BS: Need Advice

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: Bee
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 07:19 AM

MTed, technically, yes. But my dad had a wrecking bar, and I'm talking about a smaller, thinner, more delicate member of that tool family, favoured by recycling types. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: Mickey191
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 11:47 PM

Finishing white nails-panel edges-but a bit further in then he should have.

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 07:07 PM

dID HE USE FINISHING NAILS, AND DID HE USE THEM IN MID-PANEL OR ONLY AT THE EDGES?

oops, damn Capslock!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: Mickey191
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 07:02 PM

Sorcha, Thanks for the laugh!

Bee, No need to order another panel as you advised--I have an extra one. I also have an extra 16 ft. piece of baseboard. Both untouched. That's also proof that he's not only a bad mechanic he's crappy at math -- $45.90 blown right there.

A wrecking bar? How aptly named!

I just went into _the wrecked room_ and guess what?
One panel has started to bulge out at the edge. This is gonna be great fun if others follow suit.

Thanks Susan.

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 06:45 PM

Those "pry tools" are also called "wrecking bars"--

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 06:40 PM

Don't forget the classic phrase I learned from a fellow Mudcatter:

Great-- Another F***ing Growth Opportunity!"

(AFGO)

~Susan
PS, Mickey, I really appreciated the good heart with which you received my small-town thoughts upthread. We do have about the same size town as yours, but I just liked it that you didn't get pissy about what I said. We're pulling for you!

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: Bee
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 05:17 PM

There are neat little pry tools designed to get under a slab of wood or panel, grab the nail, and lift carefully. If you pry nail and panel up together, but not all the way, repeating several times until the panel comes free, should be all right - still need to trim, of course. Talk to yer friendly hardware guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: Sorcha
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 03:33 PM

Yo, Mickey...watch out for the light at the end of the tunnel. I think it IS a train! (Sorry for your troubles, dear)

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 02:17 PM

As to the question about taking the paneling down and putting it up the right way, I'd try that first--keeping in mind that paneling that has been riveted into place with a nail gun is often somewhat worse for wear after it is removed--

As per the car, sometimes I find it is a great help to be able to say, "I am sorry, but the car is in the shop and I can't"

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: Mickey191
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 01:36 PM

Bee Thank you--Good Thoughts!

I'm still in the middle of the mess. Plus my car died and has been in shop since Tuesday. I seem to be navigating under a very dark cloud at present. I'm on top of a mountain with no car. The solution maybe to just jump the hell off! TEE HEE!!

Think I'll get a tent & a horse!

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 11:21 AM

Dang, Bee-- that sounds entirely reasonable! And affordable! Hope it works for Mickey.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: Bee
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 11:12 AM

I know what I would do (I too would be peeved about spending much more money), or get someone else to do (and direct them, and watch them). I'd take the panelling down, have the bad edges on the sides sawed off, reinstall properly with the included cover strips, then finish the top and bottom with trim and baseboard. You might need to buy one more sheet, and you'd likely have to take care with measurements. Frankly, it doesn't sound like it was originally rocket science, but a failure to read/follow instructions and using wrong tools - the nail gun.

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 10:47 AM

I wasn't thinking about better cost-wise, I was thinking better, in terms of being able to nail it without damaging the finish---though perhaps it wouldn't be a problem if he had done the installation properly in the first place--

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: Mickey191
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 10:02 PM

Bee & M.Ted,

The paneling I bought is Georgia-Pacific White Ice = $27.50 a sheet. Pre-finished hardboard paneling/Meets class one finish.

Has the look of melamine.   

There are many cheaper & a some a bit higher. It's definitely not junk. Has a good fire rating too.

I asked a couple of neighbors, both before and since, they seem to have been unable to find anyone they would recommend. One story was worse-in that involved a torn up bathroom. No tub for a 5 wk. period.

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 08:39 PM

More than likely, what with the dollar being down and all, you've incurred more than $700 worth of grief. It's time to bite the bullet--banish Joe from your life forever and get someone who really can do the job. My suggestion is to ask your friends and neighbors who they've used that they like.

Also, you might consider that perhaps you should use the better grade of paneling--

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: Mickey191
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 09:57 PM

Not ready to throw away $700.00

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: Sorcha
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 09:35 PM

Give up on panelling. Hang dry wall and paint.

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: Bee
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 08:39 PM

And crazy glue is only useful for gluing fingers together. Can't recall what we used, but he have humid summers and wood heat winters and none of it falls off - the nailed trim would hold it all anyway, what with the tongue and grooves and all.

