master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 10:25 AM

Bare Bones (1999) on his own Boneshaker label includes several tracks re-recorded from Tony Roses's final Trailer LP Poor Fellows.

I am fortunate enough to have all his work including the three previous Trailer recordings, Young Hunting (1970), Under The Greenwood Tree (1971) and Banks Of The Green Willow (1976). But Tony Rose can't re-record these. He died in 2002.

Mollie Music stocks Bare Bones and will supply by mail order.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Sunny
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 08:49 AM

Why waste time talking about something over which you have no control or rights over. I agree with WFDU go and record the music again it will be new and fresh. You obviously believe there is a market hence you can not loose money so everyone will gain.

Spend your time and energy re-recording but I would caution you to do your homework/research and ensure you will definately have some sales to at least cover your costs.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 08:58 AM

As I wrote in the post immediately above yours, Sunny, Tony Rose cannot re-record any more of his work as it is now five years since he died. His daughter is working on issuing a CD of live recordings from sessions and concerts.

Nor can Lal Waterson who died almost 10 years ago, nor Peter Bellamy whose death was almost 20 years ago. For these artists it's far too late.

It is not, in any case, just about 'making money'.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Sunny
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 09:28 AM

DE I am aware and appreciate the above mentioned artists have unfortunately passed away which is a great shame. But as you say Tony Rose daughter is doing soemthing about the current situation which is to be applauded.

Their are many other artists out there who can re-record their work if they so wish. This as I said is putting there energy to far better use than talking about it on here getting no where. The discussion on here is not achieveing anything other than letting off steam. I can not see many artists contributing to the thread either so my guess is they realise it is a lost cause other than to re-record because the originals are not their property. They have moved on.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 09:41 AM

In a sense, we are talking about copies here.   The original recordings, although out of print in many cases, have not been destroyed.    While I would love to have re-mastered CD copies, the originals are not gone forever - just harder to find.

Here in the U.S., there are hundreds of vinyl LP's from the 50's through the 80's that are long out of print. The masters may be missing, or the rights are tied up by corporations. It would be wonderful to have access to everything, and in many cases the issues that have been mentioned about UK artists would apply to US artists as well. I know several artists who recorded albums for Folkways that do not make a penny when the Smithsonian sells a copy from their catalog.   A few years ago I spoke to the son of a now deceased folksinger who also would have benefited from access to the recordings his father made. Unfortunately, the legal issues prevented the family from touching them.

On a good note, I received word that the re-release of the old Traditions Record label will continue, through a new record label. Last year saw the release of several classic recordings - from artists such as A.L. Loyd, Ewan MacColl, Ed McCurdy, Jean Ritchie and others.   I understand that even in those cases, the rights were signed away when the original recordings were made, but the record label has attempted to offer some compensation to the original artists.

By the way, this new record label also owns the rights to the old Esoteric label, and if successful perhaps we will finally see more of these classic recordings re-issued.   Based on the previous reissues with the other company, they did a fine job of remastering to preserve the originals, and they kept the artwork, liner notes and some updates to make a very nice and affordable package.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 09:54 AM

Sunny:

In innumerable threads passim (and not just here) for 10 years and at after-gig whinge fests for the past 20, many an artist has had a great deal to say and I do not know personally of any who think it is a 'lost cause'. You do them a great disservice by saying casually that they should just abandon their life's work as though it lacked artistic value and importance.

I repeat: it's not just the money.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:01 AM

Here's a Usenet discussion centred around a Guardian piece of exactly 10 years ago.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:05 AM

For Guardian read Observer.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: treewind
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:06 AM

Sunny, both you and Ron are (at least about this matter) ill-informed, to give a generous interpretation of what's otherwise breathtakingly crass and smug "advice".
Apart from the deceased artists Diane mentioned, try making that suggestion to Nic Jones, preferably face to face in front of his family and friends.

