Why aren't the Corries taken seriously

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 05:32 AM

I think it was the leather waistcoat things they wore, which was strangely at variance with the nylon strung guitars sound.

A couple of chunky butch Scottish blokes, dressed in leather and with apparently the same target audience as The Spinners.

They had the misfortune to be around at a time when the generation war was at fever pitch, and they were a part of television schedules that your parents were locked into.

Much of the music is great. But we all have a historical context to live in. they made the deals they felt were of best advantage to their music - as we all do. it's tough getting it right.

I remember reading an interview a few years ago with the great Johnny MacEvoy. The interviewer was asking why his career hadn't gone as well and his back catalogue was in the two quid budget range, whilst people are knocking each other down to pay ten quid and over for Christy Moore stuff. I think Johnny put it down to bad decisions.

You could ask a similar question about The Corries and say Martin Carthy. Of course with The Corries illness and death intervened and played its part.

I think civilians would be surprised at how much work most artists have to put in to promote their work. Unless you're Elvis or The Beatles and there is a mini army of publicists keeping the legend industry going. One's death usually means the end of that effort, and a few folks will remember you, but I guess before the month's out the phone will stop ringing.

anyway that's my guess

Big al whittle

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: DonMeixner
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 10:04 AM

As a Yank we saw little or nothing of the Corries on this side of the water. That which we did get was repackaged for the heavier card board sleeves that US LPs usually had. And when that was done the cover photos where re-shot as well. Most LP's were stuffed away in the International Bin at music shops. Most US record jobbers thought SCotts music was just pipe bands.   We also never saw them on the tube until the advent of the concert Videos that became available at Scottish Games or from the big Book Houses like Barnes and Noble.

Most people here only ever saw the two Corrie Folk Trio and Paddie Bell releases from Electra in the mid 60's. These covers had the usual Arran Isle sweater look of the time. (Thank you Clancy's.)

In effect we didn't see them, we just heard them. WE never saw what the wore. I must say I prefered the Trio and Bell sound to the Duo but the Duo to my way of listening couldn't have been better. I can't think of a Duo that gets more pure sound and power out of voices and two instruments as The Corries did.

I think it boils down to that "just the right mix" thing. Roys often brilliant playing and at times spectacular voice. And Ronnie's just always amazing voice and entirely adequate playing. Each ability balanced the other. I think it alittle unfair to compare The Corries to any group larger than they were. Especially in live performance. I had a friend say they were no Steel Eye Span or Fairport Convention which makes no sense. By weight of numbers alone those other groups were dynamic. But it was apples and oranges after all

The Corries packaged themselves to sell in a limited market. Which, marketing we must remember, is the name of the game. It makes no sense or cents to record a mess of LPs only to have them as beer coasters in your retirement. For me the Corries did the job well. And then as introductions to a more traditional sound and a broader musical canon the Corries were just right as I think about it here 35 years later.   

Don

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Diva
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 04:25 PM

Short answer..dunno However, they were most punters first real live experience of folk music. I have a friend who gave them songs rather than give them to the School of Scottish Studies because the songswould be sung

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: GUEST,Len Wallace
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 11:40 PM

Why aren't The Corries taken seriously?

Hmm...I did and still do. As for others, I have several theories:

1) The Personal Theory. Years ago many of us had our first exposure to Irish and Scottish acoustic folk from the likes of performers such as the Clancy Brothers, The Dubliners and The Corries. And, you know, wihout them as a link to those songs many of those old songs would have been lost. They provided an essential link. Enter the "folk nazis" who question the purity of the tradition. "This is not AUTHENTIC!", they claim. They are partly responsible;

2) The Corries also come from a nationalist Scottish tradition that harkens back to the sixties. In their attempt to resurrect national feeling the emphasis was on an almost uncritical nationalism. Thus the ringing songs about the Bonnie Prince Charlie, King James, etc. Later folksingers such as Gaughan, Hamish Henderson took a more critical nationslist-Left approach emphasising social class, the working class and were critical of the higher ups (case in point, such songs as Henderson's "No Gods and Precious Few Heroes" and "Freedom Come All Ye". So, the Corries represent a certain time period of rising nationalism.

I perform many of the songs saved/performed/developed by The Corries. Then I folow them with one of Henderson's songs to try and put Scottish history into perspective.

