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BS: Death

MBSLynne 30 May 07 - 01:32 PM
Amos 30 May 07 - 01:36 PM
Skivee 30 May 07 - 01:51 PM
JennyO 30 May 07 - 01:56 PM
Rapparee 30 May 07 - 02:00 PM
Bee 30 May 07 - 02:21 PM
Mrrzy 30 May 07 - 02:27 PM
katlaughing 30 May 07 - 02:27 PM
Ebbie 30 May 07 - 02:57 PM
Little Hawk 30 May 07 - 03:25 PM
Desdemona 30 May 07 - 04:14 PM
kendall 30 May 07 - 04:28 PM
MBSLynne 30 May 07 - 05:03 PM
Jean(eanjay) 30 May 07 - 05:08 PM
Big Phil 30 May 07 - 05:31 PM
katlaughing 30 May 07 - 05:51 PM
Alba 30 May 07 - 06:02 PM
Janie 30 May 07 - 06:26 PM
GUEST,wordy 30 May 07 - 06:45 PM
Big Al Whittle 30 May 07 - 06:48 PM
GUEST,wordy 30 May 07 - 06:59 PM
Greg B 30 May 07 - 07:02 PM
Amos 30 May 07 - 07:06 PM
GUEST,wordy 30 May 07 - 07:14 PM
katlaughing 30 May 07 - 07:38 PM
John O'L 30 May 07 - 07:39 PM
GUEST,meself 30 May 07 - 07:40 PM
frogprince 30 May 07 - 09:47 PM
Janie 30 May 07 - 09:59 PM
Sorcha 30 May 07 - 11:12 PM
JennyO 30 May 07 - 11:34 PM
Greg B 30 May 07 - 11:56 PM
Liz the Squeak 31 May 07 - 12:33 AM
open mike 31 May 07 - 12:58 AM
John O'L 31 May 07 - 01:55 AM
Ruth Archer 31 May 07 - 04:20 AM
Grab 31 May 07 - 08:44 AM
GUEST,meself 31 May 07 - 12:35 PM
Amos 31 May 07 - 12:44 PM
Scoville 31 May 07 - 01:51 PM
GUEST,Partridge 31 May 07 - 02:32 PM
MBSLynne 31 May 07 - 03:46 PM
Bee 31 May 07 - 06:13 PM
Pistachio 31 May 07 - 07:48 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 31 May 07 - 08:28 PM
Ebbie 31 May 07 - 08:33 PM
Ebbie 31 May 07 - 08:34 PM
Amos 31 May 07 - 08:42 PM
KT 31 May 07 - 10:53 PM
Janie 31 May 07 - 11:09 PM
Ebbie 31 May 07 - 11:32 PM
Amos 31 May 07 - 11:58 PM
Little Hawk 01 Jun 07 - 12:06 AM
GUEST,Partridge 01 Jun 07 - 01:13 AM
MBSLynne 01 Jun 07 - 04:55 AM
mouldy 01 Jun 07 - 05:24 AM
GUEST,meself 01 Jun 07 - 07:42 AM
GUEST,Noddy 01 Jun 07 - 09:36 AM
GUEST,Keinstein 01 Jun 07 - 10:02 AM
GUEST,meself 01 Jun 07 - 10:07 AM
Amos 01 Jun 07 - 10:08 AM
JennyO 01 Jun 07 - 10:10 AM
Grab 01 Jun 07 - 10:54 AM
Ebbie 01 Jun 07 - 12:03 PM
KT 01 Jun 07 - 10:59 PM
Peace 01 Jun 07 - 11:02 PM
Big Mick 01 Jun 07 - 11:29 PM
ragdall 01 Jun 07 - 11:43 PM
Amos 02 Jun 07 - 12:28 AM
Ebbie 02 Jun 07 - 11:56 AM
GUEST,meself 02 Jun 07 - 12:41 PM
Ebbie 02 Jun 07 - 02:22 PM
Partridge 03 Jun 07 - 06:07 AM
Nessie 03 Jun 07 - 08:24 AM
Mooh 03 Jun 07 - 09:03 AM
BanjoRay 03 Jun 07 - 09:39 AM
Ruth Archer 03 Jun 07 - 09:56 AM
GUEST,meself 03 Jun 07 - 09:58 AM
rock chick 03 Jun 07 - 05:38 PM
GUEST,PMB 11 Jun 07 - 07:01 AM
Rapparee 11 Jun 07 - 09:46 AM
Amos 11 Jun 07 - 11:28 AM
katlaughing 11 Jun 07 - 11:29 AM
GUEST,Keinstein 11 Jun 07 - 11:49 AM
Rapparee 11 Jun 07 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,meself 11 Jun 07 - 12:26 PM
Amos 11 Jun 07 - 12:36 PM
Sorcha 11 Jun 07 - 03:46 PM
Rapparee 11 Jun 07 - 05:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Jun 07 - 05:57 PM
Rapparee 11 Jun 07 - 06:40 PM
GUEST,Cake 12 Jun 07 - 10:13 AM
Rapparee 13 Jun 07 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,meself 13 Jun 07 - 09:31 AM
JennyO 13 Jun 07 - 11:19 AM
Rapparee 13 Jun 07 - 11:54 AM
MBSLynne 13 Jun 07 - 04:51 PM
GUEST,meself 13 Jun 07 - 05:16 PM
GUEST,DEATH 13 Jun 07 - 06:25 PM
Richard Bridge 13 Jun 07 - 06:25 PM
GUEST,meself 13 Jun 07 - 06:39 PM
Rapparee 13 Jun 07 - 10:41 PM

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Subject: BS: Death
From: MBSLynne
Date: 30 May 07 - 01:32 PM

I just wanted to comment on something I've noticed and see what other people have to say. I saw a dead cow today and noticed something I've noticed before. She was lying still in the stall and from the way she was lying could have been asleep but, though I could only see her tail as she was covered with a blanket, having been ill, I knew immediately that she was dead. Alright, there is no breathing movement, but that is often only minimal anyway. There is just something missing from a dead creature that makes it so obviously dead. I assume humans are the same though I've never seen a dead person. The stillness of death is different from living stillness.

Love Lynne


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Amos
Date: 30 May 07 - 01:36 PM

Well, without getting into controversial metaphysics, I have to agree with you, Lynne, and I have observed the same qualitative difference in human death. A meat body without a "driver" is so clearly just mass, mechanism, inert and about as lively as a cold rock, that it is palpable.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Skivee
Date: 30 May 07 - 01:51 PM

From observing several friend's funerals and the deaths of a few family members, it seems to me that people sorta shrink after death... a balloon deflating.
It makes me wonder whether a soul has volume.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: JennyO
Date: 30 May 07 - 01:56 PM

Reminds me of the first time I saw a dead person. I was 21, and it was my grandfather. They had his body on view in the front room (not something I would choose to do) but I didn't stay long. As soon as I looked at him, my only thought was "He's not there any more".

