Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: SussexCarole
Date: 21 May 07 - 01:14 PM

Clouds & Silver linings? - yes Teribus I agree with you. Thankfully so much of the Cutty Sark's original fabric was spared from the blaze. We have lost so much of the handiwork of men generations before us....but it leaves open the chance for our generation of skilled craftsmen to tread in their footsteps and have a chance to re-build rather than restore this ship. Dry dock is a sad place - hopefully, after a rebuild, the Cutty Sark's future will be in open water.

Subject: RE: The Cutty Sark has Burned
From: DonMeixner
Date: 21 May 07 - 01:22 PM

Thanks, I didn't see the other threads.

Don

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Micca
Date: 21 May 07 - 01:48 PM

On the question of her going to sea again?, I doubt very much if you could scrape together a crew that could safely sail a ship of Cutty Sarks complexity and rig, the skills required, both in Officering and crewing such a ship just do not exist in the UK (or maybe even in the world) anymore, as to sailing her at 17 knots home from Foochow and the Yangtse, Well, I say.. Dream on! ( as I do) I would LOVE to see the venerable old Lady Under a full spread of canavas running in front a force 6 Sout-Wester up the Channel!!

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 02:09 PM

Beautiful old gal she was--and will be again.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Micca
Date: 21 May 07 - 02:30 PM

Nice painting Peace but the reality of what she was recently Cutty Sark

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Peace
Date: 21 May 07 - 02:40 PM

Aye, but there has to be a beauty within her. That's what will return.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Schantieman
Date: 21 May 07 - 02:45 PM

Let's hope shge can indeed be repaired and restored.   Well, there's little doubt it's possible - it's just the dosh that's the problem. maybe we could make do with our current SSBNs instead of replacing them? Or sack a prime minister or two....?

S

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Micca
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:00 PM

The last 3 pix on the link above were taken by Cobble yeaterday afternoon and you can see some of how much had been removed for conservation

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 21 May 07 - 03:29 PM

Back in the mid-80s, a picture of a throng of runners passing the Cutty Sark appeared in a national running magazine accompanying an article on the London Marathon. Hardly had the mag hit the newstands before I was receiving phone calls telling me that I was right in the middle of the photo. I look quite fresh and sprightly but that was only at the 8 mile mark - with 18 miles still to run!

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Teribus
Date: 21 May 07 - 04:12 PM

The original build of the "Cutty Sark" bankrupted the Yard that built her, because the spec was so high, a great deal of special work went into her construction.

For all that she never beat the ship she was designed to beat - "Thermopylae" - An extreme composite clipper ship designed by Bernard Waymouth of London and build in 1868 by Walter Hood & Co., Aberdeen for the White Star Line (George Thompson & Co.), Aberdeen.

Under the command of Captain Robert Kemball, late of the "Yang-Tsze". On the 8th November 1868, the "Thermopylae" sailed on her maiden voyage from Gravesend to Hobson's Bay, Melbourne, in 63 days. The fastest passage on record.

Subject: RE: The Cutty Sark has Burned
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 May 07 - 04:13 PM

Can we combine this with the others please?

LTS

Subject: RE: The Cutty Sark has Burned
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 May 07 - 04:13 PM

And below decks as it were??

LTS

Subject: RE: The Cutty Sark has Burned
From: Ernest
Date: 21 May 07 - 04:16 PM

Fire down below?

E.

Subject: RE: The Cutty Sark has Burned
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 May 07 - 04:23 PM

Yes, but the ointment has helped tremendously....

LTS

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:03 PM

There is no such thing as 'original state' This applies to songs/tunes/ships/wood etc...

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: BusyBee Paul
Date: 21 May 07 - 05:09 PM

As to what happens now - we'd love to know. Where I work, we got a large order last Friday for items to be used to restore her - that order is now on hold, or in the words of the company who placed the order "Belayed"!

Not a great start to a Monday morning.......

