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BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush

Ron Davies 31 May 07 - 10:13 PM
Ebbie 31 May 07 - 09:13 PM
Don Firth 31 May 07 - 09:03 PM
akenaton 31 May 07 - 08:36 PM
Don Firth 31 May 07 - 07:54 PM
akenaton 31 May 07 - 07:34 PM
Don Firth 31 May 07 - 06:06 PM
GUEST,TIA 31 May 07 - 05:56 PM
akenaton 31 May 07 - 04:58 PM
akenaton 31 May 07 - 04:47 PM
Don Firth 31 May 07 - 04:27 PM
GUEST,TIA 31 May 07 - 04:13 PM
akenaton 31 May 07 - 02:30 PM
Don Firth 30 May 07 - 10:43 PM
Stringsinger 30 May 07 - 05:13 PM
KB in Iowa 30 May 07 - 04:46 PM
akenaton 30 May 07 - 04:31 PM
Don Firth 30 May 07 - 03:03 PM
Ebbie 30 May 07 - 02:59 PM
akenaton 30 May 07 - 02:34 AM
GUEST,Jade 30 May 07 - 12:43 AM
GUEST,282RA 29 May 07 - 11:51 PM
GUEST,TIA 29 May 07 - 10:26 PM
Peace 29 May 07 - 08:18 PM
Peace 29 May 07 - 08:10 PM
Barry Finn 29 May 07 - 08:08 PM
Ebbie 29 May 07 - 08:07 PM
Peace 29 May 07 - 07:32 PM
Ebbie 29 May 07 - 07:29 PM
Peace 29 May 07 - 07:13 PM
akenaton 29 May 07 - 06:47 PM
Ebbie 29 May 07 - 06:14 PM
GUEST,282RA 29 May 07 - 06:06 PM
KB in Iowa 29 May 07 - 05:22 PM
akenaton 29 May 07 - 05:14 PM
Don Firth 29 May 07 - 04:20 PM
akenaton 29 May 07 - 03:13 PM
Ebbie 29 May 07 - 03:03 AM
Ron Davies 28 May 07 - 11:47 PM
Don Firth 28 May 07 - 11:28 PM
GUEST,282RA 28 May 07 - 10:26 PM
Ebbie 28 May 07 - 05:09 PM
GUEST,Jade 28 May 07 - 05:06 PM
akenaton 28 May 07 - 04:59 PM
Don Firth 28 May 07 - 04:44 PM
Don Firth 28 May 07 - 04:21 PM
Ebbie 28 May 07 - 04:00 PM
Barry Finn 28 May 07 - 03:29 PM
akenaton 28 May 07 - 02:07 PM
Ron Davies 28 May 07 - 10:59 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 May 07 - 10:13 PM

Ebbie--I think that's only in Anbar. Do you have more info?




Another development, per the Wall St Journal, is that a Sunni police chief who had been praised by US forces has been arrested for alleged murder, corruption, and crimes against the Iraqi people.

It will be interesting to see if there's actually any evidence supporting these accusations.


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 May 07 - 09:13 PM

Today's news has a development that is hopeful... The Sunnis have risen up against al Quaeda and have asked for coalition help. It would be wonderful if the killing stopped.


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 May 07 - 09:03 PM

Predictable. Knowing full well that nothing is going to change by September, they're already preparing their excuses.

Incidentally, Rep. Jim McDermott (Dem) voted against sending the budget bill on without the time-line. So did Jay Inslee (Dem.), also from Washington State.

As I said. Not all the same!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 07 - 08:36 PM

There ain't nuthin' but bad news Don.

Some day soon that ole giant he's goin' to wake up and the Pubs and Dems are goin to find themselves way out off the political map...


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 May 07 - 07:54 PM

Not true. The Pentagon has other financial resources they can draw on to continue the war with, but they don't want to use them. Cutting off the funds will not end the war right away. Not before September anyway, when the budget bill comes up again.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 07 - 07:34 PM

Don... I am sorry to say this,but the game you seem to be advocating is being played with peoples lives.

If the election of a Democrat administration in 2008 were to signal some great "wind of change" blowing through American politics, them the loss of these Iraqi men women and children as well as the deaths and mutilation of our own young men, might....just might be worth while...But the odds on political change are just too long for me.

Thousands more will be sacrificed to no good purpose....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 May 07 - 06:06 PM

If your are going to adequately represent the American people (actually get the job done, not just posture), you have to use some tactical sense. And, believe me, not everyone knows the war is already lost. There are lots of people out there who believe that it can still be won. Appalling, but true!