This wasn't anything to do with religious belief - at that stage I was quite undecided about what I believed. It was just something I immediately sensed - it was just as Amos described it. Thinking about it now, I suppose I would say it's the life force that has left - but that's just my interpretation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 May 07 - 02:00 PM

When I was five and brought to see my father's body I remember not feeling anything except "That's not daddy." Three years later I felt the same thing at my Grandfather's funeral. Since then I've been to many (too many!) funerals and each time I feel that same way as I did when I was five.

The "person" is gone; only meat remains.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Bee
Date: 30 May 07 - 02:21 PM

Death becomes obvious fairly soon, I think, but certainly not always right away. I was right beside my aunt when she died, and I could certainly not tell the moment she died, and really saw very little, besides, of course, her not breathing, to immediately say 'she is dead.

I think perhaps we are more aware of breath, which is with us continually while we live, than we realise. Breath moves everything; it stirs the hairs on human skin, and the fur on an animal, animates the body, and when it is stopped, that subtle motion ends. Besides that, the flow of blood, another constant motion, stops, and that too is a process I think we notice when it is stopped.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 May 07 - 02:27 PM

I've seen a dead person outside of a funeral - it was after a car-pedestrian crash, and although pedestrian was intact, he was obviously dead, I thought. There was a degree of relaxed-ness coupled with an uncomfortable-looking position...


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 May 07 - 02:27 PM

Or a shell...we took my three year old grandson to the cemetery this past weekend to put flowers on the graves of my mom and other relatives. We had a lovely discussion about crabs and how they choose new shells for their homes and how we believe people do the same with bodies and reincarnation, although I didn't get that wordy or deeply into with him.

I was a little concerned he might be freaked out about people being under the ground, but he was fine and enjoyed placing the flowers. He knew we were there to *see* my mom and grandparents. When I started to cry a bit he came over and said, "Oh, don't be sad. It's alright. I'm not dead." Then talked me into going for a little walk, telling me "it'll be okay."

I have friends who have seen the "silver cord" part from a body when someone passed on in their presence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 May 07 - 02:57 PM

The thing that strikes me in a dead body is how flat it is.

I haven't seen a silver cord (Wouldn't a "silver chord" be lovely?) but I havebeen practically jostled by unseen beings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 May 07 - 03:25 PM

My father noted the same thing about many people he saw killed during the war. He said that it was clear the "person" wasn't there anymore...just an inert piece of meat.

He also said that he saw people's souls leaving their bodies at the moment of death. Oddly enough, though, throughout his life he had no spiritual beliefs. I mean absolutely none. Zip. He was simply not interested in anything that was not physical.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Desdemona
Date: 30 May 07 - 04:14 PM

Katlaughing, I really like your crab analogy, very sensible and succinct, especially for children.

For my part, I think of what we're discussing as the presence of absence; a sort of palpable sense of "not thereness." My dad passed away a few months ago, and I opted not to look at the body, because I knew that it just wasn't him; my kids all felt the same way, and I told them that was fine. As far as I'm concerned, it's not much different than opening up the closet and looking at their old clothes.

~D


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: kendall
Date: 30 May 07 - 04:28 PM

The first time I saw a dead person I was about 6 years old. He was a neighbor who used to talk about T. Roosevelt and the Rough Riders. There was a tobacco tin with a picture of a horseman riding a jumper and just clearing the top bars of a fence.
I haven't thought of him in years.
I saw him laid out in his parlor with pennies on his eyes. I was too young for that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: MBSLynne
Date: 30 May 07 - 05:03 PM

Ebbie, whenever I hear the phrase 'silver cord' from now on, I will think of it as 'silver chord'.

I've heard a lot of people, including my Mum say that when they've seen dead bodies the person is 'not there'.

Yes Bee, it may be the absence of all the continual movements such as breath and blood. Certainly as I looked at the dead cow trying to work out why it was so obviously dead, it was the total stillness that was noticeable. I guess however still a live thing is, it is never completely still really

Love Lynne


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 30 May 07 - 05:08 PM

I saw both of my parents dead and in some ways it was reassuring; they obviously were no longer there. It makes it much easier to deal with when their body is taken away.

I rather like the idea of the soul leaving the body. I'd love to have seen a silver cord.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Big Phil
Date: 30 May 07 - 05:31 PM

Must agree with many of the posts, the human body remains, but there is something missing, be it soul, human presance or some other sign of life. Hard to explain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 May 07 - 05:51 PM

In the tradition I follow, we call it the Vital Life Force.

Thanks, Desdemona, it makes a lot of sense to kids, esp.:-)

Ebbie, me, too, about the silver "chord"...I shall always think of it that way, now!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Alba
Date: 30 May 07 - 06:02 PM

The vessel is now left behind and the energy it once contained moves on. That is how I feel when in the compnay of the dead.

The pennies on the eyes is something I remember vividly when looking at the departed when I was young. To pay the Ferryman to get to the afterlife I was told. Seemed to make sense to me then!
Nowdays I see a dead body as void of the Essence/Energy that made the, when breathing, Being who they were.

I like Kat's explanation to her Grandson *smile*

Love and Light as always to all,
Jude


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Janie
Date: 30 May 07 - 06:26 PM

Absolute stillness. It goes beyond not breathing. Inanimate.

Literally lifeless.

Janie


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 30 May 07 - 06:45 PM

All that's missing is a beating heart and a working brain. The brain dies and that's it. The rest is superstition or fear. We are meat like the cows we eat when their heart stops. Of course the person "isn't there", because the brain is dead. We are the same as all our fellow creatures, except we can reason and so we invent "souls". As the original poster points out, there is a stillness and and an absence in a dead cow just like in a dead human.Yes, the cow's heart and brain are dead. There is no mystery. However, if it helps you cope with death to believe there is then I don't see that it does any harm unless it's tied in with organised religion and the damage that does to us all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 May 07 - 06:48 PM

I dunno - are you sure you're just not seeing what you already know?

Otherwise how would you get all these stories about people waking up on the post mortem table - and it has happened.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 30 May 07 - 06:59 PM

If they woke up they weren't clinically dead. Obviously.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Greg B
Date: 30 May 07 - 07:02 PM

Well, that's put a bit of a damper on the evening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Amos
Date: 30 May 07 - 07:06 PM

All that's missing is a beating heart and a working brain. The brain dies and that's it. The rest is superstition or fear. We are meat like the cows we eat when their heart stops. Of course the person "isn't there", because the brain is dead.