Len Wallace

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Sep 05 - 11:57 PM

Fair enough as far as it goes. But please don't trot out that stupid "folk nazi" rubbish. If, as I suspect, you are old enough to remember the real nazis, you really ought to know better than to use such loaded, and entirely inappropriate, terms.

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 12:13 AM

"folk nazi" rubbish

hmmmm.. just a quickie before i go to bed..


ok.. so how about instead


"folk intelligentsia"
"folk pedants"
"folk supercilious twats"
"real folkie patronising ego wankers"
"errrmm...sorry.. what was that.. must have nodded off...yes of couse.. whatever.. i'll just agree for a quiet life.. folk thought & word police"


g'night..

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: DonMeixner
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 12:26 AM

I lean toward the term The Folk Snobs myself.

Don

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 04:03 AM

Vee haf annexed der corries , but zis is mein last territorial claim!

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Big Phil
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 07:32 PM

Having purchased probably near every LP [that dates me doesn't it]that the DUBS recorded, I had the joy of being in Luke's company in Sheffield, when they used to play the FIESTA nightclub, and over the road, the CRUCIBLE THEATRE, My point being, talking to Luke about Sheffield and the Fans who followed them, he told me, when we play at the Fiesta it is purely commercialism, when we play the Crucible it is ART. Perhaps the Corries had the same ethos, and played to the audience assembled before them.

Phil*

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 08:14 PM

Boab, no accounting for taste is there? Sorry but I still like "Lochnagar".
TB

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Effsee
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 09:17 PM

Len Wallace, "No Gods, and precious few heroes" is a Brian McNeil song, and nothing to do with either Hamish Henderson or the Corries.

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Effsee
Date: 30 Sep 05 - 09:36 PM

Len Wallace, having re-read your post, Hamish Henderson was later than the Corries? Jeeze, that just about sums up your knowledge of Scottish Folk Music!

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 01:28 AM

Effsee---I can't read anything in Len's posting which tries definitely to put Hamish inany particular chronological position relative to the Corries. I think, in fact he did outlive the Corries in the sense that he was still around after Roy died--any correction on that?
Aye, Tattie Bogle, tastes do differ; and believe me, I do not try to belittle your opinion of the Corries "Dark Lochnagar". The Corries undeniably tinkered with melodies, phrasing,and in some instances even lyrics to put their entertainment across. I am no "stick-in-the-mud;where in my view [or to my taste] they actually improved the piece, I was all for it.

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 04:31 AM

Stage Manager _


allow them to do a Full Monty review

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 08:32 AM

Boab - Len DID say "later folksingers such as Gaughan, Hamish Henderson" which made me, too, wonder a bit.

On the other hand, "No Gods and Precious Few Heroes" has a connection with Hamish Henderson: Brian lifted it from his 'Elegies for the Dead of Cyrenaika', first elegy: 'End of a Campaign', as acknowledged in Brian's songbook.

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Effsee
Date: 01 Oct 05 - 07:16 PM

You're absolutely right Susanne, and I sit corrected, but Len's post implied that it was a H.H. song. Not so.

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 02 Oct 05 - 09:37 AM

Effsee, you're certainly right in that, and you beat me to correcting it :-).

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: GUEST,Joani
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 02:22 PM

Weren't the Corries anti-semitic, singing about "wee fat Jews" ?I thought they were the BEST until I head that, and now can barely listen to them. I know MANY others who agree. How sad!!!!

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: GUEST,johnmc
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 02:44 PM

As a long time fan, I confess I am unaware of such a remark in their repertoire.
Could you be more specific ?

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: BTNG
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 02:54 PM

Before the politically correct really get their knickers in a knot, let's put the line into it's proper context. I t comes from a piss take of Scotland The Brave, so if for example, you're an Elton John or Rolling Stones fan, you're also going to be offended by this song..Time to get a sense of humour I think...eh ...?

The Corries - Scotland The Brave

Land o' the purple heather.
Land o' the dirty weather.
Land where the midges gaither, Scotland the Brave.
Land o' the Pakistanis,
Andy Capp and Saturday sannies.
Land where they sell their grannies, Scotland the Brave.

Used to say in faither's day,
You could hear the bagpipes play,
But now you hear the regal tones o' Elton John and The Rolling Stones.
Land that is full o' stinkers,
Wee fat Jews and VP drinkers.
Whisky put a lot o' stinkers, into Scottish graves.

