morality of collecting

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 May 07 - 06:53 PM

This is a complicated subject. A contract is a contract, and while 'moral' issues may be present, there are also 'ethical' questions. I'm not defending Bulmer, everything I have read about him makes him sound slimey. Still, I think there are other sides to the issue.

I can't find where Mr Olesko said this. Did it vanish when Joe Offer issued his red closure notice?
Mr O to be just as slimey a git as Bulmer.
Mr O describes himself as a dinosaur, but weren't these gentle creatures?
Yes, he's trying to bully me by threatening to publish a book of lies about me, but to what end?
I can strike back. Those deprived of their intellectual property, and thus a source of income, because of the terms of a contract can not - because that contract is 'legal'.

The 'other side of the issue' is exactly as described by Steve Shaw above. Although not obliged in law to do anything at all, Bulmer's publishing company could perform a humanitarian function not only for the artists but a lucrative one for himself as well as them by selling the rights back.

Please do not bore me either with attempts to justify why he should not.

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 May 07 - 07:28 PM

I copied and pasted the quote from a post up the thread - it's still there!

Cheers

Steve

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 30 May 07 - 07:34 PM

Ah, yes.

Found it under the bit where he says he doesn't need my permission to write anything he damn well likes about me.

What a scumbag.

And wrong. Well, maybe he doesn't need permission but if he does it, he'll pay.

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 30 May 07 - 08:00 PM

Dianne, I do understand that you find it difficult to hold a civil conversation and you truly do not wish to even consider a point of view other than your own (same with Steve Shaw), but if you took a moment to really read what I wrote I think you would realize how ridiculous you are looking to the rest of us.

I am very upset that this wonderful music is not available to be shared. I would also be upset if someone took advantage of a source singer. That does not appear to be the case of this conversation.

Also, check with a lawyer. I could very easily write a book about you without your permission. No, I could not write "anything he damn well likes about me" if I did not have evidence of the truth. I realize that my "book" example may have clouded your ability to comprehend, and I realize that by posing an alternate view you had to resort to name calling and attempt to demean me. It is a shame we could not discuss this issue as human beings because I probably could have learned something from you and Steve.   I'm glad I discovered the truth early.

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 May 07 - 08:04 PM

Jim Lad-
I wasn't referring to anybody. I just don't believe in closing threads unless there's a very good reason to do so.

BTW, if anyone haven't seen the "Madison County Project", h/she should. http://www.folkstreams.net/film,120
It not only has some fine music and stunning visuals, it also deals very specifically with the problems of , and with, collectors. Nothing about Bulmer, though.

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 May 07 - 09:42 PM

My goodness--Ron was only making a point--and rather cheerfully--. Ms. Easby has made a very uncheerful threat. One assumes that she is on the other side of the pond--if not, maybe we should all get our tire chains and camp out in Ron's driveway for a few days;-)

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 May 07 - 01:19 AM

A specimen of pondlife called 'M.Ted' who cannot even spell 'tyre' and is unaware even of which country I live in is called upon to provide 'evidence' for my 'biography', thinks it's ever so jolly to assist Mr Olesko in his gutter-press project over which it would be 'uncheerful' of me to sue.

These Murkans are labouring under the illusion that there is an 'alternate view' to be taken of CM's unspeakable treatment of artists and the way to deal with this is to shout down and threaten people in England who oppose Bulmer and all his works/non-works. Somebody named after a glasshouse who really ought not to throw stones is even content to import and sell product that further deprives these artists of a living.

There is no valid 'alternate view'.

You want to discuss the issue 'like human beings'? No, the sole issue is to force/persuade/compel CM to act like human beings, and even make some money for themselves. Anyone who refuses to acknowledge this is a mealy-mouthed, weasel-worded scumbag, and you have to wonder seriously just what they are in it for. Not the music or to salvage the damaged lives of the performers so affected, that's for sure.