I suggest your conclusive judgement may turn out to be premature. Your diagnosis of life as only electro-mechanical leaves huge holes in the picture with no answers except a glaze-eyed retreat into undefined complexity theory. It is perfectly all right NOT to know for sure; but it is a bit abrasive to aggressively know something that very well might not be so.

One reason is that the implications of your perspective are both inexplicable and grim.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 30 May 07 - 07:14 PM

"but it is a bit abrasive to aggressively know something that very well might not be so".

Isn't that the position of people of faith Amos?

Interestingly in the british "Independent" newsaper today scientists report that research shows that animals have individual personalities just like us. All those of us who own pets have known this. So, do animals have souls? Was my cat when she was put down any different to my mother when dead? I felt the loss of both personalities deeply, but either both have "souls" or neither? Take your choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 May 07 - 07:38 PM

It's never an "either/or," there is always a third choice in most given situations. Sometimes we just have to look a little deeper.

As for animals and people...it is my belief everything has a consciousness and is a part of the Divine/Great Spirit, thus it has a soul/spirit.

I really don't like the use of the word "meat" to describe a left-behind body. Most of us are not cannibals, so it rubs me the wrong way. That's why I prefer "shell." Or, I guess one could say "husk."


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: John O'L
Date: 30 May 07 - 07:39 PM

I haven't had much experience with death, but for many years now it has been obvious to me as soon as I knock on the door of any empty house. There is no need to wait. It is clear that no-one's home.

I have tested this several times and have never been wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 30 May 07 - 07:40 PM

"Absolute stillness. It goes beyond not breathing. Inanimate.

Literally lifeless."

Dead as a doornail. Deader'n a mackerel. Done like yesterday's toast.

Elvis has left the building.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: frogprince
Date: 30 May 07 - 09:47 PM

"it's not much different than opening up the closet and looking at their old clothes."
Desdemona, I don't think it's really any different at all. A husk, or discarded clothes... I find either very appropriate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Janie
Date: 30 May 07 - 09:59 PM

O Death (from the Ralph Stanley version of "oh Brother, Where Art Thou?"

O, Death
O, Death
Won't you spare me over til another year
Well what is this that I can't see
With ice cold hands takin' hold of me
Well I am death, none can excel
I'll open the door to heaven or hell
Whoa, death someone would pray
Could you wait to call me another day
The children prayed, the preacher preached
Time and mercy is out of your reach
I'll fix your feet til you cant walk
I'll lock your jaw til you cant talk
I'll close your eyes so you can't see
This very air, come and go with me
I'm death I come to take the soul
Leave the body and leave it cold
To draw up the flesh off of the frame
Dirt and worm both have a claim
O, Death
O, Death
Won't you spare me over til another year
My mother came to my bed
Placed a cold towel upon my head
My head is warm my feet are cold
Death is a-movin upon my soul
Oh, death how you're treatin' me
You've close my eyes so I can't see
Well you're hurtin' my body
You make me cold
You run my life right outta my soul
Oh death please consider my age
Please don't take me at this stage
My wealth is all at your command
If you will move your icy hand
Oh the young, the rich or poor
Hunger like me you know
No wealth, no ruin, no silver no gold
Nothing satisfies me but your soul
O, death
O, death
Wont you spare me over til another year
Wont you spare me over til another year
Wont you spare me over til another year


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 May 07 - 11:12 PM

When his grandpa died our son, then 7, insisted upong going to the mortuary to see grandpa. No embalming done, and only 2 hrs after death.

We lifted him up to see, and he said.....

Oh, OK. Nobody home.

Out of the mouths of babes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: JennyO
Date: 30 May 07 - 11:34 PM

Well, when the Grim Reaper comes, I want to take a glass of wine and my car with me, like these people!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Greg B
Date: 30 May 07 - 11:56 PM

As I was a walking one morning at ease
A viewing the leaves as they fell from the trees
All in slow motion appearing to be
And those that had withered, they fell from the trees

What's the life of a man anymore than the leaves
A man has his season, so why should we grieve
Though all thru this life, we appear fine and gay
Like the leaves we will wither and soon fade away

If you'd seen the leaves just a few days ago
So beautiful and bright they all seemed to grow
A frost came upon them and withered them all
A storm came upon them and down they did fall

If you look in the churchyard, there you will see
Those that have passed like the leaves from the trees
When age and affliction upon us do fall
Like the leaves we must wither and down we must fall


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 31 May 07 - 12:33 AM

JennyO - that's fine, just eat the salmon mousse!

I've seen dead humans and dead animals and that image of deflation is right... both looked sort of... flat. Like looking at a glass of cola that's been left out all night. It's still the same vessel, the same contents, still the same juxtaposition, but it's no longer the same drink. Even if it does still bubble when you stir it, it won't be the same.

Even the morticians' art cannot replace that rounded, vibrant look that even the most decrepit body has. It doesn't matter how good they look, there is still always that something missing. Total stillness is the best description. We're not aware of the tiny movements we make, even when asleep or in a coma.. it's the absence of these that let us truly know that the character, the person, the loving part is no longer there.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: open mike
Date: 31 May 07 - 12:58 AM

when i was keeping vigil with my mom in the hospital for 8 days,
i read Elizabeth Kubler Ross, and some other books. One that was
the most helpful was Ran Dass' Still Here (he wrote Be Here Now)
One of the most vivid images (i have repeated this in several threads
here) was that of a person removing an uncomfortably tight shoe..
that was describing the soul leaving the body -- and it is comforting
to think that this is a relief to the one who passes on...not painful
or a struggle, but a blissful change!

I also sensed some sort of energy, sort of like a cloud or smoke,
hovering above my mother before she passed on. My dad had died
just the week before and it felt as if his spirit was visiting.
I remembered her saying that there was a book she wanted to read
"before she died" so i checked it out from the library for her.
She stayed alive longer than the medical people thought she would,
and i kept wondering "what is she waiting for?" I then realized
that maybe she sensed the absence of my daughters, her grand
daughters who were nearly 2,000 miles away. I began to make plans
for them to fly there, and when one of them was on the phone, i
held Mom's hand and told her the girls wanted her to know they loved
her. Then within a minute she took her last breath. I guess that
completed her circle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: John O'L
Date: 31 May 07 - 01:55 AM

My dad did that too. At the time he died three of his four children were in different countries overseas. He held out much longer than he should have until we were all there, and as soon as we were he died.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 31 May 07 - 04:20 AM

My grandmother, who raised me, was in declining health in America about a year and a half ago. I arrived from the UK for a visit, my first in over a year, with my daughter on the Wednesday; my uncle arrived from New York on the Saturday. She had us all there: her children, grandchild and great-grandchild. And on the Sunday, with no real warning, she slipped away. Nothing will ever convince me that she hadn't waited for us all, and I felt so privileged to be there at her time of passing.