Land that is full o' skivers,
Comic singers, deep sea divers,
Turbans on our bus condrivers, Scotland the Brave.
Land o' the brutal Bobbies,
Councillers wi' part-time jobbies,
Architects wi' paying hobbies, Scotland the Brave.

The tourists come here every year
To see all our historic gear,
But all they see is loads o' navvies, high rise flats wi' concrete lavvies.
Land o' the artic' lorries,
Andy Stewart and ra Corries,
Land where everybody borries, Scotland the Brave.

Land o' the Kilt and Sporran -
Underneath, there's nothin' worn!
How I wish the wind was warm! Scotland the Brave.
I must admit it's pretty gruesome,
Walking about wi' your frozen twosome!
It's all we've got - we musn't lose 'em - Scotland the Brave.

Conservatives try to assure us,
Labour's hard-put to endure us,
The Kirk puts curbs on our enjoyment, Government makes unemployment.
Never mind - the day is near,
When independence will be here!
We'll drink a toast in Younger's beer to Scotland the Brave

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Reinhard
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 03:27 PM

I wonder how shallow someone must be that a short phrase from a parody taken out of context makes them from "the best" to "can barely listen to".

johnmc, according to Wikipedia, the song in question seems to be the Corries's parody of Scotland the Brave. In it they cite a kitchen sink full of prejudices, the jews just one of dozens of others.

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: GUEST,johnmc
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 03:33 PM

Well, now I know. The unfortunate thing about this is that, while all the other faux racist remarks do make me smile, the phrase in question seems devoid of wit. However, I'll remain a fan, as will most, I'm sure.

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: stallion
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 03:56 PM

Just heard a tape from mike harding in the 1970's, now he probably would cringe at language he was using, similiar vintage, different world now, we all fall into the trap of making judgement on events and people with our 21st century goggles, we live in a more enlightened or sensative world now and had they been performing today they probably, no, certainly, wouldn't have written those words to the song. It was how it was then, be thankful it isn't now. And be a little more forgiving thats how we progress as a society.

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 06:10 PM

It makes no more sense to castigate the Corries for lyrics written all these years ago than it does to purse the lips about the Fawlty Towers episode where the Major describes the difference between wogs and niggers.

No, it wouldn't happen nowadays, but that was then, and now is now.

btw I loved Don Meixner's line "It makes no sense or cents to record a mess of LPs only to have them as beer coasters in your retirement"

So true.

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: GUEST,EAMON O'MARA
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 11:51 AM

Many years later. Does it all matter? I have lived and worked in ten different countries. I play Irish music, but I will play any song--Christian,Muslim,Hindu--that I happen to like. In this desperate, disparate world music is one thing we can all share. Let us share.   e.

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: rich-joy
Date: 09 Aug 18 - 07:42 PM

Just came across this Corries article (with an emphasis on Roy's lifestory):

https://senscot.net/true-story-of-man-behind-the-corries/

Here is an excerpt :

" ... Besides ditching the day jobs, Williamson and Browne resolved to abandon the time-consuming trips to folk clubs and instead organise and run their own concert tours. With no middle men the cake was divided into three enticingly large slices: one for each musician and the third for expenses.

As a business model and an artistic venture it was outstandingly successful. Browne, assisted by his wife, Pat, an accountant, took care of the business side, while Williamson, the more gifted player, looked after the music. Browne, by his own admission, could barely strum a guitar before he joined The Corries, but he was willing to learn and his singing voice complemented his partner’s.

The duo’s concerts could give the impression of being couthy and off-the-cuff, but the reality was entirely different. Rehearsals were meticulous and nothing was left to chance. The pair were the ultimate professionals and their audiences loved them, buying records, tapes and CDs and other merchandise in huge quantities at the shows. Yet, just as Williamson’s relationship with his mother was fractious, so too it could be with Browne. If they weren’t on a par with Noel and Liam Gallagher, they had their moments... "


Cheers, R-J
(who will admit to liking some of their material AND learning some of their harmonies, LOL!)

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 18 - 07:56 PM

wonderful article. well done finding it.

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Allan Conn
Date: 13 Aug 18 - 07:44 AM

(who will admit to liking some of their material AND learning some of their harmonies, LOL!)

