolerable but the sight of a ship, of any sailing rig , fully canvassed and with a fair wind must have been wonderful.
The tall ships race came here a few years ago and the ships were indeed awesome but it was "overload". One ship, sailing past, close enough initially to hear the sounds of her passage and eventually disappearing over a deserted horizon, that is how I would want to see such a vessel.
An old man told me, when I was a youngster that a neighbour of his came home from the US by sailing ship one time.The neighbour told him that on the second day out of New York, in a gale of wind, they saw a steamship on the horizon ahead. It too was bound for Ireland but they overhauled it and by sundown it had vanished again, left hull down behind them.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 02:54 PM

Here is a mast being manned as Charlie would have approved.
They are boys at the Ganges training establishment.
My mother's brother was there leaving early to serve in WW2 aged 16.
Boys sometimes fell and died.
http://www.hmsgangestoterror.org/shotley/hmsganges.htm


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 03:54 PM

Keith-

Yes, that the way that real men man the yards. I've got a couple of photos in my nautical archives of the sailors manning the yards like that on real ships in review.

I don't recommend the practice in general but in battle situations 19th century sailors would sometimes run out to the yard end to do some critical piece of work.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,Charles Macfarlane
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 03:54 PM

> Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
> From: GUEST,CJB
> Date: 27 Apr 12 - 11:00 AM
>
> But I always remember that great sequence in the first
> series of the recent Hornblower t.v. films. The Brits had
> raided and invaded a French ship and fought of the
> 'frogs.' Then Hornblower climbed up the ratlines to get to
> one of the yards in order to hand the sail, he stepped
> onto where the footlines should have been, and suddenly
> discovered that the French rigging of the day did not have
> footropes (or the French had removed them). Anyway he fell
> into the ocean and was saved by of of his watch.
>
> CJB

I'm sorry to have to say it, but both the film starring Gregory Peck and the TV series of Hornblower are crap compared with the original books. I've been a C S Forrester fan all my life, and have read most, actually I think all, of the Hornblower books at least twice.

The thing that is remarkable about the books is their realism. This realism is lost in the TV series because the idiots who make them have watched far too many trashy modern American movies of the one-man-against-a-world-conspiracy type and feel that they have to melodramatise everything.

Thus that sequence of Hornblower finding there were no footropes comes just after or before, I can't remember which, him reencountering the senior midshipman from his previous ship who had made his life a misery, and with whom he'd fought a duel, and who is more intent on revenge on Hornblower than his duty to navy and country. The idea that anybody so junior as a midshipman would dare to disobey orders, let alone attempt to kill a fellow officer in the middle of an engagement, is just not credible.

In the book, "Mr Midshipman Hornblower", what actually happens is that after the duel he leaves behind the ill-fated first ship with its sick captain, and never encounters that midshipman ever again.

When 'cutting-out' the French ship, he feels for the footrope with his feet, and, realising that there's nothing there, and that, although he's scared of heights, there's nothing for it but to walk along the yard, that's what he and his detachment do.

I would recommend anyone who watches the TV series to switch them off, go down to their local library or shop, and read the books instead. They are infinitely more rewarding.

Also, if you want to read the book that probably gave someone the idea for the Sharpe series, read "Death To The French" by the same author.

There was also a rather poor film made of his excellent book "The Gun".


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Apr 12 - 08:45 PM

Here's a link to a vintage print of how sailors who are not wimps should "man the yards": click here for PIX!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 15 May 12 - 11:32 AM

Saturday 19 May BBC2 TV 8.00pm
Cutty Sark: National Treasure Reopened
Documentary about the Cutty Sark and those responsible for bringing her back to life.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Bruce D
Date: 11 Mar 18 - 08:30 PM

Good news for fans of the Cutty Sark, a full scale replica is about to be built.

https://www.facebook.com/cutty.sark.replica

http://cutty-sark.org/

Bruce D


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Mar 18 - 11:09 PM

Micca took me to see the Cutty Sark in 2002, and I see above that he took Chanteyranger there in 2001. Good thing we have people like Micca to enlighten us Californians. If I had been traveling on my own, I might have missed it - and it was one of the most memorable sights of London for me.
Is it now fully back in its glory?

Thanks for letting us know about the replica, Bruce.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 04:08 AM

The Scottish fiddler Carol Anderson was working on it a while back - something to do with the rigging, I think - and for all I know still is. So if you see her there, ask where you can hear her playing, you won't regret it.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: DaveRo
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 04:19 AM

Is it now fully back in its glory?
It's back, but I don't know anyone who thinks it looks better now that they've built a curved glass building over the dry dock, which contains an exhibition centre. From a distance it looks like it's sitting on a cushion. You can't see the whole ship any more.

Cutty Sark wins Carbuncle Cup 2012/

I would advise people who haven't seen Cutty Sark to wait 'til they restore it again.

Meanwhile, there are more interesting and impressive preserved ships - H.M.S. Warrior in Portsmouth is my favourite.




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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 09:04 AM

Great to see the restored Cutty Sark at Greenwich and also reports on the progress with regard to the City of Adelaide/Carrick which has now been rescued from the hands of the Scottish Maritime Museum and transported to Adelaide where she will be restored to sailing condition - massive job - good luck to them.


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Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 12 Mar 18 - 10:35 AM

The tea chests on board the Cutty Sark can be removed to reveal the Michael Edwards Studio Theatre, seating 85 people.

You can celebrate St Patrick's Day there with a traditional Irish ceilidh on Saturday 17 March 2018.

And there's another performance space - the Sammy Ofer gallery - in the dry dock underneath the hull of the Cutty Sark.


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