I sat with her after she died, and before the undertakers arrived to take her away. That wasn't my grandmother lying on the sofa. As everyone else says, it was just a husk, or a shell. I have no spirituality of any kind, but that sense of there being a life force that had gone was very powerful indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Grab
Date: 31 May 07 - 08:44 AM

Lack of a beating heart will probably give you the "shrunkenness". No blood pressure.

Your diagnosis of life as only electro-mechanical leaves huge holes in the picture

Not necessarily. Electro-mechanical could adequately explain it all. So could the existence of a soul. The difference is that the first is subject to investigation to work out the rules (if any exist); the latter isn't. The existence of a soul also explicitly requires religion, because a primary purpose of religion is the explanation of life after death. If you believe in a soul from observation and then have found a religion which proposes the existence of a soul, then fair enough; but if you believe in a soul because that's what your religion tells you, then you're making a judgement based on faith, not evidence. And if you believe in a soul because you can't imagine life without souls existing, again that's faith-based.

This isn't to say that belief in souls is bad or wrong - just that it's entirely a matter of personal faith. The electro-mechanical hypothesis may have holes in it, but anything which comes down to faith is 100% hole because there can never be evidence in its favour.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 31 May 07 - 12:35 PM

There can never be SCIENTIFIC evidence, probably - but if you have seen a soul with your own two eyes, or communicated with a soul, that may be evidence enough for you.

A bit of an analogy - where I live, the "scientific" claim was long that there are no cougars hereabouts (a claim since modified or rescinded, I believe) - however, for just as long, there have been people who have claimed to have seen cougars on backroads, at the edge of their woodlots, etc. Now, if I were one of those people, I would certainly believe that cougars are around here, whatever scientific inquiry finds. Heck, if I laid eyes on a sasquatch, that would be evidence enough of their existence for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Amos
Date: 31 May 07 - 12:44 PM

IMHO a plain look at the attributes of elan vital that cannot be built into computational machinery (except on a shallow, tawdry emulative basis) is revealing.

Understanding
Intent
Sense of Being
Ability to create a vision of reality not previously recorded.

Hell even the ability to genuinely "decide" (not reach a binary conclusion but actually postulate a future of some degree).

These somehow are not things any robot has been able to acheive. Not to mention the sense of aesthetics, justice, and the abililty to see other viewpoints.

Our long and successful history as mechanics and investigators of electromechanical phenomena has committed us to continue to seek models that prove out on those terms, and so we will continue seeking a brain-from-circuits model as the whole answer to being and consciousness. IMHO, this is flagrant ignoral of a whole range of phenomena that does not fit the hypothesis and is dropped from the equation. As far as I am concerned this is just bad science at worst, or perhaps just deferred science at best.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Scoville
Date: 31 May 07 - 01:51 PM

I've never seen a dead anything I would have mistaken for asleep. Even newly-euthanized animals do not look asleep. They look dead. Whoever they were is gone. What's left is just the machinery, not the individual.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,Partridge
Date: 31 May 07 - 02:32 PM

click


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: MBSLynne
Date: 31 May 07 - 03:46 PM

Yes, total stillness describes it, but it's MORE than the stillness of, say, a table or any other object which has never had life. It is a stillness which I don't think I've seen in anything except a dead body.

When my dog had to be put down I held her as the vet gave her the injection and I knew the moment she had 'gone'.

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth..."

Love Lynne


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Bee
Date: 31 May 07 - 06:13 PM

I also held my dog as she was euthanised, and even expecting her to be dead, it was the stillness of her body and her unmoving eyes that told me she was gone. Perhaps I'm less sensitive than all of you who sense in some mysterious fashion life has gone, or who see silver cords or souls leaving.

Nevertheless, my grief is just as real as yours, perhaps more so, since I don't expect another meeting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Pistachio
Date: 31 May 07 - 07:48 PM

Thanks for that 'blicky' Partridge.
The only dead body I saw was my father-in-law, admittedly after his death from cancer. He appeared hollow and vacant. 'At rest'.
I wish I'd never gone to see him then because that is my final recurring image.
Stick to the photos and memories you have.

Mike, John and Ruth - thank you for sharing your 'final farewells'.
Greg, did you write that verse? I always love autumn leaves falling and reading those words has left me feeling strangely relieved. Thanks.
H.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 31 May 07 - 08:28 PM

"Death"

What a great title for a thread. I like it. Simple and straight to the point. There are two GREAT dramatic things in life. Those two are love and death. You ain't got no story worth readin' without 'em. That's my opinion.

I have seen a lotta death. Stiffs are common in my line of work. I have seen death by gunshot wound, strangulation, fallin' off tall buildings or out windows, gettin' run over by cars, trucks, and railroad trains, bein' bitten, bein' stabbed, gettin' blown up, poisoned, squashed, minced, smothered, drowned, and electrocuted. I have seen dead humans, dead gorillas, dead chimps, dead monkeys, dead orangutans, dead baboons, and dead dogs. Too bad about the chimps...

But I guess I would have to say that some of 'em deserved it.

The thing they all had in common was that they didn't have nothin' to say after they was dead. Not a friggin' word.

So if you want some peace and quiet, just hang out with some stiffs now and then.

One more point. If it was not for violent death, I would probably be on the bread line. My most lucrative cases have all involved situations that brought with 'em a certain amount of mayhem.

I concur with what most of the folks here have said. A dead body is just a vacated hunk of meat. The personality that was in it has departed to a better place....or a worse one. That's how I figger it. I got my fingers crossed when it comes my time. I am tryin' to do at least one good deed a day and I don't rob poor boxes or drink when I'm in church. A guy can't be too careful about stuff like that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 May 07 - 08:33 PM

"And now you rest in Autumn's radiance
Like the last few lingering leaves
You hear a distant, whispering voice
Carried softly on the breeze
You turn your ear away
You hold on tight, and yet you know
Like the last leaf on the Autumn branch
Comes a time you must let go."

Kathy Martin Fanning


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 May 07 - 08:34 PM

Hmmmm. Not all of thet was delivered. I credited Changin' of the Seasons
Kathy Martin Fanning


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Amos
Date: 31 May 07 - 08:42 PM

Thanks so much for that site!

