Carthy Discusses Dylan

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: JeremyC
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 02:21 PM

That one's mentioned in the wikipedia article for the song, although they note that she sings it correctly in a later live recording. Someone probably told her to keep her from continuing to look stupid.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 09:38 AM

PoppaGator may have been thinking of the way JB sings 'Here comes THE Robert E Lee'in 'The Night They...., etc), which seems to indicate that she thought she was singing about a steamboat, or locomotive, or something. Gets to me every time.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: JeremyC
Date: 28 Jun 07 - 08:30 AM

Awesome. That's a great song.

On the topic of the Dylan-Baez thing, I recently read Dick Weissman's book "Which Side Are You On?" where he says something along the lines of "Joan Baez was surprised to have run across someone more coldly ambitious and calculating than herself." Provocative! I hadn't run across this contention with re: to Baez before, although I'd been told this about Dylan.

Also, the song I was thinking of earlier, where she tries and fails to sing it convincingly, was "East Virginia," on her self-titled album. Her diction is too correct for her to get away with words like "holler" and "darlin'"--if she'd just said "hollow" and "darling," it would have been fine, and I never would have noticed anything amiss.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: KeithofChester
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:02 AM

The most striking thing to me were the clips of Baez. I haven't listened to her in a long time, and the purity of her voice really hits hard. I'd actually forgotten just how beautiful it was. Plus, I'd never heard "Diamonds and Rust," and now I'll have to get that album.

Diamonds & Rust is on quite a lot of Joan compilations, as well as the original album. She has sung it live on tour about 8 out of the 10 times I've seen her.

There are quite a few versions on You Tube too

Diamonds & Rust

and of course there is also the Judas Priest take on it!

Diamonds & Rust (Judas priest)

As I said in another thread, whether 'tis folk or not is often all in the arrangement...

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: JeremyC
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 09:51 AM

I was finally able to listen to the show last night, and it's quite a good overview of what was going on at the time (based on what else I've seen and read, because I don't have the benefit some of you do of first-hand experience). I don't believe all the commentary was fair; for instance, the comment about "beauty in ugliness" seemed unwarranted, and the "sand and glue" comparison at the beginning was just ridiculous.

Martin Carthy was very fair to Dylan, but the editorial tone was not. I think Carthy helped balance the tone of the program.

The most striking thing to me were the clips of Baez. I haven't listened to her in a long time, and the purity of her voice really hits hard. I'd actually forgotten just how beautiful it was. Plus, I'd never heard "Diamonds and Rust," and now I'll have to get that album.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 04:27 AM

Thanks Keith - all operatic tenors sound the same to me!

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: KeithofChester
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 03:24 AM

Wasn't it Dylan who said that his voice was as good as Pavarotti's? Just listen, he said, every note's in tune so what's the difference?

The comparison Bob made was actually with Caruso. The comment is in one of the press interviews during the documentary film Don't Look Back

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 03:16 AM

It would be 1966 Poppa and it follows the sequence filmed at Newcastle Odeon. I was at the same concert and forty one years on I still can't understand the same people who hung on his every word, roared with laughter at his quirky introductions and applauded loudly at the end of each of his solo, acoustic songs in the first half either got up and walked out the moment the second half began as he appeared with The Band or gave him a hard time for the rest of the night.It was almost as if it was the hip thing to do at the time.
I just wish that the same people had been to see him at Sheffield this April.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: PoppaGator
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 01:46 AM

Hah, Maryrrf, we certainly agree on at least ONE thing. As much as I generally like most of Joan's work, and as much as I really love everything by and about The Band, her rendition of that particular Robbie Robertson composition really makes my skin crawl. I'm not sure why; she just seems to misunderstand the song completely.

I believe that there's a very telling misreading of a few words of the lyric in there somewhere (a "mondegreen"), but I don't remember just what it is.

I won't name names, but Maryrrf was not the correspondant uppermost in my mind when I wrote my complaint about the "Dylan haters."

Actually, the prototypical anti-Bob whiner that I always think of first is a young British fellow (well, he was young back in '65 or whenever) who appears in "No Direction Home" and informs an interviewer, quite matter-of-factly and in a smugly authoritative tone, that "Bob Dylan was a bahstard" for daring to appear onstage to perform his own music. The same kid also had some highly ignorant and indignant things to say about The Band.

It's just beyond me why people paid good money to come out an boo at those concerts. If you really don't like someone's music, that's certainly your prerogative ~ but why not stay home, save your pennies, and avoid whatever it is that you find so unpleasant?