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 31 May 07 - 02:57 AM

Hmmm. I know someone who lives in a little 'English' village in Spain, where the ex-pats are constantly at each other's throats due to something someone said out of turn, or more usually, something that someone has imagined or misheard. I know nothing of Ms Easby, or why she should seriously imagine anyone would write (or read) a book about her, but I think I can suggest a suitable retirement destination.........

And really, us Brits are on dodgy ground criticising the (usually) more logical spellings from the US.

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 May 07 - 03:20 AM

Rusty Dobro:

What an incredibly stupid name. Why don't you just scrap the non-instrument?
No, you don't know me, Fortunately,
Nor does Mr Olesko nor do any of the named potential 'informants' (apart from Dick Miles, slightly, and I'm certain he wouldn't participate).
Yet Mr O threatens to publish a book of lies and speculation purely to try and discredit my (and probably others') opposition to a music publishing scandal.
And objects pathetically when I fail to find this funny.
How dare you suggest any of this is 'imagined' or 'misheard'?
Read the threads and find out what the issues are before opening your mouth.
Musicians are suffering and dying and you think I'm wrong? Shame on you.

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 31 May 07 - 03:50 AM

Wow! Ever since I started 'catting, I've dreamed of getting a reaction like that, and today's the day! For the record, I posted after reading the entire thread and forming my own opinion, aided by whatever background knowledge I already had on the subject. Oh, and I love (but do not confine my musical activities to)my non-instrument.

The whole book idea started with a theoretical suggestion from Ron on the 29th to illustrate a point. I found that out by reading the thread.

Oh, and is it suddenly an offence to have a silly name on the Mudcat? That should thin the ranks a bit!

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 May 07 - 04:07 AM

What is truly offensive is trivialising an extremely serious subject of which you, Mr O and Mr G appear to have no background knowledge whatsoever, or if you have any, are choosing to disregard it and are thus not nice people at all.

You are casting aside the wishes and needs of artists in favour of someone who isn't even exploiting them for cash. Just being inexplicably mean and bloody-minded.

In short, what you are is a load of scumbags.

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 31 May 07 - 04:15 AM

I've made a new friend! Is there a Mr Easby?

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 May 07 - 05:27 AM

when does collecting become hoarding.
Most collectors publish their material,singers and musicians then benefit,most collectors look after their sources in one way or another.
I myself have published two tutors[with my own arrangements for song accompaniment]all traditional material or my own compositions.
I collected some tunes from an old fiddle player [who became afriend],none of thse tunes do I intend to publish,but have used to understand local fiddle technique and listened to for my own pleasure,and yes I looked after my source ,on one occassion I found him alone in his cottage [he hadnt eaten for two days]so I got his shopPing, lit a fire for him etc.
the problem with todays society is the looking after no 1 syndrome,Every collector has a moral duty to look after their sources.

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 31 May 07 - 05:37 AM

Ron: Say you're sorry for pretending you would write a biobgraphy of Diane. Diane: Say you're sorry for calling people names. The rest of you: GET BACK TO WORK!

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 May 07 - 06:56 AM

so I appeal to Dave Bulmer to do the MORALLY right thing.
he clearly has a better side re Mick Tems.
Nic Jones has been an inspiration for many people,and has given alot of people a lot of pleasure.
Dave give him agood deal he deserves it.

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST
Date: 31 May 07 - 08:21 AM

Damn, you people piss me off. It's a moot point! I'm sick of revisionist history from some pseudo-clever tangential fabricated moral stance with no basis except to make the accuser's ego larger. A plague on all your huts!

That said, the work done was great--and I appreciate it.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 31 May 07 - 08:29 AM

I have always enjoyed a pint of Bulmers to quench my thirst

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: M.Ted
Date: 31 May 07 - 08:36 AM

Poor Ms. Easby! She needs to stop hiding when they bring the med cart around.

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 31 May 07 - 08:53 AM

y'know--the subject of a collector's responsibility to his sources is one worth examining. It's a pity that there's so little interest in doing so.