Deirdre

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Rowan
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:14 PM

You may be correct Teribus, but I seem to recall a recent program on Oz telly which asserted Cutty Sark had the fastest passage from Lands End to Sydney (~63 days?). She also had the fastest return, in the last head-to-head race with Thermoplylae, which went via the Horn. Sydney - Horn, 23 days; Horn - London, 50 days.

I suspect there will be quite a push to raise funds for restoration and, should anyone be interested in suggesting possible names for the campaign, I'll offer
"Give your shirt for the Cutty Sark!"

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:33 PM

One of the many delights of my trip to England was the chance to see the Cutty Sark. It was such a treat to find it right there in London, easy for all to see. I was disappointed to see it surrounded by concrete sidewalk. I hope it has a more fitting display when it is rebuilt.
Has it been much of a venue for chantey sings and other events, or it that kind of use just occasional?
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:41 PM

From what I just read it seems that she's not never as bad off as earlier thought. The iron fram has not warped & the timbers below only seemed to be charred. They're now saying the restoration is a deffinitly possiblity. I'd also think that the world wide coverage of this will drum up much support & money.

It's be great to see as many as of the restoration projects as posible be made fit to put to sea but as far as this one I doubt it. It is the only example of an extreme clipper left in the world, like EBarnacal I love to see it take the risk but usually thecaretakers unless they're an adventerous bunch normally don't see it that way.
Micca, I disagree with you about being able to find a crew to sail her. If see were to sail I'd bet it would take a New York minute to put together a crew big enough & with enough knowledge to sail her proper. If only,,,,,,,,

Barry

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 May 07 - 09:38 PM

I agree with much of what has been said of the maritime museum sailing ships in the States. They do not sail these ships, and that's a net loss. Other countries do a much better job, train young people to sail them, and give them something to dream about for the rest of their lives.

I say if the folks who raised the sailing barque James Craig from her grave in a Tasmanian mudflats can mobilize the funds to restore her and sail her, that folks in England can do the same or even better!

We should do more in the States as well. The Constitution is towed out for an annual turn-around. The Constellation in Baltimore was completely restored but doesn't sail. The Charles W. Morgan and the Joseph Conrad rot and rust respectively at their berths at Mystic. Wavertree and Peking do the same at South Street Seaport in New York City. The National Maritime Museum in San Francisco maintain their ships but do not sail them. And the Star of Indiarusts away in San Diego.

When I want to get really depressed, I think about all the big 4, 5, and even 6-masted schooners we built and sailed from Maine and not one of them is left, even to walk on. We do have our smaller windjammers that we still take tourists out on for a day or a week but our day of sailing the big ones is gone forever.

Rebuild the Cutty Sark and advertise for a crew of trainers and students, and you will be amazed at the number of applicants.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 07 - 10:07 PM

What of the Margaret Todd, Charles? 151 feet of four-masted
schooner, sailing daily out of Bar Harbor?

There's talk of sailing the now-restored and seaworthy CA Thayer
in San Francisco. Schooners make find sail-training craft, with
much less risk of life-and-limb to young people in this litigious
age than square riggers. Especially when they're bald-headed, as
the Thayer turns out to be.

Lets not forget shall we, the litany of 'lost at...' and 'lost in...'
and 'wrecked on...' and consider that we have less than 1 percent
of the 'original fabric' these days. There were so many losses
which were unavoidable...caused by the vagaries of nature. Hell,
when the liberty ship Jeremiah O'Brien cruises about, you'll see
a Crowley tug next to her, on station, just in case...

And I beg to differ--- the Morgan does not 'rust and rot' it is
in fact scheduled for a multi-year haul-out and restoration at
Mystic quite soon. The 'Conrad' is in fact NOT a vintage or
historic vessel, having been purpose-built as a sail-trainer well
after the great age of sail, much like the USCG Barque "Eagle."
It is in fact questionable of whether she is truly worthy of
preservation, but her use as a demonstration vessel and dormitory
tips the scales. But she's no 'Cutty Sark' nor 'Charles W. Morgan'
in the scheme of history.