I was at Newport in 1965, and "Like a Rolling Stone" was already a widely-played commerical hit record that summer, all over the radio, well before the Folk Festival was underway. How could anyone have been shocked or surprised that Bob would dare "go electric"?

Of course, he could never have duplicated the studio sound of that groundbreaking record at an outdoor concert. It would be difficult enough even today to even approximate that kind of highly-produced sound in a festival setting, and with the crude audio technology of that era ~ fuggetaboutit! Plus which, Bob didn't have a working band at the time, he just put together a "pickup band" of himself, Al Kooper, and members of the Paul Butterfield Blues Band. Little wonder that the sound was a bit crude.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: Maryrrf
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:51 PM

Just to be clear, I don't 'hate' Bob Dylan, but he isn't my favorite singer or songwriter - not by a long shot. However I don't have an issue with those who do feel a deep afinity with Dylan and his music. Little Hawk said it very well - everybody's buttons are different. Joan Baez pushes the right buttons for me most of the time (but NOT when she sings "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down".)

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:07 PM

I just listened to the program[me] in question, just in the nick of time. I think this is the final day that the replay is available.

It was more than interesting, even to someone like me who has heard, seen, and read pretty much everything available about these characters and their various genres and areas of interest, both back at the time when it was actually happening and ever since.

I can only be amused by the spoutings of the Dylan-haters, and amazed that they still haven't gotten over their problems.

I certainly don't expect other people to share my tastes, but if one doesn't enjoy and/or doesn't "get" a given performer's output, why is it so difficult to simply ignore/forget the object of one's supposed indifference? Why be so continually obsessed, why harbor such bitter feelings toward an artist whose taste no longer concides with one's own? A performer, after all, can hardly be expected to present material that does not represent his own tastes and feelings.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 08:23 PM

I absolutely love the way both Dylan AND Baez sing! I love them by themselves. I love them as a duet. They both sound great, but each in a completely different way. That's perfectly okay.

So consider that for a change. ;-) It does not have to be a choice of "either or...".

Bob Dylan and Joan Baez, in fact, are among my 3 favorite singers of all time....which is not to say that there aren't a great many other fine singers out there. And better ones too. There are. But Bob and Joan just happen to do it for me.

Some other female singers I really like: Mary Chapin Carpenter, Joni Mitchell, Buffy Sainte-Marie, Emmy Lou Harris, Sylvia Tyson, Tish Hinojosa, Tanita Tikaram...to mention a few.

Some other male singers I really like: Jackson Browne, Stan Rogers, Al Stewart, Leonard Cohen.

Now all those people sound quite different from one another, don't they? And that's good. It's much more interesting that way. Dylan is one of the best-sounding singers ever in his own way...but you won't like the way he sounds one bit if you're not attracted to it in some way, right? There's gotta be something about it that pushes your buttons positively for some reason. And the reasons for that could be almost infinite in their variety. If you are attracted to it, you'll love it. If you aren't, you'll probably never have any idea why anyone else is! ;-)

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: JeremyC
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 06:01 PM

Thank you, Diane, I must have missed the link the first time around.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 05:47 PM

Failure to harmonize nicely with Bob in an undoubtedly impromptu context is hardly a solid basis for dismissing Joan's abilities as a singer.

One of the recently-released archival Dylan recordings (I think it came out with "No Direction Home, but I may be mistaken) features Ramblin' Jack Elliott doing a terrible job singing backup to a very early rendition of "Mr. Tambourine Man."

Jack has never been quite as fine a singer as Joan Baez, but he's certainly a much more talented vocal performaer than how he sounds on that recording.

Joan has always been an excellent vocalist, despite how poorly she might have performed on occasion when trying to sing along with the notoriously mercurial Mr Zimmerman, who has always made an effort never to sing any song the same way twice.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 05:31 PM

I wish I could have heard the Martin Carthy interview, but I couldn't find it

It's still on the replayer and will be until tomorrow.
Link posted above at 08.43 on 5 June.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: JeremyC
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 04:46 PM

Yes, she is. I think my favorite song of hers is the one in spanish about the prisoner. There's a lot of fire in that one.