Artists like Pete Coe, who are still alive and fit to play and who have previous albums locked in the grip of CM, have recorded masses of new stuff over the years since the CM buyout happened, and are still playing and singing. They are working their asses off, clearly know more about the folk music business that you do, and hardly need "caution" about "homework/research" and how to run their busy lives. But it doesn't stop them from being rightly pissed off about a large chunk of back catalogue from which they can derive no benefit, and all for no good reason.

Anahata

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: treewind
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:08 AM

ps there have been several more messages added while I was composing that. I was referring to Sunny's earlier post.

A.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:11 AM

Anahata, I think you and Diane are not understanding what I am saying. I do not think for an instance that anyone should give up and I would hope that Nic Jones recordings will eventually be released to him.    What I am saying is that you need to understand that this is not a unique occurance, and as you mention "homework/research" - I agree. There is precedent that needs to be understood in order to resolve this.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:22 AM

Precedent? What precedent?
CM has relented on rights issues in the cases of some artists but not others.
Rosemary Hardman and Mick Tems spring instantly to mind.
Yet in other instances, applications to purchase them back have been turned down flat.
Where's the sense?
It's not a matter of understanding 'precedent' but the realms of psychiatry.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: treewind
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:24 AM

Ron: Yes, I've seen your later message and take your point that similar things are happening in the USA.

I wonder how much of a market there is for the inaccessible material from the 50-80's that you refer to, and how much of it is work by living artists who would benefit if they were re-issued and sold now?

Did the artists who recorded with Folkways signed away their rights too? What happened there, with the Smithsonian now selling those recordings?

The position with CM/Leader may be slightly different because the artists DO have rights to the the royalties, but there are none being generated because there are no sales.

Anahata

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:27 AM

When I mentioned "precendent", I was meant issues such as the ones i mentioned - I am not trying to justify it, just pointing out that it presents an obstacle that needs to be overcome. IF CM has ammo, you need to have more ammo to fight back.

Do you know why CM relented in some cases? Is it purely arbitrary?

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:35 AM

I imagine the market here in the U.S. would be minimal, probably similar to the UK in most cases, but it would be nice for an artist to have their own recordings to sell from their website or at concerts.

Many of the artists are still performing, or it could help their families - or even other artists. My understanding of the Folkways situation is that Moses Asch made "agreements" with the original artists and he owned the rights.   When the material was transferred to the Smithsonian, the rights also transferred. I could be wrong, and if someone could correct me please do, but I don't think they are paying royalities unless specified in contracts. I do know of one artist who has an LP on Folkways and she is making (illegally it seems) copies of her own recording to sell at her shows. She was not a "name" performer, so my guess is that the Smithsonian Folkways sales are minimal at best - I believe they only release this particular recording as a CD-R.

That is interesting to hear that the artists would have rights to royalites from CM recordings. As you point out, that appears to be different from the situations that I mentioned. Honestly, I had not heard that - or misread it if it was mentioned in one of the other threads. Does that pose a "legal loophole" that could be pursued?

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:55 AM

Performing royalties are collected centrally by the PRS and distributed to artists direct in respect of airplay and performance returns.

Receipt of cheques in respect of this are usually the first an artist knows of the release of a CD-R of their previously hidden work. I have mentioned this, many times, in previous threads.

CM could not withhold these royalties even if they wanted to.

Mechanicals are an entirely different matter.

A producer proposing to issue (or re-issue) a recording is supposed to obtain a licence from the MCPS and an above-board pressing plant will insist on this before doing the run. Thus the artist will receive royalties according to retail sales.

If the release is on CD-R there is clearly no check on sales, though a producer ought in theory, make annual returns to the MCPS. Who checks?

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 11:04 AM

Thanks Diane. Very similar to the U.S. There are performance rights, supposedly paid by ASCAP, BMI, etc. for everytime a song is played on the radio.   Certain radio stations pay annual fees for performance rights to play songs, instead of "per spin" payments.

The problem in the U.S. is that unless you are Madonna, the artist has to fight for their money.   It is a sad situation all over.