Sail training is a great builder of characters, but ought to be
carried out in other than historic artifacts. As well as with
due consideration to modern considerations of safety of life and
limb. I'd not send a child of mine to work in an industrial-revolution
cotton mill--- nor should anyone send theirs to risk their bodies as
18th or 19th-century sailors did theirs.

When we sing their songs, we recognize that they experienced what no
person should have had to; they were driven by poverty. To be driven
by a false sense of bravado to risk life, limb, and artifact is
foolish.

That's the (one) redeeming feature of the Amistad. Replica though
she is, she has an engine to get her off reefs, and proper modern
safety gear to keep her crew in one piece.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 May 07 - 10:54 PM

Miccadarlin'...I still say the US Coast Guard could provide a crew. Take a look at their training ship, The Eagle. It says she gets up to 16 knots, etc.! Lovely pix of the Cutty Sark.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 07 - 11:21 PM

"I still say the US Coast Guard could provide a crew."

Uh, no.

Still, read 'Eagle Seamanship.' Not a bad read, all in all.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 22 May 07 - 03:52 AM

For the Cutty Sark to put to sea these days, she would have to have an engine fitted, modern lifeboats, electric pumps, GPS, radar, wireless, etc etc, all sorts of things which would detract from her as a historic vessel - otherwise no insurance company would touch her - she wouldn't be allowed to manouvere in harbour without an engine - and no risk assessor would be able to let it happen.

She would be subject to all the modern Board of Trade restrictions.

It would be a nice thing to see but there's only the one of her - and we wouldn't want to see her smashed up on rocks with loss of life, now, would we.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 22 May 07 - 03:58 AM

Just a passing point.
I seem to remember that there is more original material in the Mary Rose than in the Victory! If this is the case there should be no problem in restoring an authentic Cutty Sark.

Andy

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: guitar
Date: 22 May 07 - 05:23 AM

In Irvine just down the road from me is a ship called the carrick and it's the only clipper left in britan now that the cutty sark is gone. that is Irvine Scotland, however the is no fund raising site for it because it is Scottish, mnid you so was the cutty sark because it was Clyde built, but ended up in London, London getting it again

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: fisheye
Date: 22 May 07 - 05:47 AM

if she was not insured, I believe there would be a few questions asked.
We have heard some statements that the government has supplied some of the funding for the restoration. So they should, 5 million tourists have climbed her decks. just imagine how much VAT they have paid for their presents from the UK.
I can remember as a kid watching her being towed down the Thames to Greenwich.So like many other historical monuments, 'Sod the money restore her'.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 22 May 07 - 06:10 AM

Will someone be singing

"We hope the Cutty Sark will rise again"

Someone else can do the rest of the paraprase. Or maybe not.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 22 May 07 - 06:17 AM

I was very sad to hear about the fire on the 'Cutty Sark'. I used to play in a cajun band called Ti-Fer and about 10 years ago we were booked to play on the Cutty Sark for a party. Beautiful ship and a great place to play a gig - all that lovely wood.

I hope they manage to restore it. Looks like it will take a while, though. Maybe they could divert some of the money from the Olympics?

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,edthefolkie
Date: 22 May 07 - 07:35 AM

I'm sure the Cutty Sark will be restored in spite of the damage. She is too much of a national icon to scrap.

Good point re the Carrick clipper though by Guitar & others. I had never heard of her until yesterday - just seen a photo of her on the BBC website - WHAT a mess! I notice there is no mention of her on the Scottish Maritime Museum Irvine webpage, surprise surprise.

There's a parallel here with other "heritage" areas like old railways. Lots of well meaning people have "preserved" old locos, aircraft, ships etc. since the 1950s with no real idea of the enormous sums involved not just in restoration but in conservation and ongoing expenses.A friend of mine just happens to run a major public railway museum in the UK. There is NEVER enough money - one engine can cost millions to restore. And at least you can stick a steam loco on a low loader and move it - what the **** do you do with something like the Carrick?