My main problem with the songs of hers that don't appeal to me is that I don't find her credible on songs like "House of the Rising Sun," or songs with a country-ish patois in them. Which is too bad, because she's wonderful with songs like "Mary Hamilton" or the like.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: Maryrrf
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 04:40 PM

My preference is also for her earlier stuff, and I agree that sometimes her voice is "too pure". She is still a wonderful singer though.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: JeremyC
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 04:38 PM

Joan Baez is a good singer. Probably too good for my taste, considering what I've heard her sing, but I've only heard her earlier stuff, so I don't know much. I love her on some songs and can't stand her on others.

I wish I could have heard the Martin Carthy interview, but I couldn't find it.

FWIW, I think Dylan was an inspired genius during the 60s, but lost it later. I couldn't care less about his personality, ambitions, etc., but his songs were largely very good, and the way he used his folk background, or the way he would recombine things, has amazed me for as long as I've been familiar with any of his work.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: Maryrrf
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 04:19 PM

Oh so you're judging her by two sound clips. I see.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 04:07 PM

Are you judging Joan Baez's singing abilities purely on the basis of one live sound clip recorded during a civil rights event?

Ummm. no. I was talking about Newport.
But that reminds me, she was dire in Washington too.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 03:53 PM

Wasn't it Dylan who said that his voice was as good as Pavarotti's? Just listen, he said, every note's in tune so what's the difference? As someone who can't stand operatic tenors, I'm inclined to agree.........

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: Greg B
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 03:47 PM

On the BBC programme they played a clip of her singing harmony
behind Dylan. I was struck by how very good she was to hold the
intervals and make a decent vocal harmony with a lead that was
so challenging and minimally controlled. But it sounded beautiful.
She was diamonds--- he was rust.

At the same time it occurred to me that his voice may not be
quite as objectively bad as it subjectively sounds.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: Maryrrf
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 03:43 PM

As I said, the man has made his mark.

Are you judging Joan Baez's singing abilities purely on the basis of one live sound clip recorded during a civil rights event? That's the second time you've mentioned that one performance.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 03:32 PM

. . . and some seem to like Ms Baez warbling way out of tune on With God On Our Side.

The programme wasn't a eulogy of Dylan but an assessment. You don't have to like his music or his persona (whatever that is) to recognise his overwhelming and enduring influence. Martin Carthy recognises it and so does that same Ms Baez. Not to is churlish.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: Maryrrf
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 03:22 PM

Good lord, is it a crime not to like Bob Dylan???? I just don't understand why expressing a personal opinion generates such an over the top reaction. The man has sold millions of records and has certainly made his mark, but his music and persona (at least what is publicly projected - obviously I don't know what he'd be like on a one-to-one basis) is not to my liking. Can we agree to disagree? Some people like coffee, some like tea.....it would be very boring if we all liked the same things.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 02:26 PM

Wouldn't bank on that high percentage.

But you can be absolutely sure of bringing out to play a few of those who will bad-mouth Mr Z at the drop of a hat, usually on the basis that they have heard . . . ooh, as many as 5 or 6 of his songs.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 02:11 PM

A high percentage of people here at the Mudcat will know who Kip Harburg was. But the average man on the street has never heard of him. But they know who Bob Dylan is and can probably tell you the titles of 5 or 6 of his songs. Now which one is more talented? It's all a matter of taste......

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 02:00 PM

Who's Yip Harburg?

Someone whose work and life was severely restricted by the oddly titled 'Unamerican Activities' (or something like that) bunch of McCarthyist fascists. One of Dick Gaughan's 'links in the chain' and writer of Brother, Can You Spare A Dime? and Over The Rainbow.

On a level (and a highly elevated one) with Mr Zimmerman.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 01:43 PM

Do you mean Kris Kristofferson?

And "His output will not withstand the test of time". Sorry - but it already has.

And if you were to stop 100 people on the street my guess is that about 99 of them would say "Who's Yip Harburg?" But most of them would know about Bob Dylan.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 12:33 PM

Dylan's writing is mostly sophmoric filled with empty images and worn-out cliches. His output will not withstand the test of time. A few of his songs are good but compared to the great lyricists of the past, Dylan is like a blip on the screen.

Yip Harburg, Chris Christopherson, Woody, Jean Ritchie, Stan Rogers, Irving Berlin, Cole Porter, Stephen Sondheim, W.S. Gilbert, John Dowland, Dorothy Fields, ........

These people could really write lyrics.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: KeithofChester
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 02:18 PM

But then Visions of Johanna is Joan too, as perhaps is Positively Fourth Street (if it isn't Phil Ochs). So it depends how Bob was feeling about her on the day.

