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Folklore: fairy tale motifs |
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Subject: Folklore: fairy tale motifs From: CapriUni Date: 30 May 07 - 10:23 PM Note #1: I'm no expert. I'm not an anthropologist, or professional folklorist who has gone out into the world and found any hard evidence for my ideas, but I have read a bunch of stuff collected by professional folklorists, and these are ideas that my poor little brain has concocted that make more sense to me than not. Make of that what you will. Note #2: I originally wrote the bulk of this post in my personal LiveJournal: http://capriuni.livejournal.com; before creating this thread, I searched for "Fairy tale", "fairytale", "Folktale" and "Grimms," and found nothing that covers this this general ground. So I'm hoping that this can be a thread that others can add to, as well, if they have insights into common fairy- and wondertale motifs, since there is much crossover between stories that are told and stories that are sung.
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Subject: RE: Folklore: fairy tale motifs From: Grab Date: 31 May 07 - 08:53 AM I just recently got a book on Scottish folk tales (from the "Scottish souvenirs" section at Edinburgh airport). That talks explicitly about folklorists having alterady categorised folk tales from across Europe by theme, much as you're trying to do. Don't look at me as knowing anything about this. But I can give you some references out of there if you like. Graham. |
Subject: RE: Folklore: fairy tale motifs From: CapriUni Date: 31 May 07 - 10:09 AM Oh, I know of folklorists who've catagorized themes and motifs. One of the most famous is The Motif Index of Folk Literature by Stith Thomson, which I have on my shelves. I was thinking that this thread could be a little deeper and more personal, where people who tell the stories and sing the songs can share the history behind the motifs, alongside personal insights. So, how do you like those tales? Do you have a favorite, so far? |
Subject: RE: Folklore: fairy tale motifs From: Bee Date: 31 May 07 - 10:45 AM This is a link to the Wiki summary of the fairy tale Childe Rowland. I read this story when I was around eight or nine years old, in a fairy tale collection where it was retitled The Erl King, and some of the details were omitted or changed. The tale affected me more strongly than other equally gruesome stories, though I'm not sure why. Possibly because of the involvement of a church as an important feature (Burd Ellen walks widdershins around the church, so allowing the Erl King to capture her), as opposed to a castle or hut in the woods, which as a child I had no direct experience with. Our family church was tiny, over 150 years old, high on a rocky hilltop in a secluded, forested, rural place, and only about fifty metres from a jumble of big rocks which the old Gaelic people (mostly immigrants from Benbecula and near islands) named the 'Creckins' (that's phonetic, I've no idea how the word is spelled), by which they meant 'Fairy Hole', and some of them believed fairies lived there. So I was always tempted to try it out, but never quite had the nerve to walk counterclockwise around the church. ;-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childe_Rowland |
Subject: RE: Folklore: fairy tale motifs From: MMario Date: 31 May 07 - 10:57 AM as a slight thread drift - CU - have you seen/read the "500 Kingdoms" series from Mercedes Lackey? The premise of the series is the force of "tradition" trying to fit people into archtypes and the various twists and turns those can take. |
Subject: RE: Folklore: fairy tale motifs From: katlaughing Date: 31 May 07 - 11:08 AM Beautifully done, CU! Thanks and I will be back.:-) |
Subject: RE: Folklore: fairy tale motifs From: TheSnail Date: 31 May 07 - 11:48 AM Inheritance by the youngest son, known as Borough English, was part of the law in some parts of medieval England. See - http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Borough_English |
Subject: RE: Folklore: fairy tale motifs From: CapriUni Date: 31 May 07 - 12:21 PM Bee -- In her book O, Mother Sun! A New View of the Cosmic Feminine, Patricia Monahagn draws connections between goddesses of the sun and goddesses of spinning a weaving (the rays of sunlight being the strands of yarn from which the goddess weaves the world), and, as she points out, if the spindle starts turning in the wrong direction, all the spinster's work is undone. So walking widdershins (oppoisite from the turning of the sun) "unbinds" the world -- looses the fabric between this world and the faery world. I once attended a meditation where the woman leading it directed us to draw counter-clockwise spirals to grow stronger... Since I knew about widdershins, this made no sense to me... until I learned, later, that she had been taught by a shaman in South America. Then, it made perfect sense (and this is why, if you're going to use magic -- either for real, or as a fictional device, it's important to understand the principle behind it, rather than just repeating it by rote) MMario -- No, I've not come across that. I'll have to keep my eyes open for it... personally, I think I fit most into the Fool archtype than anything else. TheSnail -- Thanks for backing up my vague memory with historical information! This is why I love Mudcat! |