AN excerpt:

"Some scientists theorize that NDEs are produced by brain chemistry. But, Dr. Peter Fenwick, a neuropsychiatrist and the leading authority in Britain concerning NDEs, believes that these theories fall far short of the facts. In the documentary, "Into the Unknown: Strange But True," Dr. Fenwick describes the state of the brain during a NDE:

"The brain isn't functioning. It's not there. It's destroyed. It's abnormal. But, yet, it can produce these very clear experiences ... an unconscious state is when the brain ceases to function. For example, if you faint, you fall to the floor, you don't know what's happening and the brain isn't working. The memory systems are particularly sensitive to unconsciousness. So, you won't remember anything. But, yet, after one of these experiences [a NDE], you come out with clear, lucid memories ... This is a real puzzle for science. I have not yet seen any good scientific explanation which can explain that fact."


"The modern tradition of equating death with an ensuing nothingness can be abandoned. For there is no reason to believe that human death severs the quality of the oneness in the universe." - Larry Dossey, MD "


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: KT
Date: 31 May 07 - 10:53 PM

Once, while walking in the mountains, I came upon a large stellar jay on the side of the road. It looked up at me as I approached and I could see that although there were no apparent injuries, it was immobile. Its dark eyes were bright with awareness, and stayed on me as I knelt down nearby. After ten minutes or so, it suddenly gave one mighty flutter of its wings, then became very still. As its wings came to rest again, the light left the eyes as though a switch had been turned off. The shell was still there on the side of the road, but that spirit was gone.

It's the same with people, and all life. When the body that houses them, is no longer of any use to them, no longer needed, they depart.

kat, I liked your crab analogy, too. Ebbie, I like those words!

KT


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Janie
Date: 31 May 07 - 11:09 PM

Lynne, I wonder if it the total stillness bumping into our knowledge, awareness, and expectation that the form we are looking at is/was inhabited by sentience. The 'deathness' of a mammal body is always very striking, even shocking to me. In descending order, I am much less attuned to the 'deadness' vs. the scentience of birds, reptiles, fish, insects and plants when I see their dead bodies.

I think both our personal relationship and the degree to which we identify with the type of sentience and/or consciousness of a thing that is dead that was alive affects our perception. I have not always been able to tell absolutely whether a goldfish in the tank was actually dead.

When I have held a pet as it was euthanized, the exact moment the life force left the body was unmistakable. I have seen animals violently and instantly killed by cars or dogs, and it was also very apparent and abrupt when death occurred. I held my sister as she died very painfully and fearfully, and have held beloved pets as they died with struggle, awareness, and pain. In all of those instances, with the consciousness struggling, fighting, fearing, the exact point at which the body was totally uninhabited was not so clear. Perhaps the struggle to continue to live in the face of the pain and panic, combined with the awareness of dying led to the sentience of the body not ceasing all at once.

Janie


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 May 07 - 11:32 PM

When it comes my time I plan to go peacefully, even eagerly. I've told friends that if my body is found dead and there is a grimace on the face, keep in mind: That's a smile!. It is an inevitable crossroads so I hope to enjoy it. I forget who the writer was who just minutes before his death said, And now, for the great mystery...

And I want to go with music. (Ya hear me, KT?)

By the way, I too like those words. *G*


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Amos
Date: 31 May 07 - 11:58 PM

It can't be much worse than graduating from high school... :) But seriously, I love life and do not, at present, want to see it end prematurely. I guess no-one does who is living with energy. But when that passage--an adventure, more like-- does come up, I hope i can leap it in a clean, simple bound, without much lingering, leaving behind as much order as possible and a message not to mourn my adventuring.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 12:06 AM

I think the degree of sentience is quite significant, Janie. Good point.

There has been a lot of great stuff on this thread so far.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,Partridge
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 01:13 AM

I was with my father when he died. He was being monitored by loads of machines that watched his blood pressure, heart rate, oxygen levels ad infinitum..........as he slowly departed all these indicaters of life just stopped. And so did he, it was as if he just stepped away.

Pat x


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: MBSLynne
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 04:55 AM

Yes Ebbie...the music you will be accompanied by will obviously be the silver chord!

Little Hawk, I knew if I chucked something like this amongst Mudcatters they'd come up with some good stuff!

I'm not afraid of dying, just of any pain beforehand. My gt Uncle, aged 87, went shopping, came home, vacuumed their flat, said to his wife "I feel really tired", sat down in a chair and went to sleep and that was it.

Love Lynne


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: mouldy
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 05:24 AM

I was helping my ailing mother to walk to the toilet, when she dropped dead in my arms. I knew she was dead, even though the kids and I went through the procedures of CPR and calling the ambulance.

It wasn't long after everyone left her in peace that the subtle change was noticed. As has been said before: nobody home. The ambulance crew said that you could nearly always see a change shortly after death.

As regards fear of dying - what's the use of being scared: it's the one thing we're all sure of! With me it's not so much the dying, but not knowing the how or the when.
My recently departed husband held no fear of dying, only of becoming incapacitated. He wasn't that bothered about the "when" either, as far as I could tell.

Andrea


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 07:42 AM

I don't know ... I like these story-book endings as much as anybody, but I don't think anyone should count on a charming death - some last words of wisdom and resignation, slipping quietly away from the family that surrounds the bed and into the arms of angels (to the sound of a silver chord). Seems to me that for an awful lot of people, there's much misery and suffering at the end of life. (And it's not their fault).


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,Noddy
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 09:36 AM

I can wait a bit longer yet....I hope.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,Keinstein
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 10:02 AM

The weight loss at death story is nothing more than that- a myth. Though "evidence" complete with references has been manufactured by those with an axe to grind. But, if Lynne is right, and animals show a similar qualitative change at death, it is something that is easily tested. We could set up a closed system of a chamber containing an animal, and a dose of lethal gas connected via a valve.

The animal should for preference be one that can be expected to have a significant mass of soul. We would expect human souls to be heavier, pro rata, than those of rats, say, but those animals with "nearly human" characteristics should maximize the effect. Let us choose dogs- perhaps Labradors that "understand every word" you say.

The system is weighed while the animal is alive, then the valve is opened. As we have only transferred mass from one part of the closed system to another, any weight loss must be due to the incorporeal soul. As animal souls are assumed to be very light compared to human, the weighing system must be as accurate as possible, and to ensure a significant result, the experiment should be repeated many times.

Two controls can be set up to eliminate spuriae: a chamber with pure air instead of lethal gas, and a chamber with lethal gas but an already dead dog (which could be re- used from a previous run of the experiment).