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Teribus
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:02 AM

The "Carrick" currently rotting quietly away in Irvine was originally built as "City of Adelaide" and renamed "Carrick", or more correctly HMS Carrick, later in her career when she served as an RNR Drill Ship at Greenock and later in Glasgow as an RNVR Club.

Designed to carry both passengers and cargo between England and Australia. She included first-class and second-class passenger quarters, and the hold could be filled with emigrants if desired. The ship spent many years making annual runs to and from South Australia, playing an important role in the development of the colony; researchers have estimated that 60% of South Australians can trace their origins to passengers on "City of Adelaide", so she is therefore not without some historical significance.

On relative costs £10 million was required to completely restore the "Carrick" (Applications to Government, Scottish Tourist Authority and National Lottery all failed), £25 million was approved to refit the "Cutty Sark". The latter cost will now probably go through the roof as a result of the fire damage.

I think that the shock-wave that has reverberated through the country at the prospect of losing such an attraction as this historic ship dictates through common-sense that we'd be better off if we had at least two of them - A fully reconstructed "Cutty Sark" in Greenwich, London (Major tourist trap) and main port of destination during her working life; and "Carrick" fully reconstructed as "City of Adelaide" located in Sunderland where she was built.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:11 AM

I've also just looked up about The Carrick - great shame - I see that she was built in Sunderland.

Where I live, the salt marshes are full of the skeletal remains of boats and ships, that were clearly just grounded and left ... and left... Occasionally, you will see a row of timbers sticking out of the mudflats - or, rarer, there will be a collapse of turf, which will show the outline of the vessel which was once there. It is quite a thing to see - incredibly sad, but very atmospheric. A graveyard.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Grab
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:16 AM

For the Cutty Sark to put to sea these days, she would have to have an engine fitted, modern lifeboats, electric pumps, GPS, radar, wireless, etc etc, all sorts of things which would detract from her as a historic vessel

How would they detract?

The engine is the main thing, of course. But engines are pretty small (compared to the size of the Cutty Sark as a whole) and don't take much room. You only need a small one for manoevring - it doesn't need to be a serious one for passage-making. Sails would continue to be the primary means of propulsion.

Lifeboats? Not necessarily - liferafts would probably be acceptable, and they pack down small.

And radar, electric pumps, GPS and radio are basically invisible to onlookers, whilst giving a modern level of safety for those onboard.

Is your argument is that if the crew today aren't experiencing the same level of danger as the original crew, then it's detracting from its "historicness"? If so, I'd have to disagree.
As Guest says, this wasn't a matter of choice - they lived (and often died) in those appalling conditions because there wasn't a better way of doing it back then. There's nothing romantic about pumping the bilges manually or running into rocks because you don't know where you are.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:32 AM

Guest 10:07-

You make some good points about the Mystic ships, and the "plans" to rebuild the Morgan (she is badly hogged and needs a new bottom). You're obviously well informed. I do love the Amistad and she is a model of what can be done in this day and age. I do still worry about the Conrad, even if she was purposely designed as a sail training ship in the last years of the great age of sail; some of her plates down below do not look sound. The Conrad did have a working engine and the fact that she is no longer operating as a sail training ship may have more to do with a lack of vision on the part of the Mystic Seaport Board of Directors than the bottom line; when was the last time anyone at the Museum attempted to design a business plan for her maintenance and operation?

"What of the Margaret Todd, Charles? 151 feet of four-masted schooner, sailing daily out of Bar Harbor?" Good point! She looks lovely but she's really a minature 4-master. The classic 4-masters such as the pair that rotted away at Wiscasset were over 200 feet long; that piggy little town was 90 % subsidized from the property taxes related to hosting a nuclear power plant for 30 years and never spent a dime on their maintenance, or commissioned a replica. Maine shipyards still turn out smaller sailing replicas for museums and other enterprises: the revenue cutter Lynx, the Jamestown ships, and windjammer schooners by the dozen.

I don't object to modern upgrades to historic ships or commissioning replicas which include engines and other modern navigational equipment. The replica Endeavor, again in Australia, is a fine standard for other groups around the world to aspire to. I would object to "tailfins" and advertising logo on the sails which while traditional is, dare we say, tacky. Getting the museum ships sailing again should be a priority.

