Strictly Come Folk Dancing?

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 05:09 AM

I'd seriously suggest you check the terms of that insurance - if you haven't done so already.

Inviting the unpractised public to "come and have a go" is not the same as insuring a practised side against accidents.

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Rattler
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 07:31 PM

I'm sure Sue will reply but be assured that Herbaceous has insurance like other Morris sides. That there have been no serious incidents to date may reflect the standard of instruction.

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 03:46 PM

I can see the point (though I would probably disagree with) of an "on-the-street workshop" - Sheffield City Morris have always (when appropriate) give the public chance to have a go. Last week Sheffield held its annual "Chance to Dance" designed exactly for that purpose and people were able to try all sorts of dancing including Morris. We have also run workshops both at UK festivals and at foreign festivals where (especially) it is often part of the work a team is asked to do.

I happen to think the proper place for a total "workshop" is outside the public gaze but if it is clear that that is what you are doing then it has its good points as you mention. Of course those turned off might not approach you and those who think like Fi GLover will undoubtedly have their prejudices reinforced. They are not likely to say so either.

But your plea on this board was not for the public, it was for people who read this and will be at a Festival to come and join you - not the public but dancers and musicians.

Now I am not sure what they are joining - but it is clearly not a practised side and I can see why you might need a musician but if you are teaching some sort of morris dancing from scratch then I think a demonstration side ought to have more to offer than people who happen to be at a festival.

Of course if you are teaching Border with to strangers then you have thought what might happen if a member of the public hurts another member of the public with a stick!! I once spent an unhappy couple of hours in hospital with (as it happens) a fellow dancer where a piece of stick flew off, smashed into his glasses and could easily have blinded him. So it does happen.

To Snuffy
Yes of course I can see the difference between the RAH and I enjoy them both.

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 03:10 PM

it was indeed!

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 03:00 PM

I've missed Bampton for several years because I was hosting singarounds in Chippenham - so it was good to see a Bampton side dancing in Chippenham on the Saturday. When I asked Dave Spiers whether it was Arnold's side or Francis's side he told me it appeared to be a mixture of both.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Sue the Borderer
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:04 AM

Hi Folkiedave
I've just had this thread pointed out to me. I'm interested in how strongly you feel that what we are doing as Herbaceous Border is damaging to the image of morris.

I, too, dance with a 'proper side' which practices hard all winter and aims to get the balance right between dancing really well, enjoying ourselves and entertaining the public. (Can't find the previous thread on this topic.)

People come to 'the morris' by different routes. Mine was by first getting involved with Herbaceous Border - and quite a number of other people do too.

Recently a morris dancer in full kit came up to me at a Festival and said "I must thank you! I've been dancing a while and I've kept trying to get my partner to come along to a practice night or a workshop and he always refused. Then, last year when we saw Herbaceous on the street he came and had a go. He enjoyed it so much he's joined the side and dances regularly." (Enter partner stage right, also in full morris kit.)
Sorry - it sounds like a slushy magazine story, but I promise you it's true.

Other typical comments include "I've been watching the dancing all weekend (or even 'for years') and it's brilliant to get the chance to have a go." This may be followed by "I've only done one dance and I'm shattered. You folks dance all day - you must be fit! I promise I'll never take the p*ss out of morris dancers again."

There may well be a few people in the crowd whose negative image of morris dancing is reinforced by what we are doing, but I think the majority can tell the difference between the skilled, slick display side and the simple basic dances that we do as part of an on-the-street workshop. What the two have in common is that they are both done with enjoyment, energy and enthusiasm...... which is catching!

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: AlexB
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 07:43 AM

Folkiedave, Sue teaches the dance, walking people through the steps, and then they run through it. There are several people there who are regulars and know the dances and help the others as they go.

The point is to show the public that it is fun. Herbaceous is not so much a display side, so don't hold it up as one. If it gets the public joining in, having fun and interested in dancing, then it is doing good work. And I believe it does do those things.

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Snuffy
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:06 AM

I can see the good both in informal "outreach" events, and in performances of a professional standard. Can you see both?

Folk should include both the pub singaround and the Watersons at the Albert Hall. Neither of these "harms" folk - they are folk.

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:05 AM

And then you would not be able to see the good others are doing either!!