If a null result is obtained, it could be taken as meaning that animals have no souls, or that animal souls have no mass. In which case the only option is to repeat the preocedure using humans. Perhaps pedophiles, Democrats or Boston Red Sox supporters would be considered acceptably disposable.

It may sound cruel, but as the existence or otherwise of the soul has been the cause of much conflict, a definitive answer to at least this aspect would be in the long term advantageous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 10:07 AM

Um ... yeah ... I think I'd rather see the funding directed to the research I've recommended on another thread, on the relative merits of beer-from-a-bottle as opposed to beer-from-a-glass ... Anyone with me?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Amos
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 10:08 AM

Hahahah...your association of classes (pedophiles and Democrats) is highly suspect, chum. But aside from that, it strikes me that there is no reason to assume the soul has mass per se. It is possible that it does exert mass.

But. BTW, the original observations that concluded there was a definite mass (equivalent IIRC to a couple of ounces weight) to the soul was not undertaken fraudulently. But it was done in the nineteenth century, and with poor scientific controls, so the data is in effect worthless. But that is a very different thing.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: JennyO
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 10:10 AM

Yep, I'm in. Sounds like a very worthy enterprise, meself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Grab
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 10:54 AM

A bit of an analogy - where I live, the "scientific" claim was long that there are no cougars hereabouts (a claim since modified or rescinded, I believe)...

Fair nuff. But the point of "scientific" claims is that they're open to disproval - in your example, by cougar scat, claw and tooth marks on dead animals, video cameras in likely places, or reports of sightings by people with sufficient experience to know what they're seeing. The "electromechanical" hypothesis for awareness (or whatever you choose to call it) is open to disproval once the structures and operating mechanisms in the brain are understood. If there isn't a way that this could create awareness, this hypothesis fails.

The problem with the "soul" hypothesis is that by definition it's unprovable. Some philosophies claim provability, notably psychics who claim to be able to contact the dead. To date they're short on provable successes. And in fact, if anyone *does* prove the existence of souls and the existence (or non-existence) of an afterlife, every major religion will be defunct overnight, because religion requires faith, not proof.

That's why it's called the last great adventure. If you *know* there's life after death, your only question is what it's going to be like. If you don't even know whether it exists, it really is the unknown. And I'm pretty sure even most strongly-religious people still have the question at the back of their minds - the nagging feeling you get before an abseil of "is this rope going to hold me?"

But I'm with Lynne on the subject of death. It doesn't scare me, but I hope I don't suffer (and that those dear to me don't suffer). We've got living wills to try to prevent this.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 12:03 PM

I see no reason to think that a soul has weight. How heavy is a thought?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: KT
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 10:59 PM

right, Ebbie. Or love?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Peace
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 11:02 PM

"It is possible that it [the soul] does exert mass."

I thought the priest or minister did that . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 11:29 PM

Ebbie, m'luv, if I don't leave before you, I will sing at your gathering. But you got to come sing at mine if'n I split first. Deal?

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: ragdall
Date: 01 Jun 07 - 11:43 PM

I held my cat as he was "put to sleep". It's impossible not to notice a big difference between the animal in sleep and in death. Theological implications aside, I think it is a result of the Autonomic Nervous System shutting down. Even in sleep, the body is "functioning". In death it is not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 12:28 AM

Beings (sometimes known as "souls") can be in a wide spectrum of states. In the sorrier end of that spectrum they can get to acting very much like material mass does, as a result of too many pushme-pullyou adventures, overwhelms, omissions and commissions with blame or guilt attached, and so on. And they exert quite a lot of pressure just by directing energuy when they are in good shape. So it wouldn't surprise me to see a couple of ounces difference at the moment of departure.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 11:56 AM

How much does a bucket of air weigh? If there is a difference between the weight of a live person and the weight of that person just died my inclination would be to believe inflated lungs and pathways weigh more than deflated ones.

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? *G*

Big Mick, keeping in mind that you have a L O N G way to travel, agreed!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 12:41 PM

"How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

A meaningless question if we don't know the size of the pin. Are we talking about one of those little pins that populate brand-new cheap-sale button-down shirts, or one of those rather larger ones that fix loose edges of the firmament to the fabric of the cosmos?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 02:22 PM

But then, meself, we have to know too the size of the average angel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Partridge
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 06:07 AM

Do they know how to dance?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Nessie
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 08:24 AM

My father's last words were 'That was nice soup' before he quietly slumped over with a heart attack (nothing to do with my mother's cooking!). Whilst waiting for the ambulance she noticed the cat's eyes suddenly go as large as saucers and it's hair stand on end before backing out of the room. That's when she realised Dad had slipped away.
I've only witnessed the death of small squeaky or fluttery things rescued from the cat, but it's unmistakeable when the life leaves them. Like KT says, it's in the eyes, as if a switch has been turned off.
I'd accepted that you just 'know' when something is dead without giving it any thought, so I've found this thread interesting Lynne, death being such a taboo subject normally.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Mooh
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 09:03 AM

We spoken of death here a lot, though maybe not in this way. This will be hard for me. Thanks for the opportunity to vent, thanks for the therapy.

One morning as I climbed from bed the celtic cross that I had worn on a silver chain around my neck suddenly fell off and hit the floor. I thought it weird but simply picked it up and put it on my dresser. A few minutes later my mother telephoned to say that Dad had died. Dad, a clergyman, had worn a similar cross much of his life. Deeper meaning? I don't know.

A day or two later I saw Dad's body at the funeral home (we and he had refused to have the body touched except to have him robed in his alb, representing the only thing he felt he could leave this world with that he hadn't entered it with) and since the body had been kept cold...well, HE just wasn't there. No presence. No casket or coffin, no preparation of the body, just a trip to wherever to be cremated...HE was long since departed.

I was at Mum's side when she passed away, and with her body for a couple of hours, but it was real obvious that when she died the body had changed and that as with Dad, the body stopped having any real significance to me. No presence. Photographs have more life, perhaps for the memories attached, perhaps psychologically...maybe photos do take some of the soul...In any event, it didn't and doesn't matter to me what happens to the body except that it not burden us with its disposal. The ashes of my parents and my sister were put in their favourite water where at least symbolically their bodies can reside forever, their souls departed. I want my ashes to be put there too.

I never saw my sister after she died, but in my last visit with her she seemed to want to escape her cancer riddled body. She wasn't able to speak, but her eyes were wild with intent to escape the drugs and, I believe, this world. She was the most vibrant of people in life but it was over for her and she knew it. I can't describe how much I miss her, but in the end her death was mercy.