In theory, wouldn't Nic be paid royalty fees for whatever songs of his are played on the radio? If the recent Topic recordign receives enough airplay, would that offset the potential royalties from the CM recordings?   Would a campaign for more airplay of the recordigns that are available help in the UK?

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 11:39 AM

Would a campaign for more airplay of the recordigns that are available help in the UK?

Well, yes but I don't suppose you will be surprised to know that Unearthed/In Search Of/Penguin Eggs don't feature on max rotation lists. Nor does Game Set Match, though, yes, Nic Jones will get 50% (I believe) of the PRS fee because the BBC pays a blanket annual levy to the PRS.

A clip of a track from Penguin Eggs (Planxty Davis) is played weekly on Mike Harding's show while he reads out the Top 10, and that's about it. And he has been known to play the CD-Rs and been roundly criticised for it.

But just how can you compensate for over two decades of lost royalties on sales?

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 11:51 AM

"But just how can you compensate for over two decades of lost royalties on sales? "

That is a big problem, it is impossible to accurately say what those sales would have been.

I don't know if they have anything similar in the UK, but here in the U.S. the folk-DJ community has their own listserv. If there is an issue, such as playing CD-R's, that could be brought to a community of peers, perhaps there would be less chance of this continuing.

From what I gather, you have campaigned in the folk publications and here on Mudcat. Perhaps an organized demonstration at the BBC Folk Awards, or at major festivals, might bring more pressure?

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 01:18 PM

Diane ,could that be the reason, celtic music are not keen on cds but prefer cdr,s.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 01:38 PM

Ron

Many with more clout that I have fought this fight longer and harder than I have.
And I'm not exactly holding my breath for an invite to the Folk Awards.
Smooth Ops and I are scarcely Best Friends.


Dick

I couldn't possibly comment.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 01:40 PM

Who is "Smooth Ops"?

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 01:48 PM

Smooth Ops

Independent company to whom the BBC outsource the production of dumbed-down, f*lk-tinged Cambridge fodder and extremely unfunny comedy.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbins(no not that one!!!)
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 03:26 PM

"But just how can you compensate for over two decades of lost royalties on sales?"

Unless you know someone with a whole hell of alot of money...you can't.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 05:27 PM

I'm rapidly beginning to think that nobody reads what is written here.

Mr O says

"In theory, wouldn't Nic be paid royalty fees for whatever songs of his are played on the radio? If the recent Topic recordign receives enough airplay, would that offset the potential royalties from the CM recordings?   Would a campaign for more airplay of the recordigns that are available help in the UK?"

Ron. (with great respect)

I know just how much that Topic paid to Nic to have his knee replaced last year (and living in the US, you would have to agree that is not an insubstantial amount of dosh, not having a state health service in your country).

And that was an advance for "Game,Set,Match",
(without the MD of Topic having heard a note)
Topic have been around for a while, and although successful, are not yet millionaires, and are slightly loathe to throw what little money they have around.
And yet, they were prepared to stump up the cash, because they believed in the project.
Topics belief was born out with a lifetime achievement for Nic (with new knee!) at the BBC Folk awards. complete with standing ovation.
I rest my case on that one.

Sunny

With the greatest respect. Dead or crippled people cannot re-record their work.

Others can record their own versions if they so wish. (Mary Black, Kate Rusby, et al)

Nothing wrong with that. quite like some versions of these songs, actually.

I myself have covered other artists material (with complete agreement with the artists, and PRS deals done with their companies, monies duly delivered)

I could never cover any Nic J arrangement, all the cash would go to Bulmer, and Nic would not get a penny.

Before Game, Set, Match was released, an injunction was served on Topic records by an acolyte of Mr Bulmer.

Topics reaction......GO ON THEN...SUE US!!

CMs rejoinder.....nothing.

Record released, critical acclaim, standing ovation, big sales.

Imagine if all the lost LPs of Nic could be rested from the grasp of the Knaresborough Mafia.