By passing the bill, the Democrats have given Bush until September. If things don't improve by then (from Bush's viewpont), the Democrats will have the next election pretty well sewed up.

Checkmate!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 31 May 07 - 05:56 PM

Sadly, even on matters where Americans should be dead certain, they are easily swayed by the demagogues. I am more ashamed of our minute attention span and vast apathy as I am of the President and his party who have learned to exploit these traits...oh wait, Survivor is on, gotta run.


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 07 - 04:58 PM

"If the Democrats had not backed off on the timeline part of the bill, Bush would have been forced to veto it as he said he would. Then Bush would claim that he could have won the war, but since the Democrats denied him the necessary funding, it's their that we lost."

Surely everyone by now...even in the darkest depths of America, realises the war is un-winnable. In fact irretrievably lost.


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 07 - 04:47 PM

I understand the point you are both making, but the Democrats are supposed to be representatives of a large section of the American people.
All polls show a massive popular movement against the war and none of the political parties seem to be reflecting that movement.
Once again the people are being let down by those who should be leading them...as was Cindy Sheehan.
"Lions led by donkeys"

If the Dems were confident of their position regarding their voting record on the war, they would be able to harness that anti- war sentiment ,impeach Bush and bring this madness to a speedy end...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 May 07 - 04:27 PM

If the Democrats had not backed off on the timeline part of the bill, Bush would have been forced to veto it as he said he would. Then Bush would claim that he could have won the war, but since the Democrats denied him the necessary funding, it's their that we lost. And that would be one helluva campaign issue in 2008 (which, I believe, is what TIA just said).

Do you play chess? If so, do you know how to set a trap? And can you recognize a trap when you see it?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 31 May 07 - 04:13 PM

It is a simple question
"Why oh why did the Democrats not leave the ball in Bush's court...?"

And there is a simple, and principled, answer.

A) they could not leave the ball in his court without a veto proof majority which they do not have for another 1.5 years.

B) to do so (only symbolically mind you - see A above) would turn over all of the keys to government to exactly the douche bags who got us into this mess - not just for the next 1.5 years, but for the 4 or maybe 8 or ??? after that as well.

Simple question. Not so simple answer.

I believe that by following this course of action, they have not only left the ball in his court, they have superglued and bolted it to his forehead. Now, he cannot claim that he was not given everything he asked for to "win" the war. It's a shit game we are playing, and people are dying while we play it.


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 31 May 07 - 02:30 PM

Don I believe you are sincere in your views, but the question is a simple one. Why oh why did the Democrats not leave the ball in Bush's court...As Guest 282 ra said right at the beginning of this thread, their actions mean that they will in all probability inherit a war which they massively voted for.
They have also given Bush carte blanche to continue the war into next year. By withdrawing their bill, they make it clear to the world that the representatives of ALL the American people support this madness.
Also, you dont address the continuing slaughter which is being exacerbated by the presence of the invaders....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 May 07 - 10:43 PM

ake, I'm not making "excuses" for anyone, and when it comes to that, I owe no particular allegiance to the Democratic Party.

I do know, personally, two Democrats who are in office:   Jim McDermott, the Congressional Representative from Washington State's Seventh District (which includes Seattle), and Jamie Pedersen, who has just recently been elected to the Washington State House of Representatives. Jamie is young, and very much a fledgling politician, but he's well aware of the statement, "Politicians are like nails. They go in straight, but the usually come out crooked," and he's determined that this isn't going to happen to him. He's solid, and I think he'll make it okay. And Jim McDermott, very progressive, has always been straight with the voters, and has also been a royal pain in the ass to the Bush administration since this whole Iraq war was first planned. The guy is rock solid!

So this crap about all Democrats being nothing but clones of the Republicans is just that:    crap!

I just get sick and tired of people who get their giggles by leaping into the Slough of Despond and whining that "The world is going to Hell and there's nothing anyone can do! Oh, woe! Oh, woe!" Among other things, it provides an excuse for said whiners to do nothing and just sit around wringing their hands. And posting to internet forums.

While all this moaning is going on, I'm out there keeping in touch with politicians, following their voting records, and leaning on them very heavily.