Subject: RE: Folklore: fairy tale motifs From: Bee Date: 31 May 07 - 01:34 PM Interesting, CapriUni, the connection with the spindle. But - am I missing something regarding South America? The sun rises approximately in the East and sets in the West over the whole of the planet. (Note: I have never been good at interpreting mirror images and currently have a devastating spring cold, so Bee no think so good.) |
Subject: RE: Folklore: fairy tale motifs From: Peter T. Date: 31 May 07 - 01:41 PM The classic book on motifs in fairy tales is by Vladimir Propp. yours, Peter T. |
Subject: RE: Folklore: fairy tale motifs From: GUEST,highlandman Date: 31 May 07 - 01:55 PM In our (northern) hemisphere the sun appears to pass from east to west via the southern part of the sky. Hence the shadow of a stick appears to rotate in the direction we call clockwise. (Never mind that clocks run clockwise for that very reason.) In the southern hemisphere the sun also passes from east to west, but does so via the northern part of the sky. Hence the stick's shadow goes the other way around, so cultural references to "sunwise" from south of the equator would of course be reversed. Does that help? |
Subject: RE: Folklore: fairy tale motifs From: CapriUni Date: 31 May 07 - 02:27 PM Bee -- Highlandman's explaination is a good one. If you have trouble visualizing it, it might help to get something tall and slender, like a candle, and eperiment with a flashlight, so you can see how the shadow moves. First, move the flashlight from right to left from behind the candle, then, move it from left to right, but in front of the candle. You'll see the shadow move in a circle, and turn in opposite directions. I guess the general rule of thumb is: no matter where in the world you are, pay attention to the flow of things, and go in the same direction -- whether it's following shadows around a church, or driving your car in traffic! ;-) Peter T. -- thanks for the recommendation! Do you remember the title? And why is this book considered the classic? |
Subject: RE: Folklore: fairy tale motifs From: MorwenEdhelwen1 Date: 23 Apr 13 - 07:21 PM @Capri: Added you as a friend on LiveJournal. Is that okay with you? |
Subject: RE: Folklore: fairy tale motifs From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Apr 13 - 06:15 AM Anybody with a serious interest in fairy and folk tales might want to keep a look out for Georges Denis Zimmermann's (he of 'Irish Songs of Rebellion') fairly definitive, 'The Irish Storyteller' - detailed and excellent - and thick enough to stand on to reach the top shelf if you don't like it. Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: Folklore: fairy tale motifs From: Claire M Date: 24 Apr 13 - 09:12 AM Hiya, I've always loved fairy tales,& folk music,(although I much prefer the pixies-&-castles sort). I'm even having a garden done with these sort of themes. I strongly believe that interest in one feeds interest in the other. As a child I really thought folk musicians were witches & their songs were spells, & when they met up they talked in Old English! It probably started when I saw this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhdS-BBizaY Oh my, the song! & this didn't help either http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vjKTwUWIZo Is it me or does the theme sound like 'Light Flight at the end?) I suppose the reasoning behind not bothering to correct me was keeping me from being bored – which worked – & hoping I'd get it out of my system . I didn't. It's got worse. I still want to be a witch now. I'd have loved to have been alive if/when the world was really like that, or people were really like that, but I can't so I write my own. I got a fairy tale book for Xmas, it weighs a ton but it's got all the stuff I loved in it – old-fashioned language, none of the gruesome bits cut out. I WILL be back. When shall we 3 ..........oh bum!...... meet again??(evil screechy laugh) |
Subject: RE: Folklore: fairy tale motifs From: GUEST Date: 24 Apr 13 - 09:16 AM I think this link Child 1 takes you to the collection of Child ballads which is described as containing "Ballads involving Superstitions of various kinds, — as of Fairies, Elves, Water-spirits, Enchantment, and Ghostly Apparitions; and also some Legends of Popular Heroes." A good supporting text for these ballads is "Folklore in the English and Scottish Ballads" by Lowry Charles Wimberly L C Wimberly You could also try reading the Mabinogion Mabinogion @ Sacred Texts |
Subject: RE: Folklore: fairy tale motifs From: GUEST,SteveT Date: 24 Apr 13 - 09:17 AM That was me above as Guest - but it wouldn't accept the post when I had my "name" on it. Have I offended someone?? |
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