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 01:47 PM

Gee Bert, even I know that Liquid Nails is for glueing hard hats to magnets.

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: Bert
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 01:19 PM

...with an appropriate adhesive...

A few years ago I stuck some panelling on with "Liquid Nails". Every single damned panel fell off.

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: Bee
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 01:14 PM

Mickey, what kind of panelling is it, anyway? Is it that woodgrain printed on fibreboard or masonite stuff? Actual wood? Something else?

I ask because we found that you can buy cottage grade or better real pine tongue and groove panelling very cheaply, and you can actually just glue it to the walls (with an appropriate adhesive), nailing only the baseboard and the chair rail (or the top trim). Goes up really fast and easy, looks great, leave as is or finish any way you want. The boards are really thin and light weight, and you can get them in different lengths depending on how high you want them to go. We did several walls about five years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: Mickey191
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 12:16 PM

I panelled the livingroom--But I was 10 yrs. younger!

Ten yrs. can make a hell of a difference. Remember that you Mudcat Kids--Fly while you have wings!

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: SINSULL
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 11:09 AM

I too have suffered at the hands of the do-it-all handyman who was very good at some things and hopeless at others. At some point I had to admit that I should have stopped him. Cost me a lot of money in the learning process - $1000 for a roof that leaked afterwards, for example. But he was able to install phone lines upstairs very cheaply. It involved snaking wires from the the basement to the second floor. And he did a first rate job of painting and re-instaling shutters. He was not so good on the furnace. And the roof leaked.

It appears to me that you do not want Joe doing anymore work in your home. He's incompetent, at least at paneling. Cut your losses and run. Find someone else to complete the job as best as it can be done or start over. Try to get some cash back from Joe if you can. Who panelled the Living Room? That was done properly, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: Bee
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 10:47 AM

True, Kendall, there are still a few men out there who think they can intimidate a woman into putting up with poor workmanship, while they'd never think of trying it on with a man. Friend of mine had a porch put on last year, by a recommended carpenter. Two months later the porch literally fell off the house.

On the other hand, there are the scads of men who will go out of their way to make sure a single woman understands the work, the price, and will throw in a few extra repairs on the way. Those are the good guys.

My mother's 84, still lives alone in her home. The mailman built her a new mailbox and installed it - free. The guy that ploughs her driveway in winter hops out and shovels her garbage bin clear. The guy that replaced her rotted picture window said 'Tsk! This won't do!', fetched in a bunch of half-used caulking tubes, and plugged up all the old caulking in her other windows. Mind you, she's still a great baker, and every one of those guys likes cookies and squares. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: kendall
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 07:30 AM

I hate men who do this sort of thing to women. He's never get away with it if I were his victim.

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: mrdux
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 02:53 AM

Sigh.

Window trim and painting a ceiling I suppose, but cleaning the goo off the rug. . . I'd be concerned about the rug, although maybe it's a simple enough job. And I agree: keep the compressor out of the house.

I wouldn't kick yourself too much about it. I'm sure there's an entire thread worth of Catters who have had contractor-from-hell learning experiences, and who, if they had only a bit more something -- vigilant, inquisitive, attentive, savvy -- might have averted disaster entirely, and who, having had the experience, will certainly be better able to avert similar disasters in the future.

As I said before, good luck with it.

michael

PS -- As to the quote, it's late, and I'm not coming up with much: "airbus," "amaryllis" and "archdutchess" are the only possible solutions I've come up with so far, but I don't think any of them is the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: Mickey191
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 01:42 AM

Thanks Michael, The only workable solution is to put 1 1/4 or 1 1/2 wide strips _OVER_ the seams. This will spoil the lovely paneling-but I've no choice.

Trim around the windows. Clean the white goo off the rug. That is a simple enough job-he must also put a second coat on ceiling. He doesn't even need a ladder-he's about 6" 4inches.

If he brings in a nail gun with a compressor I'll kick him in the shins! That's what started the whole thing.

Finish this quote:
She who takes a carpenter on without references is an ___!(begins with a & ends with s.

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: mrdux
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 01:24 AM

Mickey --

A couple thoughts:

His mention of his employment in the ad isn't really a reference, but it sounds like he's using his employment with the construction company as a qualification for the job. Since the ads were available to the general public -- and assuming that the employer was aware to some extent of Joe's ad -- you probably are not out of line contacting his boss -- and, while I don't know New York law, it sure doesn't sound like extortion or blackmail. On the other hand, I fear it won't get you much satisfaction, since my guess is the boss will want to have less than nothing to do with his employees' after hours gigs. If you talk to the boss, he is most likely to pull Joe aside and say something like "I got a call from a dissatisfied customer of yours. How you deal with it is your own business." That may or may not get any action out of Joe. Perhaps the mere threat of contacting the boss will. . .