Now, as for a duet where Bob & Joan can try and speak for themselves, then let's try this one. I can't work out the vintage on that. It looks like it might be from their last tour together in the early 80s, or possibly it is from around the time of Hard Rain. Doesn't look like Rolling Thunder Revue footage anyway.

Blowin' In The Wind

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 01:41 PM

it reminded me of what a beautiful singer Joan Baez was and is

Hmmm. That would be why she was so completely out of tune with Mr Zimmerman on With God On Our Side at Newport.

And not just out of tune. This is why It Ain't Me Babe was written about her. Cruel, maybe, but nobody's fault. It was pretty much like the Jagger/Richards composition Out Of Time about Ms Shrimpton. These things happen.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: KeithofChester
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 06:17 AM

You can now get 1985's Biograph, the finest Dylan compendium ever issued, for less than GBP11 on Amazon. When I first bought it, it was over GBP30. Someone here might have original 5 LP vinyl version. Now, OK you don't get quite such a nice book as I have in my box in the GBP11 version, but you get all the music and most of Bob's finest work in there. Again, you don't get the last 3 CDs from his current very late "Indian Summer", but I think most people wouldn't suggest starting a Dylan collection with those.

As a songwriter, few equal him in greatness. As a singer there can be more debate. However, whenever I hear friends say "don't like his voice", I normally ask "which voice?". Because there are quite a few. The voice of Freewheeling is very different to that of Nashville Skyline, which in turn is very different to Before The Flood and that is very different to Modern Times. Bob has produced a lot of great work in the last 45 years. There is probably quite a bit in there most people would enjoy. The art is in finding it, but that does require some listening first.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 07:09 PM

It is Joan Baez's opinion, Maryrrf, that Bob Dylan was the finest songwriter of that era ("thank you for writing the best songs, thank you for righting a few wrongs")...and one of its finest live performers as well. It is also Judy Collins' opinion, and she has called him a "national treasure". They were there. They had the expertise to know what they were talking about. What did they see in him that you don't?

It may just be a matter of personal taste...or of familiarity...

How many of Dylan's songs do you know well? With most people, it's a mere handful of them.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 05:37 PM

I watched "no direction home" and it seemed he really ticked off the folkies in Britain, and some of that feeling remains.

Seems he was a user, but who what and for how long. Anyone who rises in the art can be a user, but there's a ratio of how much you give back versus how much you take, and are you insinuating that Dylan's is less than unity?

And as far as turning his back on folk, did Dylan behave as a man other than as he represented himself to be? Does one have to be locked into the folk family forever?

As far as the leaving of the 'movement' goes, I remember that movement, and there was a hell of a lot more form and noise than substance there, perhaps he saw through that as well, only a little ahead of most of the rest. Joan didn't stop the war, but maybe Dylan got Hurricane out of jail a little bit earlier than otherwise.

- - - - - - - - - -
Lisa: "Dad do you know what Schadenfreude is?"
Homer: "No, I do not know what schadenfreude is, please tell me because I am dying to know..."
Lisa: "It's German for taking pleasure in someone else's pain!"
Homer: "What's the opposite of schadenfreude?"
Lisa: "Sour grapes!"
Homer: "Those Germans have a word for everything!"

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: Maryrrf
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 04:47 PM

I enjoyed listening to the program, again it reminded me of what a beautiful singer Joan Baez was and is. Always a class act and I think she stands head and shoulders above Dylan both in her artistry and her integrity. I am not a fan of Bob Dylan although I will concede that he wrote some good songs. Even so, I never understood how he became such an over hyped icon.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 02:09 PM

Well, indeed. Messrs Carthy and Clancy (and others who were there at the time) have always made their own position, best described as dispassionate, quite clear but will those who weren't ever listen?

Had I known it was going to be so historically important I might have taken more notice, but they were just there, doing what everyone else was doing in very exciting times. I don't know how many times, here and elsewhere, I've read accounts of Martin Carthy's litigation. There wasn't any.

Not that all this slagging is new. Back then I sat on the doors of venues taking the entrance money and organisers told me not to let 'that American Bob' or that 'deleted deleted Paul' in for nothing. I ignored them then and I do now.

A friend of mine emailed me today after looking at this thread and remarked that it was unlikely that many of the participants had listened to more than one album between them. Chrome horses, diplomats and Siamese cats: do they know why?