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Snuffy
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:56 AM

How would I know? I'm one of the blind who can't see the irrepareable harm we're doing.

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 08:51 AM

Snuffy - do tell me what I am missing........

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Snuffy
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 08:34 AM

" the partially-sighted leading the blind" ... while the blinkered refuse to see?

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 12:20 PM

If what is happening is asking the public to come along and have go at dancing then IMHO there should be a number of quality, well-rehearsed dancers there along with quality well-rehearsed musicians who both (dancers and musicians) know what they are doing.

But this was an appeal for dancers and musicians to come and join in an unrehearsed public performance - even if the public are being asked to join in at some point. Are they being asked to join in immediately? Is there a show first and then they are asked to join in after a demonstration - which seems to me to be the most likely. Who then does the show? Have they rehearsed?

Otherwise it seems to me that you have the partially-sighted leading the blind!!

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 11:53 AM

You could go through Marlborough or Avebury instead! Much more interesting.

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 02:57 PM

I was at Chippenham that weekend

Well, indeed, as I said much higher up, I imagine the item was timed to coincide with Bampton on the 28th, and Saturday Live was on the replayer up to and including 2 June.

The thing about Chip + Bampton following each other reminds me of a question I was once asked about doing both, and by a scenic route to boot. I said that this would involve driving blindfold through Swindon.

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 02:49 PM

There obviously is an issue about presentation - established sides that are dancing at a festival for display (especially if they're booked sides, but also if they're just busking) ought to be well-rehearsed, and so should scratch sides if they're in a procession. But I think it's OK to hold an open public workshop, when that's what it's advertised and announced as - a bit like inviting members of the public to join in dancing BGG.

Kitty

(I didn't know about Fi Glover in time to hear the item, because I was at Chippenham that weekend)

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: GUEST,A Lurker
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 11:01 AM

"the culture of the side is more social than performance orientated, in which case the squire is trying to keep the members happy rather than give a good display, giving everyone a go regardless of ability."

As a member of a side like this I have to agree to some extent. We have one member who cannot learn even the most simple steps, but we are over a barrel and have to let them dance out with us (long story).
Sadly the sides standard of performence has suffered greatly and some of our experienced dancers now refuse to dance out with us. But we try to have fun, and include a mixture of dances to our repitior.

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: RogerTCB
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 09:40 AM

unlurking...
The dances should look difficult or fun or challenging or a combination of these; something to engage the audience and make them wish to be part of it.
When the dancing looks bad there's couple reasons I've surmised. One is that the side has committed to dancing but found they had insufficient experienced dancers when it came to the event. This is unfortunate but understandable. Its happen over the last 2 week to both Towersey & GUM.
A second reason is that the culture of the side is more social than performance orientated, in which case the squire is trying to keep the members happy rather than give a good display, giving everyone a go regardless of ability. This kind of performance should be kept away from the public IMHO because it looks carp.
(ducks to hide from flames)

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Snuffy
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 08:51 AM

Herbaceous Border are not practising in public - they are running an open workshop (teaching session) in public.

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: GUEST,Crystal
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 05:24 AM

I sent a message to Feedback about the "apology" suggesting that Ms Glover tries actually dancing wirth a team before scoffing at our culture!

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 04:19 AM

I am afraid we will have to differ on this one Kitty.

If it looks difficult in public people (I would have thought) might prefer to practise in private first - I know I would.

But practising in public (IMHO) is not the best way to present the public face of morris - too many teams look as if that's what they are doing anyway!!

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 02:45 AM

Dave

No, of course I'm not suggesting that people who practise are weirdos, or that dancers shouldn't generally practise to get the dances right before they perform in public. I was with Flowers of May as dancer, squire and foreman, and (until numbers got really tight) if you didn't make the practice before the booking you didn't dance at the booking.

Well-practised, energetic morris, is a joy to watch (and do). But if it always looks difficult when performed in public people may be discouraged from starting. Sue works hard to make dancing more accessible to people who might not otherwise think of going to a workshop.

Kitty

Kitty

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 10:16 AM

We love to give naysayers a go with the sticks - unpractised they suddenly realise how difficult it is.

And we have altered the tradition, we do "Medup" so called because we med it up us sens.

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Mr Red
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 07:47 AM

Irish display dancing was considered somewhat passe if not actually naff by yer average Irish person with newly found wealth and prosperity ..................