And I don't feel like hanging around this thread and wasting my time to argue with people who have given up and just keep posting variations on the the same old snivels. I prefer to spend my time more productively, such as letting by thoughts be known to folks like McDermott.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 May 07 - 05:13 PM

There were other options for the Dems. They could have insisted on timelines. They could have said "no more money". They could have just said nothing and move on to another issue and let Bush pay for the occupation.

The Dems talk big about what they are going to do. In the meantime, the blood of more US troops, and Iraqi citizens including women and children are on their hands. It could mean 700 more American troops will die including great numbers of Iraqis.

And believe me, the soldiers in the field know what the Dems did. Many feel betrayed.

Shame on those Dems that voted for this appropriation and I don't trust their empty promises because they didn't deliver on what they said they were going to do, represent the will of the people and stop this insane occupation.

Just wait, those Dems will deliver more political bullshit.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 30 May 07 - 04:46 PM

"Is there really no one in the American political system who speaks for the poor?"

In a word, no.

I overstate the case, but not by much. In order to get high enough in the pecking order to be able to get anything done you need to have loads of cash. The poor are not in a position to give you that cash so they have no favors to call in.



I still don't think the Dems could have done much more in this round of the fight. I think this is unfortunate, but there you are. The U.S. is in a serious mess and it will take a lot of time and maneuvering to get out.


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 30 May 07 - 04:31 PM

Come on Don you've been apologising for the Dems as long as I can remember.
Maybe your exit is because you've run out of excuses...:0)

In the UK the parties are being forced to examine how they fund themselves. Blair's "cash for honours" scandal could mean a loss of finance from rich donors
In the future, the amount of money each party is allowed to spend on an election campaign could well be capped.

Is there really no one in the American political system who speaks for the poor?


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 May 07 - 03:03 PM

So long, folks. I think I'll bow out of this discussion.
I'm feeling a great wave of déjà moo*

Don Firth

*The distinct impression that I've heard all this bull before.


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 May 07 - 02:59 PM

Again: What do you propose as your solution?


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 30 May 07 - 02:34 AM

Here in the UK, there is an election in progress to chose a new Deputy leader for the Labour Part. Gordon(Macavity) Brown has already been appointed to take over from Blair as Leader.

There are six candidates for Deputy,all voted for the war and most continue to support the carnage that they instigated.

To see these people wriggle and squirm when interviewed on BBCTV,was one of the most disgusting spectacles I've witnessed for some time.
No one assumed any responsibility, but tried to say "At the time everybody believed there were WMDs", convieniantly forgetting the millions who marched against the war.

The guilty people both here and in the US will never take responsibility, so we will never see justice done, but this episode should teach us something about the nature of politicians.

Too many people on this forum still believe in the "tooth fairy"..Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,Jade
Date: 30 May 07 - 12:43 AM

Seems someone missed the obvious here. The congress CONTROLS THE PURSE STRINGS. The congress FUNDS government actions in the U.S. The congress is under control of the Democrats now. They VOTED to continue the "Republican" wars. The Democrats have NO plan to end the wars. They are going to EXPAND U.S. involvement in wars around the world (poor Darfur, poor Sudan). Wake up. The Democrats and the Republicans both serve big buisiness and big government. They are the two hands of Moe, slapping your Larry face this way and that so you can't get a fix on things.

The elected leaders in Washington have sold out America. They are working AGAINST our interest. They are guilty of treason. They need to be dealt with. I HATE the stinking ChiComs, but they have the right idea on this:

China has stunned observers by announcing that the ex-head of the country's drugs regulatory agency has been sentenced to death, having been found guilty of taking bribes when approving drugs.

Zheng Xiaoyu, former head of the State Food and Drug Administration, has been convicted on charges of taking bribes and dereliction of duty by the Beijing Municipal No. 1 Intermediate People's Court, according to the Xinhua news agency. The court was quoted as saying that "Zheng was supposed to use the power given to him by the state and the people seriously and honestly, but instead he has ignored their vital interests...this has threatened the safety of people's life and health and has caused an extremely bad social impact".

Zheng, 62, who was expelled from the governing Communist Party in March and removed from the SFDA post in June 2005, had been accused of taking bribes totalling more than $830,000. The bribes, which included cash and gifts, came from pharmaceutical companies, notably the Hainan Kongliyuan Group from South China's Hainan Province. He has the right to appeal the decision.

It had been claimed that the latter gave Zheng bribes, which included paintings, in return for SFDA approvals on 277 medicines, more than 100 of which were granted in 2005, and the heads of Hainan Kongliyuan have also been detained for investigation. During his time at the helm of the SFDA, dozens of Chinese died as a result of dangerous drugs and foodstuffs and in 2004, at least 13 babies died of malnutrition in Anhui province after being fed counterfeit milk formula.