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 May 07 - 09:06 AM

The responsibility of a copyright owner to those whose intellectual property and potential source of income is being infringed and negated is worth examining - and enforcing.

It's a pity there are so many wankers about too thick, selfish and/or mean-spirited to realise this.

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 31 May 07 - 09:08 AM

Then why not start a thread about that instead of diverting this one? Better yet, start a thread on how to negotiate a reasonable contract.

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 May 07 - 09:22 AM

The OP in his original post asks whether a collector paid his source for the tunes.

As this collector is the very same copyright owner who denies the artists whose rights he holds the means of making a living from them, the connection is clear and apposite.

How to negotiate a reasonable contract is just another hareng saur (or an indication of how little you choose to understand the situation).

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 07 - 09:52 AM

I know I'll regret this and be accused of being thick, but I don't care:-)

Who is the OP?

Dave

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 May 07 - 09:56 AM

The Original Poster, Captain Birdseye, who knew what he was doing.

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad
Date: 31 May 07 - 09:59 AM

Dick Miles

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 31 May 07 - 10:01 AM

Dick Greenhaus,

I tried.

I'll try again.

In the southern mountains of the United States it is NOT unusual for traditional sources singers and/or their heirs and assigns to feel that they should benefit if money is made from the material collected from them.

You might be surprised at the bitter responses that names like Lomax, Niles, and Peer evoke even today in some places.

IMHO prima facie they have a valid point.

IMHO the question to be addressed is NOT "Why should they get anything?" but rather "Why shouldn't they get anything."

To dismiss their claims as sour grapes is simply to refuse to address the issue that this thread was supposed to address.

To insist that they should've read the fine print is simply a "blame the victim" approach to the problem.

Russ (Permanent GUEST self-appointed spokesman for the voiceless)

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 07 - 10:10 AM

Ahhhhh! Thanks Diane.

You have pointed me in the right direction before when I have missed some of your points so can I ask another couple of questions?

I saw the thread as a genuine question and there have been some interesting contributions. What do you think Dick (Miles) meant to do, if it was not just to discuss the 'morality of collecting'?

Why refer to Dick Greenhaus as Mr Polytunnel or Greenhouse or any other derivation of his real name? I don't understand that point at all. I changed my handle to my real name to avoid confusion. You did the same recently. How come you want to create a pseudonym for someone who has never used anything but his real name?

Nothing to do with the topic I know. No hidden agenda here though and no axe to grind. I just want to know and, maybe, other people will benefit from that knowledge as well.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 May 07 - 10:17 AM

Mr Gnome:

(1) To discuss the (lack of) morality of a particular collector and rights holder.

(2) To show that I can take the piss too.

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: M.Ted
Date: 31 May 07 - 10:37 AM

Actually, Ms. Easby, what all the name calling and mudslinging, you have shown is that you are a totally self-absorbed fool, who does more damage to your cause than good.

Those who are either indifferent or unsympathetic you laugh at you, and those who care about the issue shake their heads in despair. Well done!

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 07 - 10:53 AM

OK. I am not sure about 1 because I think Dick (M) is more straitforward than that. If he wanted to discuss anything but the morality of collecting I think he would have said so. What do I know though... I don't think Dick (G) was taking the piss but at least I am in on the joke now:-)

Thanks

Back to thread. Is there not a big difference between collecting traditional music, which I thought we were talking about, and owning copyrights? How come the two seem to have become tangled here and is it worth trying to get back on track? Or would everyone else rather have two discussions at the same time?

Dave

PS - To anyone unversed in the other in joke can I explain that I used to be little when Diane was more upper class. Got it?

:D

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 May 07 - 10:56 AM

Well, Mr Ted (I assume you are a Mr?)
Your syntax is more than a tad adrift.
I sling mud at targets that deserve it, such as a musbiz shit who has harmed a lot of artists, many of whom I know personally,
I namecall those who ask for it, and you loud-mouthed, ill-informed Murkans are sure as hell doing that.
In other words, I know well who's to blame and have contempt for those who fail to, or decline to recognise wrong when it's staring them in the face.
You? I know nothing about you except that you are a damn Yankee fool that can't spell.
You stuck his nose into a fraught issue about which you have patently no comprehension.
That Mr O thinks you could provide source material for a book about me proves he has more than a few slates off his roof too.
And who appointed you head prefect anyway?