Until Michael Flatley lit up the genre. And changed it a little.


Morris does not lend itself to jazzing. Macho maybe. I always tell naysayers to tell "that" to a buch of Morris dancers who have consumed 8 pints each and have big sticks in their hands. They usually show some evidence of re-thinking though without the stick in evidence revert to the bravado of the naysayer.

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 05:31 AM

No Kitty I have seen them at Sidmouth as well. They looked as if they were enjoying themselves but surely "looking as if they are enjoying themselves" is hardly the most important criteria in dancing in front of the public even if it is one of them.

Secondly I am not sure why it being Border they do makes a difference, are you suggesting border doesn't need much practice or as much skill?

And I am sorry that you think well-practised morris is something that looks like something weirdos could enjoy (or enjoy doing). My experience of taking well-practised morris all over Europe is just the opposite.

I am suggesting that unrehearsed dancing that anyone can join in with be they musician or be they dancer - and (important) which is done in front of the public - does not do morris dancing in general any favours. And if that is all they see they end up with opinions like Fi Glover's.

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 03:02 AM

Herbaceous dance border, not Cotswold or North West, and they look as if they're enjoying it - they don't bring dance into disrepute or make it look like an esoteric activity which only weirdos could enjoy. FD - if you've seen them and think otherwise you're entitled to say so, but if your comment was based only on what you've read on another Mudcat thread, it's not much better than the basis for Fi Glover's comments.

Kitty

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 03:02 AM

To get back on topic: yes, Surreysinger, I have sent an email in to Feedback. Anyone else done so?

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 06:19 PM

I stopped dancing North West when the second knee went.... couldn't see any point in dancing if I couldn't get the oomph into it. Still miss it though....

Kitty

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 08:22 AM

As far as I know there is no traditional dancing that is easy when it is done properly.

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 08:15 AM

On the subject of dancing well (or not) - I once heard a member of Hurst Morris, though not one of the ones on Saturday Live, advising someone whose painful joints had forced her to give up North West morris and Border that she should do Cotswold instead, because it was 'easier'...
The reply was 'Not if you do it properly, it isn't'.

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 08:09 AM

Dave - didn't actually say I'd seen you dance though did I!!

Give Timbo a big wet kiss for me next time you see him.

LTS

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 06:54 AM

Thanks for enlightening me Dave. As I recall, they were (are?) an incredibly enthusiastic bunch of people... just found this which makes interesting reading. I'm assuming that, since they had a reunion concert three years ago, they're still in existence!

All of which is, of course, incredibly off topic [grins]. Anybody sent anything in to Feedback??

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:06 AM

Thank you Liz - To Irene, I bought their LP as a "present" for my brother-in-law who (fortunately) appreciated the sense of humour behind the present.

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 12:53 AM

I've heard of Portsmouth Sinfonia... I've also seen FolkieDave's former dance team. I know which I'd rather watch, and they're not from the south!

LTS

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 04:52 PM

I've heard of them (and heard them on TV and radio) ... do I get a prize??? And Dave, why would you have wanted to do that???

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 02:23 PM

I actually bought their LP.

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 02:16 PM

Well, they had a Top 40 hit in 1981 with Classical Muddley
(Sorry, I'm demolishing my own case . . . )

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 02:11 PM

Who on earth has heard of the Portsmouth Sinfonia? Apart from me and you Diane......

Dave

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 11:24 AM

Quite.

Where's the point in setting out to be a downmarket equivalent of the Portsmouth Sinfonia?

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 11:17 AM

I happen to believe that Morris dancing which I did for approximately thirty years for a side which was invited to festivals all over Europe and even visited South America for a festival, is a valid expression of a traditional folk art. Our reception abroad was often equivalent to that of national dance sides and sometimes people had difficulty believing we did this with no state support.

I happen to take it seriously and practised hard every Monday night to get it right so that when it was presented to the public we did not get the reaction of Fi Glover.

Frankly it is hard enough to stop people taking the mickey out of morris dancing. We do ourselves no favours with "come and dance even if you have never danced before" IF and I do stress IF - we are doing this in public. At the beginning we practised for a full year before going out in public.

If we are doing this in the confines of festival workshops then fine.

If we are teaching young people over the space of a week - like they did with a young rapper team at Sidmouth and are announced to the public as such that is also fine.