The news, and particularly the severity, of the sentencing has taken many by surprise, and is seen as a strong message from China that the corruption which has been rife in the country's healthcare system will no longer be tolerated. The Communist Party investigated 2,755 bribery cases in the health sector in 2006 and almost 700 health staff were sentenced on charges of corruption or punished " according to Party or political disciplines".

Meantime the SFDA has announced plans for a nationwide campaign of drug safety inspections which it will see 90 officials being sent to 15 provinces over the next two weeks.

http://www.pharmatimes.com/WorldNews/Articles/10937-china-execution.aspx?src=WN

Only mass executions can root out the traitors in Washington. Nice, orderly trials, then mete out justice.


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 29 May 07 - 11:51 PM

>>Do you stand up to Bush now on principle, and hand the Whitehouse and Congress to the bloodthirsty Republicans?<<

As long as the war is over, I don't care.


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 29 May 07 - 10:26 PM

It's not so damn simple. Do you stand up to Bush now on principle, and hand the Whitehouse and Congress to the bloodthirsty Republicans? Or do you take the longer view, and take control of the executive and legislative branches in '08, and put a final stop to the madness? It's Sophie's choice. While we play the political game, sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, etc. DIE. Who called for this game? Who sets the rules? Do you opt out of the game on principle, and probably lose? Or do you play the fucking evil game by the rules these jerks have set, and hope for an all-out win in '08? It may be an easy answer for some. But, not for me. And I've got people there. As do many of you I am sure.


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 07 - 08:18 PM

But, they too will throw a few bones.


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 07 - 08:10 PM

In truth, I agree with you, Barry. I have begun to see the Democrats as another facet of the same stuff the Republicans are made from. They will cater to big money interests and screw the 'common' people who voted for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Barry Finn
Date: 29 May 07 - 08:08 PM

I agree, the Dems should've sent him back the bill & told him to veto it if he wanted but he shouldn't gotten his way without a fight, not even a wimper. They laid down on the floor & let him walk on them, in my view.
It's no wonder Cindy threw in the towel. I'm just as sick as she is & I didn't even lose a kid.


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 May 07 - 08:07 PM

No. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 07 - 07:32 PM

Maybe the Dems aren't so bad after all.


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 May 07 - 07:29 PM

Yes.


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Peace
Date: 29 May 07 - 07:13 PM

Would Pelosi become President if both Bush and Cheney were to be impeached?


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 29 May 07 - 06:47 PM

Dont take the piss Ebbie...282ra is right. While these scumbags look after their image, thats the blood and guts of women and children lying in the streets.

And we are all involved in the spilling of that blood.

This is not an exercise in political rhetoric, its really happening and its getting worse...100 Iraqi dead today,10 American kids slaughtered, 5 Brits captured, perhaps to be publicly executed..5 mothers sons..is it any wonder 282ra posts an emotional message.

The time for being cool is long past...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 May 07 - 06:14 PM

Take a deep breath...


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 29 May 07 - 06:06 PM

All this talk of they didn't have the numbers is a lie.

They could have kept on sending Bush the same bill until he either signed it or gave up and brought the troops home--he had to do one or the other because he was running out of time. It was that simple. THEY WERE BEATING HIM!

But then politics entered the picture and doing what was morally correct and what they were voted into office to do went out the window.

All I hear from them is: "I don't want it to look like I don't support the troops." Oh, so you're more concerned with your image than bringing our people home so no more have to die or come back armless or legless or with their faces and fingers melted off.   That's SO brave! SO laudable!

What kind of support are we talking when we give Bush money to keep those guys over there!! If you support them, you declare the war unethical and illegal and YOU BRING THEM HOME!!! And you do it whatever way you can and if that means sending Bush a bill you know he'll veto then so be it. It was Bush running out of time.

Now he has a reprieve and a clap on the back of approval from the democratic Congress. All the while they whine and cry, "I didn't want to give him that money! Boo-hoo-hoo-hoo!" THEN DON'T FUCKING DO IT!!!!!!! What the FUCK?????????? What kind of people are these????

Why were they even bothering with the charade of sending Bush time tables if they had no intention of sticking to it???? What was the point?? To look stupid and spineless in front of the whole fucking world??? Because that is what they accomplished. They certainly got nothing else out of the deal other than their minimum wage hike--boy, they sure showed Bush on that one, didn't they?