To tell you the truth I was a teenager in the late 70s and was in a punk rock band. All my mates were in to punk etc but we also listened to The Corries. I never missed their TV programmes. They were regarded as quite cool even by youngsters and many Scottish people (outside the real folk circles) got to know many of these songs through the versions by The Corries and their versions are still loved by many. I too have seen them criticised but all these years later I still get asked to sing a "Corries song" when the person actually means a "Scottish folk song". So the people who matter - their audience - certainly do remember them fondly. For me I am not a great lover of too many comic songs anyway so if I was making up a Corries playlist it would be unlikely to include any of their comic songs and yes this one in question is hopelessly dated and not acceptable now. However their Killiecrankie, Wild Mountain Thyme, Dark Lochnagar, Annie Laurie etc take some beating. For me anyway!

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 13 Aug 18 - 08:20 AM

"Why weren't the Corries taken seriously?"
Very simple, because they were very popular......the great unwashed loved them because they entertained.....and the snobs who comprise much of the folk music scene could not bear to share their tastes!!!

It's much worse today though, most of the stuff produced today, can be tholled only by the deeply initiated.

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Johnny J
Date: 13 Aug 18 - 08:28 AM

The Corries themselves were fine but it was all "the clones" which were on the go at the time and the often extremely "in your face" aggressive Jacobite performers which passed for pub folk performers back then which became a bit too much.

It's not any better now, of course, as dreich "singer songwriters" and second rate Americana/Country singers have taken their place.

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 13 Aug 18 - 08:30 AM

My only complaint about them was that they recorded Cyril Tawney's great song 'The Grey Funnel Line ' and re-named it ' The Bona Line ' and gave no credit to Cyril, unforgiveable.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: GUEST,Ake
Date: 13 Aug 18 - 08:39 AM

Ah Cyril Tawney......"The Oggie Man" was my introduction to recorded folk music.....If I remember it was sung to the Johny Mathis tune ..."The twelth of never"......took this then young man a while to understand what it was all about.....RIP Cyril, simply one of the best.

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 18 - 08:44 AM

"My only complaint about them was that they recorded Cyril Tawney's great song 'The Grey Funnel Line ' and re-named it ' The Bona Line ' and gave no credit to Cyril, unforgiveable."

Yeah, I've often wondered why they did that, since the notes on their CDs and records are normally quite good about crediting people. Could it have been to do with the way Roy Williamson learnt songs? He couldn't read music as a child, and I don't know to what extent he learnt as an adult. If he heard it sung in a pub, "Bona Line" may gave been a Mondegreen for "Grey Funnel Line" and he may have been introduced to it as if it were a traditional song of unknown provenance.

Pity, because I like the way Roy sings the song very much.

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 13 Aug 18 - 12:03 PM

At the time of their popularity, hey were taken very seriously by the population in Scotland in general, but not by "the folk scene", for the very reasons set out by "Akenaton". This is Scotland - you're not allowed to be successful.

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 13 Aug 18 - 02:06 PM

The one that surprised me, when I heard other versions in slow 3/4 time, was "The Rose of Allandale" - seems everyone in Scotland who does it, gives it that rousing 4/4 march tempo, which I guess, came from their version. Have to say I much prefer the slow 3/4 (e.g. check out the Watersons).
But no doubting their popularity which has led to various people doing cover versions, including "The Sorries" who appear at Edinburgh Festival Fringe regularly, and do a fair job of it

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: StephenH
Date: 13 Aug 18 - 02:57 PM

Well, they always appealed to me, even admitting that I found them verging on the cute once in a while. On the other hand, I love their renditions of "The Roving Journeyman" using full matchboxes as percussion, or "I Will Go" using the twin bodhran accompaniment.
I thought the combination of the bodhran and what's listed on the lp as a '28-string guitar' on "Kishmul's Galley" gave the song a certain majesty, and their version of Robin Willimason's "October Song" remains an absolute favourite of mine.
I never regretted purchasing the half-dozen of their lps still in my
possession.

Subject: RE: Why aren't the Corries taken seriously
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 13 Aug 18 - 03:06 PM

When i performed the Rose of Allandale at a well known folk club i was asked if it was based on the Corries version to which i replied "no its the brass band version"
This excuse has been used many times when i use the "folk process" and do something slightly differntly from other "Folks"
If anyone else uses tis excuse Ill know where they got it from.

Being from the Edinburgh area with its many military connections I would imagine one of the Corries would have heard it played by pipe, brass or military band in march time and found that "arrangement" more to their style, the sheet music arrangement I have is in 4/4 time and to the melody used by the Corries