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: Greg B
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 01:50 PM

Wow, I'm glad I listened to the interview rather than relying
on the slanted views published here, particularly by Bill, who
seems to have heard a different programme than I.

Not only does Bill slag Dylan off rather thoroughly, he pretty
well misrepresents Martin's take on the whole thing, which was
presented with far more equanimity and thoughtfulness than was
(mis) represented above.

Having had a couple of conversations with Martin, I found him
to be a keen observer who looks at things rather dispassionately,
so was somewhat surprised and alarmed be the implication that he'd
participated in some sort of Dylan-bashing.

Once I heard the actual piece, I found that he hadn't. His comments
were, however, a keen observation on how this influential artist
had moved from folk icon to pop-star, and how the relationship
between Dylan and Baez played a part in that--- and then how it
played out as a perhaps inevitable result.

I found the radio programme to be interesting, factual, analytical
and non-judgmental.

On the other hand, I think that if one wants to slag off Dylan, one
ought not to try and drag individuals such as Martin Carthy and
Liam Clancy in as unwilling allies by spinning their positions to
one's own purpose. It strikes me as disingenuous.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: GUEST,Gza
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 05:53 PM

People with a need to hate or criticize someone famous (for whatever psychological reason of their own) are always tickled pink when they get more ammo for their guns, so they can take another shot at their chosen target.

"They got a lotta nerve..." ;-D

I note that Ms. Baez, despite her past sufferings dealing with Bob when they were young, generally speaks rather well of him now, and with respect and affection. He speaks well of her too, and with respect and affection. I guess they both learned something after all those years.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: lefthanded guitar
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 05:29 PM

I did not hear the interview, and perhaps I should have mentioned that. Bill, I just took umbrage with the statement that Dylan was a user, when so many other people of ambition are not lambasted so meanly.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: GUEST,Bill
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 05:20 PM

There are none so blind .... Lefthanded guitar sounds like a love sick puppy. Open your eyes and ears. Did you not hear the interview? Well I don't suppose it matters.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: lefthanded guitar
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 02:57 PM

I am a Dylan fan from the time I was barely a teenager. The first album I ever heard by him was Subterranean Homesick Blues. He had already 'turned his back ' on the folk scene but b/c of him, I followed the thread of his older albums and became engaged with folk music for the rest of my life. So even if he 'abandoned' folk music, for a while anyway, he turned thousands (millions?) into fans through his artistic journey.

Dylan is an absolute original who has irrevocably changed the face of popular music - there is no one who has followed Dylan who has not been affected by his unique talent, whether they are aware of it or not. He soaked up every musical influence he could find,which is a hallmark of any innovative artist, and whether he borrowed, bastardized or innovated the songs, they all came out as unmistakeably Dylan.

Over the years, I have heard him badmouthed for how he treated others musicians as he pursued his muse, and put down for his ambition. It seems that we don't put down other popular icons for their rise to the top as harshly, whether it's Elvis, Sinatra, Madonna, etc. To me what really matters is the music and I for one feel a great deal of appreciation for Dylan's unique perspective. Whatever personal imperfections he may have had (and the recent Scorsese film lends great insight into the pressures he had as a performing artist encountering the dark side of fame) - he has been generous and true to the heart with his gift of song. I have never felt he couldn't sing- just that he did so in his own style. But even his detractors have to agree he sure could write. And I agree with Dylan himself when he says he doesn't feel fully responsible for his own creativity, the songs just pour out of him. He is driven by his own creativity, first and foremost.

Dylan is a musical hero who has not faltered from sharing his music directly with his audience , albiet on his own terms more often than not: he has been touring for decades, and his last two recordings are masterpieces.

I don't think Dylan really turned his back on the folk scene, but as Picasso 'graduated' from one artistic phase to another, whether it's a blue painting or cubism- so Dylan just felt compelled to evolve. And those who resented his evolution may just have to 'get out of the way if they can't lend a hand.'

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: GUEST,Bill
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 12:07 PM

TJ got it about right. The radio show with Carthy showed Dylan to be a nasty piece of work who would use everything and anybody, including the folk scene and Carthy, to further his career. As far as him soaking up everything 'like blotting paper' (Carthy), it's the first time I have heard a tape recorded described as blotting paper. His manager, Grossman, paid to have the sessions in the Troubadour taped and this was taken back to his hotel and 'analysed' to see what was nickable.
Liam Clancy pointed out that one of Dylan's songs was actually written to the harmony of a taped song as the microphone was nearer to the harmony singer that the lead singer!!