They don't even have the balls to do what is inevitable anyway--chalk it up to a loss and bring em home.

I will NOT vote democratic in '08. We may as well have a republican president and Congress. At least I know what to expect from those sons of bitches. At least when they plunge the knife in, it's sticking out of my chest.


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 29 May 07 - 05:22 PM

"It is not a matter of what is possible!"

Are you suggesting that they ought to have done the impossible?


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 29 May 07 - 05:14 PM

It is not a matter of what is possible!...It is lack of will and a good measure of self interest.

These people voted for the war. They would rather see countless thousands die than loose face.
Because they supported the invasion they do not have.... nor do they want the moral high ground.....In short, they don't have the balls to fight Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 May 07 - 04:20 PM

The Democrats gave it a try, but

they did not have the numbers.

There was nothing they could do about that. It's a matter of what is possible. I have already explained that above. Or did you both not read it and sleep through your high school civics classes? There are people here who have no grasp of political realities and if they don't get what they want yesterday, they throw a tantrum and blame those who tried their best for failing because, through no fault of their own, they simply didn't have the votes.

Okay, folks! So you're convinced the Democrats have failed you. What's your glorioous plan? Bloody revolution? That would sure save a lot of lives. . . .

It's not over yet.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 29 May 07 - 03:13 PM

The Dems have at least one thing to be proud of. They have succeeded where Bush failed...In breaking the spirit of a fine woman and mother.

Mrs Sheehan has decided to give up her campaign to bring the troops home from Iraq, saying that Democratic "friends" who promised her support, turned away when attaining a position of power.

Why don't you people take a hard look at your political system. you are being screwed big style.
Democracy really is worth fighting for, forget the Middle East, the battleground is the United States of America...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 May 07 - 03:03 AM

Just listen to yourself, guys. If things are as bad as you think, what is the solution?

If it weren't for people like Don Firth and Ron Davies and a number of others whose judgment I trust I'd be long gone. In more ways than one.


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 May 07 - 11:47 PM

Ake--- "Without them we are free"

Mind translating that into reality?


It certainly is fortunate there's no election in the US right now, since it seems a lot of the "politics must be purified" believers would sit home. And there are probably still enough voters of sentiments close to those of Dickey that--frighteningly enough--Bush would be re-elected.


Sorry, people, politics is still the art of the possible. I mean even the Stones told you--"You can't always get ....

And as I've said before, as far as Iraq is concerned, at this point it's only a question of how much attempted manipulation by Bush the Iraqis can take--where their boiling point is--and therefore when they tell Bush to shove off.

That will tell the tale--what Congress does or doesn't do is basically irrelevant.


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 May 07 - 11:28 PM

Speaking of "backbone."

The first "Backbone Award" given by this organization to a legislator for sticking to his principles was awarded to my Congressional Representative, Jim McDermott, Democrat from Washington State's 7th legislative district.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 28 May 07 - 10:26 PM

>>Ebbie's point is right on.

Don't you folks ever listen to any Demoncrats on various news interview programs? That is, listen to what the Democratic legislators themselves are saying about what they're trying to do and the blocks and frustrations involved?

Apparently not!

Well, they are not giving up. Even if a lot of you folks are.

Don Firth<<

Who says the democrats are giving up?? Not me. I simply believe they have no backbone. That they believe they're still in the game, I'll grant you. But the reality is that they took themselves out of it and now are set to inherit the war if they take the White House--it is all but guaranteed. It's easier for them to inherit the war than it is show enough gumption to defy Bush and put an end to it. They may not have given up but I have--on them.

There really is only one party with one agenda and if there isn't, there might as well be.


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 May 07 - 05:09 PM

Y'all go right ahead and believe anything you want, if it makes you feel better. I would hate to see you feel worse.


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: GUEST,Jade
Date: 28 May 07 - 05:06 PM

Don't you folks recall Ted Kennedy's half dozen dinners at the White House the first couple months of Bush's presidency? After each one Kennedy was smiling just a bit more broadly when he emerged. Now we see why. The neocon Republicans are Trotskyite communists who began taking over that party through stealth in the 1960's. Once Rove and Cheney explained that to Kennedy and told him to be patient, Ted was all smiles. And now, 6.5 years later, the federal government is more than twice as big as it was then (a constant of the Democrats is to expand government), there is mandatory psychological testing of school kids and forced drugging of those who have "problems" (New Freedom Initiative, a Republican act, a Democrat dream), a national I.D. card is coming (Real I.D., a long-sought-after social control device of the Democrats), the borders are wide open and illegals are pouring into the country while Bush says he'll legalize them (a WET DREAM for the Democrats, who want to destroy and the then rebuild social services). I mean, there is NO DIFFERENCE between Dems and Reps at the national level. They are ONE PARTY, and to pretend otherwise is self-delusional. And they all serve the World Bank, period. It IS time for a change, but the change won't be found within the controlled two-party system.