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 May 07 - 11:01 AM

Sigh.

Mr Polshaw, shall I draw one of those fancy html marquees and write in big, moving text for you?

No, I won't cos I'm going out, but surely you are aware that the 'collector' and the 'copyright owner' are one and the same person?

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 07 - 11:05 AM

You might as well, Diane - You know how slow I am to pick up on the Macheavellian nuances of the Mudcat:-)

And in the words of some great Lancashire poet or another, No, I know nowt!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 May 07 - 11:12 AM

OK, Dave, I'll conclude and leave by letting you know that I'm not nearly as pissed off as I might have been today because one of my greatest heroes (and here's the interesting bit for you, a LANCASHIRE musician) actually asked ME to be his MySpace friend today.

Hurrah!

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 May 07 - 11:26 AM

Ooooh - You fiend! Don't keep us in suspenders like that! Who?

:D

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad
Date: 31 May 07 - 11:36 AM

Diane, be mine!

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 May 07 - 12:08 PM

Diane, I assume you are actually attempting to be funny with your posts, and I will give you credit for that. No human being that has an ounce of dignity would stoop to the levels that you have appeared to in your posts.

For someone who seems so concerned about "morality", your ignorance in defending your position seems alarming. What does it say about a person when they refer to other peope as "pondscum" and "scumbags"? It says that person is lacking in common decency and lacks the ability to function in real world settings. I am sure your posts make you feel powerful, but I hope in real life you have a bit more compassion than you have shown to all of us. Don't forget, your words will live on long after you take your final dirt nap, and anyone who reads this thread won't need my book to form an opinion of you. I will chalk it up to your attempt at dry wit and not really a reflection of your real character.

I agree with Dick, and I would hope that this discussion can discuss collectors and how they handled their sources.   One item that has always struck me about these songs is that in their original setting, as family heirlooms so to speak, could you place a value on it? These were songs that were not used as a source of income for the singer (for the most part), what would constitute "fair" compensation? If I choose to share something that has no immediate financial value, would it be fair to expect something later?

Also, for songs that were shared in the folk tradition, is it fair for one source singer to take credit? Was Frank Proffit the only person singing Tom Dooley before he shared it with the Warners?    Perhaps someone who knows the story more intimately cold share their thoughts, I am really curious.

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 31 May 07 - 12:15 PM

Ron-
Grayson and Whitter recorded Tom Dooley well before Frank Warner collected it from Frank Proffit.

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: M.Ted
Date: 31 May 07 - 12:25 PM

Diane--Here is a story for *you*--I heard it a few years back, at a music industry event--the teller was a man who was so important that when he told it, everyone stopped talking to listen--and they got the message!

Years ago, in a series of television interviews, a certain once-popular recording artist blamed his impoverished situation on a specific record producer, who he claimed had robbed him, and had lied to him, and had tricked him into signing away "rights", and all other sorts of terrible things--

His story made such an impact that the specific record producer (who had not fallen on hard times at all) received many angry letters and threatening postcards. He was "told off" on the street, and he could not dine out, because ill-wishers interrupted his dessert.

After a few weeks of humilation, the record producer was approached by a representative of the artist, who suggested a comprehensive array of projects, including a new album, a retrospective boxed set, and an MTV special. Of course, a healthy cash advance was asked for, and a signing bonus--because his client was "starving"--

The producer said, "If your fat-mouthed client is starving, I have a suggestion: he can go eat shit!"

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad
Date: 31 May 07 - 12:37 PM

Way off base, M Ted.
No need for that!

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 May 07 - 12:52 PM

Ron Olesko:

Joking?