How happy I am to live in the photographic age where we can support our memories with pictures of happiness...and maybe retain a glimpse of their souls.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: BanjoRay
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 09:39 AM

Surgeons don't "know" when people die on the operating table. All they can do is look at the signs - the pulse, the instruments, the body temperature, the breath etc. When experience tells them that any further resuscitation is likely to be useless then the theatre staff will agree that the time has come to stop. No magic departures or golden c(h)ords.
I've attempted to resuscitate a guy who dropped in the street (I had to push aside a crowd who just looked down at the guy, doing nothing). I couldn't feel a pulse, but that means nothing - pulses are often hard to find. He wasn't breathing so I tried the kiss of life, and chest compression to no avail. The ambulance arrived and they picked him up and carried him off. I didn't know whether he was dead. I never found out whether I'd helped - I rang the hospital, but they wouldn't tell me anything.
Somebody'd also stolen my shopping while I was trying to help the guy.
That wouldn't stop me doing it again, though - this life is all that we know we have. Anything else is conjecture based on very dubious evidence - read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins to find out how much bollocks has been said and thought over the centuries by people with no evidence.
There's nothing wrong with death - I've been dead for billions of years before being born, and I don't remember a thing about it. When I die I have no reason to believe I'll know anything about that either. Neither will you...
So have some fun and forget about it.
Cheers
Ray


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 09:56 AM

"How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

"Do they know how to dance?"

More importantly, is it Cotswold, Border or Northwest?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 09:58 AM

You mean - Morris dancing!? Next I suppose you're going to tell me they play more accordians than harps ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: rock chick
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 05:38 PM

Having seen two very close people draw their last breath from my experience I can say that once the soul has left the body all you see is an empty shell. This is a very strange experience to encounter, I truly believe once you die our sprit/ soul moves on somewhere and the body that once was host to that sprit /soul is just an empty shell.

rc


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 07:01 AM

I've seen people moving and breathing after their "soul" has left them. My former good friend Dave had a heart attack and suffered massive, irreversible brain damage. What's left is certainly no longer Dave- although he can speak, he utters nothing but automatic commonplaces. He has no discernible interest in the world around him, and if you don't prompt him, he never initiates a transaction.

Memory's Ghost, by Philip J. Hilts, is a very good book to read on this subject- it concerns a young man whose hippocampus had been deliberately removed in an attempt to cure his epilepsy. Although he lived many years after that, his only knowledge was of the period prior to the operation, and the few seconds preceding the preesent moment.

Many people here want the soul to be a tangible, detectable thing, but I believe that it is a process of the brain, like the software of a computer (I'm not saying it is exactly like current computer software). Have you tried weighing your computer before and after installing software? Probably no, you know that there will not be a difference, as it is merely a rearrangement of states of magnetic domains, or electrons moved to different places in logic gates.

The brain of course is dynamic, and grows and shrinks physically, but the "soul" is the rearrangement of states of the organ, and can grow, shrink or depart completely without any detectable change other than in the behaviour of the whole organism.

So I'm quite happy to talk about the soul, though I would not normally choose to, as it is so easily misinterpreted- during life, it has all the attributes of the soul of religious belief, including temptation, possession and even a guardian angel- but these are all generated within or acquired as memes from without. As a process of the nervous system, it has no existence independently of the organism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:46 AM

Here's a few things I'll toss in:

1. Back when I set tombstones it wasn't a big deal in the cemeteries. Sure, it could be hotter'n...blazes...but overall it was a nice, quite job. And talking to the people I met was nice; they were curious about the work. There was no feeling of "haunting" or "creepiness." Except in one: the Jewish cemetery in town. THERE both my brother (who followed me in the job) and I felt a definite senses of "finish up and get out because you don't belong here." Apart from that there was nothing at all different between that cemetery and many others.

2. When my mother died, my youngest brother was with her. He knew she'd gone before the nurses noticed the instruments and he met my brother and sister coming from the "waiting room" area because they, too, knew Mom was gone. But here's the odd part: I was living in Ohio, a 14 hour drive away, and I awakened and told my wife that Mom was dead before the phone call came. And no, it's not a case of post hoc rememberance for we remarked on it at the time; in fact, I said to my brother who called, "Yes, I know." For some reason this has never surprised us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 11:28 AM

An interesting experiment conducted lately at the Institute for Noetic Sciences: a series of subjects observe screens on which there will be displayed either a pleasant image or a painful image. The image to be shown is chosen by random generation.

A high percentage of people -- statistically significant -- would start blinking faster (an expected response when viewing a painful image) when the painful images were presented. But they would routinely start to do so BEFORE the image was shown and even before the random generator had selected the image.

I don't have the hard numbers; the information is from an interviewer who was there last week.

The implication of this experiment is profound: that knowledge may be non-local in time and space and only made to appear local through the maintenance of individual filters or decisions to act as though it were.

This implication argues that knwoing is not, in the final analysis, a biochemical re-arrangement, but merely produces biochemical sequelae, much as intending to communicate (during a cell phone conversation, for example) produces electromagnetic sequelae. The ideation behind the communication is not necessarily an electromagnetic event.

Rapaire's remote knowing, mentioned above, is anecdotal, but the funny thing is that at a guess 70 or 80 poeple out of 100 will probably have some story of similar phenomena.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 11:29 AM

I had a similar experience when my mom passed on, Rapaire. I knew the hospital had called my sister, as she called me before she left for there. After alerting my other siblings, I went into meditation asking for help for both my mom and my sister as she was the only one who lived where mom was. We were four hours away by car. While meditating, I *saw* my mom in hospital with her family beckoning to her, her mom and pop, the brother who died in high school and whom she missed so much and her other siblings. I saw mom reach out to them and I *told* her it was okay, we would be alright, all of her children. At that moment I *knew* she had died and I noted the time. My sister's call, shortly after, comfirmed what I knew.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,Keinstein
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 11:49 AM

The "Institute for Noetic Sciences" oy! I'll believe it when someone credible replicates the experiment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 12:16 PM

J. S. Bell.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 12:26 PM

Joshua Bell? The violinist? Didn't he predict that if he played in a subway station, he would be ignored? And it came true?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 12:36 PM

Well, K, I have no idea where your sarcasm or antagonsim comes from; all I know is that the institute was founded by a retried astronaut and is reported tobe adherign to rigorous protocols. Haven't been there myself. HEre's anexcerpt from their web site:

"The vision for creating the Institute of Noetic Sciences came in 1971. Nations throughout the world had galvanized around the exciting frontier of space exploration. The potential for scientific understanding of our world seemed unlimited to a naval air captain named Edgar Mitchell. He was a pragmatic young test pilot, engineer and scientist; a mission to the moon on Apollo 14 was his "dream come true." Space exploration symbolized for Dr Mitchell what it did for his nation as a whole—technological triumph of historical proportions, unprecedented mastery of the world in which we live, and extraordinary potentials for new discoveries.