I wonder if the Great Britain in Bristol, UK, will ever make it out to sea again? She does look lovely.

And I'd be very excited if the C. F. Thayer were ever to sail again.

Of course I'm too ancient to do much more than lead a shanty or two to encourage the process.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:57 AM

Graham - that wasn't my point. The point I was making was that these alterations would be made to what is effectively a listed building - and that I think the damage to the fabric of the vessel would be non-essential - simply to allow it to go back to sea. I very much doubt that those charged with 'caring' for the ship would want to risk losing it at sea. As it would be completely irreplaceable, the risk might also be too great for an insurance company.

At the moment, there are two Lancaster Bombers in the whole world, which are still capable of flight. One in the UK and one in Canada. The RAF are flying theirs less and less, these days. Tooo risky.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 22 May 07 - 09:15 AM

There are other issues which would arise, if you began to alter the ship, in order to make her fit to go back to sea - paying crew would expect toilet facilities / showers / modern galley / decent (private) sleeping quarters. I doubt very much if (per capita) short 'voyages' with a relatively small number of paying crew, would bring in the revenue required to keep up her maintenance programme.

Not sure if she would fall within the DDA (Disability Discrimination Act) - if you began to make such alterations, it might well be that the whole vessel might have to be altered to be able to accommodate wheelchair users

... nothing is as simple as it seems

There are already plenty of ways to go to sea in a sailing vessel, which will already have all the necessary acoutrements for safety etc. I see no real reason to, effectively, chop an exceedingly rare surviving ship up to provide another. This vessel should be preserved for future generations - I don't think our desire to say we've sailed on the Cutty Sark is a good enough reason to 'bring her up to date' in the ways which it would require.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,edthefolkie
Date: 22 May 07 - 09:26 AM

Charley, don't think Brunel's "Great Britain" will ever go to sea again. Apart from the vessel's iron plates, which are seriously dodgy, the engines are dummy replicas, as I believe is the propeller. A large hole was cut in one side when she served as a store in the Falklands, and although that's been fixed, I very much doubt whether the repair was seaworthy.

More generally, there seems to be an endless tug of war between people who want to see old machinery in operation, and the conservationists who won't let the things out of their sight. There has been a minor spat in the UK recently about an early locomotive which a museum will not allow to be steamed, or indeed loaned out. I can see both sides - but it seems strange that a lot of the engine is a reconstruction from 1930, and that it was restored again and steamed as recently as 1980 - where's the harm?

Oh well, will now see how my mate with a 1966 Jaguar is progressing with the large pool of filthy oil on his drive!

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: fat B****rd
Date: 22 May 07 - 09:40 AM

Ennyow, someone anonymous has just bunged £100,000.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 May 07 - 10:17 AM

btw,

http://www.carte-postale.com/armada/cutty_sark_race.htm

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 22 May 07 - 10:27 AM

I think the race was named after the whiskey, which was a sponsor for many years - not sure the Tall Ships Race is still sponsored by them, though.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 May 07 - 10:29 AM

Sorry.

I just look at the pictures...

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 22 May 07 - 10:36 AM

Only heard about this yesterday when I got home as I've been away from a tv and news papers for a few days. This is sad news and I am shocked. Hopefully the investigators will find out how this has happened

The Cutty Sark is a beautiful and stunning ship. Paul and I were down there just before Christmas and saw that she had been dismantled so to speak for the restoration. We were down there in March/April too and looked at the plans for the restorations.

I sincerely hope that fundraising happens and the Cutty Sark will be fully restored for future generations.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 May 07 - 11:05 AM

Backwoodsman said:


She's a ship, not a boat. A boat is the thing hanging from the davits on board a ship (or alternatively, it's acceptable to describe a submarine as a boat).