The problem is what do you really want from Joe at this point? Since he displayed himself to be a thorough incompetent at panelling, do you really want him mucking around your den trying to make his bad work look better? Sounds ominous to me. Or do you want him to compensate you so that you can start over and get the job done right from the start without your having to take a major financial hit on the deal? That sounds ideal, but how likely it might be I have no idea -- maybe there's a mutually tolerable compromise that can be reached. By all means try to have a talk with him about it, but think about what you really want him to do for you . . . and what you're willing to live with.

Good luck.

michael

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: Bert
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 12:07 AM

...tried to do a job he wasn't familiar with...

I just did that. Daughter Rachael said "Oh My Dad will do that for you". I seriously underbid the job and it took three times as long as I'd planned. I stuck with it and it didn't turn out too badly, and the customer was pleased in the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: Mickey191
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 12:01 AM

Thank you Bee. I went up to see him the Sunday before Memorial Day- He looked me straight in the face & said he'd be here Saturday - yesterday.

He wasn't embarassed - he'd let me down twice before. I thought facing him would do the trick. There was no acrimony in the conversation.I'm not big on confrontation.

Part of the problem was that I as a true amateur did the L.R. Paneling & I did a great job. So I figured, (JOKE)- any idiot can do it. Guess I was wrong. Thanks again.

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: Bee
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 11:29 PM

Not a good excuse, but it sounds like buddy bit off more than he could chew - anxious for the money so tried to do a job he wasn't familiar with (he may be a great framer/carpenter, for example). If this happened to me, I might try to call the guy and speak to him very gently, suggest he wasn't as experienced as he said he was, ask if he could do the work if he had an experienced worker with him to show him how, ask if he thought it was fair to you to have to live with the botched job, etc., and maybe see if that would lead to an agreement that works for both of you. If he's a decent guy, he may be wallowing in embarassment and guilt, and be grateful for some way to redress the mess.

I have, on several occasions, because I was desperate for work, taken on jobs I was not qualified to do. Fortunately, I'm a quick study, but sometimes I was really skating on the edge of very thin ice, and I did make mistakes I had to cover - but I covered them on my own time so as not to impact my employer.

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: Mickey191
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 10:55 PM

Just noticed my 7:28 post had me as guest.T'aint so!

Susan, I've lived in this town (Pop.9,000) for 32 yrs. I sued one fellow. That soured me from ever taking that route again. That was a much more expensive loss for me--I never, ever thought of seeking a legal remedy. I do, indeed, put things in perspective.

I think you may, perhaps, be over dramatizing the situation. Your town sounds like it has 100 people with not much to do but gossip. While I appreciate your good intentions & kind advice I think it is not applicable here.

I will do as I mentioned at 7:28. I think if I hint that I _might_ call his boss, he'll find a remedy.

As Bobert said: Education is expensive.
Thank you all for your advice. Mickey

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 08:38 PM

Mickey,

Please don't take this that I am saying it's all our fault, or that I'm picking on you. I am literally going to tell you what it would all mean here, in our small town, and nothing more.

Here, people would be saying that you had already made a foolish reputation for hiring inadequate work in the past, not knowing better, and that you deserved to be taken for a ride.

Behind your back, they would be saying that you had made a rep for suing townspeople, and they would not trust you.

They would say that this current dude is the only one in town dumb enough to agree to do a job for you, and that everybody knows his work is crap, and that it's no wonder it didn't go well.

And they would most definitely hear about it if you called the employer, because that would give him grief on the job quicker than it would get you your work done right (or your money back).

And they would take his side, and you are VERY right that you should not put a sign in your yard; you might not get assaulted but you would not get great cooperation on car repairs, dentistry, etc. etc. etc.



Now, not all small towns are like that, or not on all matters. There is a way to do business in a small town. We seem to have discovered the knack for this particular small town we live in, and thus the advice I offered earlier.... the only thing I can add to it is that you could go to a local contractor you DO trust, and throw yourself on their mercy after admitting that you got yourself screwed over that siding and didn't handle it well, and ask him if there is anything you can do to get this current thing straightened out. Small town folks I know love that approach when people have eventually seen the light according to their particular view of the small town they happen to be in.

And that person might even be this yayhoo's boss, I don't know.


I hope you are able to get this straightened out, or at least not lose too much sleep on it. It's just a room, you know, and it might be that you would benefit from not worrying about this too much right now.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 08:31 PM

Education is expensive...