But if we are asking people to join in an ad hoc team to appear in front of the public with unrehearsed dancers and musicians frankly we deserve all the bad publicity and piss taking we get.

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 09:57 AM

Yes, Ian, I have to agree. Having listened to the "apology", it doesn't seem to be an apology as such at all. (And what's more we still had sniggering studio guests in the background ....sigh!) And, like you, I wondered why the celebrities were mentioned... since the article IIRC had nothing whatsoever to do with anything like Strictly Come Dancing - it was just a straight article about Morris dancing...the only place I've seen the link is in this particular thread, unless I'm mistaken! Still contemplating whether to pursue this again or to just let sleeping dogs lie ...

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Snuffy
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 09:46 AM

Folkiedave - you have taken that quote totally out of context. Like you, I would find it perturbing if it were from a permanent, long-established side, seeming to throw all standards to the winds.

But "this sort of thing" was from Herbaceous Border, an irregular, scratch side which only exists at festivals. It has no regular members, as its main raison d'être is to attract novices at festivals to try out morris dancing for the very first time. A few minutes instruction, then get up and do it! Perhaps it should state that you are welcome to dance with Herbaceous Border even if you've danced before!

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 08:41 AM

Yes, I take it I was the Ian mentioned on the programme, as I sent in the email also in this thread. I agree that Fi Glover more or less said, 'I'm so sorry I took the piss out of you that I reserve the right to do it again.' That is not an apology. (It was also bizarre: why mention celebs?!) I thought I might email again but when you're dealing with someone who has such scant respect for you it just doesn't seem like a good use of precious time. I like the feedback idea, though. Here's the website. The Feedback email is, unsurprisingly, [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 04:57 PM

As always I'm on the look out for musicians who might play for us. Any offers?? Also anyone who wants to, is welcome to come and dance (regadless of whether or not they've danced border morris before)

I took this from another thread.

I wonder if Ms Glover got her attitude from this sort of thing.

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:34 AM

I was mentioned?? And I missed it! I heard the words "Morris dancers" at the end of something while I was in another room of the house,(well, in the bath, to be precise) but not the whole thing. Must go away to see if its on Replay.
In my email I made the point that the piece itself had been good and well balanced, but made the point that it was a shame that the general in studio merriment which had been encouraged afterwards detracted from the positive etc etc.

On the whole, I certainly do agree with John and Diane that the programme is a good one (but not as good as the late lamented predecessor), and I enjoy listening to it.

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:22 AM

Getting a member of the production team (or even a R4 suit) onto Feedback (by which I mean Roger Bolton's programme with a large F) to explain BBC policy towards tradarts would be an achievement.

I too like Ms Glover's presentation style in general. Just because she's got away (twice) with taking the piss out of something I think is important isn't a reason to condemn the whole programme. The item was good.

Sandi Toksvig did much the same with Morris dancing a few weeks ago on The Unbelievable Truth. What is very much more important is that items on tradarts are produced and we should encourage that. The presentation is far less important.

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: johnadams
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:12 AM

I might be alone here but I like Fi Glover's programme, think she presents in a very entertaining style, upsets a range of people to just the right extent (including us), reacts to feedback, works with her producer to include a range of 'ordinary' people and runs the programme with some tension. I never miss it.

I don't think she measures up (who could) to Peel (and David Stafford) whose slot she replaced, but it's a much better programme than the one I was expecting.

Keep writing though! We need the free air time.

J

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 06:59 AM

Well, indeed, why would Ms Glover mention me?
I corresponded with the Saturday Live editor with whom production decisions lie, and requested more such items because the content was good.

Not much point in talking to whoever they hire to present. The editor can change this, and possibly will.

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 06:51 AM

Sorry, I was typing in a hurry getting ready to go out. It was Irene (Surrey singer) not Diane. Ian was presumably the 'Ian cookieless' who also posted. Anyone admit to being Steve?

Subject: RE: Strictly Come Folk Dancing?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 12:53 PM

It occurred to me the other day that Ms Glover and cohorts are nothing but fops. Sir Percy Blakeneys without the redeeming Scarlet Pimpernel alter ego. I can well imagine that the apology was anything but. Interesting though that even a pretense was offered; sounds like the complaints had *some* effect.

so - who are Diane, Ian and Steve?

sian