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 28 May 07 - 04:59 PM

Don says, "Listen to the Dem legislators talk of what they are trying to do and the frustrations involved"
But Barry says it better!!    "Where are the leaders with backbone? We vote in politicans that fall down as soon as the 1st blow comes up.
I'm sick & tired of it, I'd love to see an air of change take over his nation & stand it on it's head"

I love it Barry! Thats exactly how I feel about our jobsworth politicians. They are our servants, not we theirs. Without us they are nothing....Without them we are free..Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 May 07 - 04:44 PM

"Demoncrats." That is undoubtedly how Bush regards them.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 May 07 - 04:21 PM

Ebbie's point is right on.

Don't you folks ever listen to any Demoncrats on various news interview programs? That is, listen to what the Democratic legislators themselves are saying about what they're trying to do and the blocks and frustrations involved?

Apparently not!

Well, they are not giving up. Even if a lot of you folks are.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 May 07 - 04:00 PM

In my opinion, you guys are ignoring the obvious points. #1: The Democrats are in the majority - but just barely (51/49). #2: If the president is determined to veto a bill, the Democrats CANNOT get it passed UNLESS enough Republicans join them (There have to be 60 votes to override a veto.) So far, it is the Repubs that are being spineless, shortsighted idiots. But loyal.


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 May 07 - 03:29 PM

Tar pit to quick shit, instead of growing spines which you'd expect of the Dems now that they're in the majority they seem to be having them removed in a time when they need them most. Bush being the lame duck that he is you'd think that his threat of veto would be nothing more that a little brat whisling in the wind, instead the Dems seem to think that there's a roar in his throat that carrys with it a storm. I fear that the liberal party will be no more that the 3 little pigs before the wolf. We live in a time of fairty tales & nightmares. We need much more than a King or a Kennedy, what we need is a revolutionary leader, not one with guns but with balls who thinks & works outside the box. One who'll say to the oil industry, "if you suck a resource from the people's land then you'd better be prepared to pay the people back for it". Some one who'll tell companies like Enron "if you steal the retirements of your workers you'll pay them back for the rest of your life or with you life, you chose". Where are the leaders with backbone? We vote in politicans that fall down as soon as the 1st blow comes up. I'm sick & tired of it, I'd love to see an air of change take over his nation & stand it on it's head. Fast drive a national heath care program into focus rather than the reforms we've been seeing in the past few years that have confused the hell out of folks & made matters worst. Ram a just revised tax system that doens't close the gap between the rich & poor rather than make it wider & benifit those that are supping off the lowwer classes. If it keeps up the way it's going we may end up looking for these reforms at the point of a gun rather than in a peaceful process & that's not gonna be a pleasent ride or site to see. Though that's where we may get our due
impeachments & our war crimes trials for those that are due them.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: akenaton
Date: 28 May 07 - 02:07 PM

Actually Ron, LH has my meaning perfectly.
Sorry if I was a little vague, but all politicians seem "conservative" to me.
Perhaps we need a period of non-political leadership both in the UK and the US. I was reading in todays Times that "Hanoi" Jane Fonda just received a lifetime achievement Palme d'Or at the Cannes Film Festival.
Apparently although surprised by the award, Miss Fonda was visibly moved and made an acceptance speech full of grace and humility, siting her father Henry as an upholder of justice and Democracy.

I have always thought that Hanoi Jane has it in her to inspire the American people and start them out on a new direction.
Could she be Americas "Fidel"?? I would like to think so...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: SHOCKER: Dems Fold to Bush
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 May 07 - 10:59 AM

LH-- Ake was talking about UK Communists being "conservative".   Hence the question about evidence--for UK Communists.

I'm aware of USSR history.   It depends on period of time you are talking about. In 1917 , I suspect neither the Kerensky government nor the Czarists would have considered the Communists conservative.


Point is not very unfamiliar--the danger of generalization.


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