Thank you chaps in the US, but this is very personal to us in the UK.
These people, alive or dead are very important to us. please show some respect. And, we will do the same for you guys. I'm sure that there are huge and not dissimilar circumstances happening over there.
After all, little people get kicked by big people all over the world.

Nothing changes, It all stays the same.
(c John Tams)


Ralphie











I

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 07:32 PM

Ralphie (also with great respect) - I am reading what has been posted here.   Diane mentioned a performance royalty fee, which if I understood her post, is different from a royalty fee paid for CD sales. Topic would have nothing to do with payment for radio play.   

I'm not sure why you are admonishing me about what Topic paid Nic, as it seems to have nothing to do with the performance fees that Diane was talking about.   Did I misunderstand?

Subject: sick note, why paddy's not at work, esti
From: GUEST,john bayliss.
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 09:56 PM

This song that many here on Mudcat have become bored with has according to MCPS in England sold in different formats, The Dubliners, Clancy Brothers, Foster and Allen, Ray Stevens, The Irish Rovers, Brendan Grace, and many others,Has sold more than 30 million copies worldwide, the song is recorded somehere in the world nearly every week.
Publisher, CELTIC MUSIC, DAVE BULMER, WRITER, PAT COOKSEY, Celtic Music, ie, Bulmer and Sharpley have taken every penny generated from this song.
Regardless of the catalogue Bulmer owms, this song is his biggest income, collected by Meil Sharpley, Louth, Lincolshire.
Needless to say Cooksey, the composer of the song gets nothing, English folk music is indeed sinking to new depths, to tolerate this behavior.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 01:01 AM

Apparently you do misunderstand, Ron, but it's very difficult to see how or why.

An advance may be paid prior to the release or even the making of a recording. The fact that the sum paid to Nic Jones in respect of Game Set Match (different archive recordings of which CM does not own the rights, was sufficient to repair his knee should be an indication of just how much faith a small independent company had in the project. This has, subsequently, been amply borne out by a Lifetime Achievement Award and (relatively) massive sales. This has surely vindicated Topic's determination in the face of both threatened legal action from CM and crass, ill-informed, pomposity about 'lost causes' from those operating their own screwed up agendas.

MCPS/PRS royalty fees (or lack thereof) are an entirely different area which I explained at length because you said you didn't understand how they worked in the UK. The important aspect of these is that, as a result of CM owning the publishing rights and failing to release the recordings, artists of been deprived of potential income for over two decades.

As a related side issue, I notice that a thread about Pat Cooksey's The Sick Note, thought to generate a considerable portion of CM's income, has been zapped after just one post. I wonder why.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 02:53 AM

The John Bayliss "Sick Note" thread was closed because we have no need for yet another "Sick Note" thread or yet another Bulmer thread. I moved the message into this thread. The 15 existing "Sick Note" threads are here (click).
-Joe-

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 03:14 AM

Hi Ron.

I think earnings from Radio play is a bit of a red herring.
I don't know about the set up over in the States, but, here in the UK, there are very few programmes. Mike Harding (1 hour per week), Andy Kershaw (1 and a half hours per week), and Late Junction (3/4 hours a week, but only occasional folk is featured).
Thats national BBC Radio, Local radio has some valiant attempts to fight a rearguard action against the much cheaper phone in style of programmes. And long may that continue. (Some of them are available on the "Listen Again" facility on the Beebs website).

Most working artists over here, in my experience, buy a stock of CDs from whatever company they recorded with, and are then free to sell them at gigs, thus supplementing the sometimes meagre fees they get for performing.

In fact there is a loose arrangement between several artists, here in the UK, whereby thay swap CDs, and open up a sort of mini-shop at gigs, selling several different artists.

So, for instance. I'm doing a gig, box of records on the door, and I can say, if you like me, you might like these other artists too. check 'em out!!

This is fine for performing artists.
But, what about incapacitated ones (and the dead)?