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 11:33 AM

I saw Dylan in 1962 and marveled that this skinny, weird-looking little Bobby Zimmerman fellow from Hibbing, Minnesota, who couldn't sing a lick, was getting all this hype. He found a great gimmick with which to market himself; the shabby, down-at-the-heels garb and enigmatic and aloof demeanor, not to mention the adopting of Dylan Thomas' first name.

He was, and is, artfully mysterious and reticent. His poetry, in the form of his earliest songs, was markedly off-beat and, at times, beautifully written. But, with rare exceptions, he wasn't really ever a folk singer in the way Joan Baez was. He wasn't interpreting Child ballads, for example, nor terribly interested in the whole genre, for that matter. He was a composer of songs and a performer who created a gimmick and a persona - and a musical style and lyrics that resonated with young people at the onset of a time of social change in America. Whether he was actually instrumental in fueling that change, or merely pandering to a trend he foresaw is arguable.

As to comparisons with Baez, I have to say it is an "apples and oranges" argument. I have liked, and even performed, a few of his songs. I have never been an admirer, but have to give him his due for hanging around this long and influencing so many.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: KeithofChester
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 10:23 AM

That is another very nice song she wrote about him.

There was a lot (necessarily) missed out in that 25 minutes.

One of the better tales I know is of Bob asking Joan to "play the one about me" (meaning Diamonds & Rust) during The Rolling Thunder Revue tour and her teasing him and saying "Oh you mean the one I wrote about my husband".

You only have to see Renaldo & Clara to observe that even 10 years later there remained lots of complexities in the Bob-Joan relationship. Not that it is exactly easy to lay your hands on a copy of Renaldo & Clara since Bob locked it up in the safe again after its very brief outing in the cinemas, but recorded-off- TV versions are around and several bits of it were out there on YouTube last time I looked.

I love that she normally now ends D&R "If you are offering me diamonds and rust, I'll take the diamonds" rather than its older, bleaker and bitter ending. But now it says 40 years and not 10 too, and time (sometimes) is a great healer.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: Vixen
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 09:27 AM

I listened to the replay...very interesting stuff. Thanks to Folkiedave and Giok for posting the info.

I was surprised that the following wasn't mentioned. It had some popularity here in the states back in the 70's.

TO BOBBY
(Words and Music by Joan Baez)

I'll put flowers at your feet and I will sing to you so sweet
And hope my words will carry home to your heart
You left us marching on the road and said how heavy was the load
The years were young, the struggle barely had its start
Do you hear the voices in the night, Bobby?
They're crying for you
See the children in the morning light, Bobby
They're dying

No one could say it like you said it, we'd only try and just forget it
You stood alone upon the mountain till it was sinking
And in a frenzy we tried to reach you
With looks and letters we would beseech you
Never knowing what, where or how you were thinking
Do you hear the voices in the night, Bobby?
They're crying for you
See the children in the morning light, Bobby
They're dying

Perhaps the pictures in the Times could no longer be put in rhymes
When all the eyes of starving children are wide open
You cast aside the cursed crown and put your magic into a sound
That made me think your heart was aching or even broken
But if God hears my complaint He will forgive you
And so will I, with all respect, I'll just relive you
And likewise, you must understand these things we give you

Like these flowers at your door and scribbled notes about the war
We're only saying the time is short and there is work to do
And we're still marching in the streets with little victories and big defeats
But there is joy and there is hope and there's a place for you
And you have heard the voices in the night, Bobby
They're crying for you
See the children in the morning light, Bobby
They're dying

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:36 PM

Thankyou.,it was worth it, to hear Joan Baez singing Diamonds and Rust.

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: KeithofChester
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 12:30 PM

Joan's autobiography And A Voice to Sing With explains her take on the personal and professional relationship pretty well. Bob probably said as much as he ever has in prose about it in the No Direction Home documentary.

And A Voice to Sing With is an extremely good read. Out of print of course, like so much good stuff, but there again that is what second hand shops are for.

I see the BBC have got Sean Penn to read their abridged version of Dylan's Chronicles. Bob was obviously too busy recording radio shows...

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 12:08 PM

I caught thr back end of it. thanks 4 reminding me.

Paul simon when he was in the uk - tonite @ 10.30 bbc r2

Subject: RE: Carthy Discusses Dylan
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 11:22 AM

Thanks very much to you both for bringing this to my attention and facilitating my listening

al