Another exception. On the Great Lakes, the same vessel that's a ship in the Atlantic Ocean is "a boat". Don't ask why; that's just the way it is.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 22 May 07 - 11:46 AM

The original definition of a ship (in the days of sail) was a three-masted vessel, square-rigged on each mast. So Cutty Sark was one of the few vessels in the country that could accurately fit this description. Other vessels were described from their rig (brig, barque, schooner, lugger etc) or sometimes from their hull form (pink or frigate in its merchant ship sense).

Although I would agree that it would be wonderful to see one of these old ships under full sail, it would be foolhardy to say the least. It would be a great risk to a very expensive and irreplacable asset. There are 'replica' sail training ships that look almost the same and we should be content to see those under sail.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 May 07 - 12:05 PM

Maybe they could divert some of the money from the Olympics?

Fat chance of that happening... more likely the opposite - people actually WANT to donate to the Cutty Sark - the £7million shortfall of their restoration fund is just so much small change compared with the £3 Billion the Games are taking.

LTS

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Rowan
Date: 22 May 07 - 07:09 PM

While I agree that the sight of the Cutty Sark with a bone between her teeth under full sail would be worth paying to see I am a little surprised by the tenor of some of the suggestions comparing such an event with using something like the Endeavour for training sailors. I might be quite wrong but from recollection, ships like Thermopylae and Cutty Sark were as similar to the Endeavour as Formula 1 racers are to Mini Minors.

Clippers required standards of seamanship and team working that take years of hard graft to acquire; such skills are hard won and not gained by the odd month or two per year as a break from running IT departments; even modern labourers don't match the endurance of the sailors on clippers and assembly line workers don't acquire the same level of automatic response to the overall situation, under stress, as those sailors. We may reminisce and dream and romanticise but their bodies and minds were finely tuned by sheer hard work for endless years.

But it is nice to dream.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST,Chanteyranger
Date: 22 May 07 - 07:52 PM

What a terrible thing to happen, but thank god 50% of the ship was off for restoration. It sounds like there's much hope for a full restoration. If only world opinion about ship preservation would be so positive without an event like this...sigh.

Charley, just one correction on your post. San Francisco Maritime NHP does sail just one of the historic vessels in the collection; the 59-foot scow schooner ALMA, built in 1890 and restored to sailing condition in 1990, she goes out in the bay every Saturday.

Chanteyranger

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:22 PM

That may be why ALMA continues in relatively good condition. She is maintained in working condition.

Charley, I would love to sail a replica Hesper or Luther Little.

Having sailed on a modern square rigger, I know it does not have to be much more difficult to operate than a fore and aft vessel. Much of the "oof" of sailing replica vessels results from a deliberate effort on the part of the owners to replicate the original experience, down to the overweight spars. If Nathaniel Greene Herreschoff were designing today, his boats would have been of modern materials and would have taken advantage of technological changes. His son, LFH, was a prime example of this trend.

The sailing skills transfer from fore and aft to square rig very quickly, especially if you have made the effort to prepare for the transition.

The sea will always be dangerous. That is one of the reasons that cadets are sent out in square riggers. The ability to learn to respect the sea is much greater in a sailing vessel than in a powered vessel.

If you respect your environment, you are more likely to arrive alive than if you simply put your trust in the machinery.

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 May 07 - 08:35 PM

With regard to the difficulty in finding qualified crews for sailing a clipper. I don't think that's an insurmontable problem. The large four-masted barques of the 1930's grain fleets were largely manned with young apprentices with very little sea time. It's true there was a core of experienced officiers and a small number of able bodied sailors to train them. I don't think it would be that difficult to form an experienced core group, just expensive.
But if it's expensive then the organizers need to plan some way to generate income to offset expenses, seek corporate sponsorship or sell film production rights.

It may be that some sailing vessels are too precious to risk at sea but I bet the Cutty Sark would generate a lot of interest. And it would be great to see her sailing once more.

I'm less sure that I'd like to the the Charles W. Morgan sail off for a whaling voyage. I do have some scruples!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Cutty Sark fire: what happens now?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 May 07 - 06:38 AM

At lest the one at Irvine in Scotland is still the original unlke the cutty which isn't.