That just typifies how little you know of the sufferings and losses of the artists, and how appalling your lack of care is if you think it's a laughing matter.
And I am not 'defending a position'. What's to defend?
I'm explaining, for the kazillionth time and as many others have also done what you are apparently too dim/obtuse to acknowledge: people have lost livelihoods, work opportunities, their intellectual property and their lives.
Obviously I'm angry - and with massive justification - at your trivialising sneer that all the artists have to do is negotiate a new contract. How fatuous.
And as for compassion, how dare you utter the word?
And what makes you think YOU want some?
Doesn't come into it. The entire Leader/Trailer lost catalogue is printed out in the Bright Phoebus thread. Go and weep over that and the artists still living who are affected. If you know how.



M.Ted:

You have to be completely and utterly sick in the head to equate this tale with the experience of the artists caught in the CM scandal.
Whoever you are, you deserve your 'tires' slashed


Jim Brannigan:

Sorry, can't last more than 3 bars of Star Of The County Down, especially at that tempo.

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 31 May 07 - 01:06 PM

Dick Greenhaus,

Why did I bother?

Ordinarily I would simply have lurked this thread briefly.

I've learned that the appearance of certain sets of names in a thread guarantees that it won't go anywhere that I want to go.

Against my better judgment I added by 2 cents. The question the thread was intended to address is one that I as a traditional musician and collector, and my friends who are traditional musicians and collectors, care about.

Live and learn,

Russ (Permanent GUEST and lurker)

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 31 May 07 - 01:13 PM

Russ-
I'm glad you did bother.I think that the question is an important one. I'm thinking of opening a moderated thread on the subject just to keep off the irrelevancies. What think you?

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad
Date: 31 May 07 - 01:14 PM

Oh no! Diane doesn't like my singing.
Diane: Please give me another chance. I'll go back to the studio and slow it down for you. Anything!
Please say you'll be my friend!!
PLEASE!

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 May 07 - 01:27 PM

. . . and 'twas the OP who mentioned 'morality', not me.

I tend to use the word 'ethical'.

Morality (or lack thereof) is especially apt for those absorbed in money-grabbing commerce or getting hold of CDs by purely selfishly-motivated means and no consideration whatsoever for the performer, whether the source carrier or the recording artist.

Which is probably why it was chosen in the first place.

Whatever. The 'permanent guest' is right about that question the thread was meant to address is being sidelined. This is because of those out only for what they can get for themselves and sod the actual performers and anyone on their side.

Yes, Dick Greenhouse, do start a musbiz thread on how best to screw artists. I know you think they're irrelevant. Just what we need. I'll be there to put you right.

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad
Date: 31 May 07 - 01:33 PM

Ethical... hmmm! So what kind of ethics are you exercising when you choose to insult a performers interpretation of a song, on a public forum such as this?

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 31 May 07 - 01:39 PM

If you are talking abour your own effort, well I didn't listen to it, as I said.
It might have been quite good, if you like very uptempo renditions of SOTCD, which I don't.
There are many, many other settings of this tune which I prefer.
You could spend a lifetime collecting just Dives & Lazarus.
And certain people could make a career of nicking it and making a packet.
In fact, they already have.

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad
Date: 31 May 07 - 01:41 PM

So I searched "Diane Easby" and to my complete and utter amazement, all I found were several links to forums such as this one, where you take time out of your day to go around picking fights and insulting people.
And I thought I was special.
Heck: You never even noticed me.
Not even a little speed bump an your merry trail.
Hmmmph!

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad
Date: 31 May 07 - 01:46 PM

"If you are talking about your own effort, well I didn't listen to it, as I said"
So, you didn't make it all the way through the first few bars of my lovely wife's fiddling to hear me sing and based on that, you not only formed your opinion but chose to air it, publicly!
You're the Countess, aren't you!
Eh?
You are. I know you are.
You must be. There cannot be two of you!

Subject: RE: morality of collecting
From: Jim Lad
Date: 31 May 07 - 01:47 PM

And I will not give you 100