It all comes down then to who owns the publishing rights.
Obviously, the artist concerned cannot perform, and sell CDs, so, if they don't own the publishing rights (Yes, Yes...they should have known better, but who did when they were 20)

If your equivalent of Beethovens 5th is recorded by Bob Dylan or Paul Simon (Why did those two names pop into my head??) then you get diddly squat.

So, the publishing rights are the real issue. Broadcast PRS rights are nice, but if you can't perform.........

Hope that makes sense Ron. Would love to discuss this further over a beer one day. You sound like an all right guy.

And I meant the Kind Regards bit!!!

Ralphie

PS. This is probably why the Pat Cooksey "Sick Note" saga has gone suspiciously quiet. There is a lot of money involved in that one. Good luck Pat, if you read this!!

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 03:57 AM

Message to Joe.

I can quite understand why this whole CM/Pat Cooksey/Nic Jones controversy is bemusing to all your US readers. Sorry, but it is actually very important to a lot of artists over here in the UK.
The very fact that you have closed so many threads on these subjects, seems to suggest that you're getting a bit fed up with it all.
I would just like to thank you for allowing these discussions to take place at all.
I know that I'm fallible, but, I do try to be civil in my posts.
(fail miserably sometimes!!)
You're the ones in charge, but, I thank you for your indulgence..
I'm sure you would be interested in how this whole sad and sorry saga pans out.

Thanks Ralphie

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 05:17 AM

yes, thankyou for your patience, Joe.
it is also of interest to people in the Republic of Ireland,not just myself,there are other musicians here in Ireland, who I believe have been affected by Celtic Music.DickMiles

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 08:46 AM

Ralphie, there is no need to thank us for patience. This is a very interesting discussion to us in the States as well. There is just no need to have several threads going on what is, substantially, the same subject. Also, when a subject has been covered a number of times, as in the case w/ "The Sick Note", we will refer folks back to a previous thread.

Mick

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 04:04 PM

I fail to see why transatlantic members of the Cat need to be thanked for being 'patient'.
The issue of ownership of publishing rights isn't at all difficult to comprehend.
In the case of Pat Cooksey, his composition The Sick Note is making money for the owner of those rights, though not for him.
But in the case of those whose music remains in the Harrogate vaults, no-one is making money.
More importantly, no-one has access to it.
These scenarios are not at all 'substantially the same' at all, other than that the same person is responsible for each.
Personally, I care not about the owner but I do care about the artists and their music.
What's hard to understand?
People have died and more will sooner or later.
Yet you whinge about things 'not being that simple'.
They are.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 04:23 PM

I don't know if it's a matter of patience. I really would like to see a rational discussion, and every thread we've had on this Bulmer affair seems to end in chaos. I see lots of speculation and lots of anger, but very little in the way of facts.
Diana, you seem to adhere to the philosophy that if you throw enough words and enough animosity into a discussion, you win. There may be some merit to that. Eventually, all the rational people leave, and the survivors have their cherished illusion of victory.
Sad, isn't it?

I hope Dick Greenhaus has some success in achieving rational discussion in his moderated thread.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Mr. Gubbins (no, not that one!!!)
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 04:24 PM

I would warrant that the owner in question does not care one hoot about the debate his actions have engendered either, yet the debates rage ever on.
now that's simple.....

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 04:42 PM

Exactly, Mr Gubbins.
And not just him.

Winners, Joe Offer? Who is winning?
Who is being rational?
What's rational about sick and dead people?
What's rational about debating for ever what's been stolen from them?
Throughout this thread I've been ever so polite and explanatory.
I've stopped.
I'm angry in the face of patronising stupidity that you're trying to disguise as 'rationality'.
It's not. Try (if you can) 'humanity'.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 05:08 PM

Oh, and the 'moderated' thread (which I think is about collecting and not publishing rights) is going absolutely swimmingly with people complaining that Kenny Goldstein didn't buy them shampoo as he did me.

(Actually, it was that stuff that smells of chestnuts, but who else around here cares about accuracy?)