But it was the trip home that Mitchell recalls most. Sitting in the cramped cabin of the space capsule, he saw planet Earth floating freely in the vastness of space. He was engulfed by a profound sense of universal connectedness—an epiphany. In Mitchell's own words: "The presence of divinity became almost palpable, and I knew that life in the universe was not just an accident based on random processes. . . . The knowledge came to me directly."

Mitchell faced a critical challenge. As a physical scientist, he had grown accustomed to directing his attention to the objective world "out there." But the experience that came to him in space led him to a startling hypothesis: Perhaps reality is more complex, subtle, and inexorably mysterious than conventional science had led him to believe. Perhaps a deeper understanding of consciousness (inner space) could lead to a new and expanded view of reality in which objective and subjective, outer and inner, are understood as co-equal aspects of the miracle and mystery of being.

After his safe return "home," Mitchell sought out others who likewise felt the need for an expanded, more inclusive view of reality. They resolved to explore the inner world of human experience with the same rigor and critical thinking that made it possible for Apollo 14 to journey to the moon and back. In 1973, this small group of explorers founded the Institute of Noetic Sciences—derived from the Greek word nous, meaning something close to "intuitive ways of knowing." "


What is it you find un-credible about them? Specifically. And why?


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 03:46 PM

One of my favorite quotes

The grave is a fine and private place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 05:43 PM

...But none I think do there embrace.        
Now therefore, while the youthful hew        
Sits on thy skin like morning [dew]        
And while thy willing Soul transpires        
At every pore with instant Fires,        
Now let us sport us while we may;        
And now, like am'rous birds of prey,        
Rather at once our Time devour,        
Than languish in his slow-chapt pow'r.        
Let us roll all our Strength, and all        
Our sweetness, up into one Ball:        
And tear our Pleasures with rough strife,        
Thorough the Iron gates of Life.        
Thus, though we cannot make our Sun        
Stand still, yet we will make him run.

                -- Andrew Marvell, "To His Coy Mistress."


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 05:57 PM

I ain't never heard a hearse sing...


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 06:40 PM

And there ain't no pockets in a shroud....


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,Cake
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:13 AM

But every shroud has a silver lining...


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:29 AM

I was setting a stone in a small country Missouri cemetery once and had some troubles. I finally get it level and set right, but the sun was setting and I still had a 50 mile drive back to the shop. I'd been alone in the cemetery all day, but then I heard the most terrible noise. I can't describe the sound, but the hairs on the back of my neck stood straight up. I picked up a crowbar and went to investigate. And there, behind a yew tree, I found...a guy who was trying to learn the bagpipes. He didn't know there was anyone around and his wife wouldn't let him try to learn at home because "it scared the chickens." Other than this small vice he was pretty nice guy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:31 AM

Finish the story - what did you do with the crowbar?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: JennyO
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:19 AM

Speaking of cemeteries ....

A Grave Situation - © Claude Morris

When I staggered away from my favourite pub,
The night was dark and still,
And I thought I'd take a short cut home,
That led over Cemetery Hill.
Now I'm not a hero as everyone knows,
And I have no reckless trends,
But ghosts and the like leave me cold, as it were,
And spirits and I are old friends.

I wobbled along through the cemetery gates,
Begging my legs to behave,
And everything went pretty well, so I thought,
Till I fell down a newly-dug grave.
For a moment I thought I had landed in hell,
And ended my earthly career.
I sniffed like a hound for the sulphurous fumes,
Expecting Old Nick to appear.

But reason returned and I staggered erect,
My prison so dark, to survey,
And tested my bones for a fracture or two,
But everything functioned O.K.
I made a feeble attempt to get out,
But it needed no more than a glance
To tell me that in my condition,
I hadn't the ghost of a chance.

I reckoned I'd have a lay-off for awhile,
And when I woke sober and fit,
I'd surely come up with a first-class idea,
That would get me up out of the pit.
Just then I could hear fast oncoming steps,
That seemed too good to be true,
But ere I could 'Coo-ee' or offer advice,
In the grave there were suddenly two!

It happened he fell in the grave's other end,
With no one to cushion his fall;
But he rose like a shot with a high-pitched yelp,
And attempted to scale up the wall.
This chap was at pains to be up and away,
As the capers he cut, plainly told;
He jumped and he scrambled and jumped again,
But his fingers and toes wouldn't hold.

I hadn't yet spoken - I'd hardly a chance,
The way he cavorted about,
And I had to admire the way that he fought
To sever all ties and get out.
Of course, he believed there was nobody near -
He thought he was there all alone,
And I got the idea it had entered his head
That the grave was becoming his own.

I felt a bit sad for the poor little guy,
Now acting a little distraught,
And I thought he'd relax if I gave him the drum,
That he wasn't alone, as he thought.
So I walked up behind him and tapped on his back
As he paused for another wild bid;
'You CAN'T make it mate,' I breathed in his ear —
But by the Lord Harry, he DID!


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:54 AM

Well, when I saw this Thing with its proboscis rammed into the poor man's mouth, making obscene noises as it obviously was sucking the life out of him, I hit it and beat it with the crowbar. Fortunately, I missed the man most of the time, but I sure made that critter suffer! I know he was a nice guy because he said he now had an excuse not to learn the "triplely damned things" and his wife would now let him live somewhere in the house besides the basement, his friends would speak to him again, and the City Council of St. Louis would let him come into town to shop, etc.

Turned out he was FROM St. Louis, which was 200 miles south. Missouri State Law at the time forbid bagpipers from coming any closer to St. Louis upon pain of "grewsome death by accordion."


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: MBSLynne
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:51 PM

Actually Amos, it's quite interesting to note how many people become sarcastic and antagonistic whne this sort of thing is discussed. I wonder why?

Love Lynne


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 05:16 PM

Thank you, Rap' - I was in need of good dose of closure ... I feel better now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,DEATH
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 06:25 PM

HELLO.   MY EARS ARE BURNING.   ALLEGORICALLY. I AM NOT SCHEDULED TO BE HERE YET. HOW SHALL WE AMUSE OURSELVES UNTIL MY DUTY IS TO BE DONE?


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 06:25 PM

100


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 06:39 PM

Um, Death: I'm glad you're not scheduled to be here yet, because I'm not quite ready to receive you ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Death
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 10:41 PM

The bells of hell
       Go ting-a-ling-a-ling
       For you but not for me.
       Oh death, where is thy sting-a-ling-a-ling
       Or grave thy victory?


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