Bite the bullet...

The world is full of Joe's...

That's is my advice...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 06:57 PM

She wants JOE'S BOSS to speak to Joe ... as I understand it ... in other words, to reprimand or pressure or embarrass Joe ... (correct me if I'm wrong, Mickey!).

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 06:53 PM

Ummm.... I just read the first post again. The question was.... "Since he used his full time employer as a reference source, would I be out of bounds to get in touch with his boss & ask him to talk to Joe?"

Sorry, kinda missed the intent... of course not... you just want to speak to Joe, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 06:46 PM

I don't think you have any business contacting his employer. The time to do that was before you hired him. Then you would have some pretext for calling employer now - for instance, if the employer had told you that this guy is very competent and reliable, you could report back that that is not the way you found him to be, and ask (rhetorically or otherwise) why the employer had approved of him. But in your situation ...

Obviously, not everyone would agree me. Just my opinion, as so many people say on the 'net.

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 06:34 PM

"I work for Jones Construction" isn't really using the employer as a reference - I'm afraid that the fault was yours, Mickey, in equating the quality of his work with that of Jones'. For all you know, he works there in an unskilled capacity, or has already been canned for poor performance!

Does he have a contractor's license? If so, you can report him to the licensing agency. If not, is it illegal there to do contracting without one? Some places it is. Otherwise, I really don't think you have any other recourse at all except to report him to the Better Business Bureau or sue in small claims court, and you've already said that would be futile.

How about a big sign on your front lawn, with a picture of a lemon and "Renovations by Joe"?

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 06:34 PM

On the other hand, let's not get TOO down on Joe. Allow him to atone (and learn?). If he doesn't, well, put the screws to him.... BUT, remember, this is a guy who is trying to put food on the table, just like you and me.

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: jacqui.c
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 06:26 PM

That's a fairly natural assumption to make until you've been burned.

This guy is misrepresenting himself and, if no action is taken, he'll probably cause the same sort of grief for other people. Spread the word, to his employer and the paper, to stop other people being taken for a ride.

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: Mickey191
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 05:51 PM

The siding fellow showed his home as an example-in the courtroom he confessed his Father had done the job.   

Joe's ad had a list of things he was knowledgeable & skilled enough to tackle. Being that he worked for a very well known Outfit I made an assumption that he was truthful.

Ebbie, I'm already down. You can take your foot off my neck now!

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 04:52 PM

Locking the barn door after the beast is gone, I know- but I don't understand not being familiar with a person's work before committing myself to paying for it, Mickey. Same thing happened with the siding job, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 04:28 PM

It is only blakmail or extortion (under English law) if the demand is for something unjustified. "Finish the job or pay for someone to do it right" is not unjustified.

I am concerned that the bit of paper you signed about $2/3rds was for the work done may have spoiled your chances of suing this guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 04:27 PM

Me, I would contact the employer. See if he even knows he's being used as a reference. He might not appreciate it. Esp. if the guy is doing crap work using his name.

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: Bert
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 04:19 PM

Hmmm, my post just disappeared.

I'm in Colorado, dammit, otherwise I'd drop in to give you a hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 04:05 PM

Susan.... no way is that blackmail or extortion.... it's actually being nice to the guy by giving him the option to atone for his sins.

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: Mickey191
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 03:59 PM

Kendall, The truth is I was trying to be "nice" and not bug him. Regarding cutting of the wood in the den-he had a bag on his saw & said there'd be no mess. That took him about an hour-I took him at his word. DUMB!

As for the panel damage-I wasn't thinking - I knew he had the binder strips.* Forgot the sequence-you put up one panel then the strip - you don't nail them all in first. I did say The baseboard is marked up: "oh the goo will cover that."

* I didn't need binder strips on the L.R. job.

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 03:00 PM

OK, then it's extortion. Whatever-- it's not the best way to get it resolved. Anybody in a small town should know that.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: kendall
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:53 PM

This doesn't rise to the category of blackmail. What he did was not illegal.

I have a question: Why did you let him get that far before noticing that his work sucked?

Subject: RE: BS: Need Advice
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 02:25 PM

The fix sounds like something someone else will be able to do for the amount of money you have left in the budget. I'd try the fix first, before ripping it all out and budgeting again from scratch.

Starting trouble for him, even if the local trades already know he's a complete yo-yo, will only make it harder for you to get anyone to do work for you. If you want to repay him for your frustration, there are ways to do that without exposing yourself to liability.

Good luck!

~Susan