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 06:41 PM

Ralphie, thank you so much for your clear explanation. Diane's original was a bit misleading, but I also appreciate Diane clearing this up. I am very interested in this story because it does have similar ramifications here in the U.S.

Now that Ralphie has given a clear explantion, it does become very clear to understand how things work in the U.K. There are similar setups here in the U.S..    There are payments for radio airplay, payments for CD sales, and payments for publishing rights. All three are separate issues.   

From what I understand, at least in current day usage, the publishing rights are usually not tied in with the original recording as it seems to have been the case with this Bulmer issue. I guess we have learned from issues like this.

It is very good to see that Topic gave Nic Jones such a generous (and well deserved) advance on the CD. I am guessing they might not make their investment back, but it is good to hear of a record label with a heart.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 06:50 PM

It is important that this matter,is kept in the forefront of peoples minds,anyone that can attempt to serve topic with an injunction,to prevent Nic Jones from producing a cd,has behaved without moral consideration,.
Humanity is more important,than anything else,.,More important than legal niceties,it is what is supposed to seperate us from the animal kingdom.
if we all adopt the Thatcherite mentality of looking after number one regardless of that effect on society,I am afraid civilisations days are numbered.
Joe Offer,there are alot of very angry people right throughout and to the top of the uk folk scene,,they are very angry about The behaviour of Celtic music.
Iam very pleased that the right thing has been done for MickTems,but this is a drop inthe ocean, as D Easby pointed out his[Celtic M] biggest money maker must be the Sick Note.,
Some men rob you with a shotgun others with a fountain pen,but i,ve never seen an outlaw turn a poor man from his home.
embezzlement is something that lawyers get struck off for, even lawyers have moral codes.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 07:06 PM

Oh, I have no doubt about the existence of the anger - and I tend to think that it is justified. However, angry people who can't express anything but anger, end up sounding foolish - whether their cause is worthy or not.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 07:19 PM

I don't want to hear re-recorded versions of wonderful original albums. I want to hear the originals, on CD with the best quality sound that can be applied to them. I want to know that the artist is getting his/her proper recompense.   But above all I want my heritage back. So I want to hear, on CD, Ballads and Songs, Noah's Ark Trap and all the rest in glorious 21st Century sound.   Quite a simple request really.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 08:00 PM

OK, so that's part of the argument. You want to hear music you grew up with. I feel the same thing about many of the old Elektra folk albums that aren't available just now. They're not being released on CD as quickly as I'd like to see them. I suppose somebody is waiting to release these albums when they think they can make money on them. I have to wait, stuck with only some 5,000 CD's in my collection.
What's the difference between Elektra and Bulmer?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Mr Audiophile
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 08:06 PM

well.. ermmm..

Elektra may have carefully conservered the origional
multi-track and master tapes,
so that, eventually, it might still be possible
to listen to their CD releases in best available source quality
Hi Fi audio.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 11:29 PM

Ralph said: I'm rapidly beginning to think that nobody reads what is written here.

At 06.44 on 5 June I wrote: The artists signed a contract standard at the time which didn't (as now) contain a clause by which publishing rights reverted to them if the company was wound up

and a while later, in response to an idiotic challenge to call CM's bluff to release the material: Because as things stand, he is the only one with the legal right to do this. What you are suggesting is piracy. I then clarified the difference between recording and publishing copyright.

At 10.55 on 8 June I wrote: Performing royalties are collected centrally by the PRS and distributed to artists direct in respect of airplay and performance returns. Receipt of cheques in respect of this are usually the first an artist knows of the release of a CD-R of their previously hidden work. I have mentioned this, many times, in previous threads. CM could not withhold these royalties even if they wanted to. Mechanicals are an entirely different matter. A producer proposing to issue (or re-issue) a recording is supposed to obtain a licence from the MCPS and an above-board pressing plant will insist on this before doing the run. Thus the artist will receive royalties according to retail sales. If the release is on CD-R there is clearly no check on sales, though a producer ought in theory, make annual returns to the MCPS. That covers performance and sales.

Seems perfectly clear to me. What's misleading? It's the bleedin' obvious, actually. I wrote all that without a shred of anger for those who can't be arsed to look up a few simple facts themselves, without which they remain in the dark over this issue and spout rubbish.

Ralph went on to explain the Topic advance which vindicated the viability of re-release and how the publishing rights are the main money earner, two different but very important aspects which complete the picture (if you've been following so far).

Clearly not. What we get now is a trivialisation of the Leader/Trailer catalogue and a fatuous comparison with Elektra who can do just one thing better than anybody else: compression.

Still angry. Very.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 02:16 AM

Hi Joe.

I admit to knowing very little about the Elektra label, or the company, so, could you tell me more.

1. Is Elektra still in existence as a label? If not, and has ceased to be (as Monty Python might put it!), do you know who bought them out?
2. Are the artists who recorded on Elektra still around today? (hopefully so), and if they are, would they like to see their early work available?
3. Would these artists wish to buy back all the rights to the original recordings, including publishing, etc, etc, with a view to putting them out themslves, even if it would make little commercial sense? (for old times sake)
4. If so, would the present owners of the Elektra catalogue be willing to discuss a deal with said artists to both sides mutual satisfaction?

I've said it before, but it bears repeating.
After the demise of Dingles records here in the UK, I was contacted by the ex MD of the company, and after a bit of a chat, managed to buy back the rights to my first recording. (Master tapes, Multitrack, All legal rights etc, etc).

The LP was recorded in 1980,I bought the stuff about ten years ago, and as yet, haven't done anything with them (complete tardiness on my part, I'm afraid!!)

The point being, that at least I could if I wanted to, and out of common human decency, if it became a million seller (I wish!!), I would be only too happy to include Roger (Dingles supremo) in a cut of the profits for believing in the band at the outset, and paying the initial recording costs. (I don't think he's holding his breath!!!!)

In other words, an amicable agreement was made.
Could the Elektra artists acheive this if they wanted too?

As far as the Bulmer saga is concerned, there are quite a few artists over here in the UK, who would be only too happy to pay hard cash for their early works, but negotiation....zilch.

The fact that all of these threads have been resurfacing over the years, is to let Mr Bulmer know that he hasn't been forgotten.

The (in his case) unwanted publicity, has at least prevented him from putting out anymore short runs of CDs which benefit the artists not one jot.

I hope this posting doesn't sound too angry.
(oh, and Joe, I'd really like to know about the Elektra story)

Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 02:27 AM

Hi Ron.
I've no idea if Topic have recouped the advance to Nic for Game, Set, Match.
But knowing Tony Engle quite well, I'm pretty sure he doesn't care one way or the other!!
Play it lots on your radio show, increase interest in Nic in the US, boost sales through CAMSCO (or whoever).
And maybe TOPIC will get its money back.
After all, it was TOPIC who believed in the "Songs of the People" 24 CD set. Hardly going to get to the top of the charts, but a worthy, and fascinating project true to the companies original very left wing beliefs.
More power to them.
Kind !!! Regards
Ralphie
Must have that beer sometime!

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 02:42 AM

Elektra is nowadays part of the Warner Group.
Re-releases of, for example, Incredible String Band material is the worst, technically, that I have ever heard, quite on a par with a CM CD-R.
Nowhere on the packaging does it mention remastering so I assume they didn't bother with such niceties.
Having just received a lengthy email from Joe Boyd about the Syd Barrett tribute, I think I'll ask him what consultation, if any, took place.
All tracks are licensed by GEMA, it says.

(Playing Wistman's Wood so marginally less angry).

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 02:50 AM

Topic was founded originally by the Workers' Music Association and its director before Tony Engle till his death in the mid 70s was Gerry Sharp, a powerful mentor both musically and in the Hampstead Communist Party.

Just in case anybody wanted to know where I get it all from.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 03:00 AM

Sometimes, the best thing you can say in response is

100!